AncientLurker: beantowndog: fireclown: While we're complaining about law school, I finish my MBA in two semesters. I didn't pay a cent for it (employer reimburses expensed), and I'm pretty happy in my current job. I took the program as sort of an exercise. What do people DO with the silly things?

Ruin the economy.

Mediocre But Arrogant. I dont use my mba at all but it puts your res at the top of the pile.
/didn't ruin the economy. Had help

"hey, if we lay off all our non-value-added staff and 20% of our value-added staff, we'll beat our budget expectations next quarter!"

'but who will do marketing and R&D?'

"we don't need that shiat"

*cashes check, leaves company*
*company collapses six months later*

liam76 2012-05-09 10:48:25 AM

FeFiFoFark: 1. Buy low, sell high.
2. Never pet a burning dog.

3. Never date a girl named after a city.


Tell me about it. That was one wacky biatch!
(sorry Sheboygan)

Hmm, yeah, about #17... these days you can get cards that give cash back. I use that money for contributions to my Roth IRA, #14 on the list. It's practically free money, and invested right, it can add up over time.

Shazam999: Nah. Most CS programs don't do any real programming unless they're on a very specific track. CS degree holders are the last people you want to hire as programmers unless you know for absolute certain they did some programming while in school (believe me, the number is very, very small).

If you actually need new grad programmers, then technical schools are the way to go.

All of the stuff about law school and engineering makes me consider asking for advice...

I have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering, have a decent job as an engineer (I am not in academia or anything like that). However, I've always loved law, and still read most of the more interesting appellate and Supreme Court cases that come down the pipe. As an undergraduate I took a sort of "Introduction to law" course and did quite well, the professor telling me that the brief I had to write was better than many he sees from his early law students, and that if I didn't go into law I'd be shortchanging both myself and the profession. Alas, I stayed in engineering.

I don't dislike my work, but still have a passion for reading and learning about law, and have considered attempting law school and doing something that could merge my scientific and technical knowledge with law (is there something in that field besides IP/patent? Is that a good field? I'd almost certainly enjoy it).

So, random questions...do law schools actually accept people that have been out in the workforce for so long? Is there some way to pay for it besides taking out quadrillions of dollars in loans? Is it possible to do (if at a slower pace) while I keep my job, but not as a result go to a school that no one will care I went to? I live in the DC/VA/MD area.

Shazam999: If you actually need new grad programmers, then technical schools are the way to go.

If that were true, I'd have a job.
In my experience, all new grads are viewed as more than incompetent. Tech school grads are viewed as moreso. Either you get an H1-B visa for a third the price, or you get to biatch about how no one is qualified. Maybe instead of biatching, we could get some on-the-job training?
Seriously talking to a guy who says his current graphic design lead can't get his files to the factory in the proper format. He wonders if I can come in and help fix things. I say yes, there is no problem figuring out filetype and compatibility issues. I already did that at my last job. Bastard comes back and says he needs to talk it over with his design team, to make sure I don't rock the boat too much.

Shazam999: Nah. Most CS programs don't do any real programming unless they're on a very specific track. CS degree holders are the last people you want to hire as programmers unless you know for absolute certain they did some programming while in school (believe me, the number is very, very small).

You know that, I know that, but somebody needs to tell the students.

If you actually need new grad programmers, then technical schools are the way to go.

I don't think the degree means much, whether it's two-year or four-year, no matter what the major. Even EE graduates from decent schools aren't always skilled programmers.

algrant33: AncientLurker: beantowndog: fireclown: While we're complaining about law school, I finish my MBA in two semesters. I didn't pay a cent for it (employer reimburses expensed), and I'm pretty happy in my current job. I took the program as sort of an exercise. What do people DO with the silly things?

Ruin the economy.

Mediocre But Arrogant. I dont use my mba at all but it puts your res at the top of the pile.
/didn't ruin the economy. Had help

"hey, if we lay off all our non-value-added staff and 20% of our value-added staff, we'll beat our budget expectations next quarter!"

'but who will do marketing and R&D?'

