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(Yahoo)   37 year old future Hall-of-Famer Vladimir Guerrero, career .318 hitter, 449 HR, signs minor league contract with Toronto Blue Jays, eh?   (ca.sports.yahoo.com) divider line 52
    More: Hero, Vladimir Guerrero, Bluejays, Toronto, Edwin Encarnacion, home runs, Adam Lind, minor league contract, Jose Bautista  
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881 clicks; posted to Sports » on 11 May 2012 at 9:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-11 09:04:21 AM
Good ol Vladinator. A fantasy league hero til we started using OBP instead of AVG.
 
2012-05-11 09:40:20 AM
The turf in Montreal. Forever destroying the knees of an entire generation of baseball players.
 
2012-05-11 09:40:35 AM
Eh, he probably won't make the team.

It would be awesome to see if he does. And disheartening because that would probably mean Lind really sucks.
 
2012-05-11 09:46:16 AM
Minor league, hell, he could pitch on Minnesota's starting rotation right now.
 
2012-05-11 09:48:24 AM
Worst use of the Hero tag I have seen in a long time!
 
2012-05-11 09:50:24 AM

HeathenHealer: Minor league, hell, he could pitch on Minnesota's starting rotation right now.


I was having such a non-depressed Friday. Why you gotta ruin that?
 
2012-05-11 09:53:02 AM

Generation_D: Good ol Vladinator. A fantasy league hero til we started using OBP instead of AVG.


Even with OBP he was still pretty damn good. He had a few seasons over .400 even though he had his issues with not swinging at things.
 
2012-05-11 09:55:08 AM
I always loved Vlad, but does this really deserve a hero tag?
 
2012-05-11 09:57:23 AM

FreakinB: even though he had his issues with not swinging at things.


The best way to protect yourself from a ball thrown behind you is to swing at it.
 
2012-05-11 10:02:30 AM
Where's nutzandgum at? No one is on the roster is exclusively dh so this could work.
 
2012-05-11 10:06:01 AM

regindyn: HeathenHealer: Minor league, hell, he could pitch on Minnesota's starting rotation right now.

I was having such a non-depressed Friday. Why you gotta ruin that?


Sorry. Hey, the Vikings are getting a new stadium!!! Hopefully that cheered you back-up (assuming you also cheer for the Vikes)
 
2012-05-11 10:10:26 AM

HeathenHealer: regindyn: HeathenHealer: Minor league, hell, he could pitch on Minnesota's starting rotation right now.

I was having such a non-depressed Friday. Why you gotta ruin that?

Sorry. Hey, the Vikings are getting a new stadium!!! Hopefully that cheered you back-up (assuming you also cheer for the Vikes)


Nope!

I'm going to stick with "The Wolves were competitive until Kobe raped Rubio's knee!"
 
2012-05-11 10:13:40 AM
Good to say. The Jays need something, they can't rely on home runs all year. This may just be being done to give some of the hitters the needed kick in the ass to get going by clearly saying they are replaceable.

Though I do hope he makes it and can be welcomed back to Canada, even if not as a regular starter
 
2012-05-11 10:22:48 AM
I really like the sigining. there's really nothing negative about it. Low risk, if he makes it-great, if not, oh well. I think he's a blast in the clubhouse too so that will really help lighten the mood and maybe get those bats going the right way. If he hits anything above .250, that's a bonus.
There's really nothing bad about this signing.
 
2012-05-11 10:40:11 AM
Always liked Vlad. He took the same approach to hitting that I did. If it is within bat length and not over your head, swing. You only have to make contact on one of three swings.
 
2012-05-11 10:42:06 AM

HeathenHealer: Hey, the Vikings are getting a new stadium!!!


And they will STILL suck.
 
2012-05-11 11:23:55 AM
Anything is better than Lind at this point. The only good thing about Lind's contract are the fact that many of the years are options.
 
2012-05-11 11:44:33 AM
Vladeh!
 
2012-05-11 11:56:27 AM
Like the signing. Lind needs to get his shizzle together.
 
2012-05-11 12:08:46 PM
Future Hall of Famer?
 
2012-05-11 01:01:16 PM

PowerSlacker: Future Hall of Famer?


