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(Atomic Scientists Bulletin)   NATO's imaginary ballistic missile system: Since NATO is treating the system as if it were a reality, Russia insists it will take out the system by force...except the missile system doesn't exist   (thebulletin.org) divider line 91
    More: Strange, intercontinental ballistic missiles, NATO, Russia, missile defense systems, Strategic Defense Initiative, NATO summit, interceptors, ballistic missiles  
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5104 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 May 2012 at 4:15 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-09 07:45:22 PM  
What will NATO do if Russia attacks the imaginary missle defense system with their imaginary Putinpantz Death-Ray-From-Space?!?!
 
2012-05-09 07:51:02 PM  
Would You Like To Play A Game?
 
2012-05-09 08:53:18 PM  
So, we'll announce a program to intercept their missiles designed to take out to our imaginary missile interceptors.
 
2012-05-09 11:43:47 PM  
You cannot deceive us by not being there!

/we will pound our shoe on the table once again
 
2012-05-10 12:23:33 AM  
So is Russia going to spend itself into oblivion again? This is turning into a Road Runner cartoon.
 
2012-05-10 01:25:18 AM  
Settle it with Paper, Rock, Scissors!
 
2012-05-10 02:32:18 AM  
What a waste of money and resources by both sides, with more to come... apparently.
 
2012-05-10 02:38:19 AM  
jaredinnakano.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-05-10 03:23:23 AM  
Of course it exists. Their source was the New York Times.
 
2012-05-10 04:26:03 AM  

omnibus_necanda_sunt:


Needs a Brazzers logo.
 
2012-05-10 04:26:37 AM  
The Military channel said this years ago. They even talked about how to defeat the laser based one by simply spinning the missile
 
2012-05-10 04:39:49 AM  
This is political theater. Nothing more.
 
2012-05-10 04:48:39 AM  
A missile defense system that doesn't work is a damn cry different than one that doesn't exist.

You have silos dug or sites cleared, that's a thing, even if they're empty silos and fields because you can't afford to make a missile worth installing.

Russia can easily bomb certain things there.
 
2012-05-10 04:50:36 AM  
huh?
 
2012-05-10 05:00:35 AM  

doglover: A missile defense system that doesn't work is a damn cry different than one that doesn't exist.

You have silos dug or sites cleared, that's a thing, even if they're empty silos and fields because you can't afford to make a missile worth installing.

Russia can easily bomb certain things there.


Well, it's not as inconceivable as the article states that an ICBM could be intercepted successfully. It makes a certain kind of political sense for Russia to oppose installing systems that don't work, so that they can still oppose systems that ~do~ work, later on when they are developed. Remember, unless there actually is a thermonuclear war, these systems won't be legitimately tested in a way that needs to be paid attention to.

/I did read a sci-fi book about a space laser shooting down missiles at the end of the cold war.
//Russia mission-killed it with their small fleet of combat capable shuttles as they invaded the middle-east.
 
2012-05-10 05:05:16 AM  
they sound bored.
 
2012-05-10 05:08:13 AM  

untaken_name: This is political theater. Nothing more.


The Russians need to knock it off, then. The Cold War is over, wankers. You lost, we won. We have absolutely no interest in obliterating your cities anymore; you do that well enough on your own. We'd turn Moscow into a glass parking lot, but considering it's little more than barren lots covered in broken glass, why bother?
 
2012-05-10 05:14:14 AM  

Marine1: untaken_name: This is political theater. Nothing more.

The Russians need to knock it off, then. The Cold War is over, wankers. You lost, we won. We have absolutely no interest in obliterating your cities anymore; you do that well enough on your own. We'd turn Moscow into a glass parking lot, but considering it's little more than barren lots covered in broken glass, why bother?


Russia is suffering from little country syndrome. They're largely irrelevant now and will only become more so with the rise of China and India/
 
2012-05-10 05:16:52 AM  

kg2095: Marine1: untaken_name: This is political theater. Nothing more.

The Russians need to knock it off, then. The Cold War is over, wankers. You lost, we won. We have absolutely no interest in obliterating your cities anymore; you do that well enough on your own. We'd turn Moscow into a glass parking lot, but considering it's little more than barren lots covered in broken glass, why bother?

Russia is suffering from little country syndrome. They're largely irrelevant now and will only become more so with the rise of China and India/


Sorry, they're an oil exporter. They get to be relevant.
 
