AverageAmericanGuy: Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

Actually at this point, evolution is a known fact. It happened and continues to happen.

The exact mechanisms, pressures, etc that apply to it, our understanding of those things are theories that seek to describe and predict what we see. Evolution, the phenomenon, is factual.

Just like gravity is factual, but our understanding of it and explanations for it are theoretical.

Gothnet: AverageAmericanGuy: Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

Actually at this point, evolution is a known fact. It happened and continues to happen.

The exact mechanisms, pressures, etc that apply to it, our understanding of those things are theories that seek to describe and predict what we see. Evolution, the phenomenon, is factual.

Just like gravity is factual, but our understanding of it and explanations for it are theoretical.

We have a winner!

omnibus_necanda_sunt: AverageAmericanGuy: Defeated: Evolution is Fact.

Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

If you're going to be that asshole, then mathematicians are the only people in the universe that are able to prove anything, period.

Oh sure, within the confines of their metaphysics. But math can't prove love.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Oh, and I bash Orthodox Judaism just as much as Christianity and Islam. In fact, I probably know more about world religions than Richard Dawkins, and he's the one trying to take on the world. (Hint to Dawkins: Look at Germany in 1900-1945. Doing that doesn't end well).

List of things I dislike:
Simonians
Sabians
Druze
Sufis
Alawites
Sunnis
Shi'ites
the doctrine of Juche
Confucianism
Taoism
Shintoism
Pharisees
Sadducees
Samaritans
Essenes
Roman Catholics
Coptic Catholics
Armenian Catholics
Syriac Catholics
Rastafarians
followers of Asatru
Gnostics
Manichaeans
Zoroastrians
Mormons
members of the Nation of Islam (the one with black people and space aliens and Louis Farrakhan)
Scientologists
Kimbanguists
Mormons
Monophysites
Nestorians
Ebionites
Lutherans
Baptists
Mennonites
Episcopalians
Amish
Methodists
Presbyterians
Anglicans
Reformed Protestants
Congregational Protestants
Maenads
Wiccans
Baha'i
Confucianists
Platonists
Any and all Native American, African, Malay, Indonesian, Hawaiian, et. al. animists
Belief in sorcery, wizardry, voodoo, magic, magick, the evil eye, fascination, sihr, alchemy, demonology, angelology, ufology, et. al.

You sound like you have no spirit.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Barbecue Bob: omnibus_necanda_sunt: Oh, and I bash Orthodox Judaism just as much as Christianity and Islam. In fact, I probably know more about world religions than Richard Dawkins, and he's the one trying to take on the world. (Hint to Dawkins: Look at Germany in 1900-1945. Doing that doesn't end well).

List of things I dislike:
...
However, why is Buddha not listed? Not for lack of flaws...

I got tired... consider him added.

Seemed a big kahuna to miss on such a list so I wondered if that was your thing?
Although if I was, you'd likely not have posted that list at all.
:)
Happy Friday.

omnibus_necanda_sunt: Mock26:Copy and Paste is such a great thing on the internet

So is ignore.

Oh know! An internet smart guy has put me on ignore. I do not think that I cannot go on living knowing that whatever his name is will never again read my posts. Woe is me.

doglover: The Buddha (it's a title not his name) is the only atheist to found a successful religion. Why would you, of all people, hate him?

Buddhism is basically 1. Observation of life without judgement 2. Helping your fellow sentient beings 3. Not being a dick

That's the Reader's Digest version right there. Condensed from 8 to 3. :)

Mock26: omnibus_necanda_sunt: Mock26:Copy and Paste is such a great thing on the internet

So is ignore.

Oh know! An internet smart guy has put me on ignore. I do not think that I cannot go on living knowing that whatever his name is will never again read my posts. Woe is me.

Hey now. Don't be so glum! He might not be blocking responses to your posts.

Bevets: Osomatic:

If every person of faith just kept it to themselves, I sincerely doubt you'd find almost any atheists bothering to say anything about it.

Unfortunately atheists insists on pushing their faith on everyone else through public education.

My clever ruse has been uncovered! Well, you've got me there, sir. But I wonder why you stop at evolution? There are so very many faiths pushed by public schools at the insistence of atheists!

Chemistry
Physics
Geology (well, okay, as Terry Pratchett points out, geology is just physics slowed down and with trees on top, but still, it's obviously an atheist-promoted science since it comes to conclusions that the earth might be a wee smidge older than 6000 years)
Medicine
Astronomy
Metallurgy
Oceanography
Astrology (hah, just kidding! I thought I could slip that one past you, but you're too eagle-eyed for that.)
Atmospheric science
Astrophysics
Biology... (AHHHH, see, just kidding again. Obviously studying atheist biology leads you pretty inevitably to see that evolution occurred, so it must have all been planned by atheists.)