"we don't need that shiat"

*cashes check, leaves company*
*company collapses six months later*

Lol. I found multiple avenues to trim cost centers while optimizing revenue streams, we can also leverage our value add to sell upstream.
/ i fire half the backoff staff
/ collect bonus
/ bail to the next gig as companies short term rev increases before long-term crash

Well what programming languages are people looking for?

I'm thinking about just going for it and getting a CS degree while focusing on some sort of marketable programming skills All the jobs ads require experience with a few as well as the almighty diploma. It should only take a year and a half, but it would be a pretty scary shift in current life trajectory.

rcuhljr: Shazam999: Nah. Most CS programs don't do any real programming unless they're on a very specific track. CS degree holders are the last people you want to hire as programmers unless you know for absolute certain they did some programming while in school (believe me, the number is very, very small).

If you actually need new grad programmers, then technical schools are the way to go.

[up-ship.com image 535x356]

If you need a programmer - like someone who just codes, and nothing else, then hiring a CS student is not the way to go.

But hey, when was the last time you met a CS grad that knew ABAP from school?

Sergeant Grumbles: Shazam999: If you actually need new grad programmers, then technical schools are the way to go.

If that were true, I'd have a job.
In my experience, all new grads are viewed as more than incompetent. Tech school grads are viewed as moreso. Either you get an H1-B visa for a third the price, or you get to biatch about how no one is qualified. Maybe instead of biatching, we could get some on-the-job training?
Seriously talking to a guy who says his current graphic design lead can't get his files to the factory in the proper format. He wonders if I can come in and help fix things. I say yes, there is no problem figuring out filetype and compatibility issues. I already did that at my last job. Bastard comes back and says he needs to talk it over with his design team, to make sure I don't rock the boat too much.

I once read a post from John Carmack's .plan (yes, before blogs) about how sometimes you need to relocate to find a suitable job.

Sometimes, you need to move to find a job.

Shazam999: Sometimes, you need to move to find a job.

Sometimes, you don't have money to move.
Sometimes, you're an asshole.

Guess which one applies to you right now?

Sergeant Grumbles: Shazam999: Sometimes, you need to move to find a job.

Sometimes, you don't have money to move.
Sometimes, you're an asshole.

Guess which one applies to you right now?

Wow with a personality like that it's no wonder no one wants to hire you. Do you also smell like shiat most of the time?

Shazam999: Wow with a personality like that it's no wonder no one wants to hire you. Do you also smell like shiat most of the time?

Yeah, yeah. You're just full of preconceived notions of who deserves to work and who doesn't. My only consolation is that you morons have even less of an idea of what is going on than the CS grads.

Sergeant Grumbles: Shazam999: Wow with a personality like that it's no wonder no one wants to hire you. Do you also smell like shiat most of the time?

Yeah, yeah. You're just full of preconceived notions of who deserves to work and who doesn't. My only consolation is that you morons have even less of an idea of what is going on than the CS grads.

You're either crazy or insane. At this point I'm going with insane. But you can easily sway me to crazy.

But hey, your awesome job where you get to not tell people what file formats to use sounds awesome. You should totally stay there. Also you call them assholes and see what happens next.

G. Tarrant So, random questions...do law schools actually accept people that have been out in the workforce for so long? Is there some way to pay for it besides taking out quadrillions of dollars in loans? Is it possible to do (if at a slower pace) while I keep my job, but not as a result go to a school that no one will care I went to? I live in the DC/VA/MD area.

Law schools accept non-traditional students. I went to a T14 law school, and there was a woman in my class who was about 50. There probably is no way of paying for it without taking out lots of loans, unless you have substantial savings or get some sort of scholarship (most of the schools where that's possible are lower tier ones, for obvious reasons). IIRC, Georgetown U., a very prestigious law school in your neck of the woods, has a part-time night program. Hope this answers some of your questions.

Shazam999: You're either crazy or insane. At this point I'm going with insane. But you can easily sway me to crazy.

Better than stupid.
Nothing you've said has convinced me you're anything but.

umad: Why would they be skilled programmers? They are EE's.

Because, like I said before, every employer expects their new employees to be 100% current on their exact methods and software, with no patience for anyone in a closely related field who need to get up to speed in a new program.

