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(Talking Points Memo)   Governor Scott Walker caught on video telling a billionaire benefactor how he plans to crush the unions and turn Wisconsin into a right-to-work state. Not that billionaire. Or that one. Another one   (2012.talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Wisconsin, industrial district, rollbacks, Journal Sentinel, unions, English-speaking countries, red states  
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13828 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 May 2012 at 9:39 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-11 10:26:49 AM  

Leeds: I'd kill to live in a right to work state.


Time to get yourself some bootstraps, then, and go to one.
 
2012-05-11 10:27:12 AM  

Leeds: I accept your terms. :)

Cheers.

// Hug


Yay!
 
2012-05-11 10:27:17 AM  

LineNoise: I think the average person would be far better off negotiating their own terms of employment, and having the freedom that comes with it.


The average person, on their own, is not in a position to negotiate much of anything. This is especially prevalent when unemployment is high. The exception being a small portion of us that have very high-end skills that are in high demand. Most unionized places were unionized as a result of management refusing to treat people in a fair manner. I've worked at a place that a union wanted into, and they were sent packing because the employer was fair on their own.

LineNoise: I also think dropping the forced bloat of a union would make the companies they work for more profitable, which would help ensure the workers more mobility and rewards.


If the workers were more mobile and received greater rewards without a union present, then how can unions exist at all? To become unionized the workers have to decide to unionize. Why would they do that if they were getting the better deal without a union?
 
2012-05-11 10:27:20 AM  
Falk Wucker

/embarrassed by my home state
 
2012-05-11 10:27:26 AM  

Forgot_my_password_again: Scerpes: So why would I even want to consider building a factory in a "CBS"?

better infrastructure, supply chain, better educated workers, tax breaks...

Oh but you're a "wages only matter" kinda guy.


Sure...if that actually exists, and assuming you can't bring in the educated employees that you need. However, there's no guarantee that a "CBS" provides any of those things that you mentioned. All things being equal, employers will relocate to right-to-work states first.
 
2012-05-11 10:27:29 AM  
yves0010
Yes it does. My brother and sister in law are part of a Union and make a little more money then they did when they were not part of it. Yet, they are making the same amount in the long run due to having to pay to be apart of the union.

So they're effectively getting the backing of an organization that will provide them legal and solidarity assistance, for free? Sounds like a good deal.


markfara
Me, too. But I think being forced to take a $0.75 an hour job with no benefits might bother me more. And don't kid yourself, in a true "free market" that's exactly what we'd get.

But you'd have the convenience of not having to worry about where to shop- you can find anything at the company store!


chasd00
Oh and you could probably argue that book was more about a world without the EPA and OSHA not unions.

It was supposed to be a book about a world without unions. But then middle-class white people read it and were more outraged about what they might be eating than about how their fellow human beings were living.


Mentat
And you won't be able to do anything about it because you signed your rights away.

Sometimes I wish Wisconsin was right-to-work(-for-less), just so people would have to have a crash course in REAL organization. The unions came into existance in harsher conditions than that. The fact remains that the real bargaining power the workers always have is the power to strike, legally-sanctioned or not.


Tumunga
He said he'd kill to do it. Are you volunteering, Mr. Martyr?

Right- he'd kill for it, but he wouldn't move for it.


Dheiner
You'll find that most Wisconsin voters happen to agree with Walker.

A majority of the State Supreme Court is pro-fascist, and the GAB is a pack of spineless worms. "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything."
 
2012-05-11 10:27:50 AM  

Havokmon: Weaver95: Havokmon:

Unions, GTFO.

so, do you consider being looted and pillaged by a corporation to be exciting? does being the victim of corporate malfeasance make you somehow morally stronger than being protected by a union rep?

You're looted and pillaged by your employer? Get a spine and negotiate for yourself.
I'm only looted and pillaged by the government.


But what happens when the government IS your employer?

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

Also lol union bashers.
 
2012-05-11 10:28:02 AM  

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: Leeds: I accept your terms. :)

Cheers.

// Hug

Yay!


