Yes, the proper thing is to accept the place the Baby Boomers have decided for you and stop trying to make yourself better.

Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

Correction: Only go to law school if you are actually interested in practicing law and are ok with making $40,000 as a public defender or county prosecutor. If you're hoping to practice law to make big money, you're likely to be disappointed.

Rincewind53: Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

That's the real issue. People go to these third tier law schools and are shocked to discover that they're not getting six figure starting offers from big city law firms. It's a combination of a lack of common sense and law schools cooking the books on post-graduation employment data.

thornhill: Rincewind53: Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

That's the real issue. People go to these third tier law schools and are shocked to discover that they're not getting six figure starting offers from big city law firms. It's a combination of a lack of common sense and law schools cooking the books on post-graduation employment data.

Uh, it's not only third tier law schools facing this problem.

/attend a top 10
//only about 40% of class is getting into big law these days

Well a few good points and they made the big one:
1. Stay debt free as long as possible, ignore this advice and you will be a wage slave and be subject to the whims of management.
2. Stay the hell away from Medicine too.
3. It would not hurt to go into engineering, it can be more satisfying than other careers. Then learn how to code and test and solve word problems.
4. Do not let the women you love go into nursing, it will psychologically destroy them.
5. Stay away from banking, they not only eat their young, but also the old and those who appear weak. If Darth Vader were real he would be middle management for a large bank.

Creating a Google Alert for your own name? That sounds both narcissistic and paranoid, and yet I just did it.

It's a whore and gangster economy kids.
Don't kid yourselves otherwise.

Work hard, stay positive (and realistic), realize you arent going to land your dream job right out of school.

Im pulling for you. We are all in this together.

AKTurkey: Correction: Only go to law school if you are actually interested in practicing law and are ok with making $40,000 as a public defender or county prosecutor. If you're hoping to practice law to make big money, you're likely to be disappointed.

I like this advice. It's non-scumbag.

Other than that, I gotta say that conformity to the norm isn't all it's cracked up to be. But the world needs it's lawyers, accountants, ditch diggers. I mean, if EVERYONE became non-conformists then there would be trouble caused by the non-conformity.

RexTalionis: Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

However you cut it (and I didn't go to a great law school, but whatever), you're going to come out of it with a lot of debt, an overglutted market, a wicked drinking problem and a higher likelihood of being depressed and to abuse illicit substances or alcohol.

I'd still recommend it for engineers, provided they go evenings and work full-time as patent agents. Then you come out with no debt, a guaranteed job, a wicked drinking problem and a higher likelihood of being depressed and to abuse illicit substances or alcohol.

DamnYankees: English-speaking cities such as Hong Kong and Singapore, especially, have almost no unemployment and quickly absorb anyone qualified who lands on their shores.

This is just not true. I and some of my friends have been looking for jobs in HK for a while - the economy there is not great right now. It's ok, but hardly booming.

But the Chinese will welcome you with open arms and integrate you into their society with warmth and love while making sure you get the job you deserve with pay you need....

Sorry did I say that with a strait face? Ok how about "the chinese will at best put you in a PR job at the front desk as their on staff gwailo to show that they have western connections."

I get the feeling that the advice from this article is worth the electrons its imprinted on.

17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

Don't go to law school grad school, it's time to drop the fries, and 26 other things new college grads should know

FTFY. Unless you have a very specific career goal in a field that has a lot of well paying jobs and requires the degree (so med school is okay, veterinary school, dentistry, etc.), it's very rarely going to be worth your time to do it right out of undergrad. DEFINITELY don't do it just because you don't know what else to do with your life, or pretty soon you'll be 31, still working on your dissertation, and realizing that you made a big mistake about a decade ago that you're never really going to make up in terms of career advancement / earning potential.

/speaks from experience
//the heavy drinking was fun for the first two or three years though

HotIgneous Intruder: It's a whore and gangster economy kids.
Don't kid yourselves otherwise.

Fortunately I have a degree in Whore from Dalhousie.

Rather - don't go to law school straight out of college with no plan or knowledge of the field.

Instead, get a job in a law office as a clerk, paralegal, whatever and learn how the sausage is made. Then apply to the in-state school that everyone in the local professional community likes the best, work while taking classes, and have a post-graduation job lined up by the end of your first year.

GAT_00: Yes, the proper thing is to accept the place the Baby Boomers have decided for you and stop trying to make yourself better.

That's what my dad thinks. They have mainly assumed an authoritarian mindset to protect their piece of the pie. Boomers are the new fascists.

Once-a-year get-togethers with your college buddies? How long can that last? I think the person who wrote that just wanted to brag about his "olympics", and has done it maybe 2 or 3 times. Just wait buddy, they'll start dropping out soon. Hopefully you'll end up with the trophy, I guess.

AKTurkey: thornhill: Rincewind53: Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

That's the real issue. People go to these third tier law schools and are shocked to discover that they're not getting six figure starting offers from big city law firms. It's a combination of a lack of common sense and law schools cooking the books on post-graduation employment data.

Uh, it's not only third tier law schools facing this problem.

/attend a top 10
//only about 40% of class is getting into big law these days

If you went to a top 10 you're still a lot better off than all of the non-top 10 folks. You'll still get better clerkships. The third tier people are pretty much screwed.

I graduated law school ten years ago and finally got to the point where my future was certain about five months ago (hence my SN). If you really love the practice of law (like I do), it is worth working around the clock in mundane stuff so you can finally get a chance at a good life a decade later.

About 95% of the people I went to law school with did not fall into this category. I have seen suicides. I have seen people give up and teach third graders. I have seen people pack up all of their stuff and move to Reno to become professional gamblers. I have seen people become institutionalized. I have seen people burn out and spend their time performing magic tricks in the park.

I am not saying never do it. But don't do it because you want to be like people on television. Don't do it to impress your friends and your family. Don't do it because you think you need a grad degree and don't want to do math.

Just like anything, don't choose it because what other people think you do every day. Do it because you like what you do every day. If you are not completely convinced when you make the decision, do something else.

RexTalionis: Rincewind53: Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

However you cut it (and I didn't go to a great law school, but whatever), you're going to come out of it with a lot of debt, an overglutted market, a wicked drinking problem and a higher likelihood of being depressed and to abuse illicit substances or alcohol.

I'd still recommend it for engineers, provided they go evenings and work full-time as patent agents. Then you come out with no debt, a guaranteed job, a wicked drinking problem and a higher likelihood of being depressed and to abuse illicit substances or alcohol.

Oh jesus, yes. I know a couple of people are intending to go into patent law, both of them former engineers. Even before finals in first year are over, they essentially already have offers for 6 figure jobs.

Patent attorneys and agents - there's only, what, about 25,000 of us active at any given time? The field is tiny and the demand is huge.

This. Normal law hiring vs IP hiring is like trying to get a job as a state department translator with knowledge of french and german vs knowledge of arabic and mandarin. Both are useful, both are difficult to learn, but one is a bit harder and far more marketable.

thornhill: 17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

Agree that it's incredibly stupid advice. Credit cards are too necessary to navigate modern society to go without. Some places no longer even accept personal checks, and carrying cash in sufficient amounts to cover an emergency (e.g. the cost of an emergency flight home, if you travel) has its own risks.

Port1080: Don't go to grad school

This.

/but now my name shows up on google scholar
//on an arcane subject of no practical importance
///geology may be important, but what I studied sure wasn't
////thanks NASA grant

4. Encourage well-wishers to buy you Facebook stock.

The pump and dump is on!

I stopped considering law school when I took a free practice LSAT from kaplan or whoever. The proctor gave this big time sharey speech after the test to get us to sign up for his course. He said he knew all the tricks better than anyone, since he had a 170+ on his and had already gone through law school.

Yeah, he had his JD and was teaching undergrads how to prepare for the LSAT. That was his full time gig.

rev. dave: 4. Do not let the women you love go into nursing, it will psychologically destroy them.

SOO TRUE!!!!!
/flamed out of nursing school after one year
//still tending to the burns

Go to trade school instead. Learn a marketable, in demand skill that pays well and won't saddle you with a ton of college debt-like AC/heating repair, welding, diesel mechanic , electrician, plumber, electronics tech etc. People who can fix things will alwasy be in demand.

YixilTesiphon: Port1080: Don't go to grad school

This.

/but now my name shows up on google scholar
//on an arcane subject of no practical importance
///geology may be important, but what I studied sure wasn't
////thanks NASA grant

What did you study? Space dust?

I'm sorry but do people actually still use LinkedIn? There's no less than 3 tips there regarding it.

Nurglitch: HotIgneous Intruder: It's a whore and gangster economy kids.
Don't kid yourselves otherwise.

Fortunately I have a degree in Whore from Dalhousie.

Wouldn't it make better sense to have a degree in ass-raping, since Dal usually ass-rapes its students? Of course, Dal just sucks.

/Acadia and UWO grad
//Supposed to hate Dal on principle
///also hates Dal because they rejected me for their MLIS program, despite going above and beyond their requirements
////Come to think of it, no one who graduated from Acadia the same time I did was able to get into Dal for any program

theorangeshield: I'm sorry but do people actually still use LinkedIn? There's no less than 3 tips there regarding it.

I think people in PR and marketing use it to market themselves to each other. Otherwise...?

I stopped reading at #4.

Number 30: Learn a valuable self defense skill, be it Karate, KiK Him Lo, or trips to the range and a Kimber 45 ACP

Number 31: Go to Medical School. Flood the USA with cheap assed doctors, there will truly be drive through doc in the boxs where you stick out your tongue and say Ah. We won't need HC reform anymore and the government will go back to governing

FTFA: 4. Encourage well-wishers to buy you Facebook stock.

Aaaaand I stopped reading.

As if the first three weren't dumb enough.

thornhill: 17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

There is absolutely no need for a credit card. The wife and I never used one and we had good enough 'credit' to buy a house and a car. If you get an apartment and make rent payments and start paying utilities you won't need a credit card.

HotIgneous Intruder: YixilTesiphon: Port1080: Don't go to grad school

This.

/but now my name shows up on google scholar
//on an arcane subject of no practical importance
///geology may be important, but what I studied sure wasn't
////thanks NASA grant

What did you study? Space dust?