I could go on, but it's rather obvious that the Renaissance and the development of the scientific method was a massive atheist plot going back about 400 years or so.

And now you see the results: America is a vastly atheist nation, where the President ends every speech with "God is dead" and in which evolution is universally revered! Europe has been atheist for hundreds of years. Now, only you and your brethren in the Muslim countries stand as bulwarks against the advancing tide of atheism which I and my fellow atheists (or non-theistic agnostics, in my case) are attempting to advance through the teaching of science! I mean, the teaching of FAITH! SCIENCE-ISM FAITH!

Nick the What: The only theists who care about atheists are Christians. The reasons:

1. Christians, historically, are not comfortable with their societal privilege being challenged.

2. One of their religions central tenets, contrary to other religions, is to proselytize, which ends up stoking the controversy.

Other religions don't give a crap what atheists think. They're humble, and, they also shelter themselves, which helps their confidence.

Societal privilege? Where? Was this in the 50's or are you talking about now?

AverageAmericanGuy: omnibus_necanda_sunt: AverageAmericanGuy: Defeated: Evolution is Fact.

Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

If you're going to be that asshole, then mathematicians are the only people in the universe that are able to prove anything, period.

Oh sure, within the confines of their metaphysics. But math can't prove love.

[notsureifserious.jpg]

UseLessHuman: One side has facts. The other relies on faith.

Atheists don't have "facts"; they profess something every bit as unprovable as theists.

AverageAmericanGuy: Defeated: Evolution is Fact.

Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

*looks at the various breeds of dog, the bacteria that have become resistant to antibiotics, the finches of Galapagos, the different types of fancy goldfish, and the rest of the living world*

Hmm, looks real to me. What do you want, a Pokemon-like evolution process to happen in front of your eyes?

Keizer_Ghidorah: AverageAmericanGuy: Defeated: Evolution is Fact.

Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

*looks at the various breeds of dog, the bacteria that have become resistant to antibiotics, the finches of Galapagos, the different types of fancy goldfish, and the rest of the living world*

Hmm, looks real to me. What do you want, a Pokemon-like evolution process to happen in front of your eyes?

The sound of the ocean seems real, but it is just my brain's interpretation of the vibrations of the air. Most solid matter looks solid but is almost completely empty space.

What looks real to you does not make something the truth.

GoldSpider: UseLessHuman: One side has facts. The other relies on faith.

Atheists don't have "facts"; they profess something every bit as unprovable as theists.


That the evidence doesn't support deities?
That's what I've generally heard from atheists. What about that is unprovable?

Or were you talking about your extra special straw-man atheists that make a declaration that they know there is no god? Because, well, call me skeptical but I haven't seen any of them either, so I'd need evidence before I believe they exist.

Gothnet: That the evidence doesn't support deities?
That's what I've generally heard from atheists. What about that is unprovable?

Or were you talking about your extra special straw-man atheists that make a declaration that they know there is no god? Because, well, call me skeptical but I haven't seen any of them either, so I'd need evidence before I believe they exist.

You're confusing atheists with agnostics. It's an easy mistake to make.

"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt." -Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

ununcle: Nick the What: The only theists who care about atheists are Christians. The reasons:

1. Christians, historically, are not comfortable with their societal privilege being challenged.

2. One of their religions central tenets, contrary to other religions, is to proselytize, which ends up stoking the controversy.

Other religions don't give a crap what atheists think. They're humble, and, they also shelter themselves, which helps their confidence.

Societal privilege? Where? Was this in the 50's or are you talking about now?

Well, I would say the answer to "where" is: In the United States. If you disagree, let me ask you this: Can you imagine a non-Christian (either another religion, or an agnostic or atheist) being elected President? Dude, Christianity permeates this culture. I know some people like to talk about Christians being persecuted, but that's just built into Christianity. They *have* to feel persecuted. In the US, they are far, far, far from it. (Yes, even though sometimes a school administrator goes overboard and tells a kid with a Jesus shirt to take it off. That's not actually persecution.)

GoldSpider: You're confusing atheists with agnostics. It's an easy mistake to make.

Yeah, not so much. Agnostic means no knowledge, atheist means no faith. These are not mutually exclusive.
Agnostic atheists make up the vast majority of atheists, to the almost complete exclusion of any other sort. Even Dawkins is an agnostic atheist.


If you don't accept that, then there are no atheists here for you to argue with.

GoldSpider: You're confusing atheists with agnostics. It's an easy mistake to make.

They played quotes on NPR of a few people commenting on their various levels of belief, and I was rather annoyed NPR didn't rise to the level of defining how these words are actually defined.

Btw, you are also confusing them.


GoldSpider: Atheists don't have "facts"; they profess something every bit as unprovable as theists.

You shouldn't throw stones from that glass house.