You guys should join a civil union
 
2012-05-11 10:28:05 AM  

beefoe: Also to magnify this point:

Average Teacher Salary Rank: 20th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 49th

Typical union BS. Let's negotiate a contract to reward our older members at the expense of anyone starting out. Nice!


Yeah, I've never heard of someone in a private company for 20 years earning more than someone that just started. Those unions are crazy!
 
2012-05-11 10:28:05 AM  

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: See, now, here's my question: how feasible is it to win a wrongful termination suit? I ask that because it's certainly possible to claim somebody was fired for failing to meet their deadlines. Which is true. Because said deadlines were insane. So how does one get around that catch-22?


Because typically there is a paper trail or other witnesses.

If somebody has had good reviews for 3 years and then gets fired for job performance, they'll win a suit/settlement almost every time
 
2012-05-11 10:28:21 AM  
Back to the video at hand...

Were Walker and Hendricks videotaped without their knowledge and permission? Of course not. Hendricks introduces Lichtenstein to Walker. Below is the text of that part of the conversation.

Hendricks: - some issues we're just going to avoid a little bit. And by the way, this is Brad and he is part of Rock County 5.0 and he has been filming everything.

Brad Lichtenstein: I've been doing a documentary -

Walker: Oh, cool.

Hendricks: - so what we're going to do and talk about right now is just concerns that Mary (Willmer-Sheedy) and I have that we probably, are a little controversial to bring up upstairs. OK? I don't want to - because there's press up there.

Walker: OK, sure.

Lichtenstein: Just so you know, nothing I do is going to see the light of day for over another year.

Walker: OK, that's fine.

His divide and conquer plan has been known by those who pay attention. But those who haven't been paying attention or just simply turn a blind eye and vote republican because that's what a good supporter does while earning below what they're worth - this is where the video should have the most impact, but it won't. People are tools and don't know when they're being taken advantage of.
 
2012-05-11 10:29:01 AM  

someonelse: kasmel: I support workers rights, including the right to form unions and bargain collectively, but it seems that too many people are unwilling to admit that unions have flaws that get exploited and that it's not a perfect solution.

People in Wisconsin generally realized this, yet they still understand that Walker tried to fix the problem with a sledgehammer when a flathead screwdriver was called for.


What was the problem in WI with the public unions? You realize the unions agreed to all financial concessions that were being asked for before Walker and the GOP stripped their rights, correct?
 
2012-05-11 10:29:27 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: beefoe: Also to magnify this point:

Average Teacher Salary Rank: 20th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 49th

Typical union BS. Let's negotiate a contract to reward our older members at the expense of anyone starting out. Nice!

Yeah, I've never heard of someone in a private company for 20 years earning more than someone that just started. Those unions are crazy!


I don't think that is what that stat says
 
2012-05-11 10:30:13 AM  

MugzyBrown: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: See, now, here's my question: how feasible is it to win a wrongful termination suit? I ask that because it's certainly possible to claim somebody was fired for failing to meet their deadlines. Which is true. Because said deadlines were insane. So how does one get around that catch-22?

Because typically there is a paper trail or other witnesses.

If somebody has had good reviews for 3 years and then gets fired for job performance, they'll win a suit/settlement almost every time


I'll take your word for it, but it sure doesn't seem that way. Around here, it seems worker protections are pretty week. I'm gonna just say "okay," accept your answer and back out of this thread though, I'm way too hotheaded at the moment. So, peace, love and blessings etc etc, I gotta bail.
 
2012-05-11 10:30:53 AM  
OMGosh !! A free-market republican is behaving like a free-market republican!!

newsflah-- unions are bad for business, unless you are in the union business.
--right to work states are better off economically then the rotting, stagnant union states.
--if you want to see how unions benefit an economy, go look at Detroit, or Cleveland.
 
2012-05-11 10:30:58 AM  

MugzyBrown: Scerpes: In most states, you can be fired at any time, for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all, provided you don't have a labor contract. You only can't be fired for an unlawful reason. biatching about deadlines is hardly an unlawful reason

I see the claims. Many of my clients are PEO agencies and Staffing agencies.