Tektites.

theorangeshield: I'm sorry but do people actually still use LinkedIn? There's no less than 3 tips there regarding it.

I've been told that it's significantly more popular on the West Coast than anywhere else in the country.

hasty ambush: Go to trade school instead. Learn a marketable, in demand skill that pays well and won't saddle you with a ton of college debt-like AC/heating repair, welding, diesel mechanic , electrician, plumber, electronics tech etc. People who can fix things will alwasy be in demand.

[dsc.discovery.com image 324x205]

Yes. Yes, yes yes. Not everyone needs to go to college and god knows not everyone deserves to go to college. No shame in trade school at all - and if you're worried about it, don't be: there is money to be made.

rev. dave: Well a few good points and they made the big one:
1. Stay debt free as long as possible, ignore this advice and you will be a wage slave and be subject to the whims of management.
2. Stay the hell away from Medicine too.
3. It would not hurt to go into engineering, it can be more satisfying than other careers. Then learn how to code and test and solve word problems.
4. Do not let the women you love go into nursing, it will psychologically destroy them.
5. Stay away from banking, they not only eat their young, but also the old and those who appear weak. If Darth Vader were real he would be middle management for a large bank.

Additional points, from my personal experience:

1. Stay away from advanced degrees in the physical sciences, namely molecular biology. The Money is making a concerted effort to hire younger and younger, even opening up positions for high school graduates. Anything higher than a master's will price you out of the job market.

2. If you ignore #1, you'll have no trouble getting a job as a postdoc. It's great. As long as you weren't hoping for perks like, say, unemployment insurance or accrued vacation hours or sick days, or any sort of retirement package. Read the fine print on the grant award, if you can afford to. Hope the 5 years of grad school were worth it.

3. Funding rates for the NIH RO1 grant, the quintessential 4-year government grant for scientists in academia, are at a whopping 6-8%. This means that 92-94% of applicants are turned down annually. Bear in mind that most universities won't even hire you as a professor without at least one of these grants (or its financial equivalent). This also means that excellent, not just good or "qualified", but excellent scientists are being driven out of research by a funding shortage.

4. If you do manage to make it into academia, the shortage of state funding has resulted in universities taking anywhere from 50-80% of the gross amount off the annual for "overhead costs". Essentially, whatever success you have as a scientist will be used to force you to act as the "launderer" between the federal funding agency and the university.

5. There is an entire generation of scientists, both technicians and postdocs, unable to advance further in their careers. There are countless former professors that can't find work. ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE COMPETING FOR THE SAME AVAILABLE POSITIONS.

Ivory tower leftist intellectuals, my ass. The Republicans should envy the way greed and incompetence has driven academia into the ground.

theorangeshield: I'm sorry but do people actually still use LinkedIn? There's no less than 3 tips there regarding it.

I've networked through LinkedIn and got one person a job through my connections. However, I mainly use it to look up hiring managers and people who work at companies I want to work at, so I would be better prepared when I go in for the interview. It helps to know if you're too over/under-qualified compared with other people on the future team, or even so then you can share in talking about job history in a conversation with your future boss. I keep my profile public for that reason too; not embarrassed about my history.

I only saw one really good piece of advice in that article and that is to continue (or start if you werent in college) to be social. Who you know is very very important in being successful and advancing your career. Get involved in your community or sports, hit the same bar with the same couple of friends every week, talk to your neighbors. It's probably the most valuable thing you can do.

1. Buy low, sell high.
2. Never pet a burning dog.

jfivealive: I only saw one really good piece of advice in that article and that is to continue (or start if you werent in college) to be social. Who you know is very very important in being successful and advancing your career. Get involved in your community or sports, hit the same bar with the same couple of friends every week, talk to your neighbors. It's probably the most valuable thing you can do.

That is good advice, probably the only thing I agree from that list. At the end of the day, why do we work? It's just so we can enjoy the social connections we already have (family, friends, community). Plus, they can help you find a job or at least a bed to sleep on when you get kicked out on your unemployed arse.

15. If you can, make your 401(k) contributions Roth IRA-style rather than traditional. When you withdraw the money in retirement (many, many years from now) you will not have to pay income tax on it.

Can someone explain this logic to me? Why would you want to pay taxes on it NOW, when you're working and are in a higher tax bracket, than later, when you're retired, have virtually no income, and have a low tax rate?

kukukupo: thornhill: 17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

There is absolutely no need for a credit card. The wife and I never used one and we had good enough 'credit' to buy a house and a car. If you get an apartment and make rent payments and start paying utilities you won't need a credit card.

Utility payments and rent don't show up positively on your credit report - the only way they show up is as a negative (i.e. if you rack up a large debt, don't pay it, and they report you - paying late, as long as it's too late, won't hurt you like it will with a credit card, because these places don't typically report late payments, too much hassle). Car payments do show up, though - I'm wondering if you bought the car first, and then the house? I'd be somewhat surprised if you got approved for a mortgage with no real credit history, but I guess if your proven income was good enough and you didn't have any negatives, you might be okay.

"17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years."

Done, and now 10 years later... i have NO credit.

no bad credit, and no good credit.

24. Those dick pics you posted that time you were drunk and the "hottie" you were chatting with said "show me your junk!" doesn't seem like such a good idea now, does it, dumbass?

More of the wrong thinking. At some point people started assuming that having a degree guaranteed you something. Having a degree doesn't get you a job - it gets you an interview. You still have to be smart, professional, and able to contribute.

Don't buy a new car.

Here is something I'll add to the list :

1. NEVER, under any circumstances buy the book for a college class before the first day of classes. 50% of the time the professor won't use the book. For those 50% who do use the book 25% of the time it is only as a reference. In this day and age, the book is usually available online for an ebook rental for $15-25 compared to the $200 hardcover version.

If you need the book, do one of two things:

A. Buy it from Amazon.com or BarnesandNoble.com. If you have homework due and can't wait for the book to come in, go to the school book store and take a picture of the page with the homework questions on it for that week.

B. Check the return policy of your bookstore. Buy the book and take it home and take pictures/scan the book. This takes about 1-2 hours and can save you up to $200. It is worth your time. Then, return the book. (same or next day is best)

Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

However you cut it (and I didn't go to a great law school, but whatever), you're going to come out of it with a lot of debt, an overglutted market, a wicked drinking problem and a higher likelihood of being depressed and to abuse illicit substances or alcohol.

That's true. I just meant that the people saying "If you go to law school, you will not get a job, your life will be terrible" are exaggerating.

you have to really want to be a lawyer. It's not fun work, and it's easy to get stuck as a lawyer for the rest of your life.

/ worked hard, got a job
// oh well, i get to wear a suit everyday.
/// fortunately, I never expected that a job could ever be satisfying, fulfilling, or fun. So, being a lawyer is about as miserable as any other job. it just costs more upfront.

stiletto_the_wise: 15. If you can, make your 401(k) contributions Roth IRA-style rather than traditional. When you withdraw the money in retirement (many, many years from now) you will not have to pay income tax on it.

Can someone explain this logic to me? Why would you want to pay taxes on it NOW, when you're working and are in a higher tax bracket, than later, when you're retired, have virtually no income, and have a low tax rate?

It's really a bet on a) how much you'll have/draw in retirement and b) where you think tax rates are going.

You can hedge your bets with a traditional 401k and a Roth IRA or vice versa.

stiletto_the_wise: 15. If you can, make your 401(k) contributions Roth IRA-style rather than traditional. When you withdraw the money in retirement (many, many years from now) you will not have to pay income tax on it.

Can someone explain this logic to me? Why would you want to pay taxes on it NOW, when you're working and are in a higher tax bracket, than later, when you're retired, have virtually no income, and have a low tax rate?

Taxes are pretty low right now, probably will be higher by the time you retire. Also, starting out in a new job you're probably not in a very high tax bracket. It really depends on your situation, though. If you turned that 5 year engineering BA / MA into an $80k job right out of college, a Roth might not make that much sense.

cgraves67: Creating a Google Alert for your own name? That sounds both narcissistic and paranoid, and yet I just did it.

Seeing as how my name is Mike Smith, I think I'll skip that one.

Attention Boomer-Bashers: Be nice to the people you meet on the way up.
You'll meet them again someday on the way down. Now I'm off to my job of helping mainly young people to find employment.Please finish H.S.,or at least get a GED. It's hard enough matching you with work as it is.

PYTHON???!?!? The recommended learning PYTHON!?!?! What, should you learn FORTRAN and QBasic as well? Good lord, get with the times ...

Rincewind53: AKTurkey: Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

Correction: Only go to law school if you are actually interested in practicing law and are ok with making $40,000 as a public defender or county prosecutor. If you're hoping to practice law to make big money, you're likely to be disappointed.

Yep. That's my job this summer.

Come to the Light Side. We make more and you get to sleep at night knowing you're not defending a rapist.

improvius: cgraves67: Creating a Google Alert for your own name? That sounds both narcissistic and paranoid, and yet I just did it.

Seeing as how my name is Mike Smith, I think I'll skip that one.

I'm not sure if I'm blessed or cursed that my parents gave me an incredibly common name (not quite as common as Mike Smith, but close). On top of that, it's shared by a fairly well known B-list actor, so it's nearly impossible to search for me without my middle initial (and even then, there are at least a dozen with the same initial out there). I've done pretty well with protecting my online reputation, but even if I hadn't, it's a nice thing to be able to blend into the crowd...

Lane83: Rincewind53: AKTurkey: Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

Correction: Only go to law school if you are actually interested in practicing law and are ok with making $40,000 as a public defender or county prosecutor. If you're hoping to practice law to make big money, you're likely to be disappointed.

Yep. That's my job this summer.

Come to the Light Side. We make more and you get to sleep at night knowing you're not defending a rapist putting cops telling lies on the stand; hiding exculpatory evidence; and offering "deals" to innocent, poor, minorities to plead guilty and get probation in exchange for avoiding jail, thus creating a permanent underclass of convicts, unemployable except for menial labor.

FTFY.

Rincewind53: We make less, but you get to sleep at night knowing you're not perpetuating a system that systematically discriminates against poor and minority populations.

You are still in law school, I take it.