Heck yea. Take a look at his stats and awards wiki pops

.318 career
2,560 hit
449 home runs
2 x 30-30
9 x all star
 
2012-05-11 01:12:06 PM

Doran: Eh, he probably won't make the team.

It would be awesome to see if he does. And disheartening because that would probably mean Lind really sucks.


Probably mean Lind really sucks? Lind sucks.
 
2012-05-11 01:17:38 PM

PowerSlacker: Future Hall of Famer?


With Rice & Dawson getting in recently, the minimum bar for outfielders looks to be well established and Vlad seems more and more like a lock. He would have a pretty decent argument on his own merits, too, though.
 
2012-05-11 01:17:40 PM

PowerSlacker: Future Hall of Famer?


Very likely. How complete of a player he is/was gets overrated-- the cannon arm trades with the bad reads and errors, and the steals were brief and balanced by a lot of caught stealing. But the dude could hit, and even with his less-than-discerning approach, he had the contact and power to put up the right numbers. I'd vote for him based on his bat, with the rest of his game filed under "not bad, and a lot of great hitters happen to be bad at these things".

Stuff that matters to voters, even though not all of it should matter:
Even though Guerrero had the misfortune of playing some prime NL years alongside Barry Bonds, he has his MVP, and was in the running a bunch of other times. He had a long enough peak (~1998-2008) and career (~15 seasons) that he's not hurt by longevity. Not much of a postseason history. Doesn't really have one "big moment" or defining characteristic, and was out of the media spotlight too often when he was in Montreal.

If he can add a couple years of productive play, it will help him, but I think he gets in if he retires tomorrow. And heck, if he can still play, who wouldn't want to?
 
2012-05-11 01:20:51 PM
Canada has been good to him. I remember seeing him hit the back of Montreal's stadium, the ball still traveling at some ungodly speed. Probably still the hardest I've seen a ball hit, and this year I saw Hamilton put one up some 25 rows in right field at Fenway.
 
2012-05-11 01:21:31 PM

TheMatchHare: PowerSlacker: Future Hall of Famer?

With Rice & Dawson getting in recently, the minimum bar for outfielders looks to be well established and Vlad seems more and more like a lock. He would have a pretty decent argument on his own merits, too, though.


Agreed. I don't think he's a lock, or even necessarily a first-ballot guy. But he's a better candidate than either of those two, and a bunch of other semi-recent inductees.
 
2012-05-11 01:29:05 PM

chimp_ninja: TheMatchHare: PowerSlacker: Future Hall of Famer?

With Rice & Dawson getting in recently, the minimum bar for outfielders looks to be well established and Vlad seems more and more like a lock. He would have a pretty decent argument on his own merits, too, though.

Agreed. I don't think he's a lock, or even necessarily a first-ballot guy. But he's a better candidate than either of those two, and a bunch of other semi-recent inductees.


I definitely wouldn't put him in the first ballot discussion, for those who put a lot of weight in such things. Your post summarized his merits & flaws quite nicely, though, otherwise.
 
2012-05-11 01:52:02 PM
My all time favorite athlete.

Begged my family to take a vacation to Montreal as a kid so I could see him play. Best vacation ever.
 
2012-05-11 02:24:20 PM
At first I assumed he was another PED user, but based on his numbers I think Guerrero was probably clean.

I retract my previous question. Unless something comes out about him, he'll get into the HoF someday.
 
2012-05-11 02:34:42 PM

PowerSlacker: At first I assumed he was another PED user, but based on his numbers I think Guerrero was probably clean.


I would seriously like to know the thought process you used to determine this.

More importantly, I'd like to be able to give you other players' numbers (without their names) and have you let me know if they juiced.

chimp_ninja: Agreed. I don't think he's a lock, or even necessarily a first-ballot guy. But he's a better candidate than either of those two, and a bunch of other semi-recent inductees.


Hey, this is why HOF Monitor was invented.

A HOF monitor over 100 is a likely Hall of Famer. Vlad is at 209. 40th best all time. Better than guys like Al Kaline, Rickey Henderson, Kirby Puckett, Jim Rice...

Note that HOF Monitor isn't saying that Vlad is BETTER than any of those players, just that, based on past voting patterns, the Hall Voters would most likely support him more.
 
2012-05-11 02:45:50 PM
I love Vladdy, and I think it's a good trade for a lot of reasons.