Employment Practices claims (including wrongful termination) are killing the job market.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't PA an employment-at-will state? There is no wrongful termination statute, is there? All employees can do is allege discrimination, etc.
 
2012-05-11 10:31:14 AM  

Wendy's Chili: Havokmon: Tell us about the time your company had to make cut backs and actually gave you an option to be fired or make less. THAT is definitely an advantage of being a part of a Union, but you can't choose to be fired and then biatch about it.

Really?

Your boss makes you choose between a pay cut or your job and you're supposed to happy about it?

Why don't you bootstrap yourself up enough cash to hire a dominatrix instead of voting your masochism onto the rest of the state?

Bootlicker.


You seem to be confused between not being happy about a crappy option, and lynching the boss because the option was presented and you refused to even acknowledge it. Ignoring the core problem in favor of themselves is what the Unions do, hence my original statement.

I also think the same of 99% of all politicians, but that's another thread.
 
2012-05-11 10:31:32 AM  

beefoe: Also to magnify this point:

Average Teacher Salary Rank: 20th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 49th

Typical union BS. Let's negotiate a contract to reward our older members at the expense of anyone starting out. Nice!


Funny, I could have sworn that more senior workers get paid more in pretty much every business anywhere, unionized or not.
 
2012-05-11 10:31:39 AM  

thrgd456: newsflah-- unions are bad for business, unless you are in the union business.


This is, indeed, a "newsflah".
 
2012-05-11 10:31:49 AM  

Havokmon: I live in Waukesha. I grew up here. The teachers in WI need to pay 'their fair share'. And shame on Milwaukee county teacher's union who voted for LESS teachers instead of LESS benefits for themselves.Unions, GTFO.


Maybe if you had spent a little more time paying attention to those teachers instead of being angry at the unions you would have learned that it's FEWER teachers and FEWER benefits. Fewer is used when the item you are describing can be counted--assuming you can count higher than potato, of course.
 
2012-05-11 10:31:51 AM  
How dare skilled workers think they should have the right to assemble and collectively bargain?
 
2012-05-11 10:32:20 AM  

thrgd456: OMGosh !! A free-market republican is behaving like a free-market republican!!

newsflah-- unions are bad for business, unless you are in the union business.
--right to work states are better off economically then the rotting, stagnant union states.
--if you want to see how unions benefit an economy, go look at Detroit, or Cleveland.


Government of business, by business, for business!
 
2012-05-11 10:32:21 AM  

Leeds: I'm sorry that you were not blessed with an intellect worthy of commanding a higher salary.


Thank goodness we live in this amazing meritocracy where those of us blessed with truly outstanding intellect can command truly outstanding salaries.

photos-2.posh24.com
 
2012-05-11 10:33:01 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: someonelse: kasmel: I support workers rights, including the right to form unions and bargain collectively, but it seems that too many people are unwilling to admit that unions have flaws that get exploited and that it's not a perfect solution.

People in Wisconsin generally realized this, yet they still understand that Walker tried to fix the problem with a sledgehammer when a flathead screwdriver was called for.

What was the problem in WI with the public unions? You realize the unions agreed to all financial concessions that were being asked for before Walker and the GOP stripped their rights, correct?


And do you realize that the unions you are speaking of were (the largest but) only 2 or 3 out of thousands of public sector unions in the state? 98% of which would not be held to the terms hammered out by the main unions...
 
2012-05-11 10:33:13 AM  

muchgoodmojo: So, what is wrong with a state going for a right to work scenario? If you want to be in a union fine; but if I choose to not be in the union I should be able to make that choice freely. Closed shops are for the birds.

I have been in a union a couple of times but ultimately left because there was no real personal growth room. Income was fixed by contract agreement, layoffs / promotions were by seniority and not ability, giving a schmuck in a suit part of my pay irked me, and the list goes on. I prefer to control my own destiny and I did far better in my career aspirations after I began avoiding union jobs.


Unions essentially ate lawyers for the workers. They insure that there rules for how things like discipline are handled and that they are followed. They also negotiate pay and benefits, as opposed to every employee having to do so on his own.

