BronyMedic: Except that's not what happened, and - key here - the identical twin - was known to go by his brother's identity and give that information to police.

And he had ID in his brothers name? He lived in his brothers house? He drove his brothers car? Just because someone once gave the name 'Barack Obama' to the cops, does that mean they can arrest the President? Or do they actually have a duty to check into the person's identity further?

So, please tell me how he was held for a "couple of days", Fred?

36 hours. Lessee. That's a day and a half. Rounding up, 2 days. 2 = 'a couple'.

Oh, and if he was arrested on, say Monday at 6pm, he'd be released on Wednesday at 6am. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. 1 day, 2 days, three days, ah ah ah.

Besides, I never said he was held for a couple of days. That was a fictional scenario, humorously explaining how his incarceration might have happened.. Sheesh.

And the bigger issue is, why wasn't the warrant voided after the 'evil' twin died?

Man On A Mission: Maybe most of the law-abiding Farkers here think spending 36 hours behind bars is a vacation, but that is far too long to do a simple fingerprint check. Bad police work is still bad police work.

As anyone should well know, reading comprehension is an important life skill - be it debating how bad the pigs are on FARK, or enjoying a simple session of Mommy Porn from the book 50 Shades of Grey.

The Warrant was a Federal Warrant. In this case, the locals hold the individual involved, and call in the Federal Agency who issued the warrant - the Marshalls Service, FBI, ATF, etc, for everything else. They have no authority to release a federal prisoner after arrest without a court order.

fredklein: That was a fictional scenario, humorously explaining

That describes, in essence, your entire dog in this hunt.

But yeah. We get it. PIGS BAD. PIGS CORRUPT. WHARGARBLDERP.

ongbok: No. The warrant said Mitch and the affidavit said Mike. They had Mitch in custody, the name on the warrant. Either the warrant or the affidavit could have been a typo.

Mike
Mitch

Three letters different. That's one hell of a typo.

So they did the correct thing, they handed him over to the people that issued the warrant, you know the people who knew who they were looking for, to sort it out, and they sorted it out and released him immediately. This is how these things work.

I just think it'd be better if they verify who they are arresting before arresting them. ::shrug::

Magorn: And as I noted upthread, identical twins can have the same fingerprints, in fact they are likely to , since the other word for identical twin, is "clone"

Um...

http://multiples.about.com/cs/funfacts/a/twinfingerprint.htm

So, do identical twins have identical fingerprints? The basic answer is NO. Identical -- or monozygotic -- twins form when a single fertilized egg splits in two after conception. Because they form from a single zygote, the two individuals will have the same genetic makeup. Their DNA is virtually indistinguishable.

However, fingerprints are not an entirely genetic characteristic. Scientists love to use this topic as an example of the old "nature vs. nurture" debate. Fingerprinting, along with other physical characteristics, is an example of a phenotype -- meaning that it is determined by the interaction of an indivdual's genes and the developmental environment in the uterus.

The ultimate shape of fingerprints are believed to be influenced by environmental factors during pregnancy, like nutrition, blood pressure, position in the womb and the growth rate of the fingers at the end of the first trimester. Thus, you will find similar patterns of whorls and ridges in the fingerprints of identical twins. But there will also be differences -- just as there are differences between the fingers on any individual's hands.

BronyMedic: But yeah. We get it. PIGS BAD. PIGS CORRUPT. WHARGARBLDERP.

All I said was that I thought they should properly identify the person they are arresting before they arrest them. That's all.

How you get 'pigs bad' from that, I don't know.

ongbok: So if you have two different names on the paper work and a guy in custody who matches one of the names on the paper work you wouldn't wait for the people who know who they are looking for to verify who they are looking for?

No- I'd continue to investigate his identity on my own. Anyone can give a false name to the cops. Being a twin just helps a little because any pictures of the 'good' twin will match the 'bad' twin. But, unless he totally took over the 'good' twins life, the 'bad' twin doesn't live in the 'good' twin's house. He doesn't drive the 'good' twins car. He doesn't sleep with the 'good' twin's wife. Etc.