FeFiFoFark: 1. Buy low, sell high.
2. Never pet a burning dog.

3. Never date a girl named after a city.

seadoo2006: PYTHON???!?!? The recommended learning PYTHON!?!?! What, should you learn FORTRAN and QBasic as well? Good lord, get with the times ...

Well, it is the easiest language I can think of, so it least it won't take up too much of your time to do it.

/banks still hire people for COBOL
//but that's the only archaic language I can think of that does so

While we're complaining about law school, I finish my MBA in two semesters. I didn't pay a cent for it (employer reimburses expensed), and I'm pretty happy in my current job. I took the program as sort of an exercise. What do people DO with the silly things?

theorangeshield: I'm sorry but do people actually still use LinkedIn? There's no less than 3 tips there regarding it.

landed my current job when a recruiter found me on there. She said it was the only place she looked for good candidates anymore. Work in marketing research so not sure if this applies to other fields.

Is it me, or did the article read like a list of how to be social and bro/sis out with your friends because they'll give you jobs? I hate lists like these because it tells me that introverted individuals, like myself, will die jobless and alone unlike those golden-child extroverts.

Has social media accelerated the need for us to be slap happy with everyone? Some days it seems that linkedin post, facebook status update, or any kind of notice I run across has become an "advertisement" for the poster. And all it says is, "Hire me."

RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

I'm an adjunct law professor at a top 20 law school. Many of my students - even the very bright ones with good 1L grades - didn't get 2L summer jobs (which is the traditional way to get the foot in the door).

It's a very, very tough market for recent law school grads these days. And forget the "go to law school only if you're OK with doing the $40k public defender" thing - even those gigs are hard to get.

What was the tag line from the movie "War Games"?

I'll never regret having obtained my JD. But I'd rather be a park ranger or rafting guide. This work is seriously depressing, though occasionally enormously uplifting, but I'll be damned if I do it the rest of my life.

The only real reward I get of it is pro bono work, which I imagine I will do the rest of my life.

fireclown: While we're complaining about law school, I finish my MBA in two semesters. I didn't pay a cent for it (employer reimburses expensed), and I'm pretty happy in my current job. I took the program as sort of an exercise. What do people DO with the silly things?

My parents use it to tell their friends that their son has an MBA. I don't really do anything with it.

"He's on LinkedIn! He might as well be dead!"

beantowndog: Ruin the economy.

Indeed.

Link

kukukupo: thornhill: 17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

There is absolutely no need for a credit card. The wife and I never used one and we had good enough 'credit' to buy a house and a car. If you get an apartment and make rent payments and start paying utilities you won't need a credit card.

So you buy everything in cash or check (which few people accept)?

And if you say you use a debit card, that's a big mistake. If the card number is stolen, the money is directly debited from your bank account. Now obviously if you can demonstrate to the bank that the card was stolen you can get the money back, but when this happens with a credit card, your actual savings are never affected.

Further, what if you have to put a large deposit down? You really want that tying up your personal finances?

Lastly, the rewards some cards offer do have tangible value. My card gives me frequent flyer miles. It's helped me earn about 100,000 miles in the last two years from purchases I've made with it. That translates into $1,000 of free airfare.

Lane83: Come to the Light Side. We make more and you get to sleep at night knowing you're not defending a rapist.

Aaaand this is another shining example of why I hate prosecutors.

FTA: "Daniel Fisher, our expert on the world of law, says:

6. Pick where you want to work and take any job you can get there. Smart people will rise in any organization."

Sounds like a lawyer.

hasty ambush: Go to trade school instead. Learn a marketable, in demand skill that pays well and won't saddle you with a ton of college debt-like AC/heating repair, welding, diesel mechanic , electrician, plumber, electronics tech..............]

Electronics Tech is not what it sounds like. Any monkey can replace a circuit board these days.

Skwrl: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

What was the tag line from the movie "War Games"?

In love, there are no boundaries

emarche: hasty ambush: Go to trade school instead. Learn a marketable, in demand skill that pays well and won't saddle you with a ton of college debt-like AC/heating repair, welding, diesel mechanic , electrician, plumber, electronics tech etc. People who can fix things will alwasy be in demand.

[dsc.discovery.com image 324x205]

Yes. Yes, yes yes. Not everyone needs to go to college and god knows not everyone deserves to go to college. No shame in trade school at all - and if you're worried about it, don't be: there is money to be made.

Those are all "shiat jobs working from some other asshole" the only way out is through self employment. Obviously, that takes a good idea and motivation to get it done.

stiletto_the_wise: 15. If you can, make your 401(k) contributions Roth IRA-style rather than traditional. When you withdraw the money in retirement (many, many years from now) you will not have to pay income tax on it.

Can someone explain this logic to me? Why would you want to pay taxes on it NOW, when you're working and are in a higher tax bracket, than later, when you're retired, have virtually no income, and have a low tax rate?

That would be logical if the only thing to consider was the principal - however the earnings and growth are all also tax free.

Example: I put $100 in a Roth IRA today paying the full 28% (or whatever) on the $120+ I had to earn to put $100 away. 30 years from now that $100 has grown to $400 - I can withdraw that $400 without additional tax. My effective tax rate is now $28 on $300 of income or less than 10%.

Rapmaster2000:
/banks still hire people for COBOL
//but that's the only archaic language I can think of that does so

Well vb and vb script should qualify as arcane now. Used in QTP, I don't know a single developer who uses it outside of automated testing.

7. Be annoyingly proactive to land your first job. Don't just send a CV, but follow up with a phone call, and give the person that answers examples of how you will actually help their organization.

Don't resort to this unless it comes naturally. It's fine if you want to be annoying all the time and work with annoying people who expect you to be annoying and will grade your performance based on how annoying you are. If you're annoying you'll get hired by people who NEED you to be annoying. They won't let you stop. And they'll be annoying themselves.

If competent people in your field generally look down on this kind of behavior, then you cannot get jobs in your field this way.

Port1080: Taxes are pretty low right now, probably will be higher by the time you retire. Also, starting out in a new job you're probably not in a very high tax bracket. It really depends on your situation, though. If you turned that 5 year engineering BA / MA into an $80k job right out of college, a Roth might not make that much sense.

I agree it probably depends on your situation, but when was the last time tax rates actually went up significantly? Not in my lifetime or my parents' lifetimes.

I suspect that most people's effective tax rate goes down throughout their life. You start out with only your labor (which is taxed at the highest rate). Then, as you get older more and more of your income is shielded from taxes (capital gains, access to deductions such as mortgage interest, etc.) I bet most of us will be paying a far lower tax rate once we retire and are unemployed than now when we're working.

Port1080: kukukupo: thornhill: 17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

There is absolutely no need for a credit card. The wife and I never used one and we had good enough 'credit' to buy a house and a car. If you get an apartment and make rent payments and start paying utilities you won't need a credit card.

Utility payments and rent don't show up positively on your credit report - the only way they show up is as a negative (i.e. if you rack up a large debt, don't pay it, and they report you - paying late, as long as it's too late, won't hurt you like it will with a credit card, because these places don't typically report late payments, too much hassle). Car payments do show up, though - I'm wondering if you bought the car first, and then the house? I'd be somewhat surprised if you got approved for a mortgage with no real credit history, but I guess if your proven income was good enough and you didn't have any negatives, you might be okay.

It depends if you bought your house before or after 2008, cost of the house, how much you put down, and income.

Before 2008 it didn't take much to qualify for a mortgage -- that's why we had a financial collapse. Now banks actually have much higher standards -- NPR recently did a story on renters wanting to buy homes but being unable to qualify for a mortgage because their credit history was so week.

Also, when I bought my first car out of college, I had a pretty thin credit history because the only thing on my credit report was my credit card. The only reason I got a good deal on the financing was because Honda was desperate to move inventory (Honda financing gave me a much more favorable rate than any other lender).

If a bridge is worth burning, light that mofo up. Keeping people in your life that are a drain on your psyche is an end-result net-loss after ALL is said and done. Chances are they are likely talking constant sh*t about you anyway, especially when it seems you're getting along okay.

Just make peace with the fact that your degree, no matter what it is in or how advanced it is, still means you have to start at the bottom in whatever field you pursue.

UnspokenVoice: Err... No comments on the error in the headline?

Improper capitalization?

umad: Port1080: stiletto_the_wise: 15. If you can, make your 401(k) contributions Roth IRA-style rather than traditional. When you withdraw the money in retirement (many, many years from now) you will not have to pay income tax on it.

Can someone explain this logic to me? Why would you want to pay taxes on it NOW, when you're working and are in a higher tax bracket, than later, when you're retired, have virtually no income, and have a low tax rate?

Taxes are pretty low right now, probably will be higher by the time you retire. Also, starting out in a new job you're probably not in a very high tax bracket. It really depends on your situation, though. If you turned that 5 year engineering BA / MA into an $80k job right out of college, a Roth might not make that much sense.

No. Everybody that qualifies for a Roth should do a Roth. When you pay the taxes up front, you don't have to pay them later on all of the interest your money earns as it sits there for 20+ years.

You also don't get to use a traditional 401k lower your AGI which qualifies you for certain education and child related tax credits/deductions nor do you get to deduct traditional IRA deductions.

It's not as simple a proposition as you outlined. I would recommend everyone run the numbers, think about the breaks you qualify for/need now, and factor in their personal assumptions about both their future tax rates and the total they'll sock away.

AKTurkey: Skwrl: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

What was the tag line from the movie "War Games"?

In love, there are no boundaries

Damn, I must have mis-remembered it. I thought it was "Laugh. Cry. Share The Pants." My bad.

>> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

RexTalionis: Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

However you cut it (and I didn't go to a great law school, but whatever), you're going to come out of it with a lot of debt, an overglutted market, a wicked drinking problem and a higher likelihood of being depressed and to abuse illicit substances or alcohol.

OK, so I'm not alone.

The only recommendation I suppose I have, for those potential lawyers out there, is that you should plan on hanging your own shingle rather than getting hired. And plan early. You don't need overhead to start; you can meet clients at a coffee shop (but again, plan early, because you'll need paralegal-type knowledge).