1) No risk -- it's a minor league contract at worst

2) Vlad's bat -- still good, and he is IMPOSSIBLE to really accurately scout, when it comes to opposing pitchers - he'll hit anything even near the plate

3) Attendance -- enough Montreal fans who fondly remember young Guerrero would be happy to drive to Toronto to watch him play one last time (myself included)

4) Maybe the best reason: Toronto has TONS of Spanish players, and Vladdy is probably a GOD to most of them. Guys like Bautista, Escobar, Encarnacion, Arencibia. Hell, probably even Omar Vizquel worships him.

Having him on their team will make them better, if just that the last thing they want to do is look bad in front of him.
 
2012-05-11 02:51:20 PM

DeWayne Mann: Better than guys like...Rickey Henderson


Vlad is 3 hall of famers?
 
2012-05-11 03:03:48 PM

beantowndog: DeWayne Mann: Better than guys like...Rickey Henderson

Vlad is 3 hall of famers?


Well, he's at least two. My world view allows for non-integer amounts of hall of famers.

(And, hey, HOF monitor agrees. Clearly says he's worth 2.09 Hall of Famers)
 
2012-05-11 03:15:34 PM
Why didn't anyone pick him up before this when last year he batted .290 with 13 homeruns and 63 RBIs?
 
2012-05-11 03:18:54 PM

MtnByker: Why didn't anyone pick him up before this when last year he batted .290 with 13 homeruns and 63 RBIs?


Because those aren't good numbers for a COF/DH? He was basically an average hitter, playing positions that sort of demand above average offensive production.

Also, dude, RBIs? Really?
 
2012-05-11 03:21:09 PM

DeWayne Mann: Because those aren't good numbers for a COF/DH? He was basically an average hitter, playing positions that sort of demand above average offensive production.


I didn't even bother looking up his WAR when I wrote this. Just saw his 101 OPS+.

Vlad was worth -0.03 WAR last season.
 
2012-05-11 03:44:44 PM

DeWayne Mann: DeWayne Mann: Because those aren't good numbers for a COF/DH? He was basically an average hitter, playing positions that sort of demand above average offensive production.

I didn't even bother looking up his WAR when I wrote this. Just saw his 101 OPS+. Vlad was worth -0.03 WAR last season.


His Hackmaster Extraordinaire approach seems to be failing-- he used to draw a reasonable (but not good) number of walks, but last year it was 17 BB (3 intentional) in 590 PA, about 1/3 of his career average rate. Minor league contract sounds about right-- he has to show at least some ability to control the strike zone or he won't see a strike for the rest of the season.
 
2012-05-11 04:19:15 PM
37????? It seems like he was 37 when my son was born. My son is 31.
 
2012-05-11 05:20:18 PM
Expobill wished him good luck, and hopes to see him make the bigs.
/not that we are all counting on him!
 
2012-05-11 05:38:01 PM

expobill: Expobill wished him good luck, and hopes to see him make the bigs.
/not that we are all counting on him!


Do you root for the Nats?
 
2012-05-11 05:39:44 PM

Gunny Highway: expobill: Expobill wished him good luck, and hopes to see him make the bigs.
/not that we are all counting on him!

Do you root for the Nats?


no the Angels, i followed Vlad, but liked them before Vlad moved.
 
2012-05-11 05:51:41 PM

expobill: Gunny Highway: expobill: Expobill wished him good luck, and hopes to see him make the bigs.
/not that we are all counting on him!

Do you root for the Nats?

no the Angels, i followed Vlad, but liked them before Vlad moved.


Okay. I always wonder what teams other Expos fans ended up rooting for so thanks.

/Sox
 
2012-05-11 05:57:46 PM

Gunny Highway: Okay. I always wonder what teams other Expos fans ended up rooting for so thanks.


From what I've seen, it's pretty varied. Toronto and the Nats both make sense, obviously. I've heard Mets because they were the closest NL team. D-backs and Rays are common since they were so new.

Can't say I've heard too many Marlins, though. Hmmmm...
 
2012-05-11 06:05:22 PM

DeWayne Mann: Gunny Highway: Okay. I always wonder what teams other Expos fans ended up rooting for so thanks.

From what I've seen, it's pretty varied. Toronto and the Nats both make sense, obviously. I've heard Mets because they were the closest NL team. D-backs and Rays are common since they were so new.