Also, if the person is claiming he's being mistaken for he DEAD twin bother, how about looking up death records?

I guess that's too much work. Just pass it off to someone else.

I know a guy who used that. I'll never forgive my brother for ratting me out.

Magorn: Mearen: BronyMedic: Man On A Mission: slayer199: So long as the police followed procedures, the lawsuit doesn't have a chance in hell.

How is arresting someone with a different name proper police procedure? Warrant was for a Michael, guy arrested is a Mitchell. Seems pretty basic, especially from a legal standpoint.

Pardon my french, but, just how farking nieve are you?

"No, officer. You're looking for my dead twin!" "Well, damn. Why would he lie to us?"

That's why they use fingerprints, moron.

And as I noted upthread, identical twins can have the same fingerprints, in fact they are likely to , since the other word for identical twin, is "clone"

Fingerprints aren't genetic. Well, having them is, but the pattern comes from environmental factors. Even identical twins don't have the same fingerprints.

Magorn: [explanation]

Ok, scratch my last comment.

ongbok: Another piece of paperwork said Mike so how would they know who they were supposed to arrest?

"Hello, FBI? We have a 'Mitch' in custody, but he claims that his twin 'Mike' is the one we want.. and that Mike's dead. Also some of the paperwork does have "Mike" on it. We did check the death records and do see a 'Mike' who is dead. Can you please confirm who you want?... Fingerprints? Yeah, I'm sending them now... They don't match? Thanks, we'll release him."
"Mitch? Sorry about detaining you for 10 minutes while we straightened that out. You are free to go. Have a nice day."

Magorn: Thus for purposes of fingerprint analysis fingerprints of identical twins are more than close enough to cause them to "Match" in a law enforcement context

And if I close my eyes, a kindergarten drawing looks just like a Renoir.

The claim was "identical twins can have the same fingerprints", not that "if compared in a sufficiently non-rigorous manner, twins fingerprints can be similar enough to be be considered a 'match'."

fredklein: ongbok: Another piece of paperwork said Mike so how would they know who they were supposed to arrest?

"Hello, FBI? We have a 'Mitch' in custody, but he claims that his twin 'Mike' is the one we want.. and that Mike's dead. Also some of the paperwork does have "Mike" on it. We did check the death records and do see a 'Mike' who is dead. Can you please confirm who you want?... Fingerprints? Yeah, I'm sending them now... They don't match? Thanks, we'll release him."
"Mitch? Sorry about detaining you for 10 minutes while we straightened that out. You are free to go. Have a nice day."

What kind of Star Trek-like world do you live in where all that can happen in ten minutes or less?

Hell. Call the FBI as a local sheriff and you'll probably spend more time than that just on hold.

I'm torn. I want to live in your universe, but I think you've just been watching too much TV.

Also, privacy nightmare.

ongbok: And plus how do you know you could have immediately gotten his death records? What if he died in California and you are in Georgia? This isn't TV and that stuff doesn't get sent to you 5 seconds after you call to request it

You're right. It's not like there's a world-wide inter-connected series of computer networks that can transmit data over long distances. And there certainly aren't databases that contain things like Vital Statistic records that would (if they existed) be accessible over that series of networks (if it existed).

Oh, wait....

_{(And yes, before you say it, this is probably the wrong 'Mike'. And it's from a 'Family-Placed Death Notice', not any Official Records site. Sheesh. It's an example. Cops should have access to the appropriate databases, etc.)}

dv-ous: What kind of Star Trek-like world do you live in where all that can happen in ten minutes or less?

Hell. Call the FBI as a local sheriff and you'll probably spend more time than that just on hold.


Fine. A half hour. 45 minutes even.

But 36 hours?!?

fredklein: dv-ous: What kind of Star Trek-like world do you live in where all that can happen in ten minutes or less?

Hell. Call the FBI as a local sheriff and you'll probably spend more time than that just on hold.