For example, if you want to work in environmental law, get familiar with current and ongoing cases that the state environmental agency has already done research on. Then use that to find potential clients. Don't break any ethics laws on solicitation by the way, wink wink.

Fizpez: Example: I put $100 in a Roth IRA today paying the full 28% (or whatever) on the $120+ I had to earn to put $100 away. 30 years from now that $100 has grown to $400 - I can withdraw that $400 without additional tax. My effective tax rate is now $28 on $300 of income or less than 10%.

Good point. Counter-example:

I put the full $120 I made pre-tax into a traditional IRA. It grows at the same rate and is $480 when I retire. Assume I'm at 15% when I retire (although if the last 50-years of tax history are a trend, that's pretty high), so I'm paying $72 in taxes ending up with $408.

So it's pretty much the same thing, with a lot of upside in the likely event tax rates go down.

I think the best advice is be prepared to work in a field completely different than what you majored in, and don't hesitate to apply for a job that was way outside of your major. Except for highly specialized work, when it comes to entry level jobs, no one really cares what your major was.

I'm a current 2L and would recommend NOT going to school for about 75% of people interested in obtaining a JD. I was luckily enough to go into the service after college and therefore the post 9/11 GI Bill takes care of about 80% of my tuition costs, not to mention 1300 bucks a month living expenses. More important than top 20 school v. everywhere else is location. I go to Phoenix School of Law (re: nowhere near the top anything) but because the Phoenix market isn't saturated with law schools (other than ASU law) we have a long list of summer employers seeking students out directly at our school. Most of the jobs pay 12-18$ per hr....so not too bad in the grand scheme of things. As somebody stated above, an grad degree gets you an interview but that's about it in today's job market. Unfortunately many of my classmates will graduate with 150-200k in loans and don't have the resume nor the pedigree to get the kind of fancy lawyering job everybody thinks are available.

Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

Despite this, my company has been struggling to find skilled software engineers, across all experience levels, for as long as I've worked there. Apparently they all work for Google and Apple.

GAT_00: Yes, the proper thing is to accept the place the Baby Boomers have decided for you and stop trying to make yourself better.

First piece of advice: Your degree does not make you a better person.

Second piece of advice: If you want to succeed, you need a skill. Fortunately, it's possible to cultivate a skill in almost any field of study. I hope you have been doing this.

thornhill: I think the best advice is be prepared to work in a field completely different than what you majored in, and don't hesitate to apply for a job that was way outside of your major. Except for highly specialized work, when it comes to entry level jobs, no one really cares what your major was.

That's just not true. One of the things I've learned in trying to break away from law as a job rather than something I only do pro bono is that they see your qualifications, then see you're a lawyer and dump you in the "likely to quit this shiatty outdoors job in the next two months" box. Even though that's what I want to do more than anything: be back outdoors.

stiletto_the_wise: So it's pretty much the same thing, with a lot of upside in the likely event tax rates go down.

And this, ultimately, is the real difference between traditional and Roth IRAs: you use the former if you think your particular tax rates will go down over time, and the latter if you think your tax rates will go up over time. Personally, I predict that mine will go up, so I use a Roth.

stiletto_the_wise: Port1080: Taxes are pretty low right now, probably will be higher by the time you retire. Also, starting out in a new job you're probably not in a very high tax bracket. It really depends on your situation, though. If you turned that 5 year engineering BA / MA into an $80k job right out of college, a Roth might not make that much sense.

I agree it probably depends on your situation, but when was the last time tax rates actually went up significantly? Not in my lifetime or my parents' lifetimes.

I suspect that most people's effective tax rate goes down throughout their life. You start out with only your labor (which is taxed at the highest rate). Then, as you get older more and more of your income is shielded from taxes (capital gains, access to deductions such as mortgage interest, etc.) I bet most of us will be paying a far lower tax rate once we retire and are unemployed than now when we're working.

US Government debt is obscenely large and tax rates are at historic lows. Taxes are not going to go down.

stiletto_the_wise: Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

Despite this, my company has been struggling to find skilled software engineers, across all experience levels, for as long as I've worked there. Apparently they all work for Google and Apple.

Yeah, companies are looking for top talent at entry level salaries. No thanks.

stiletto_the_wise: Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

Despite this, my company has been struggling to find skilled software engineers, across all experience levels, for as long as I've worked there. Apparently they all work for Google and Apple.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sure they are. You couldn't say it on the interwebs if it wasn't true.

RexTalionis: If this law thing doesn't work out, I'm going to lose 600 pounds and join the military.

Are you my long lost twin or something? I've thought about trying to join the military. I'm probably too old for a waiver though.

seadoo2006: PYTHON???!?!? The recommended learning PYTHON!?!?! What, should you learn FORTRAN and QBasic as well? Good lord, get with the times ...

No, no, wait; don't tell me: you're a Ruby fanboi.

Am I good or what?

Skwrl: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

I'm an adjunct law professor at a top 20 law school. Many of my students - even the very bright ones with good 1L grades - didn't get 2L summer jobs (which is the traditional way to get the foot in the door).

It's a very, very tough market for recent law school grads these days. And forget the "go to law school only if you're OK with doing the $40k public defender" thing - even those gigs are hard to get.

What was the tag line from the movie "War Games"?

"Your wife??"

Tumeric: stiletto_the_wise: Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

Despite this, my company has been struggling to find skilled software engineers, across all experience levels, for as long as I've worked there. Apparently they all work for Google and Apple.

Yeah, companies are looking for top talent at entry level salaries. No thanks.

He's just shortage shouting. You gotta do that if you want those h-1b quotas to stay high.

Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

But Bob16, we NEED moar young people in science!!!!

/Cause they'll work for next to nothing
//And don't know enough to complain
///Or we'll get an H2 to do it

UnspokenVoice: AKTurkey: UnspokenVoice: Err... No comments on the error in the headline?

Improper capitalization?

Hmm... Can't tell if serious? (Whilst that may well be true, it isn't the error that I speak of.)

The numbering is fine if that's what you mean.

"28 Other Pearls"

clip - information technology has turned into one of the biggest job-growth disappointments of all time.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_39/b4002001.htm

No Shortage of Technical People

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-science-engineer-jobs _ N.htm

Ok- honest question. What advice would you give to a second year PhD student in biomedical science? I love research but is it time to leave for something else while the boat is still sinking?

Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: I think the best advice is be prepared to work in a field completely different than what you majored in, and don't hesitate to apply for a job that was way outside of your major. Except for highly specialized work, when it comes to entry level jobs, no one really cares what your major was.

That's just not true. One of the things I've learned in trying to break away from law as a job rather than something I only do pro bono is that they see your qualifications, then see you're a lawyer and dump you in the "likely to quit this shiatty outdoors job in the next two months" box. Even though that's what I want to do more than anything: be back outdoors.

That's a pretty extreme examples. I don't there are many people with law degrees trying to get a $23k job raking leaves.

kukukupo: thornhill: 17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

There is absolutely no need for a credit card. The wife and I never used one and we had good enough 'credit' to buy a house and a car. If you get an apartment and make rent payments and start paying utilities you won't need a credit card.


Credit cards are a form of insurance for you. When you buy anything, especially online, there's always a risk that someone can gain access to your account. Better that the money in that account belongs to someone else so that you don't wake up tomorrow to find your checking account empty. Also, credit cards provide protection against a seller who fails to deliver what was agreed upon. While the issue is being resolved, you are not out any money. Finally, a credit card is a good idea to have around in case your car, the refrigerator, the oil burner, and the plumbing all fail in the same week. Sure it's better to have a big wad of cash set aside for emergencies, but for young people just starting out, this is unrealistic.

HotIgneous Intruder: GAT_00: Yes, the proper thing is to accept the place the Baby Boomers have decided for you and stop trying to make yourself better.

That's what my dad thinks. They have mainly assumed an authoritarian mindset to protect their piece of the pie. Boomers are the new fascists.

Which is why you should go into financial asset management, convince the Boomers you are a whiz kid, will get them 30-40% return on their investments and then just steal all the money, bury it in a safe place, do your jail time and live the rest of your life quietly off the money.

thornhill: Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: I think the best advice is be prepared to work in a field completely different than what you majored in, and don't hesitate to apply for a job that was way outside of your major. Except for highly specialized work, when it comes to entry level jobs, no one really cares what your major was.

That's just not true. One of the things I've learned in trying to break away from law as a job rather than something I only do pro bono is that they see your qualifications, then see you're a lawyer and dump you in the "likely to quit this shiatty outdoors job in the next two months" box. Even though that's what I want to do more than anything: be back outdoors.

That's a pretty extreme examples. I don't there are many people with law degrees trying to get a $23k job raking leaves.

I probably wasn't specific enough; I'd mentioned it above. I want to be a rafting guide or park ranger (interpreter, not enforcer) for the BLM. Over and over I've been found "Best Qualified," then sent to the hiring authority to be snubbed. And I'm not picky about location.

If I wanted to just rake leaves, I'd create my own business.

thornhill: Real issue. People go to these third tier law schools and are shocked to discover that they're not getting six figure starting offers from big city law firms. It's a combination of a lack of common sense and law schools cooking the books on post-graduation employment data.

At least law schools have to publish something resembling post-graduation employment data. Grad schools don't, and it makes it notoriously difficult for a prospective grad student to know just how marketable his/her degree will be, especially if that degree is a PhD.

thornhill: I don't there are many people with law degrees trying to get a $23k job raking leaves.

Also: 1.) you'd be surprised and 2.) that's exactly what I'm talking about.

born_yesterday: Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

But Bob16, we NEED moar young people in science!!!!

/Cause they'll work for next to nothing
//And don't know enough to complain
///Or we'll get an H2 to do it
_____________________________________________

What i like is when we see an article that describes somebody with a non-technical degree that can't find work and people show up and start calling that person and idiot for not getting a technical degree which would have "surely" led to a job.

In reality nobody is more stupid than the people that have been oblivious to the death of technical work in america. It died out way back in 2001 ( dot com meltdown ) and here they are 11 years later still clueless.

Millennium: And this, ultimately, is the real difference between traditional and Roth IRAs: you use the former if you think your particular tax rates will go down over time, and the latter if you think your tax rates will go up over time. Personally, I predict that mine will go up, so I use a Roth.