Mediocre But Arrogant mba. I have lunch dinner hookers atrippers with the ceo of your company. The ceo wants to fire the bottom 10% of employees performance wise and crush an svp. He hires my team for a short engagement for a lot of cash. We shmooze your ceo and make a nice PowerPoint of all the things he wants to do to max his bonus. The execs and board signoff, he does his things amd we get paid. Or we recommend an insane IT project that will never be fully online, maybe my buddy owns the IT company. Eventually the ceo wants to move on zo ws help him find a new gig, he hires us again at the new comp. Rinse and repeat

Yeah isuck at typing on this phone

Shazam999: If you need a programmer - like someone who just codes, and nothing else, then hiring a CS student is not the way to go.

But hey, when was the last time you met a CS grad that knew ABAP from school?

It's going to vary from school to school, but there's markedly little difference between a Software Engineering focus and a Computer Science Focus where I went. Really SE just skips some of the harder CS topics and picks up a few of the more relevant courses. If the person is applying for a programming job with a CS degree then programming is what they want to do, not continue into academia. I can't imagine why any school would teach a language like ABAP outside of electives for the same reason that they don't generally teach ADA, COBOL, etc. Enterprise development isn't an appropriate (or I'd argue interesting) place to start understanding development.

Thats_Not_My_Baby: Well what programming languages are people looking for?

Depends what you want to do really, although I'm in the camp that just knowing how to pick up a new language and having a firm understanding of the underlying concepts will get you farther then just knowing one language to the exclusion of others.

Sergeant Grumbles: Sometimes, you don't have money to move.

Most companies that seriously recruit from across the country also offer relocation packages, and will fly you out for in person interviews. Don't be afraid to throw a wide net.

rcuhljr: Most companies that seriously recruit from across the country also offer relocation packages, and will fly you out for in person interviews. Don't be afraid to throw a wide net.

I'm definitely not afraid, I've applied to jobs in 36 states and 5 countries. But the asshole consensus seems to be that you need to move to where the jobs are, even if you don't necessarily have a job lined up, or financial wherewithal to make the move. I've already moved three times to find a job, and that company went out of business after 8 months. You'll have to excuse me if I'm gunshy about uprooting everything for the mere opportunity to work for more than slave wages.

umad: I will second the motion that CS is not about programming. It is discrete math and algorithm development. The language you use doesn't matter. It is all about the theory.

AustinFakir: I don't think the degree means much, whether it's two-year or four-year, no matter what the major. Even EE graduates from decent schools aren't always skilled programmers.

Why would they be skilled programmers? They are EE's.

Hate to tell you but almost all EE these days involves some degree of programming - yes there is a lot of math and whatnot but I find myself spending more and more time in SQL databases and dealing with .NET. You can't design a substation w/o communication protocols, logic controllers and data storage. They all are intertwined.

/at least it leaves a lot of time for Fark

AustinFakir:
The applicants for programming positions are overwhelmingly extremely bad. Search for FizzBuzz on Google for extensive discussion of the problem.


We had an applicant for an entry-level electrical engineering position years ago with a bachelor's degree. HR loved the resume so she was brought in to meet some of the team members.

My boss at the time drew an RC circuit on his board - one resistor, one capacitor - with a DC battery, said the initial state was zero, and asked her what would happen, describe it, write something out, do SOMETHING. She had no idea. She acknowledged being required to take a class on it, but she put everything into SPICE or the like and thus could not explain what was actually happening inside the circuit. She eventually burst into tears.

I recognize she was likely an aberration and most electrical engineers at the BS level would have been able to do the problem, but my boss got so pissed that he closed the req and insisted they never again bother hiring candidates with bachelor's degrees. It's many years later and that policy is still in place.

umad: Why would they be skilled programmers? They are EE's.

I don't know why it is. Maybe it has something to do with the lab work they do or the courses they're required to take, and I'm sure the fact that it's a difficult and competitive major has something to do with it. Whatever the reason is, if I were forced to choose a major and hire random graduates as programmers, I'd probably choose EE. At the very least they've done a lot of MATLAB, some embedded C programming, and a little bit of Verilog or VHDL, plus the basic comp-sci courses. They've had to show some versatility and savoir-faire.