Fine. A half hour. 45 minutes even.

But 36 hours?!?

In government agency time, 36 hours is synonymous with instantaneous.

Csb time:
I have a cousin who shares the same first and last name with me. Different middle names and he is a couple years older.

He has spent probably 10 of the last 20 years in and out of a Parish jail here in Louisiana. I was riding through that parish one day and was pulled over. The policeman looked at my license, did a double take and asked "Haven't you spent some time with us? I think their is a warrant for your arrest too". I explained the situation, he called it in and verified the middle name and birthdate. He came back and asked me if I knew where my cousin was, I told him nope (I really didn't) and he told me if I ran into him to let him know the Parish would like to talk to him.

I pulled away thinking "I am SO glad he took the time to verify".

End csb

ongbok: They did identify the person. The warrant said Mitch and they had Mitch. Another piece of paperwork said Mike so how would they know who they were supposed to arrest? They did what they were supposed to do and held the person for the agency who knew who they wanted to arrest. If this had been a local warrant I could see anger being pointed at the department over this, but since it wasn't a warrant issued by them they did what they were supposed to do.

Indeed. And, if they'd gotten it wrong (ie. they really did have the "evil twin"), released him, and he went on a crime spree, imagine the howling then!

Being incarcerated 36 hours sucks, but it's far better than a wrongful conviction. I'm having a hard time getting too worked up about this. Sure, it seems like it could have been faster, but it wasn't the end of the world. In any case, I don't see how due process was violated.

Note to parents of twins: Give your kids more distinct names, rather than names that are nearly a typo away from each other.

namegoeshere: slayer199: So long as the police followed procedures, the lawsuit doesn't have a chance in hell.

As soon as they verified he wasn't the dead twin, they let him go.

I hate LE shenanigans as much as the next guy, but THIS. His beef is with his dead brother, not the cops. So he should find a lawyer who is skilled with a Ouija board, or just get over it.

If they would've trusted me, if they would've given me the benefit of the doubt, if they would've done that, none of this would've happened," Mitch Torbett says.

LOL, that's not how it works, son.

Cops didn't run the fingerprints/get a positive ID according to TFA - they tossed him in a cell for the FBI to sort out later, wasting everyone's time and money. They should have and then notified the FBI that it was the twin, at which point the FBI could have told them it was the wrong brother. The paperwork all had the dead brother's name according to TFA. Paperwork and ID didn't match. If the fingerprints didn't match either... well, it's not neurosurgery. Name "unknown - do not change" tells me there may have been questions. Keeping the guy in jail might not have been the best way to sort those questions out.

Conversely, if he knew his dead twin was a criminal, he might have considered going after the funeral and presenting the death certificate to clear things up two years ago. Suing is a bit on the stupid side, imo, if you know your dead twin is a scumbag.

gopher321: [www.mojoimage.com image 300x311]
*grins*

It took six posts to get this in? You're slipping, Fark!

Didn't the arresting agency have the ability to run fingerprints BEFORE they put him in a cell for 36 hours?

IF Michael and Mitchell are twins, Michael is a law breaker and Mitchell is not. Michael's prints will be on file with a criminal record.
At some point, it Michael decides to be an a-hole and give Mitchell's name, the police and/or FBI may assume that Miitchell/Mitch is merely an alias for Michael. Fair enough.

If Mitchell (good guy) shows up at the local PD to get a CCW or some business license and they do a name check, they'll come up with a warrant for a Mitch/Mitchell or Michael. The descriptions will match.

The only thing Mitchell can do is say "I'm Mitchell, Michael is my dickhead dead twin brother". A cop could go "fine, we'll print you and if you're lying we can add an obstruction charge." When the prints from the guy in front of them do not lead to the record of the subject of the warrant, calls should be made to the agency who has the warrant to see if they want to do anything different. If they felt like it, they could run the name Michael and see what they have on him. If nothing but an integrity check, they should ask why the prints they have don't come back to the guy they think they have.