Wow, I never thought I'd say this, but thanks for the good discussion guys, I actually feel smarter having participated in a Fark thread. This has to be a first!

FizixJunkee: thornhill: Real issue. People go to these third tier law schools and are shocked to discover that they're not getting six figure starting offers from big city law firms. It's a combination of a lack of common sense and law schools cooking the books on post-graduation employment data.

At least law schools have to publish something resembling post-graduation employment data. Grad schools don't, and it makes it notoriously difficult for a prospective grad student to know just how marketable his/her degree will be, especially if that degree is a PhD.

Well, I think what people need to remember is that in the long run, you're better off with advance degree -- average wage date clearly shows. There's this expectation that once you graduate there are going to be all of these offers with great salaries. The first few years out of grad school might give you feelings of regret, but eventually you'll apply for a job where having a graduate degree is a strict qualification.

Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: I think the best advice is be prepared to work in a field completely different than what you majored in, and don't hesitate to apply for a job that was way outside of your major. Except for highly specialized work, when it comes to entry level jobs, no one really cares what your major was.

That's just not true. One of the things I've learned in trying to break away from law as a job rather than something I only do pro bono is that they see your qualifications, then see you're a lawyer and dump you in the "likely to quit this shiatty outdoors job in the next two months" box. Even though that's what I want to do more than anything: be back outdoors.

That's a pretty extreme examples. I don't there are many people with law degrees trying to get a $23k job raking leaves.

I probably wasn't specific enough; I'd mentioned it above. I want to be a rafting guide or park ranger (interpreter, not enforcer) for the BLM. Over and over I've been found "Best Qualified," then sent to the hiring authority to be snubbed. And I'm not picky about location.

If I wanted to just rake leaves, I'd create my own business.

Can you really blame an employer for being skeptical about why such a highly skilled person wants to do such a menial job?

cgraves67: Creating a Google Alert for your own name? That sounds both narcissistic and paranoid, and yet I just did it.

Yeah, that was a genuinely good piece of advice. The rest is standard stuff.

DamnYankees: English-speaking cities such as Hong Kong and Singapore, especially, have almost no unemployment and quickly absorb anyone qualified who lands on their shores.

This is just not true. I and some of my friends have been looking for jobs in HK for a while - the economy there is not great right now. It's ok, but hardly booming.

Now, I don't know your friends, but I think the OP does make provision for the 'non-absorption' under anyone qualified clause. Not saying your friends are or are not qualified for something, it's just that it's likely that something isn't a qualification that's HK is now accepting.

I could be the most skilled dog sled driver in the world but still not be able to find a job if I moved to HK, just saying...

kukukupo:
There is absolutely no need for a credit card. The wife and I never used one and we had good enough 'credit' to buy a house and a car. If you get an apartment and make rent payments and start paying utilities you won't need a credit card.

On-time rent and utility payments don't get reported to the credit bureaus. You need some positive stuff on your record, which is where the credit cards come in.

\has about $70K in available credit on credit cards
\\pays all of 'em in full each and every month
\\\perfect credit score

RexTalionis: thornhill: That's a pretty extreme examples. I don't there are many people with law degrees trying to get a $23k job raking leaves.

I know a guy with a law degree who is waiting tables in Chicago. Why he decided to spend a ton of money to move halfway across the country to wait tables in a big city rather than stay with his parents and wait table (and save on cost of living), I have no idea.

My original point was that you shouldn't limit your job hunt to what your degree was in, so I really don't see what this whole line of argument has to do with that.

born_yesterday:

Additional points, from my personal experience:

1. Stay away from advanced degrees in the physical sciences, namely molecular biology. The Money is making a concerted effort to hire younger and younger, even opening up positions for high school graduates. Anything higher than a master's will price you out of the job market.

2. If you ignore #1, you'll have no trouble getting a job as a postdoc. It's great. As long as you weren't hoping for perks like, say, unemployment insurance or accrued vacation hours or sick days, or any sort of retirement package. Read the fine print on the grant award, if you can afford to. Hope the 5 years of grad school were worth it.

3. Funding rates for the NIH RO1 grant, the quintessential 4-year government grant for scientists in academia, are at a whopping 6-8%. This means that 92-94% of applicants are turned down annually. Bear in mind that most universities won't even hire you as a professor without at least one of these grants (or its financial equivalent). This also means that excellent, not just good or "qualified", but excellent scientists are being driven out of research by a funding shortage.

4. If you do manage to make it into academia, the shortage of state funding has resulted in universities taking anywhere from 50-80% of the gross amount off the annual for "overhead cost ...


Aside from referring to molecular biology as a "physical science"---we physicists and engineers frown upon such shenanigans---you're advice is pretty much spot-on.

Jubeebee: Credit cards aren't free money, and I don't know why people have a hard time grasping that. Your budget is the money in your bank account, not your credit limit. They aren't the same thing. Regularly charging more on your card than you can pay off at the end of the month seems stupid. Doesn't matter if your standing balance is "low", or it only takes you two or three months to pay it off. You're still paying 10-20% interest on it.

Right. It's first and foremost a payment device. And in a worst case scenario, an emergency line of credit.

thornhill: Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: I think the best advice is be prepared to work in a field completely different than what you majored in, and don't hesitate to apply for a job that was way outside of your major. Except for highly specialized work, when it comes to entry level jobs, no one really cares what your major was.

That's just not true. One of the things I've learned in trying to break away from law as a job rather than something I only do pro bono is that they see your qualifications, then see you're a lawyer and dump you in the "likely to quit this shiatty outdoors job in the next two months" box. Even though that's what I want to do more than anything: be back outdoors.

That's a pretty extreme examples. I don't there are many people with law degrees trying to get a $23k job raking leaves.

I probably wasn't specific enough; I'd mentioned it above. I want to be a rafting guide or park ranger (interpreter, not enforcer) for the BLM. Over and over I've been found "Best Qualified," then sent to the hiring authority to be snubbed. And I'm not picky about location.

If I wanted to just rake leaves, I'd create my own business.

Can you really blame an employer for being skeptical about why such a highly skilled person wants to do such a menial job?

Yeah, I can, because I'm a highly skilled rafter and outdoorsman. These aren't menial jobs; I'm not trying to clean toilets or rake the freaking yard. But they assume that I'm just on a joyride to the next huge paycheck or something. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

I never went in to law to be the next Cochran and rake in the big dough. But now that I have the degree and license, the type of attitude you display is common.

Port1080: stiletto_the_wise: Port1080: Taxes are pretty low right now, probably will be higher by the time you retire. Also, starting out in a new job you're probably not in a very high tax bracket. It really depends on your situation, though. If you turned that 5 year engineering BA / MA into an $80k job right out of college, a Roth might not make that much sense.

I agree it probably depends on your situation, but when was the last time tax rates actually went up significantly? Not in my lifetime or my parents' lifetimes.

I suspect that most people's effective tax rate goes down throughout their life. You start out with only your labor (which is taxed at the highest rate). Then, as you get older more and more of your income is shielded from taxes (capital gains, access to deductions such as mortgage interest, etc.) I bet most of us will be paying a far lower tax rate once we retire and are unemployed than now when we're working.

US Government debt is obscenely large and tax rates are at historic lows. Taxes are not going to go down.

do you understand the phrase "effective tax rate"?

Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: Salt Lick Steady: thornhill: I think the best advice is be prepared to work in a field completely different than what you majored in, and don't hesitate to apply for a job that was way outside of your major. Except for highly specialized work, when it comes to entry level jobs, no one really cares what your major was.

That's just not true. One of the things I've learned in trying to break away from law as a job rather than something I only do pro bono is that they see your qualifications, then see you're a lawyer and dump you in the "likely to quit this shiatty outdoors job in the next two months" box. Even though that's what I want to do more than anything: be back outdoors.

That's a pretty extreme examples. I don't there are many people with law degrees trying to get a $23k job raking leaves.

I probably wasn't specific enough; I'd mentioned it above. I want to be a rafting guide or park ranger (interpreter, not enforcer) for the BLM. Over and over I've been found "Best Qualified," then sent to the hiring authority to be snubbed. And I'm not picky about location.

If I wanted to just rake leaves, I'd create my own business.

Can you really blame an employer for being skeptical about why such a highly skilled person wants to do such a menial job?

Yeah, I can, because I'm a highly skilled rafter and outdoorsman. These aren't menial jobs; I'm not trying to clean toilets or rake the freaking yard. But they assume that I'm just on a joyride to the next huge paycheck or something. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

I never went in to law to be the next Cochran and rake in the big dough. But now that I have the degree and license, the type of attitude you display is common.

they don't hire externally for park rangers. You need to get a federal job, then apply.

Rapmaster2000: theorangeshield: I'm sorry but do people actually still use LinkedIn? There's no less than 3 tips there regarding it.

I've been told that it's significantly more popular on the West Coast than anywhere else in the country.

Just had a co-worker get recruited to Amazon via LinkedIn, so definitely companies using it.

AKTurkey: Rincewind53: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

Correction: Only go to law school if you are actually interested in practicing law and are ok with making $40,000 as a public defender or county prosecutor. If you're hoping to practice law to make big money, you're likely to be disappointed.

This. So very much this.

Boston Legal is a myth.

thornhill: And if you say you use a debit card, that's a big mistake. If the card number is stolen, the money is directly debited from your bank account. Now obviously if you can demonstrate to the bank that the card was stolen you can get the money back, but when this happens with a credit card, your actual savings are never affected.

CSB... A friend of mine had this happen. His bank returned much of this lost money within a month. But, for that month, he had nearly nothing. Learning from his experience, I went and opened several accounts at different banks and used them for different purposes. I even have 1 account that is 100% online only: no checks, no debit/ATM card. In the event that 1 account is compromised, I'm not losing a ton of money and I will only be slightly inconvienienced with dealing with the bank to get my money back and diverting funds to pay off utilities and whatnot. If my arsenal of debit cards were lost/stolen, my "hidden" account would hold me over for 2-3 months. This doesn't account for my savings either.