Gothnet: Yeah, not so much. Agnostic means no knowledge, atheist means no faith. These are not mutually exclusive.
Agnostic atheists make up the vast majority of atheists, to the almost complete exclusion of any other sort. Even Dawkins is an agnostic atheist.

That makes sense, but it doesn't explain the utter lack of humility of many self-identifying atheists, or their inability to acknowledge that they might be wrong. Much like their religious counterparts.

Maybe it's just an Internet thing...

GoldSpider: That makes sense, but it doesn't explain the utter lack of humility of many self-identifying atheists, or their inability to acknowledge that they might be wrong. Much like their religious counterparts.

Maybe it's just an Internet thing...

What's wrong about saying there's no evidence for god(s) and that trying to impose rules, social or legal, upon others lives based on the supposed will of unproven supernatural beings is objectionable?

doglover: omnibus_necanda_sunt: doglover: omnibus_necanda_sunt: Barbecue Bob: omnibus_necanda_sunt: Oh, and I bash Orthodox Judaism just as much as Christianity and Islam. In fact, I probably know more about world religions than Richard Dawkins, and he's the one trying to take on the world. (Hint to Dawkins: Look at Germany in 1900-1945. Doing that doesn't end well).

List of things I dislike:
Simonians
Sabians
Druze
Sufis
Alawites
Sunnis
Shi'ites
the doctrine of Juche
Confucianism
Taoism
Shintoism
Pharisees
Sadducees
Samaritans
Essenes
Roman Catholics
Coptic Catholics
Armenian Catholics
Syriac Catholics
Rastafarians
followers of Asatru
Gnostics
Manichaeans
Zoroastrians
Mormons
members of the Nation of Islam (the one with black people and space aliens and Louis Farrakhan)
Scientologists
Kimbanguists
Mormons
Monophysites
Nestorians
Ebionites
Lutherans
Baptists
Mennonites
Episcopalians
Amish
Methodists
Presbyterians
Anglicans
Reformed Protestants
Congregational Protestants
Maenads
Wiccans
Baha'i
Confucianists
Platonists
Any and all Native American, African, Malay, Indonesian, Hawaiian, et. al. animists
Belief in sorcery, wizardry, voodoo, magic, magick, the evil eye, fascination, sihr, alchemy, demonology, angelology, ufology, et. al.

Finally... someone I almost agree with.
However, why is Buddha not listed? Not for lack of flaws...

I got tired... consider him added.

The Buddha (it's a title not his name) is the only atheist to found a successful religion. Why would you, of all people, hate him?

Buddhism is basically 1. Observation of life without judgement 2. Helping your fellow sentient beings 3. Not being a dick

You've heard the stories about him sitting under a tree for decades, and fighting a dragon, and the tales about the adamantine thunderbolt, and reincarnation, right? Plus, the whole vow-of-poverty thing that's a prerequisite for the highest level is very bad for the economy.

In order: He did sit under trees for decades, before and after "awakening". It was his ...

Another attempt to rationalize and/or humanize topics clearly not plausible to do so.
Also, full of unlikely concepts such as Nirvana.

/I enjoy the thought of a place like Nirvana. It's just not in my nature to think it exists. Lack of evidence I suppose.

Gothnet: GoldSpider: That makes sense, but it doesn't explain the utter lack of humility of many self-identifying atheists, or their inability to acknowledge that they might be wrong. Much like their religious counterparts.

Maybe it's just an Internet thing...

What's wrong about saying there's no evidence for god(s) and that trying to impose rules, social or legal, upon others lives based on the supposed will of unproven supernatural beings is objectionable?

I have no beef with any atheist who can make his/her point without resorting to ridicule or other personal attacks.

And on this -

GoldSpider: Maybe it's just an Internet thing...


Well, you've heard of the Greater Internet Farkwad theory, right?

Gothnet: Well, you've heard of the Greater Internet Farkwad theory, right?

Of course!

SnakeLee: Ambivalence: But there is a certain group of ANTI-theistic atheists that are just as bad as "helfire and damnation" theists.

The worst atheists try to ban nativity scenes and troll with billboards.

The worst fire and brimstone theists try to make it so rape victims have to carry the baby to term even if it will cause death to the mother, prevent gay people from getting married, try to get evolution taken out of the school curriculum nationwide and preach the prosperity gospel to fleece retirees.

The first group is annoying, the second group is something else entirely. The vast majority of the religious people I know are awesome and I have no issue with their faith, but if we are just talking about the worst of the loud cheerleaders for either side, it's not really a contest.

I'm a Christian and I have to say that this guy has a point. I've literally been thrown out of churches because I think abortion should be legal, I don't give a damn who you marry or sleep with (because 1 - free will and 2 - glass houses+stones=me bleeding to death from my own stupidity and asshattery on both points), believe all scientific theory should be taught as just that: theory, and firmly believe the "prosperity gospel" (as well as the Rapture) is flat-out nonsense designed to rip people off and fatten the coffers.