We know in this case that Mitchell and Michael have different prints so this local check could have saved quite a bit of time OR at least eased the mind of Mitchell-"Hey dude, we talked to the FBI and they're on their way, they still want to run the prints themselves before they clear you. You need to make another phone call?"

The Hamilton County Sheriff's Office also says the warrant was under Mitch's name, but the affidavit shows "Mike Torbett," Mitch's twin.

How much you wanna bet the arresting officer changed it from Mike to Mitch so he could arrest this guy?

The Southern Dandy: The Hamilton County Sheriff's Office also says the warrant was under Mitch's name, but the affidavit shows "Mike Torbett," Mitch's twin.

How much you wanna bet the arresting officer changed it from Mike to Mitch so he could arrest this guy?

I assume you have proof that someone fraudulantly altered a Federal Warrant, which is - itsself - a federal crime?

No, you're pulling it out of your ass? Imagine that.

BronyMedic: The Southern Dandy: The Hamilton County Sheriff's Office also says the warrant was under Mitch's name, but the affidavit shows "Mike Torbett," Mitch's twin.

How much you wanna bet the arresting officer changed it from Mike to Mitch so he could arrest this guy?

I assume you have proof that someone fraudulantly altered a Federal Warrant, which is - itsself - a federal crime?

No, you're pulling it out of your ass? Imagine that.

I'm sorry you have the reading comprehension of a third grader, but I never said I had proof. I said "What do you want to bet..." implying that I question the cops credibility more than the suspects.

The Southern Dandy: The Hamilton County Sheriff's Office also says the warrant was under Mitch's name, but the affidavit shows "Mike Torbett," Mitch's twin.

How much you wanna bet the arresting officer changed it from Mike to Mitch so he could arrest this guy?

My personal bet is the warrant says "Mike Torbett" but lists Mitch Torbett as an alias when you call up Mike Torbett's records, since the article suggests the evil twin used to give out the good twin's name. So the affidavit does show Mike, but given Mitch was listed as an alias they had legit cause to hold the good twin.

I'm having trouble on the outrage, although 36 hours does seem a bit long. I'm assuming that this is because one of the police stations involved in this didn't have an automated way of doing prints and needed them sent in via overnight mail and then done in a lab.

Really we should have some kind of standard for arrest under 48 hours/wrong guy type of stuff. The LEOs refund your legal bills, you get an apology, and X amount of money per day held. Give the cops some incentive to process paperwork quickly and avoid this situations while not paying out millions in lawsuits if/when this happens.

I was once arrested and held for like a day because I looked like a guy that had broken out of prison while I was driving near said prison. Wasn't released till prints came back even though I had every form of ID imaginable to show that I was not the droid they seeked,

ongbok: fredklein: ongbok: No. The warrant said Mitch and the affidavit said Mike. They had Mitch in custody, the name on the warrant. Either the warrant or the affidavit could have been a typo.

Mike
Mitch

Three letters different. That's one hell of a typo.

So they did the correct thing, they handed him over to the people that issued the warrant, you know the people who knew who they were looking for, to sort it out, and they sorted it out and released him immediately. This is how these things work.

I just think it'd be better if they verify who they are arresting before arresting them. ::shrug::

So if you have two different names on the paper work and a guy in custody who matches one of the names on the paper work you wouldn't wait for the people who know who they are looking for to verify who they are looking for? Since they had 2 different names on the paper work they probably didn't know who they were supposed to arrest and held waited for the people who were looking for him. Plus there is the fact since it was a federal warrant, they didn't have the authority to release them.



This is not the twin you're looking for...

LovingTeacher: spentmiles: This makes no sense and verges on a miscarriage of justice. The two men are identical twins which means they are the same person on all levels -- physiological, emotional, and mental. If one twin was capable of the crime, then the other twin has the same thoughts and feelings toward it. He's just as guilty and culpable. They should apply whatever punishment to him that his twin brother escaped through death.