Decline union membership, you still get,all the benefits in salary, health care etc. How is that fair to those who paid dues so these benefits could be negotiated? The employees as a group decided at one point they wanted a union to represent their interests. Don't like it? Work somewhere else where you can beg for a raise and watch the manager promote their less qualified nephew ahead of you. Unions are by no means perfect, but it beats the alternative.

If you've done better on your own, great for you and I mean that sincerely. But don't knock the rest of us for wanting experts to handle labor relations.
 
2012-05-11 10:33:14 AM  
"Right to Work" legislation gives unions the opportunity to be a choice, rather than a compulsion. Why would anyone be against that? Or are unions admitting that, given a choice, most workers would not elect to join one?
 
2012-05-11 10:33:24 AM  

LineNoise: AuBricker: LineNoise: Good. Why anyone would want to be forced into a union is beyond me. You do realize it doesn't ban unions, right?

The corporations that want to slash your wages appreciate your support.

Unfortunately, their gratitude will not prevent them from shipping your job to third-world sweatshop if it will add one nickel to their profits.

You know how I avoid that? By not limiting my skills to what can be done in a third world sweatshop.



Ahh so you work at a Starbucks.

Smart move. The only jobs that can't be shipped overseas are service industry jobs.
 
2012-05-11 10:33:54 AM  

MugzyBrown: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: See, now, here's my question: how feasible is it to win a wrongful termination suit? I ask that because it's certainly possible to claim somebody was fired for failing to meet their deadlines. Which is true. Because said deadlines were insane. So how does one get around that catch-22?

Because typically there is a paper trail or other witnesses.

If somebody has had good reviews for 3 years and then gets fired for job performance, they'll win a suit/settlement almost every time


They'll get a settlement if it's cheaper to pay them off than it is it litigate their shiatty claim. Maybe your state is different, but if you've got good reviews for 3 years and then your performance stinks, I can fire your ass and there's not much you can do about it provided that I haven't treated other individuals outside of your protected class differently.
 
2012-05-11 10:33:56 AM  

Havokmon: Ignoring the core problem in favor of themselves is what the Unions executives do, hence my original statement.


See Dimon, Jamie.
 
2012-05-11 10:34:29 AM  

chasd00: Don't Troll Me Bro!: (∃x∈S:φ(x))→(∀x∈S:φ(x))

-1brazillion for trying to impress people with your predicate logic skills that, in reality, farkers could not care less about. you egomaniacs give the rest of us a bad name.


As a math/CS major, I appreciated it.

/shrug
 
2012-05-11 10:34:54 AM  

Leeds: Tumunga: Aarontology: Leeds: I'd kill to live in a right to work state.

Then move to one, slackass.

He said he'd kill to do it. Are you volunteering, Mr. Martyr?

Truth be told I doubt very much that offing one solitary commie will swing the vote one way or another.


Good one, sir!
 
2012-05-11 10:35:01 AM  

skullkrusher: Anyway, government shouldn't be a closed shop. You should not have to join a union to work for the government for any job. That said, there is absolutely no reason why the government should be outlawing exclusivity contracts between private employers and unions. Stop interfering in the free market, free marketeers!


Government jobs are debatable. Sometimes they go way too far, other times it's the only thing that will prevent someone like Walker from essentially handing the reigns of state over to billionaires like the Koch brothers for their sole benefit at the expense of the people of Wisconsin.

But in the private sector, you're absolutely right. The labor market is like any other market. A Union is merely a the worker version of a corporation. Just as corporations exist to protect and promote the interest of the shareholders, a union exists to protect and promote the interest of the workers.
 
2012-05-11 10:35:14 AM  

domenad: "Right to Work" legislation gives unions the opportunity to be a choice, rather than a compulsion. Why would anyone be against that? Or are unions admitting that, given a choice, most workers would not elect to join one?


Because the Union shouldn't have to protect workers who don't pay dues, yet in right to work states they have to.
 
2012-05-11 10:35:41 AM  

Leeds: And do you realize that the unions you are speaking of were (the largest but) only 2 or 3 out of thousands of public sector unions in the state? 98% of which would not be held to the terms hammered out by the main unions...