2012-05-10 05:21:59 AM  
Even if the system did exist, it would be a defense system and not an attack system, so what's the problem? There are those who say that setting up a good defense is a prelude to making an offense. But that'd be like if I fortified my den against being broken into and my neighbor said "You're doing that because you plan to break into my house"
 
2012-05-10 05:27:36 AM  

drjekel_mrhyde: The Military channel said this years ago. They even talked about how to defeat the laser based one by simply spinning the missile


except for the fact that spinning the missile would be about as effective as the laughable "sliding bandage" defense, with the lasers the U.S. DoD wants developed the missiles destruction comes not from burn through but from plasma ejecta from the hit pushing the missile off course inducing gimballing and the subsequent G force destruction of the missile, yes those lasers are years in the future.
The anti missile batteries they are talking about here do exist, yes the missiles currently have about a 50% success rate but launch enough interceptors and your hit probability goes up 8-), useful against a limited strike, such as what Iran might be able to accomplish or against a rogue missile launch but little else. Russia knows this will not seriously degrade any major strike it could launch so they are posturing for concessions as always.
As for their threat to strike look up any objective discussion of their war with Georgia, Russia won but it strained their logistics to the breaking point, any attack on NATO would be disastrous for Russia and they know it, again more posturing.
All of this is politics as always, meant for internal consumption by their respective populations and "The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists" knows this but since the end of the cold war and the Soviet collapse they have been adrift and this offers them some glimmer of relativity so let them masturbate away...
 
2012-05-10 05:35:14 AM  

Marine1: untaken_name: This is political theater. Nothing more.

The Russians need to knock it off, then. The Cold War is over, wankers. You lost, we won. We have absolutely no interest in obliterating your cities anymore; you do that well enough on your own. We'd turn Moscow into a glass parking lot, but considering it's little more than barren lots covered in broken glass, why bother?


We won, did we? How many of the 10 items of the Bill of Rights do they practice in Russia today? Because we practice all 10 of the planks of the Communist Manifesto in America today. We are in worse financial trouble than Russia was in the 80s. Our media is controlled. Our citizens are being strip-searched in order to travel. Government agencies such as the DEA are completely above the law and unaccountable. Citizens can be "disappeared" with no trial. VIPR teams are conducting random searches on citybuses. We have to stop and present papers at "DUI" checkpoints. I dunno, I'm not so sure we won.
 
2012-05-10 06:03:20 AM  
Let's see...

The total number of missile interceptors they're planning on installing in Europe?

Ten. Maybe twelve, eventually.

Each of which can intercept one warhead.

The total number of missiles Russia has aimed at Europe?

At least 100, carrying over 300 warheads. (489 ICBMs in their current arsenal, carrying 1788 warheads - this does not count their submarine fleet or their air launched cruise missile arsenal).

So... Russia is prepared to go to war because there is a possibility of (on an impossibly lucky day) intercepting just over three percent of their incoming ICBM warheads.

Here's the kicker: the ABMs we're setting up in Europe are, due to location, better suited to intercepting missiles from the Middle East (Russia's ICBMs are mostly located in their northern regions, which means their trajectories will be too far north of the ABMs for easy intercept).

On the other hand, a possible Iranian ICBM threat would keep oil prices high, which is good for... Russia. If Iran ends up with a small handful of ICBMs, they have a credible threat against Europe - but they're on "good" terms with Russia.

Not to mention, of course, Russia's own existing ABM fleet (which is much larger than the one we want to install in Europe), and their huge "Surface to Air Missile" system, which, with slight modifications to their radar hardware, becomes an ABM system capable of intercepting shorter-ranged ballistic missiles...
 
2012-05-10 06:12:12 AM  
Well, at one point we built a life-sized balsa wood model of it. Which was very impressive, provided you were very careful not to lean against it.

/obscure?
 
2012-05-10 06:26:06 AM  

untaken_name: Marine1: untaken_name: This is political theater. Nothing more.

The Russians need to knock it off, then. The Cold War is over, wankers. You lost, we won. We have absolutely no interest in obliterating your cities anymore; you do that well enough on your own. We'd turn Moscow into a glass parking lot, but considering it's little more than barren lots covered in broken glass, why bother?

We won, did we? How many of the 10 items of the Bill of Rights do they practice in Russia today? Because we practice all 10 of the planks of the Communist Manifesto in America today. We are in worse financial trouble than Russia was in the 80s. Our media is controlled. Our citizens are being strip-searched in order to travel. Government agencies such as the DEA are completely above the law and unaccountable. Citizens can be "disappeared" with no trial. VIPR teams are conducting random searches on citybuses. We have to stop and present papers at "DUI" checkpoints. I dunno, I'm not so sure we won.


If you honestly think we're on the level of the Soviet Union, you're out of your mind. Yeah, we've got some things to deal with, but you're not going to go to jail for typing what you just did.
 