10/10

bonus points for creativity

Well, according to Pro-Lifers, "life begins at conception", one assembled set of genes in a zygote makes a person. I'm just saying, that's what they went with, the brain and all that isn't the identity, only the genes.

So since it's the same zygote in the case of identical twins, they're the same person, the same soul. Or, there was only one conception, so only one twin can have a soul. The other's just a walking, self-feeding tumor.

Hmm, but on the contrary, if you had identical twins and say "meh I don't think I can do this, let's just abort ONE", they'd still call that murder, even though we only reduced the mass of life created at conception here.

ha-ha-guy:
Really we should have some kind of standard for arrest under 48 hours/wrong guy type of stuff. The LEOs refund your legal bills, you get an apology, and X amount of money per day held. Give the cops some incentive to process paperwork quickly and avoid this situations while not paying out millions in lawsuits if/when this happens.

I'm browsing Lexus Nexus right now, but I'm pretty sure that the law makes provisions for financhial reimbursement based on lost wages and time.

The Southern Dandy: I'm sorry you have the reading comprehension of a third grader, but I never said I had proof. I said "What do you want to bet..." implying that I question the cops credibility more than the suspects.

I never assumed you did. I was simply pointing out you were using ass-pulls to construct a strawman to make your irrational hatred seem far more based in reality than it actually is.

Sounds like a good way for Goofus to screw over Gallant.

Aigoo: namegoeshere: slayer199: So long as the police followed procedures, the lawsuit doesn't have a chance in hell.

As soon as they verified he wasn't the dead twin, they let him go.

I hate LE shenanigans as much as the next guy, but THIS. His beef is with his dead brother, not the cops. So he should find a lawyer who is skilled with a Ouija board, or just get over it.

If they would've trusted me, if they would've given me the benefit of the doubt, if they would've done that, none of this would've happened," Mitch Torbett says.

LOL, that's not how it works, son.

Cops didn't run the fingerprints/get a positive ID according to TFA - they tossed him in a cell for the FBI to sort out later, wasting everyone's time and money. They should have and then notified the FBI that it was the twin, at which point the FBI could have told them it was the wrong brother. The paperwork all had the dead brother's name according to TFA. Paperwork and ID didn't match. If the fingerprints didn't match either... well, it's not neurosurgery. Name "unknown - do not change" tells me there may have been questions. Keeping the guy in jail might not have been the best way to sort those questions out.


Not all police stations come equipped with Abby's lab. They may not have had the ability to run the fingerprints instantly. Also, as has been said, it was a federal warrant. If there is a doubt about his id, letting the FBI sort it out was probably the best course of action.

At least they gave him food, water, and a bathroom.

spentmiles: This makes no sense and verges on a miscarriage of justice. The two men are identical twins which means they are the same person on all levels -- physiological, emotional, and mental. If one twin was capable of the crime, then the other twin has the same thoughts and feelings toward it. He's just as guilty and culpable. They should apply whatever punishment to him that his twin brother escaped through death.

Below average.

fredklein: ongbok: And plus how do you know you could have immediately gotten his death records? What if he died in California and you are in Georgia? This isn't TV and that stuff doesn't get sent to you 5 seconds after you call to request it

You're right. It's not like there's a world-wide inter-connected series of computer networks that can transmit data over long distances. And there certainly aren't databases that contain things like Vital Statistic records that would (if they existed) be accessible over that series of networks (if it existed).

Oh, wait....

(And yes, before you say it, this is probably the wrong 'Mike'. And it's from a 'Family-Placed Death Notice', not any Official Records site. Sheesh. It's an example. Cops should have access to the appropriate databases, etc.)

His incarceration was perfectly justified, as he was related to someone who had committed a crime, and was therefore at a higher risk of doing so himself. Even though he himself had done nothing wrong, it was reasonable to deprive him of his rights based on a higher perceived risk.

I believe that was your stance on the Japanese-American internment camps, yes? Now, all of a sudden, you are concerned about people being wrongfully detained???