Can't say I've heard too many Marlins, though. Hmmmm...


It didnt feel right to root for the Nats so I went with the Sox because they had always been my AL team (actually got to watch them play). I did root for the Mets (Pedro) and the Angels (Vlad) because of my Expos past.
 
2012-05-12 01:05:49 AM

roosam: 37????? It seems like he was 37 when my son was born. My son is 31.


You are thinking of Pedro Guerrero

/probably not but I wanted to mention him
//PAY DROH. GUH REH ROH.
 
2012-05-12 05:08:38 AM
HOF for sure, but the only reason he'd be considered "first ballot" is due to the egregious juicing of other players. And quite honestly, it's not that far fetched to say he may be one of the faster inductees as a position player of his generation. Obviously, a few great pitchers (Maddux and Johnson are the two best examples) are going to be locks for first-ballot HOF status, and there are big names (Glavine, Smoltz, etc) who may be voted in relatively quickly, but aside from a few players like Ken Griffey Jr. or Frank Thomas, I don't think many position players who will have the clout of Vlad. I mean, who are they going to get? Andruw Jones? He was far, far more overrated as a player than Vlad ever was over the whole of his career.
 
2012-05-12 06:47:34 AM

puffy999: I mean, who are they going to get? Andruw Jones? He was far, far more overrated as a player than Vlad ever was over the whole of his career.


Here's a complete list of players that baseball-reference considers to have saved more defensive runs (vs. replacement) than Andruw over their careers:

Ozzie Smith, Mark Belanger, Brooks Robinson, Cal Ripken, Joe Tinker, Luis Aparicio, Rabbit Maranville, Ivan Rodriguez, Bobby Wallace, Bill Dahlen, Art Fletcher, Omar Vizquel, Pee Wee Reese, Gary Carter, Bob Boone, Marty Marion, Roger Peckinpaugh, Jim Sundberg.

Andruw is a better hitter than all but a couple of those guys, and that list has a ton of all-glove-no-bat shortstops and catchers who were offensive liabilities. By WAR, both b-ref and Fangraphs agree that the overall package is a little better than Vlad. Vlad is obviously a better hitter, but he provided meh defense from an easy position. Andruw Jones has a case as the best defensive CF of all time, maybe losing out only to Willie Mays. He had a 10 year run where he nearly always led all outfielders in putouts (6x 1st, 3x 2nd, 1x 3rd). Gold Glove voting is unrealiable, but he did win 10 in a row-- only Mays and Clemente have more than 10.

Plus, Andruw wasn't a bad hitter. He wasn't the contact hitter that Vlad was, but he had a reasonable eye and similar power (423 HR, 377 2B and still active).
 
2012-05-12 02:30:04 PM

Gunny Highway: expobill: Gunny Highway: expobill: Expobill wished him good luck, and hopes to see him make the bigs.
/not that we are all counting on him!

Do you root for the Nats?

no the Angels, i followed Vlad, but liked them before Vlad moved.

Okay. I always wonder what teams other Expos fans ended up rooting for so thanks.

/Sox


None in my case. May finally throw in with the Jays now that AA has this team on a good track, and the Vlad signing helps a lot, for nostalgia's sake if nothing else.

Saw him play a few times, including the time he hit for "Le Carrousel".

Now that was a sports moment.

/Expos for life
//Fark Loria and Selig sideways with flaming pokers
 
2012-05-12 03:07:20 PM

roosam: 37????? It seems like he was 37 when my son was born. My son is 31.


He was 37 when your son was born. He tends to travel at the speed of light when he's not playing and....well...it's complicated... :)
 
2012-05-12 06:52:16 PM

chimp_ninja: Here's a complete list of players that baseball-reference considers to have saved more defensive runs (vs. replacement) than Andruw over their careers:


Overrated doesn't necessarily imply lesser quality, though his defense may have had a tad bit to do with some quality pitchers who weren't strikeout-dominant during the prime of his career. Just maybe. Can sabermetrics account for two of the best game-planning pitchers of our generation, who generally made a living off of in-play outs (and one who literally never walked anybody)? I'd loved to have seen Ken Griffey Jr. in his prime playing behind that staff, instead of Randy Johnson (and a bunch of scrubs, generally) on a concrete carpet.
 
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