Sergeant Grumbles: In my experience, all new grads are viewed as more than incompetent. Tech school grads are viewed as moreso.

Yeah, basically correct. Credentials don't matter. The bright side is that once you're hired, nobody cares about anybody else's credentials. I don't even know what degrees most of my current co-workers have or where they went to school.

Either you get an H1-B visa for a third the price, or you get to biatch about how no one is qualified.

Those days are gone. Even in India, companies are limited by the lack of programmers.

Maybe instead of biatching, we could get some on-the-job training?

Programming is a special case, which is why of all the skills related to developing software it is the one that is used as a stand-in for all the others. There's a lot more knowledge required for software development than programming, but everything else you learn for the job requires a much lower ratio of practice to intellectual content. Programming is something you learn by doing it. Doing it a LOT. That's why so many people get through CS programs without learning how to program, and in academia they treat it like a great mystery. Some kids learn to program from our classes, and some kids sit through the same classes and don't learn; gee, what's wrong? No! Perhaps a few exceptionally bright people learn to program from going to class and doing the paltry handful of exercises that are assigned. Most people learn programming from hours and hours and hours spent by themselves in front of a computer. You can teach theory; you can explain how an operating system works. You can stand up in front of a class and feel confident that if they pay attention and do the exercises you assign, you can make them understand the basic concepts behind relational databases. But not programming.

You just can't make someone program for hundreds of hours until it becomes second nature. You can't make them do it, and you can't predict who will enjoy it enough to stick with it. Basically, on the job training for programming would be like on the job training for playing the piano.

stiletto_the_wise: Gabrielmot:
The job sites, monster and dice for example are lame. -This is from several recruiters I spoke with. Basically the recruiter has to pay to post the jobs there, whereas with Linked-In it's free. So basically you get first cut if you look for jobs through Linked-In. Jobs only hit Monster and Dice when they can't find someone on Linked-In. In fact, if you are in the right groups (and your resume doesn't suck) you'll have recruiters contact you without having to lift a finger.

Cool Story Bro time: When I had 'software engineer' as my job title on LinkedIn, I'd have recruiters contacting me WEEKLY through the site. It almost started getting annoying! One day I changed my job title to 'software product manager' without changing a single other thing. The recruiter contacts dropped to zero overnight.

So I learned two things: 1. The shortage of software engineers is real. And 2. Apparently, software these days simply leaps from the engineers' fingertips directly on to store shelves as a product, without the need of someone to manage the production of it.

I'd add to that one more lesson... Recruiters have little to no idea what IT and Software people *do*, so it's easiest to spell it out for them.

I had an industry accepted acronyms on my resume and the recruiter I was talking to said I didn't have the experience they needed... in the same field which was littered all over my resume. I also learned later that I needed to spell things out in *both* forms as later on another recruiter couldn't find the acronym on my resume, just the long form and assumed I was unqualified.

CujoQuarrel:

Use a branded (Visa, MC) debit card.

That won't keep you from having to put down a $500 cash deposit when you rent a car with a debit card. If you use a credit card, you don't have to worry about a cash deposit.

If anybody wants general advice (as opposed to the EE/ITpalooza this thread has become), here's mine:

1. The job market really sucks right now. Sorry. You're probably not gonna get your "dream job," unless your dad is a CEO. So you should probably settle (for now) for a regular, kinda cruddy job. The fact is, most jobs kinda suck. That's why it's called work.
2. If you are fortunate enough to get a regular, cruddy job, show up every day. Don't call in sick on Monday. Everybody knows that means you're hung over. Do that a couple of times and you're gone. There are literally hundreds of people waiting to replace you.
3. Don't be in a hurry to find a mentor or in-group at work. Wait a month or two and see who the office weasels and suck-ups are. There are a lot of them. They welcome you and invite you out for drinks after work one night, you have a few too many, start griping about this or that, then the next day, your supervisor seems to not like you anymore. That's because your new best office friend ratted you out (not that he or she will ever admit it).
4. Speaking of complaining, probably best to save it for friends and family. At least be in the job for more than 6 months before you start biatching to coworkers about how much it sucks, if you insist on complaining at work.
5. Don't half-ass something just because it's "busy work" or something you feel is beneath you, unless you want to get fired. Your supervisors won't agree that you're too good to file or copy. They'll think that if you're so stupid you can't file or copy correctly, you're probably too stupid to do anything else.