Point is, if you think you are comfortable financially, imagine what would happen if you lost your debit card. If it's too stressful to imagine, then you need to figure out a better system. If you are not finacially comfortable, then you have bigger problems to worry about.

thornhill:

Lastly, the rewards some cards offer do have tangible value. My card gives me frequent flyer miles. It's helped me earn about 100,000 miles in the last two years from purchases I've made with it. That translates into $1,000 of free airfare.


We have an American Express Blue card, in addition to a couple Visa cards. The AmEx Blue card is the best card ever. No annual fee, and we get cash-back rewards. Last year, we got around $800 in cash...and we didn't pay a single penny in fees or interest. Pretty smart money move, if you ask me.

And our debit cards? Lord knows where they are. We only use them about twice a year when we have to get cash from the ATM (e.g., while traveling). I can't think of a single way a debit card is better than a credit card.

Katie98_KT: they don't hire externally for park rangers. You need to get a federal job, then apply.

Yes, they do.

Salt Lick Steady: Yeah, I can, because I'm a highly skilled rafter and outdoorsman. These aren't menial jobs; I'm not trying to clean toilets or rake the freaking yard. But they assume that I'm just on a joyride to the next huge paycheck or something. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

I never went in to law to be the next Cochran and rake in the big dough. But now that I have the degree and license, the type of attitude you display is common.

I'm a graphic designer with software development experience. It was easy enough to get a shiat job flipping burgers before I had work experience, but since being laid off after 8 months of working in the industry, I can't approach even an assistant manager shiat job without getting a look from the interviewer/employer stating quite plainly "What the holy fark are you doing here? Shouldn't you be applying for a software development job?"
To which I'd love to reply, "I am. The precise requirements, HR department vagaries, and continually sluggish job market are so obstinate that I'm having trouble finding work. But that doesn't stop the bills from coming in, and I have more than enough experience and education to count your farking till at the end of the day."
The only thing harder is trying to explain 8 months of unemployment if I neglect to mention my previous job.

stiletto_the_wise: Millennium: And this, ultimately, is the real difference between traditional and Roth IRAs: you use the former if you think your particular tax rates will go down over time, and the latter if you think your tax rates will go up over time. Personally, I predict that mine will go up, so I use a Roth.

Wow, I never thought I'd say this, but thanks for the good discussion guys, I actually feel smarter having participated in a Fark thread. This has to be a first!

ignore both of them. You want to invest up to your employer's matching in a 401k. And then dump some money into a Roth (max 5k if you can).

this allows you to take money from your 401k, up til the point where you would be taxed a high rate, then take the rest out of your roth tax free.

so, in retirement, you need 20k a year to live on. $0-10k is taxed at 0%, 10k-15k at 5%. 15-25k at 15%. You take 15k from your 401k, and 5k from your roth.

Rincewind53: thornhill: AKTurkey: thornhill: Rincewind53: Correction: Don't be dumb, and don't go to a BAD law school. and if you do go to a GOOD law school, don't slack.

That's the real issue. People go to these third tier law schools and are shocked to discover that they're not getting six figure starting offers from big city law firms. It's a combination of a lack of common sense and law schools cooking the books on post-graduation employment data.

Uh, it's not only third tier law schools facing this problem.

/attend a top 10
//only about 40% of class is getting into big law these days

If you went to a top 10 you're still a lot better off than all of the non-top 10 folks. You'll still get better clerkships. The third tier people are pretty much screwed.

Yeah, when I said bad, I meant third-tier places like Thomas Cooley. I mean, sure, you may get a job, you may enjoy your job, and you may eventually make a bunch of money at it. As with pretty much all schools, if you're number one, or if you have connections, you'll do fine. But in this economy the chances are not good, and it's statistically better to try for another career.

I think this is pretty sage advice.

I am a current student at Cooley two terms away from graduation, but my situation is a bit different from most. I went back to Law School after having been out of college for four years. In that time I had gotten married, started a career, purchased a house, etc.

I went back to school because I really WANTED to attend law school. I really enjoy law school, and I think I will enjoy practicing law. I also think, despite its reputation, Cooley does an okay job of preparing people as well as Law School can prepare one for a legal career.

I could have gotten into a better school. I had an undergraduate GPA of 3.5 and scored a 160 on the LSAT, neither are spectacular, but they aren't too shabby either. However, I work full time, and Cooley was the only local school that was a feasible option for me. With the house, and the car, and everything else that comes with being an adult, I didn't really have the option of becoming a full time student once again.

I also have a fall-back plan per se. I enjoy my current job, and I don't mind continuing it post graduation. It will give me time to try to find something I want to do in the legal arena without feeling too stressed.

That being said, I STILL question if the decision was a good one. I have no regrets about attending law school, as I have very much enjoyed it, and I have no qualms with accepting a $40,000/year job as a prosecutor or other similar position. I also don't have this grand illusion that I will walk into some six-figure position as soon as I graduate. Hell, if I manage to find a job I like that pays $60,000-$65,000 a year I will be ecstatic. However, it will feel like an incredible waste if I graduate with this degree and am unable to use it. Additionally, I fear since law is where I eventually want to end up, if I am unable to find a legal position, I may eventually become disgruntled. It's tough, and it's something that is always in the back of my mind.

To be perfectly honest, the analysis that is required in such a decision/risk is not one I could have done fresh out of college, and I still wonder if I was well enough equipped to do it three years ago when I decided to enter law school.

bkisfancy: Ok- honest question. What advice would you give to a second year PhD student in biomedical science? I love research but is it time to leave for something else while the boat is still sinking?

"Biomedical science" is a rather broad-based term. What specifically are you studying and what is your research? You are in your second year, so you should be getting close to being finished with your classroom studies and ready to concentrate on your research. So the cost of your education should be going to fall only to matriculation fees and research hours.

I would think that the demand for those having doctorates in the biomedical disciplines will remain strong. Unless you aren't receiving any assistantship funds and are racking up heavy debt, why consider jumping ship?

Rapmaster2000: seadoo2006: PYTHON???!?!? The recommended learning PYTHON!?!?! What, should you learn FORTRAN and QBasic as well? Good lord, get with the times ...

Well, it is the easiest language I can think of, so it least it won't take up too much of your time to do it.

/banks still hire people for COBOL
//but that's the only archaic language I can think of that does so

You can be an expert in COBOL, but you still need to know JCL. Which is apparently one thing they don't teach anyone, anywhere, ever.

/Knows both
//And Roscoe, RPG, DB2, etc., etc.
///And happily will never have to touch them again.

"Electronics Tech is not what it sounds like. Any monkey can replace a circuit board these days. "

No. No I can't. And the last time I tried I got shocked.

Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: they don't hire externally for park rangers. You need to get a federal job, then apply.

Yes, they do.

*shrugs* good luck.

Katie98_KT: they don't hire externally for park rangers. You need to get a federal job, then apply.

Although I have applied to be the Director of the DOJ's Bureau of Indian Affairs. Bet they'll hire me to park range if I get that one!

/seriously don't want to be in DC

rev. dave: 4. Do not let the women you love go into nursing, it will psychologically destroy them.

Could not be more true. I worked 4 years as a recruiter for RN's. I can tell you how long someone has been a nurse by talking to them for 5 seconds. It's an almost perfectly predictable descent into weirdness.

That cute 22 year old you are dating will be a burned out derelict in 10 years of working 12hr ER shifts.

theorangeshield: I'm sorry but do people actually still use LinkedIn? There's no less than 3 tips there regarding it.

It's how I got my last three jobs actually. Linked-In is a *great* way for recruiters to know that you didn't lie on your resume, especially if you are in an exclusive industry group or two that only allows you in if you are who you say you are.

The job sites, monster and dice for example are lame. -This is from several recruiters I spoke with. Basically the recruiter has to pay to post the jobs there, whereas with Linked-In it's free. So basically you get first cut if you look for jobs through Linked-In. Jobs only hit Monster and Dice when they can't find someone on Linked-In. In fact, if you are in the right groups (and your resume doesn't suck) you'll have recruiters contact you without having to lift a finger.

Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: they don't hire externally for park rangers. You need to get a federal job, then apply.

Yes, they do.

*shrugs* good luck.

Why do you state as much? I'm quite curious. And what sort of federal job should I get before I can get the federal job?

born_yesterday: Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

But Bob16, we NEED moar young people in science!!!!

/Cause they'll work for next to nothing
//And don't know enough to complain
///Or we'll get an H2 to do it

Incompetence makes computer science graduates the largest unemployed group... Seriously, the last 50 interviews I've done for programmers were just sad... really, really sad...

RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Yeah, who really wants to make $300/hr?

/getting a kick
//billing a client for this post
///$180/hr, special client

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: 7. Be annoyingly proactive to land your first job. Don't just send a CV, but follow up with a phone call, and give the person that answers examples of how you will actually help their organization.

If you're going for your first job, you don't know how you will actually help their organization. So, when you try to tell them how you're going to help their organization, it makes you look kind of naive... and silly.

I think actually they're not going far enough. If you really want the job you should break into your prospective bosses house and write bullet points from your CV in lipstick on their bathroom mirror.
That will let them know you're resourceful and not afraid to take risks - and that they better give you the job if they value their children's safety.

Sergeant Grumbles: /snip/ software development job /snip/ continually sluggish job market

Does not compute.

born_yesterday:

But Bob16, we NEED moar young people in science!!!!

/Cause they'll work for next to nothing
//And don't know enough to complain
///Or we'll get an H1-B to do it for half the salary

FTFY.

Seriously, though. I'm working through my PhD in physics right now, and I'm scared shiatless about my future job prospects. And, yet, the talking heads keep telling Americans we need more students studying math and science, as if there was a dearth of physical scientists (not biologists...those don't count), mathematicians, and engineers in this country. It's simply not true.

Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: they don't hire externally for park rangers. You need to get a federal job, then apply.

Yes, they do.

*shrugs* good luck.

Why do you state as much? I'm quite curious. And what sort of federal job should I get before I can get the federal job?

I have a friend who wants to be a park ranger, got a history degree, interned at a national park and was told explicitly that. He took a boring paper processing job. With a law degree you could easily be considered for just about any of those.

If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

Your best bet would be any job with DoI, but just about any gov't job that confers status will do.