2012-05-10 06:26:22 AM  
Knock it off assholes, there are better things to spend money on than dick waving contests on both sides.
 
2012-05-10 06:35:01 AM  
Well, several questions come to mind that aren't covered so far:

First, if the NATO missile defense system is imaginary, will the Russian pre-emptive strike also be fantasy?

Second, if these things are true, are we only imagining the Daily Fail article? (I usually wish that were true....)

Third, is there a possibility you are imagining reading this post, or that I imagined writing it?

/"Military intelligence, there's a contradiction in terms."
 
2012-05-10 06:35:20 AM  
Fake missiles, in my country? It's more likely than you think!

snuff3r.com
 
2012-05-10 06:38:19 AM  

Marine1: If you honestly think we're on the level of the Soviet Union, you're out of your mind. Yeah, we've got some things to deal with, but you're not going to go to jail for typing what you just did.


And if I did, how would you know? Besides, if we're so non-imprisony, why do we imprison more people per capita than any other country in the world?
 
2012-05-10 06:40:41 AM  
Why don't we just put all these fat, doltish, pushy old men into a room and let them work out their imaginary governments while we go back to feeding babies and cleaning all the petrochemicals out of the water? Seriously. What have any of these wankers done for anybody lately?
 
2012-05-10 06:40:58 AM  

untaken_name: Marine1: If you honestly think we're on the level of the Soviet Union, you're out of your mind. Yeah, we've got some things to deal with, but you're not going to go to jail for typing what you just did.

And if I did, how would you know? Besides, if we're so non-imprisony, why do we imprison more people per capita than any other country in the world?


Probably because there's a lot of money in building prisons.
 
2012-05-10 06:43:06 AM  

bunner: Why don't we just put all these fat, doltish, pushy old men into a room and let them work out their imaginary governments while we go back to feeding babies and cleaning all the petrochemicals out of the water? Seriously. What have any of these wankers done for anybody lately?


Well, they're in the process of giving the bankers whatever they can, so there's that.
 
2012-05-10 06:44:15 AM  

miss diminutive: untaken_name: Marine1: If you honestly think we're on the level of the Soviet Union, you're out of your mind. Yeah, we've got some things to deal with, but you're not going to go to jail for typing what you just did.

And if I did, how would you know? Besides, if we're so non-imprisony, why do we imprison more people per capita than any other country in the world?

Probably because there's a lot of money in building prisons.


And staffing them and buying food for them and stocking them and installing electronics in them and telling taxpayers they are the only thin line between them and dope addled criminals running rampant in the streets. See? You CAN make money off of the poor.
 
2012-05-10 06:44:30 AM  
Putin JUST had an election in Russia, coinciding pretty closely with this statement. You know how a leader gets himself elected in that country? Have you ever SEEN some of Putin's commercials? This is an election year ploy to talk tough and "stick it" to the Americans, that is it. The Russians would have full knowledge that the system is not meant for their weapons based solely upon where/how the missile sites are located and arrayed geographically. Because you need to catch missiles in their boost (or launch phase) you have to place your missiles in locations that can reach the ascending ICBM.

The system itself is entirely in the wrong place geographically to be used against a Russian strike. You don't invest billions in a missile defense systems that can only defend against a fraction of your enemies deterrent.

Plus, the amount of interceptor missiles themselves make the idea of using them against Russia absolutely absurd. Russia or the US is not going to launch a limited nuclear strike. The entire reason why MAD works is because the consequences for any one launch are too horrific to risk. If the US got extremely lucky we could at best knock down 10-12 missiles (with a 50% success rate divide that by half). Russia would launch upwards of 300, and most of those wouldn't even be reachable in the first place.
 
2012-05-10 06:53:33 AM  

untaken_name: Marine1: If you honestly think we're on the level of the Soviet Union, you're out of your mind. Yeah, we've got some things to deal with, but you're not going to go to jail for typing what you just did.

And if I did, how would you know? Besides, if we're so non-imprisony, why do we imprison more people per capita than any other country in the world?


Well, I could look to see if you had continued posting on Fark.

People have said worse things about the government here and they aren't in prison.

And the second thing: a combination of a good police system and a few laws we don't need (namely drug laws). Still doesn't change what people are being sent to prison for... it's not for speaking out against the government.
 
2012-05-10 07:00:02 AM  

Marine1: untaken_name: Marine1: If you honestly think we're on the level of the Soviet Union, you're out of your mind. Yeah, we've got some things to deal with, but you're not going to go to jail for typing what you just did.

And if I did, how would you know? Besides, if we're so non-imprisony, why do we imprison more people per capita than any other country in the world?

Well, I could look to see if you had continued posting on Fark.