That's all I got, for what it's worth ...

Shazam999:

Sometimes, you need to move to find a job.

And sometimes moving means your spouse loses his/her current job.

G. Tarrant:

My boss at the time drew an RC circuit on his board - one resistor, one capacitor - with a DC battery, said the initial state was zero, and asked her what would happen, describe it, write something out, do SOMETHING. She had no idea. She acknowledged being required to take a class on it, but she put everything into SPICE or the like and thus could not explain what was actually happening inside the circuit. She eventually burst into tears.


That's why you hire a someone with a B.S. in physics. He/she could answer it immediately, and even write down and solve the differential equation on paper. No computer needed. If you throw an inductor into the circuit, he'd be able to tell you the characteristic time constant.

G. Tarrant: All of the stuff about law school and engineering makes me consider asking for advice...

I have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering, have a decent job as an engineer (I am not in academia or anything like that). However, I've always loved law, and still read most of the more interesting appellate and Supreme Court cases that come down the pipe. As an undergraduate I took a sort of "Introduction to law" course and did quite well, the professor telling me that the brief I had to write was better than many he sees from his early law students, and that if I didn't go into law I'd be shortchanging both myself and the profession. Alas, I stayed in engineering.

I don't dislike my work, but still have a passion for reading and learning about law, and have considered attempting law school and doing something that could merge my scientific and technical knowledge with law (is there something in that field besides IP/patent? Is that a good field? I'd almost certainly enjoy it).

So, random questions...do law schools actually accept people that have been out in the workforce for so long? Is there some way to pay for it besides taking out quadrillions of dollars in loans? Is it possible to do (if at a slower pace) while I keep my job, but not as a result go to a school that no one will care I went to? I live in the DC/VA/MD area.

With your background, consider becoming a patent agent (law school not required), and if you like that, then consider getting a JD. Honestly, with your background (and the fact you have a "decent" job), I wouldn't be in a hurry to chuck that away with a full time law program. Unlike the rest of the legal world, patent folks are the one category that can go to law school night programs and still end up with gigs.

FizixJunkee: CujoQuarrel:

Use a branded (Visa, MC) debit card.

That won't keep you from having to put down a $500 cash deposit when you rent a car with a debit card. If you use a credit card, you don't have to worry about a cash deposit.

eh? I've never had to do that.

CujoQuarrel: FizixJunkee: CujoQuarrel:

Use a branded (Visa, MC) debit card.

That won't keep you from having to put down a $500 cash deposit when you rent a car with a debit card. If you use a credit card, you don't have to worry about a cash deposit.

eh? I've never had to do that.

Online "Pay it Now" reservations on Hertz.com tell you that you must reserve with a credit card, not a debit card; however, it cannot tell the difference between the two.

didn't read the thread or the article. What number is "you don't know shiat"?

cgraves67: Creating a Google Alert for your own name? That sounds both narcissistic and paranoid, and yet I just did it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I've had a google alert for my name for years. I look at it along the same lines as setting up alerts for major bank/credit card activity.

It helps that I have an uncommon name. It'd probably be totally useless if your name is John Smith.

Port1080: Don't go to law school grad school, it's time to drop the fries, and 26 other things new college grads should know

FTFY. Unless you have a very specific career goal in a field that has a lot of well paying jobs and requires the degree (so med school is okay, veterinary school, dentistry, etc.), it's very rarely going to be worth your time to do it right out of undergrad. DEFINITELY don't do it just because you don't know what else to do with your life, or pretty soon you'll be 31, still working on your dissertation, and realizing that you made a big mistake about a decade ago that you're never really going to make up in terms of career advancement / earning potential.