[citation needed, but will never be provided because this is a Republican "fact"]

/the GOP boogeyman will send us back to company scrip
 
2012-05-11 10:36:14 AM  

thrgd456: newsflah-- unions are bad for business, unless you are in the union business.


German autoworkers, nearly all of which are unionized, get paid twice as much as their American counterparts and yet as if by magic BMW, Daimler, and Volkswagen are quite profitable.
 
2012-05-11 10:36:27 AM  

Edsel: beefoe: Also to magnify this point:

Average Teacher Salary Rank: 20th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 49th

Typical union BS. Let's negotiate a contract to reward our older members at the expense of anyone starting out. Nice!

Funny, I could have sworn that more senior workers get paid more in pretty much every business anywhere, unionized or not.


Yeah, but sometimes those pay scales really get manipulated. I'm familiar with a school district here where the pay steps are a few hundred dollars at the low end of the scale, but jump to several thousand dollars a year after you reach 25-30 years.
 
2012-05-11 10:36:29 AM  
Side topic, but what is the deal with the term "right to work?" When I hear that, I hear that employment is a right and that every citizen deserves employment. And because of this, employers cannot fire without good cause. A better term for this would be 'privilege to work' or 'right to fire.'
 
2012-05-11 10:36:36 AM  

Scerpes: MugzyBrown: Scerpes: In most states, you can be fired at any time, for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all, provided you don't have a labor contract. You only can't be fired for an unlawful reason. biatching about deadlines is hardly an unlawful reason

I see the claims. Many of my clients are PEO agencies and Staffing agencies.

Employment Practices claims (including wrongful termination) are killing the job market.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't PA an employment-at-will state? There is no wrongful termination statute, is there? All employees can do is allege discrimination, etc.


PA is a Forced Unionism state. I know personally. I was forced into a union back in '98 as a condition of employment. Eventually I worked my way up into management where I was exempt from being in a union.
 
2012-05-11 10:36:53 AM  

Weaver95: MugzyBrown: Weaver95: HotWingConspiracy: He's still going to win. This will not be a clean election.

oh I expect the Wisconsin GOP to cheat like motherfarkers, then to have Prosser rubber stamp the results. 2 weeks after the election is over, we'll find video evidence of Walker personally stuffing ballot boxes while stomping on live kittens and having sex with a dead male prostitute and the GOP will shrug its shoulders and mumble something about all results being final.

Unions have never been known for shady tactics.

so vote Republican?

weak.


Man, it's not worth it anymore. The stooges for corporate capitalism are happy in their false consciousness. Big business loves them, and of they simper and scrape and bow just low enough, maybe these titans of industry will allow them some table scraps.

Unions are all corrupt and ineffecient and after we ended child labor we don't need them any more. Just like how after we ended segregation there are no more issues with systemic racism, and now that women can vote there is no more sexism.
 
2012-05-11 10:37:07 AM  

Electrify: Side topic, but what is the deal with the term "right to work?" When I hear that, I hear that employment is a right and that every citizen deserves employment. And because of this, employers cannot fire without good cause. A better term for this would be 'privilege to work' or 'right to fire.'


Right to work means that you have a right to work without joining the union.
 
2012-05-11 10:37:22 AM  

Tumunga: Leeds: Tumunga: Aarontology: Leeds: I'd kill to live in a right to work state.

Then move to one, slackass.

He said he'd kill to do it. Are you volunteering, Mr. Martyr?

Truth be told I doubt very much that offing one solitary commie will swing the vote one way or another.

Good one, sir!


lofifly.com
 
2012-05-11 10:37:22 AM  

chasd00: Don't Troll Me Bro!: (∃x∈S:φ(x))→(∀x∈S:φ(x))

-1brazillion for trying to impress people with your predicate logic skills that, in reality, farkers could not care less about. you egomaniacs give the rest of us a bad name.


So people could care less whether a conclusion is consistent with the input information? People that do care about these things are egomaniacs? That tells me a lot. -1brazillion for you too.
 
2012-05-11 10:37:54 AM  
The problem with "Right to Work" is that it's semantic BS. It's the same wordplay politicians ALWAYS engage in. Everyone has a right to work, even those in enlightened states like Wisconsin used to be.