I won't try to convince any non-Christians that I'm right, and I will do everything in my power to respect others' beliefs. By the same token, I admit that there are times I'd appreciate the same courtesy. It is unnecessary to be deliberately offensive when referring to one's faith - regardless of what that faith is or is not.

Trashy: Obvious tag on hiatus?

THIS. Nothing more irritating than a farking atheist's arrogance.

Shostie: I don't know, man.

I just think we should all get high together and watch episodes of Stargate: SG-1 or something. Maybe put on some tunes and the blacklight after a while

I vote for this.

Osomatic: Well, I would say the answer to "where" is: In the United States. If you disagree, let me ask you this: Can you imagine a non-Christian (either another religion, or an agnostic or atheist) being elected President? Dude, Christianity permeates this culture. I know some people like to talk about Christians being persecuted, but that's just built into Christianity. They *have* to feel persecuted. In the US, they are far, far, far from it. (Yes, even though sometimes a school administrator goes overboard and tells a kid with a Jesus shirt to take it off. That's not actually persecution.)

Christians are elected president because the US is a predominantly Christian nation. It was founded on Christian principals and the majority of citizens are Christians. The problems in this country isn't that "Christians" are Persecuted. The problem is that the "majority" is Persecuted for the benifit of minority interest.

AverageAmericanGuy: Keizer_Ghidorah: AverageAmericanGuy: Defeated: Evolution is Fact.

Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

*looks at the various breeds of dog, the bacteria that have become resistant to antibiotics, the finches of Galapagos, the different types of fancy goldfish, and the rest of the living world*

Hmm, looks real to me. What do you want, a Pokemon-like evolution process to happen in front of your eyes?

The sound of the ocean seems real, but it is just my brain's interpretation of the vibrations of the air. Most solid matter looks solid but is almost completely empty space.

What looks real to you does not make something the truth.

But something many people see, many people study, and many people analyze makes it more truthful than an ancient book that's the only source of something. We have countless evidence of adaptation and evolution, nothing of God's supposed miracles. If God created everything, he did a piss-poor job of it.

Aigoo: I'm a Christian and I have to say that this guy has a point. I've literally been thrown out of churches because I think abortion should be legal, I don't give a damn who you marry or sleep with (because 1 - free will and 2 - glass houses+stones=me bleeding to death from my own stupidity and asshattery on both points), believe all scientific theory should be taught as just that: theory, and firmly believe the "prosperity gospel" (as well as the Rapture) is flat-out nonsense designed to rip people off and fatten the coffers.

I won't try to convince any non-Christians that I'm right, and I will do everything in my power to respect others' beliefs. By the same token, I admit that there are times I'd appreciate the same courtesy. It is unnecessary to be deliberately offensive wh

What kind of abortion? There's a bunch of different kinds.

xaveth: Trashy: Obvious tag on hiatus?

THIS. Nothing more irritating than a farking atheist's arrogance.

Nothing more dangerous than a Christian's arrogance. The Republican party is an excellent example.

Keizer_Ghidorah: AverageAmericanGuy: Keizer_Ghidorah: AverageAmericanGuy: Defeated: Evolution is Fact.

Evolution is a theory. It's just an explanation to explain reality and subject to revision and replacement.

A fact would be something immutable and provably true. Evolution meets neither criteria.

*looks at the various breeds of dog, the bacteria that have become resistant to antibiotics, the finches of Galapagos, the different types of fancy goldfish, and the rest of the living world*

Hmm, looks real to me. What do you want, a Pokemon-like evolution process to happen in front of your eyes?

The sound of the ocean seems real, but it is just my brain's interpretation of the vibrations of the air. Most solid matter looks solid but is almost completely empty space.

What looks real to you does not make something the truth.

But something many people see, many people study, and many people analyze makes it more truthful than an ancient book that's the only source of something. We have countless evidence of adaptation and evolution, nothing of God's supposed miracles. If God created everything, he did a piss-poor job of it.

You sound like an angry, backslidden ex-Christian.

I'll pray for you to come back to the Lord.

Keizer_Ghidorah: But something many people see, many people study, and many people analyze makes it more truthful than an ancient book that's the only source of something. We have countless evidence of adaptation and evolution, nothing of God's supposed miracles. If God created everything, he did a piss-poor job of it.

The age old answer for a faith in a higher power. How bad he (Or she) farked up.

Keizer_Ghidorah: xaveth: Trashy: Obvious tag on hiatus?

THIS. Nothing more irritating than a farking atheist's arrogance.

Nothing more dangerous than a Christian's arrogance. The Republican party is an excellent example.

Not all Christians are republicans. Jimmy Carter.