Kahabut: RexTalionis: Yeah, stay away from law school. Don't do it! Step away from the ledge! (Last advice is relevant if you decided to ignore my other advice.)

Yeah, who really wants to make $300/hr?

/getting a kick
//billing a client for this post
///$180/hr, special client

Representing your client for malpractice, $350/hr.

sasiem2: rev. dave: 4. Do not let the women you love go into nursing, it will psychologically destroy them.

SOO TRUE!!!!!
/flamed out of nursing school after one year
//still tending to the burns

I was thinking of going back for a degree in nursing. I figure I like biology and helping people. I wouldn't mind knowing the issues you had with it. EIP.

Katie98_KT: If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

That may be true, but when I initially started the search the number of open ranger jobs in the most crescent recesses of the balls of the country were at "need lots," "need lots," need lots." I doubt "needing a whole lot of lots" would've changed the landscape.

rev. dave: 5. Stay away from banking, they not only eat their young, but also the old and those who appear weak. If Darth Vader were real he would be middle management for a large bank.

never a truer statement than this..... banking will age you well beyond your years.

Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: they don't hire externally for park rangers. You need to get a federal job, then apply.

Yes, they do.

*shrugs* good luck.

Why do you state as much? I'm quite curious. And what sort of federal job should I get before I can get the federal job?

I have a friend who wants to be a park ranger, got a history degree, interned at a national park and was told explicitly that. He took a boring paper processing job. With a law degree you could easily be considered for just about any of those.

If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

Your best bet would be any job with DoI, but just about any gov't job that confers status will do.

Oh, and your friend got a job as a park ranger after taking the paper pushing jerb?

Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

That may be true, but when I initially started the search the number of open ranger jobs in the most crescent recesses of the balls of the country were at "need lots," "need lots," need lots." I doubt "needing a whole lot of lots" would've changed the landscape.

*blinks* You have no clue how the federal job process works do you? Go to washington post's website, they have some general information about it. or the Partnership for Public Service has good information.

the feds have a whole process in who they are allowed to hire, no matter whether they "advertise" a job or not. its not like private industry, you don't just put the job out there and hire someone.

Cefm: Rather - don't go to law school straight out of college with no plan or knowledge of the field.

Instead, get a job in a law office as a clerk, paralegal, whatever and learn how the sausage is made. Then apply to the in-state school that everyone in the local professional community likes the best, work while taking classes, and have a post-graduation job lined up by the end of your first year.

This. Perfectly put, except that it is more realistic to have the job lined up by the end of your second year these days. Also, law review, moot court, and trial team are better resume boosters than working at some small-time local firm while taking classes. Almost every employer puts these on their preference list.

"We have a trophy that is half the size of the Stanley Cup, with each year's winners engraved on the side."

...Sadly even though their names are engraved each year on the side, there are never any names of "winners" on that trophy...

Mawson of the Antarctic: Is it me, or did the article read like a list of how to be social and bro/sis out with your friends because they'll give you jobs? I hate lists like these because it tells me that introverted individuals, like myself, will die jobless and alone unlike those golden-child extroverts.

I totally feel that, being a complete and utter introvert. However, what I'm learning is that you really DO have to go out and join SOMETHING. I don't think it has to be sports. I've met people at knitting groups and from my roller derby league and classes I've taken for fun at community college. You really do have to try to get out there.

Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

That may be true, but when I initially started the search the number of open ranger jobs in the most crescent recesses of the balls of the country were at "need lots," "need lots," need lots." I doubt "needing a whole lot of lots" would've changed the landscape.

*blinks* You have no clue how the federal job process works do you? Go to washington post's website, they have some general information about it. or the Partnership for Public Service has good information.

the feds have a whole process in who they are allowed to hire, no matter whether they "advertise" a job or not. its not like private industry, you don't just put the job out there and hire someone.

It's not a matter of whether they ad the job; it's that I was deemed best qualified for it, repeatedly referred to the hiring office, and then was rejected. If you're claiming that's because I was not already a federal employee filling out forms, you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

kukukupo: thornhill: 17. Open your wallet. Take out your credit cards. Now cut them up and never use them again. You'll thank me in ten years.

This is just really stupid. Having a large line of credit is extremely useful. The lesson should be: don't put more on your credit card then you can completely pay back in less than 2 months.

There is absolutely no need for a credit card. The wife and I never used one and we had good enough 'credit' to buy a house and a car. If you get an apartment and make rent payments and start paying utilities you won't need a credit card.

Who said anything about a need? I use an Amazon.com credit card. I get 1 point per dollar spent, 3 points if I use it to buy stuff from Amazon. 1 point earned = 1 cent earned. That means I'm effectively earning at least 1% interest on the money I spend. That's more than the 0.85% I'm currently earning on the money in my savings account. Providing you are able to create a budget and stick to it, it can actually be profitable to use a credit card.

/pay my bill completely every month

I just want to take the opportunity to thank all of my fellow Fark lawyers for this thread. Just reading the comments has made my day, knowing that I am not alone in my struggles.

We should get T-shirts or something.

Gabrielmot:
The job sites, monster and dice for example are lame. -This is from several recruiters I spoke with. Basically the recruiter has to pay to post the jobs there, whereas with Linked-In it's free. So basically you get first cut if you look for jobs through Linked-In. Jobs only hit Monster and Dice when they can't find someone on Linked-In. In fact, if you are in the right groups (and your resume doesn't suck) you'll have recruiters contact you without having to lift a finger.

Cool Story Bro time: When I had 'software engineer' as my job title on LinkedIn, I'd have recruiters contacting me WEEKLY through the site. It almost started getting annoying! One day I changed my job title to 'software product manager' without changing a single other thing. The recruiter contacts dropped to zero overnight.

So I learned two things: 1. The shortage of software engineers is real. And 2. Apparently, software these days simply leaps from the engineers' fingertips directly on to store shelves as a product, without the need of someone to manage the production of it.

Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

That may be true, but when I initially started the search the number of open ranger jobs in the most crescent recesses of the balls of the country were at "need lots," "need lots," need lots." I doubt "needing a whole lot of lots" would've changed the landscape.

*blinks* You have no clue how the federal job process works do you? Go to washington post's website, they have some general information about it. or the Partnership for Public Service has good information.

the feds have a whole process in who they are allowed to hire, no matter whether they "advertise" a job or not. its not like private industry, you don't just put the job out there and hire someone.

Um, yeah, those talk about the new hiring category process, which is already plain when you apply. You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you?

RexTalionis: Bontesla: Boston Legal is a myth.

Yeah, seriously, no hot chicks are trying to hump me on a daily basis.

And the Denny Crane's trying to sex you make it difficult to get things done. The answer is no - even if you ask politely this time.

Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

That may be true, but when I initially started the search the number of open ranger jobs in the most crescent recesses of the balls of the country were at "need lots," "need lots," need lots." I doubt "needing a whole lot of lots" would've changed the landscape.

*blinks* You have no clue how the federal job process works do you? Go to washington post's website, they have some general information about it. or the Partnership for Public Service has good information.

the feds have a whole process in who they are allowed to hire, no matter whether they "advertise" a job or not. its not like private industry, you don't just put the job out there and hire someone.

Um, yeah, those talk about the new hiring category process, which is already plain when you apply. You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you?

I'm trying to find something that actually bothers to explain it, but here's how it works.

Federal agency puts out a job announcement, often both to internal and external candidates. Officially the "rule of 3" is gone, and the new category system is in place. Based on those job announcements, HR provides a list of people and how qualified they are for the job (based on each announcement). The new rules state that you can hire anyone in the best qualified list, but in most circumstances you're constrained by various hiring preferences: veterans, displaced feds, disabled, are the big ones.

they're working on modernizing the system, but the effect is that for many of the jobs that seem awesome with the feds, you have to take a boring job to get to that, or just get damn lucky, orbe a veteran.

lincoln65: I stopped considering law school when I took a free practice LSAT from kaplan or whoever. The proctor gave this big time sharey speech after the test to get us to sign up for his course. He said he knew all the tricks better than anyone, since he had a 170+ on his and had already gone through law school.

Yeah, he had his JD and was teaching undergrads how to prepare for the LSAT. That was his full time gig.

Kaplan doesn't even pay that great, all things considered. They advertise $16 an hour for training time, then $30 an hour for class time when you're teaching, but ignore a couple hitches. The $16 an hour for training? It's actually $8- they give you an hour of prep time for each hour of training. Most days, mine took 2 for each- that magic $16/hr became $5.33. Same for class time. You got $15/hr to teach, and 1:1 prep time pay as well- so $30 for each hour of class, but the hour of teaching usually took 3 to prep for. $30/hr becomes $7.50/hr.

NeoBad: Number 31: Go to Medical School. Flood the USA with cheap assed doctors, there will truly be drive through doc in the boxs where you stick out your tongue and say Ah. We won't need HC reform anymore and the government will go back to governing

You, my good man, are insane. I gather, however, that it was the point.

As a serious note on med school, for the love of God, major in something other than Biology if you go that route. I took some medical leave during med school, and finding a job of any form with a Bio degree was next to impossible.

Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.


Federal agency puts out a job announcement, often both to internal and external candidates. Officially the "rule of 3" is gone, and the new category system is in place. Based on those job announcements, HR provides a list of people and how qualified they are for the job (based on each announcement). The new rules state that you can hire anyone in the best qualified list, but in most circumstances you're constrained by various hiring preferences: veterans, displaced feds, disabled, are the big ones.

they're working on modernizing the system, but the effect is that for many of the jobs that seem awesome with the feds, you have to take a boring job to get to that, or just get damn lucky, orbe a veteran.

You don't have to be a paper pushing fed to get a park ranger job, just freaking admit it. You don't know what you're talking about; you based your whole righteous schtick on the anecdotal recall of a friend years back.

Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: If you want to know why I think its true, change the search settings in USAjobs to jobs for federal employees and watch the number of open jobs double.

That may be true, but when I initially started the search the number of open ranger jobs in the most crescent recesses of the balls of the country were at "need lots," "need lots," need lots." I doubt "needing a whole lot of lots" would've changed the landscape.

*blinks* You have no clue how the federal job process works do you? Go to washington post's website, they have some general information about it. or the Partnership for Public Service has good information.

the feds have a whole process in who they are allowed to hire, no matter whether they "advertise" a job or not. its not like private industry, you don't just put the job out there and hire someone.