People have said worse things about the government here and they aren't in prison.

And the second thing: a combination of a good police system and a few laws we don't need (namely drug laws). Still doesn't change what people are being sent to prison for... it's not for speaking out against the government.


Uh, ok. Keep telling yourself that, if it helps you sleep. Who cares if we're ruining peoples' lives for no reason, as long as we aren't doing it because they don't like the government! Well, except for all those people locked up for protesting...

Link
Link
Link
Link
Link
Link

Nah, that doesn't happen here. What am I thinking?
 
2012-05-10 07:13:44 AM  
Pooty-Poot willed it out of existence with his mental superpowers? Maybe just by flexing?
 
2012-05-10 07:23:12 AM  
Maybe the missile defense system is only a disguise for a network of attacking missiles with nuclear warheads and all, and the Russians know it.
 
2012-05-10 07:33:36 AM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Even if the system did exist, it would be a defense system and not an attack system, so what's the problem? There are those who say that setting up a good defense is a prelude to making an offense. But that'd be like if I fortified my den against being broken into and my neighbor said "You're doing that because you plan to break into my house"


What has kept the nuclear option off the table all these years is the concept of mutually assured destruction. If we create a system that will prevent retribution if we fire are weapons it means we can now use them offensively instead of defensively. That is why a system like this bothers other countries.
 
2012-05-10 07:36:16 AM  

untaken_name: Because we practice all 10 of the planks of the Communist Manifesto in America today.


This is simply a retarded statement.
 
2012-05-10 07:37:52 AM  

manimal2878: untaken_name: Because we practice all 10 of the planks of the Communist Manifesto in America today.

This is simply a retarded statement.


Name one we don't practice, then. Pick whichever you like.
 
2012-05-10 07:44:27 AM  

untaken_name: Marine1: untaken_name: This is political theater. Nothing more.

The Russians need to knock it off, then. The Cold War is over, wankers. You lost, we won. We have absolutely no interest in obliterating your cities anymore; you do that well enough on your own. We'd turn Moscow into a glass parking lot, but considering it's little more than barren lots covered in broken glass, why bother?

We won, did we? How many of the 10 items of the Bill of Rights do they practice in Russia today? Because we practice all 10 of the planks of the Communist Manifesto in America today. We are in worse financial trouble than Russia was in the 80s. Our media is controlled. Our citizens are being strip-searched in order to travel. Government agencies such as the DEA are completely above the law and unaccountable. Citizens can be "disappeared" with no trial. VIPR teams are conducting random searches on citybuses. We have to stop and present papers at "DUI" checkpoints. I dunno, I'm not so sure we won.


Have you read A Communist Manifesto? What ten planks are you concerned about? The one about people being free to pursue their individual interests rather than working in a sweatshop because there were no opportunities for anything else for most people of Marx's time and place? Orn the very Christian belief that one is, indeed, one's brother's keeper and should help look out for one another rather than letting the dispossessed starve to death on the street?

After reading that book in Intro to Sociology I was proud to live in the closest embodiment of his post-revolutionary ideal. He wrote a wonderful description of those things that are good about the US and we didn't even need a truly bloody revolution. Just a few pitched battles until the government started telling companies to treat workers better.

Marx is absolutely no threat to American values once you take away the need for a revolution. And the Marxists themselves recognized this and adapted as larger society changed and they saw what the uneducated louts in the USSR were doing. They became critical theorists and were killed by the Nazis for mostly being Jewish.
 
2012-05-10 07:49:19 AM  
 
2012-05-10 07:53:11 AM  

untaken_name: Name one we don't practice, then. Pick whichever you like.


1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. You can still own private property so not this one.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. The current tax rate on income is the lowest in our history so not this one, while we were fighting WWII it was 90% on the highest brackets, so this one is out.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance. Obviously not the case
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. What rebels? What emigrants? Gonna say this one is not true either.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. Are there private banks? Then this is out
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. Nope. Still private media.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Nope
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Not a chance, where is this industrial army, we have trouble to even keep from running off the immigrants that do this labor.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. Nope
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.[15] Ok this might be the one thing that we have done, and this is a bad thing?
 
2012-05-10 07:55:14 AM  

Marine1: untaken_name: This is political theater. Nothing more.

The Russians need to knock it off, then. The Cold War is over, wankers. You lost, we won. We have absolutely no interest in obliterating your cities anymore; you do that well enough on your own. We'd turn Moscow into a glass parking lot, but considering it's little more than barren lots covered in broken glass, why bother?


And Russia would do the same to you, troll. MAD is still in effect, and would be even with the anti missile system, since it doesn't work against Russian missiles (it probably would against Iranian ones though, which is the point I gather).