Magorn: A similar situation led to the one and only time I was able to offer "Sir? have you considered getting a large and very prominent Tattoo?" as legal advice.

year ago when I worked as the all-around fix-it legal guy for a DC suburban court, a guy came into my office was in the same pickle: he was a solid citizen, his identical twin brother wasn't. Thus he had outstanding warrants for any number of petty crimes and missed paternity hearings. To make matters worse, the twin's mother had named them Danita and Donita. So whenever the warrant was issued for Don, it invariably read Donita, AKA Danita "Jones". Worse yet, he was the kind of identical twin that had exactly matching fingerprints as his brother, so whenever cops ran the prints after he protested they had the wrong guy, they refused to believe him.

All the time he spent in the slammer was really starting to affect his job prospects, his realtionships with women etc etc.

Knowing I couldn't really advise him to avail himself of the best and most obvious solution, which was of course to kill his brother, I fell back on the Tattoo thing as a good second choice.

Well that, and I got my Favorite Judge to sign a big, impressive , offical-looking order that we had the clerk emboss and seal, and put on fancy paper that found for the record that the bearer of said letter was Danita Jones, and that Danita did in fact have an identical twin brother Donita, and that Danita was NOT an Alias of Donita and that anyone excuting a warrant on Danita should call the clerk and or judge's chamber to check the validity of said warrant.


Poor SOB, I hope it helped at least a little.

You had me until there.
0/10

MycroftHolmes: I believe that was your stance on the Japanese-American internment camps, yes? Now, all of a sudden, you are concerned about people being wrongfully detained???

We're not at war.

My entire point in that thread was that actually being at war changes things.

RobSeace: Ah, yes, that little-known fine-print clause in the constitution which reads, "Note: not valid in times of war!"...

The Law say you can't murder people.... but in War shooting the enemy isn't just allowed, it's expected.

But I explained all that back on the other thread. It's off topic here.

Magorn: fredklein: Magorn: And as I noted upthread, identical twins can have the same fingerprints, in fact they are likely to , since the other word for identical twin, is "clone"

Um...

http://multiples.about.com/cs/funfacts/a/twinfingerprint.htm

So, do identical twins have identical fingerprints? The basic answer is NO. Identical -- or monozygotic -- twins form when a single fertilized egg splits in two after conception. Because they form from a single zygote, the two individuals will have the same genetic makeup. Their DNA is virtually indistinguishable.

However, fingerprints are not an entirely genetic characteristic. Scientists love to use this topic as an example of the old "nature vs. nurture" debate. Fingerprinting, along with other physical characteristics, is an example of a phenotype -- meaning that it is determined by the interaction of an indivdual's genes and the developmental environment in the uterus.

The ultimate shape of fingerprints are believed to be influenced by environmental factors during pregnancy, like nutrition, blood pressure, position in the womb and the growth rate of the fingers at the end of the first trimester. Thus, you will find similar patterns of whorls and ridges in the fingerprints of identical twins. But there will also be differences -- just as there are differences between the fingers on any individual's hands.

Cecil's wrong about this, but not for the biological resason he cites but because, and this will come as a shock to a lot of people, fingerprint "matching" is junk science and basically pure quackery.

It does not happen like you see it on CSI where one fingerprint perfectly super-imposes on another and the computer chirps to indicate a match. istead matching is done by hand, and there is no accepted standard on how many points of comparison have to match for the pritns to be declared a match, or even what points to use. Each examiner has thier own ideas and proceedures. This is partiall because a lifted print, or ev ...

Know how I know that you don't know anything about finger print analysis? Just to start with, identical twins have never been shown to have the same finger prints. Ever. So, your basic premise fails. Second, in this case they wouldn't have been comparing difficult latent prints which were smudged and incomplete. They were comparing prints on print cards. Which is so easy, a caveman could do it (almost). Finally, while you are correct that there is no national standard (in the US) regarding points of similarity, that is totally irrelevant in a case where you've got a 10-print card to work with.

tl;dr - you're an idiot