Um, yeah, those talk about the new hiring category process, which is already plain when you apply. You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you?

I'm trying to find something that actually bothers to explain it, but here's how it works.

Federal agency puts out a job announcement, often both to internal and external candidates. Officially the "rule of 3" is gone, and the new category system is in place. Based on those job announcements, HR provides a list of people and how qualified they are for the job (based on each announcement). The new rules state that you can hire anyone in the best qualified list, but in most circumstances you're constrained by various hiring preferences: veterans, displaced feds, disabled, are the big ones.

they're working on modernizing the system, but the effect is that for many of the jobs that seem awesome with the feds, you have to take a boring job to get to that, or just get damn lucky, orbe a veteran.

found it:

"Q. How are candidates selected under category rating?

A . Agencies make selections from within the highest quality category regardless of the number of candidates (i.e., the rule of three does not apply). However, preference eligibles receive absolute preference within each category. If a preference eligible is in the category, an agency may not select a non-preference eligible unless the agency requests to pass over the preference eligible in accordance with 5 U.S.C. § 3318, and the request is approved.

If there are fewer than three candidates in the highest quality group, agencies may combine the highest group with the next lower group and make selections from the merged group. The newly merged category would then constitute the highest quality category. Preference eligibles must be listed ahead of non-preference eligibles in the newly merged category. Once again, as long as a preference eligible remains in the merged category, an agency may not select a non-preference eligible unless the agency receives approval to pass over the preference eligible in accordance with 5 U.S.C. § 3318.

Agencies are reminded that preference eligibles are placed in the highest quality category based on the quality category definition agencies develop with the exception of the preference eligible with a compensable service-connected disability of at least 10 percent who must be listed in the highest quality category (except in the case of scientific or professional positions at the GS-9 level or higher). Agencies should review the quality categories to ensure they accurately reflect the best qualified.
"

http://www.opm.gov/employ/category_rating/faq.asp

We need more people to go to law school. Some of us still have to share a lawyer.

Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT:

found it:

"Q. How are candidates selected under category rating?

A . Agencies make selections from within the highest quality category regar ...

Did you forget I was already placed in Best Qualified, and did you forget that I wasn't a federal employee to get that ranking?

Christ you're obtuse.

JackieRabbit: We need more people to go to law school. Some of us still have to share a lawyer.

We NEED lawyers cause they help us forgive people of crimes

Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT:

found it:

"Q. How are candidates selected under category rating?

A . Agencies make selections from within the highest quality category regar ...

Did you forget I was already placed in Best Qualified, and did you forget that I wasn't a federal employee to get that ranking?

Christ you're obtuse.

did you read the second line? It says that if you and a vet are both rated "best qualified" they HAVE to hire the vet unless they apply for an exception.

If you are a federal employee, you can apply for TWO announcements for the same job. and the hiring manager is given TWO best qualified lists. The "internal" list generally does not include veteran (or at least is less likely to), so they can hire from the interal best qualfied list without having to provide a justification for not hiring the vet.

philotech: born_yesterday: Bob16: >> Don't go to law school,

And definitely stay away from EE and CS too

clip - Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_82739 8 .htm


America's vanishing science jobs

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/america_vanishing _ science_jobs_V3TzWwPRZsmTh1sGmtVr8L

Offshoring making Computer Science graduates the largest unemployed group

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/inside-outsourcing/2010/09/is-off s horing-making-computer-science-graduates-the-largest-unemployed-group. html

The Real Science Crisis: Bleak Prospects for Young Researchers

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Real-Science-Crisis-Bleak/29178

But Bob16, we NEED moar young people in science!!!!

/Cause they'll work for next to nothing
//And don't know enough to complain
///Or we'll get an H2 to do it

Incompetence makes computer science graduates the largest unemployed group... Seriously, the last 50 interviews I've done for programmers were just sad... really, really sad...

This is very much the reason. If you can hold a conversation with someone that isn't about WoW or Call of Duty and know how to wear a suit then you're guaranteed employment with an EE. Be willing to relocate or travel for a few years before you have life commitments and you'll be making 6 figures in less then 5-10yrs out of school and never be worried about finding a job. We can't find enough talented EE grads who look like they can talk to adults and we pay very well. Most are pimple faced morans who will live at home well into their 30's.

/MSEE

rcuhljr: Does not compute.

I guess you're not familiar with outsourcing.

/last job was outsourced.

bkisfancy: Ok- honest question. What advice would you give to a second year PhD student in biomedical science? I love research but is it time to leave for something else while the boat is still sinking?

First bit of advice: don't solicit career advice from a bunch of unemployed know-it-alls who have nothing better to do than post on web forums all day.

Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT: Salt Lick Steady: Katie98_KT:

found it:

"Q. How are candidates selected under category rating?

A . Agencies make selections from within the highest quality category regar ...

Did you forget I was already placed in Best Qualified, and did you forget that I wasn't a federal employee to get that ranking?

Christ you're obtuse.

also, you're really rude. I'm trying to help.

Sergeant Grumbles: rcuhljr: Does not compute.

I guess you're not familiar with outsourcing.

/last job was outsourced.

Sure, I worked an internship in college fixing the crappy code results of outsourced development. Software development is thriving right now and good developers are in high demand.

I wish I'd read all the advice about grad school five years ago. About to graduate soon, and feel like I've just wasted 5 years of my life.

rcuhljr: Sure, I worked an internship in college fixing the crappy code results of outsourced development. Software development is thriving right now and good developers are in high demand.

If you're in the increasingly narrow range of the skillset HR thinks you need. Otherwise they biatch on Fark that software development is booming but they can't find any qualified candidates.

When making fries, buy and use a thermometer. Keeping the oil at the right temperature is essential to making a good french fry.


Also: learn to cook. People may talk about careers that get you half a million and up, but at the end of the day everyone needs to eat. Cooking will impress your family, friends, employers who didn't have time to get lunch, teammates, captors, cops, exotic beauties whom you didn't believe you had a chance with and the deity of your choice.


/Journalism-English major and former Deli Associate for Wal-Mart.
//McDonalds fries suck.

My wife has a masters in Archives and Public History since 2007. She has three part time jobs and without my benefits, she'd have no health insurance.

She's considering becoming an electrician.

Katie98_KT: Port1080: stiletto_the_wise: Port1080: Taxes are pretty low right now, probably will be higher by the time you retire. Also, starting out in a new job you're probably not in a very high tax bracket. It really depends on your situation, though. If you turned that 5 year engineering BA / MA into an $80k job right out of college, a Roth might not make that much sense.

I agree it probably depends on your situation, but when was the last time tax rates actually went up significantly? Not in my lifetime or my parents' lifetimes.

I suspect that most people's effective tax rate goes down throughout their life. You start out with only your labor (which is taxed at the highest rate). Then, as you get older more and more of your income is shielded from taxes (capital gains, access to deductions such as mortgage interest, etc.) I bet most of us will be paying a far lower tax rate once we retire and are unemployed than now when we're working.

US Government debt is obscenely large and tax rates are at historic lows. Taxes are not going to go down.

do you understand the phrase "effective tax rate"?

I think tax rates are going to have to go up across the board. I wouldn't be surprised to see the lowest tax brackets go up to 20% and 25%, respectively, by the time I'm retirement age. If I'm pulling $20k-$40k or so a year out of an traditional IRA, I'd still be in those brackets, and paying more on that money than I currently pay (in 15% bracket right now).

stiletto_the_wise: 15. If you can, make your 401(k) contributions Roth IRA-style rather than traditional. When you withdraw the money in retirement (many, many years from now) you will not have to pay income tax on it.

Can someone explain this logic to me? Why would you want to pay taxes on it NOW, when you're working and are in a higher tax bracket, than later, when you're retired, have virtually no income, and have a low tax rate?

Because historically , taxes never go down. Pay it now, and use the money how you see fit in the future with no worries.

Katie98_KT: also, you're really rude. I'm trying to help.

Yeah, this from the one who said, "Good luck with that."

You weren't trying to help, you were being a dick who started off as saying, "The reason I know this is because if you go to USAjobs and change your preference... more jerbs appear!"

Despite preferences, it is not plausible that the several hundred placements I sought were not gained because a vet or a former federal worker with the requisite amount of skill took them.

bkisfancy: Ok- honest question. What advice would you give to a second year PhD student in biomedical science? I love research but is it time to leave for something else while the boat is still sinking?

If you honestly love research, don't leave unless you can find a place that will hire you to do research with an MS. Instead, decide whether you want to work in academia or industry immediately.

If it's academia: start talking to your adviser now about connections for postdocs, and start participating in grant writing as soon as you possibly can. If your adviser won't let you help with grants or doesn't have connections, seriously consider changing to another adviser before it's too late. If that's not an option, start researching postdocs that are available now - it's never to early to look - and start a dialogue with any PIs on projects that look interesting to you. In the meantime, start working on your own grants - you can make up for lack of help by practicing a lot, and the best way to do that is to write your own grants. Go to NIH or NSF or whoever funds your current project and see what's open - pick one or two and write a grant proposal. Don't submit it without your adviser's approval, but if you can write a decent draft for something that he/she has a chance of getting funded, it might convince him/her to let you in on the process. Above all though - being able to effectively write grants and developing a network of personal connections is what gets people jobs in academia. Scientific talent/ability is irrelevant beyond that - you can be a modern day Einstein, but if you can't get grant proposals funded, nobody will hire you.

If you want to go into industry, find out if your adviser has any connections in industry, and do your best to either:
a) start a research project partially funded by an industry partner where you are actually collaborating with someone from the company, preferably at their location (them just writing a check and having first crack at the results doesn't count)
b) get an internship somewhere for at least one semester. It doesn't matter how much longer it takes to graduate - that internship is what will get you a job after you do.

If your adviser doesn't have any direct connections and can't put you into contact with someone who does, start talking to other faculty - any one who does research you are interested in. One of them will know someone, and that's how you will get your foot in the door. The absolute most important things to remember are:

Academia - learn to write grants proposals that actually get funded
Industry - get real-world working experience before you graduate