As for Moscow being barren and covered in broken glass. With the base index at 100 for New York, Moscow is 89. And we all know how cheap NY is. (source: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Russia&ci ty=Moscow )

Either you're ignorant, or a troll (or both).
 
2012-05-10 07:55:36 AM  

BolloxReader: Have you read A Communist Manifesto? What ten planks are you concerned about?


I don't know what A Communist Manifesto is, but I've read The Communist Manifesto, and the issue isn't whether I'm concerned about the planks or not, the issue is whether America has adopted more Communist ideals or whether Russia has adopted more American ideals. There are only 10 planks in the Communist Manifesto, btw, so those are the only 10 to be concerned about. Since you asked, though, I don't like central banks, I don't like public schools, I don't like government control over property, I don't like heavy progressive income taxes, I don't like people messing with inheritances, I don't like government control over the airwaves and communication, I don't like industrial agriculture, and I don't like government control over all means of production.
 
2012-05-10 07:56:01 AM  

untaken_name: manimal2878: untaken_name: Because we practice all 10 of the planks of the Communist Manifesto in America today.

This is simply a retarded statement.

Name one we don't practice, then. Pick whichever you like.


You're not allowed to inherit any stuff in the US?
Come on... that one was so retarded even the Soviets repealed it as soon as Lenin kicked the bucket.
 
2012-05-10 07:56:23 AM  
www.atomicgamer.com

As long as we hold back from the inital nuke fest, and let our ABM interceptors take out the incoming missles, we should be able to strike back, and only suffer 60-80 million loses. That's a win anyday!

/And park a sub fleet off the coast of India, to hit Russia in the middle
 
2012-05-10 07:59:10 AM  

Pribar:
The anti missile batteries they are talking about here do exist, yes the missiles currently have about a 50% success rate but launch enough interceptors and your hit probability goes up 8-), useful against a limited strike, such as what Iran might be able to accomplish or against a rogue missile launch but little else. Russia knows this will not seriously degrade any major strike it could launch so they are posturing for concessions as always.


The 50% hit rate is against missiles with a fixed trajectory (like Scuds, or whatever Iran has). Russia claims that their missiles can alter trajectory, which would put the hit rate at 0%.

The anti-missile missile is slower than the ballistic missile, and thus depends on it calculating where it will be at a certain time, if the ballistic missile changes trajectory it can't hit it.
 
2012-05-10 08:11:36 AM  

manimal2878: 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. You can still own private property so not this one.


Oh, really? And if you don't pay your rent (property tax), the actual owner will show up and assert superior title soon enough. Allodial title has been abolished.

manimal2878: 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. The current tax rate on income is the lowest in our history so not this one, while we were fighting WWII it was 90% on the highest brackets, so this one is out.


It's a heavy progressive income tax, dolt. It doesn't matter if you think it's not heavy ENOUGH, it is a graduated (or progressive) income tax.

manimal2878: 3. Abolition of all right of inheritance. Obviously not the case


Do you know when the inheritance tax was instituted? Obviously not.

manimal2878: 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. What rebels? What emigrants? Gonna say this one is not true either.


Um, have you not heard of confiscation of the property of criminals and people who expatriate? Those are emigrants, and the IRS taxes their income for 10 years after they emigrate. So, you're wrong yet again.

manimal2878: 5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. Are there private banks? Then this is out


You don't know what a central bank is, do you? What banks issue private currency in the US? They use Federal Reserve notes. The Federal Reserve is the central bank. This isn't a radical statement; do some research.

manimal2878: 6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. Nope. Still private media.


Private media? You're joking, right? Additionally, which major media outlet isn't a government-licensed corporation? Which means of national transportation isn't regulated by government? Are you seriously this ignorant?

manimal2878: 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Nope


Uh, then what do the Farm Bureau, the Bureau of Land Management, the EPA, OSHA, the Small Business Administration, and every other regulatory body do, then?

manimal2878: 8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Not a chance, where is this industrial army, we have trouble to even keep from running off the immigrants that do this labor.


Read up on the US Stability Police Force. Also, the Social Security contract calls for you to give up all of your labor for all of your life. What else do you call that but an industrial army? Read title 42 of the USC if you don't believe me. I mean, if you're capable of sounding out all the big words they use.

manimal2878: 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. Nope


Link

manimal2878: 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.[15] Ok this might be the one thing that we have done, and this is a bad thing?


Public school children perform at the 50th percentile. Private school children perform at about the 80th percentile. Yes, this is a very bad thing.

Come talk to me in 20 years, when you get a little seasoning in you and you maybe have some wisdom.
 
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