"Right to Work" weakens unions to the point of barely being useful. Even in a non-right to work state (like NY) you do not have to join the union, but you are obligated to give a portion to the union because they're the ones who negotiated you a decent reasonable contract where the employer doesn't get to totally screw you over.

A weak union means the employees have little due process. This may not be a big deal on a sales force where sales are easily measurable. On a factory floor where value is less easily parsed out, if some foreman's nephew needs a job, someone who isn't protected by a union can be removed for no other reason. For those of us in the realm of ideas (educators, for example) the politics of the workplace are ridiculous, and being summarily terminated for having a difference of opinion, or for espousing an unpopular view is entirely too possible.

Unions don't protect jobs (when they're performing properly), unions protect due process. If a person needs to be terminated, they will be, but not for some capricious reason having nothing to do with performance and everything to do with personality or nepotism.

I'm as libertarian as they come, but I also recognize that pre-Wagner Act America was quite the difficult place for a significant percentage of Americans to get ahead. Do we really want to go back to an era where women teachers could be fired just for getting married or pregnant? Do we really need to have the Scopes Monkey Trial all over again? Unions protect the weak against the strong. For every egregious story about some simple job costing stupid amounts due to onerous union obligations, there's dozens of people who kept their jobs against unwarranted persecution due to union assistance.
 
2012-05-11 10:38:10 AM  

Leeds: Scerpes: MugzyBrown: Scerpes: In most states, you can be fired at any time, for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all, provided you don't have a labor contract. You only can't be fired for an unlawful reason. biatching about deadlines is hardly an unlawful reason

I see the claims. Many of my clients are PEO agencies and Staffing agencies.

Employment Practices claims (including wrongful termination) are killing the job market.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't PA an employment-at-will state? There is no wrongful termination statute, is there? All employees can do is allege discrimination, etc.

PA is a Forced Unionism state. I know personally. I was forced into a union back in '98 as a condition of employment. Eventually I worked my way up into management where I was exempt from being in a union.


I understand that, but that's different than employment at will. In non-union shops in PA, you can be fired at any time for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all.
 
2012-05-11 10:38:29 AM  

Electrify: Side topic, but what is the deal with the term "right to work?" When I hear that, I hear that employment is a right and that every citizen deserves employment. And because of this, employers cannot fire without good cause. A better term for this would be 'privilege to work' or 'right to fire.'


Orwell had a famous name for it. The sad reality is that you could draft legislation that forces people to eat shiat sandwiches, call it the "You Love Jesus, Don't You???" law, and by the end of the week we'd all be eating shiat sandwiches.
 
2012-05-11 10:38:43 AM  

Aarontology: Government jobs are debatable. Sometimes they go way too far, other times it's the only thing that will prevent someone like Walker from essentially handing the reigns of state over to billionaires like the Koch brothers for their sole benefit at the expense of the people of Wisconsin.


I have no issue with public employee unions. I just don't think that the government should be in exclusivity deals with those unions where new employees are required to join.
 
2012-05-11 10:39:14 AM  
"right to work" what a disingenuous line of complete bullshiat. I can't believe the rubes actually fall for it.

Should be called "right to fire" or "right to exploit".

People are suckered so easily in this country!
 
2012-05-11 10:39:39 AM  

Leeds: as a condition of employment.


Yeah, god forbid you adhere to the conditions of employment. You should totally have the government force them to change for you.

Shouldn't you be out occupying something, you entitled cry baby?
 
2012-05-11 10:39:55 AM  

Yugoboy: "Right to Work" weakens unions to the point of barely being useful.


That's not true. There are very effective unions in right-to-work states. Florida has very strong public employee unions.
 
2012-05-11 10:40:47 AM  

Yugoboy: "Right to Work" weakens unions to the point of barely being useful.


Then the next step is erasing unions entirely, arguing "Well, if unions are so important why does your state suck so bad?" Then you end up like just another southern state with tons of minimum wage jobs and no healthcare benefits.

/welcome to Wississippi
 
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