/speaks from experience
//the heavy drinking was fun for the first two or three years though

Just graduated today with a Masters of Accounting, starting a job in in a couple of months. I considered an MBA but realized I needed a specific discipline when I learned the gent sitting across from me in my old dead-end job has two (!) MBAs

Katie98_KT, Salt Lick Steady,

Getting a federal job is crazy complicated because of the numerous hiring authorities. I assume
park ranger type jobs are Title 5 jobs, but I don't know for sure because I don't work in that agency.

If announced externally (rare, but it happens) then anyone may apply. However, you will face veterans with their veterans preference (sp?). There is no way to win against that unless you are a vet too.

If announced internally (more likely) then there are restrictions on who may apply. Usually it is "status eligible" people. Sometimes it is more specific, like "status eligible" and people who are current agency employees, etc.

Of course, if you have a targeted disability, you might be able to apply via Schedule A for a temp to perm appointment.

It really is a clusterfark of contradictory and pointless regulations.

Are you a vet? Certain vets have "veterans preference" for federal jobs.

Are you a current, non-temporary federal employee? If yes and you've been such long enough, then you may now have "status". Your latest SF-50 (block 24) should tell you.

/ federal HR
// wants to gtfo

CujoQuarrel: FizixJunkee: CujoQuarrel:

Use a branded (Visa, MC) debit card.

That won't keep you from having to put down a $500 cash deposit when you rent a car with a debit card. If you use a credit card, you don't have to worry about a cash deposit.

eh? I've never had to do that.


Quote:


"Avis reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to seek a Debit Card authorization hold in excess of the estimated rental charges. When using a debit card at Avis there may be a minimum hold of $500 and a maximum hold of the estimated rental charges will be placed on your account.

Upon returning the vehicle, Avis will process a release of the unused portion of the hold subject to your Bank's procedures. The hold may take up to 2 weeks to be released by your bank."

Linky Linky

Everyone who isn't doing awesome at anything other than engineering should have either been an engineer or a tradesman. There is an infinite demand for plumbing, welding, overly specialized machine work, etc, and those jobs wouldn't be seeing shiatty wages or unemployment as a result of so many more people doing it.

The engineers, and maybe the chemists and such, can blame foreigners. Nothing is their fault.

MBA Whore: Katie98_KT, Salt Lick Steady,

Getting a federal job is crazy complicated because of the numerous hiring authorities. I assume
park ranger type jobs are Title 5 jobs, but I don't know for sure because I don't work in that agency.

If announced externally (rare, but it happens) then anyone may apply. However, you will face veterans with their veterans preference (sp?). There is no way to win against that unless you are a vet too.

If announced internally (more likely) then there are restrictions on who may apply. Usually it is "status eligible" people. Sometimes it is more specific, like "status eligible" and people who are current agency employees, etc.

Of course, if you have a targeted disability, you might be able to apply via Schedule A for a temp to perm appointment.

It really is a clusterfark of contradictory and pointless regulations.

Are you a vet? Certain vets have "veterans preference" for federal jobs.

Are you a current, non-temporary federal employee? If yes and you've been such long enough, then you may now have "status". Your latest SF-50 (block 24) should tell you.

/ federal HR
// wants to gtfo

Thanks for backing me up :)

MBA Whore: Are you a vet? Certain vets have "veterans preference" for federal jobs.

I don't know what the preference is for all jobs, but for US Border Patrol its +5% to your score on a written test that half the people who take score below passing on (not saying its necessarily super hard, nor have I taken it, but stats are stats. It could just be moronic people apply for that job more often, as well as failures reapplying). 5% is not an insurmountable obstacle for non-vets.

Smackledorfer: MBA Whore: Are you a vet? Certain vets have "veterans preference" for federal jobs.

I don't know what the preference is for all jobs, but for US Border Patrol its +5% to your score on a written test that half the people who take score below passing on (not saying its necessarily super hard, nor have I taken it, but stats are stats. It could just be moronic people apply for that job more often, as well as failures reapplying). 5% is not an insurmountable obstacle for non-vets.


US Border Patrol is most likely a "excepted service" appointment, meaning it isn't subject to the clusterfark of Title 5 regulations. Most police / military / intel / etc type jobs are "excepted service" appointments, meaning the agency has far more hiring / firing authority than Title 5 agencies. Unofficially though, I promise they are going to consider the vet before the non-vet.