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(CNN)   Okay, desperate defense of the F-22 program is coming out   (news.blogs.cnn.com) divider line 203
    More: Stupid, Yoshiaki Iwasaki  
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17220 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2012 at 3:40 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-07 01:13:57 PM
Why does Congress wait until an aircraft is finally built before cancelling them? They did the same thing with the Comanche. It finally met requirements and was built, and THEN they scrapped it.
 
2012-05-07 01:16:32 PM
Some tweets from the article:

Did you know that F-22 supercruise speeds are greater than Mach 1.5 without afterburners?

So does the F/A-18 Super Hornet only it does it in combat instead of on paper and for only 25% of the cost.


I never knew twitter could be so much fun.

Why are we building these things again? If you insist on building them, why are we building them so poorly? Didn't we need to figure out oxygen generation decades ago? What makes it so hard on this jet?
 
2012-05-07 01:21:45 PM
Lockheed doesn't want to lose that juicy contract because their product is poisoning pilots. I read somewhere that the pilots were breathing what was basically antifreeze.
 
2012-05-07 01:24:29 PM
I love this meme.
 
2012-05-07 01:26:15 PM
So basically you have to fly with the windows open?
Nice work.
 
2012-05-07 01:29:32 PM

Gig103: Why does Congress wait until an aircraft is finally built before cancelling them? They did the same thing with the Comanche. It finally met requirements and was built, and THEN they scrapped it.


well, funding for R&D happens 20-30 years before the actual delivery ...
so now that we have the replacement, we discover we dont need it ...
not really a problem

Civilians will see the same thing in the next 20-40 years. A cheap, plentiful, clean replacement for gasoline will be developed. But most americans will have replaced their gasoline cars with all electric cars, which they re-charge at home and at work.
 
2012-05-07 01:33:57 PM
Lockheed Martin is running scared. Remember all those billions in cuts with defense, Medicare, Social Security budgets pending because Congress couldn't make a budget deal previously.

I predict, sadly, Congress will not lift those cuts which will negatively impact our country before the Novemeber 2012 elections. Again, it's part of the GOP plan to regain power at ANY COST.
 
2012-05-07 01:37:43 PM
♫ When the rain comes
They pull them into sheds
They might as well be sleds
When the rain comes...
When the rain comes ♫
 
2012-05-07 01:48:31 PM
I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned. You can really increase performance and reduce engineering complexity when you don't have to deal with a pressurized cockpit and keeping a pilot alive. Bonus: You do not need to do a search and rescue opration when a bird goes down. Either self destruct or do a bombing mission to destroy whats left of the aircraft.
 
2012-05-07 01:57:39 PM

sammyk: I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned. You can really increase performance and reduce engineering complexity when you don't have to deal with a pressurized cockpit and keeping a pilot alive. Bonus: You do not need to do a search and rescue opration when a bird goes down. Either self destruct or do a bombing mission to destroy whats left of the aircraft.


And pilots don't have to fit a certain height, weight, and vision requirement allowing more people to be eligible candidates for pilot.
 
2012-05-07 02:01:34 PM

sammyk: I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned. You can really increase performance and reduce engineering complexity when you don't have to deal with a pressurized cockpit and keeping a pilot alive. Bonus: You do not need to do a search and rescue opration when a bird goes down. Either self destruct or do a bombing mission to destroy whats left of the aircraft.


this this more this

you have to deal with jamming. but that is technically a non-issue.
you toss in automation for when the bird is not connected to base.

tons of fail-safe backup self destruct/disable systems prevent the bird from ever getting into the hands of the bad guys

I cant wait until they completely replace the air force with the geek squad. FFS, some of the game players have insane reaction times and skillz. plus, in theory, all testing and training takes place in simulators with the controllers having no idea if they are connected to real planes or sims.

wait, wasnt there an awesome short story about this?
ender's game?
I heard it was expanded into a terrible novel. with cutout characters added to extend the story.

/short story was one of the best ever written
 
2012-05-07 02:02:47 PM
Oh don't worry, S.H.I.E.L.D. got all those problems ironed out.
 
2012-05-07 02:03:11 PM

antidisestablishmentarianism: sammyk: I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned. You can really increase performance and reduce engineering complexity when you don't have to deal with a pressurized cockpit and keeping a pilot alive. Bonus: You do not need to do a search and rescue opration when a bird goes down. Either self destruct or do a bombing mission to destroy whats left of the aircraft.

And pilots don't have to fit a certain height, weight, and vision requirement allowing more people to be eligible candidates for pilot.


sex, race, age
FFS, you could have multiple people controlling different aspects of the device. rather than one or two people.

/this would make a fun raid
 
2012-05-07 02:21:01 PM

sammyk: I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned. You can really increase performance and reduce engineering complexity when you don't have to deal with a pressurized cockpit and keeping a pilot alive. Bonus: You do not need to do a search and rescue opration when a bird goes down. Either self destruct or do a bombing mission to destroy whats left of the aircraft.


I agree with you that the weakest link in the current generation of fighter planes is the 150-175lbs of meat they have to carry, however, UAVs can't self-destruct, at least not in a big badaboom! way. It would be too dangerous as they would have to be considered "live ammo" any time there was fuel in them. Best case scenario, is have a "nose-dive-to-the-ground-and-hope-gravity-does-its-job" routine in their program, but that wouldn't work in cases, like the one where the Iranians faked GPS signals to fool the UAV into thinking it was back home, because the UAV wouldn't notice it was lost; or cases where the guidance system fails over a populated area, just to name these two.
 
2012-05-07 02:23:50 PM

sammyk: I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned. You can really increase performance and reduce engineering complexity when you don't have to deal with a pressurized cockpit and keeping a pilot alive. Bonus: You do not need to do a search and rescue opration when a bird goes down. Either self destruct or do a bombing mission to destroy whats left of the aircraft.


I'm almost certain that we are, but it's just still classified. Think about the stealth technology developed last century- everyone knew there was some kind of stealth program, but no one knew exactly how stealthy the planes were. The other reason to keep this kind of project a secret would be people who have a problem with robots doing killing.

It should be no surprise to anyone to see robotic warfighters in the near future, but what will be secret is exactly how high they can fly, how fast they can go, and how much cargo they can carry.
 
2012-05-07 02:28:13 PM

namatad: sex, race, age
FFS, you could have multiple people controlling different aspects of the device. rather than one or two people.

/this would make a fun raid


That's what I was thinking. A pilot with insane reaction times controlling a craft that could pull way more G's than any human could live through, An egghead doing nothing but electronic counter measures, A weapons guy....Then the command structure could be sitting in the same room FFS. Direct communication with the joint chiefs and President with live feeds for them to have realtime info....

namatad: you have to deal with jamming. but that is technically a non-issue.
you toss in automation for when the bird is not connected to base.


The drone program has been dealing with these issues for over a decade with great success.
 
2012-05-07 02:33:24 PM

sammyk: namatad: sex, race, age
FFS, you could have multiple people controlling different aspects of the device. rather than one or two people.

/this would make a fun raid

That's what I was thinking. A pilot with insane reaction times controlling a craft that could pull way more G's than any human could live through, An egghead doing nothing but electronic counter measures, A weapons guy....Then the command structure could be sitting in the same room FFS. Direct communication with the joint chiefs and President with live feeds for them to have realtime info....

namatad: you have to deal with jamming. but that is technically a non-issue.
you toss in automation for when the bird is not connected to base.

The drone program has been dealing with these issues for over a decade with great success.


what makes this even more interesting/exciting/fun is that it opens up the air force to an insanely large pool of talent.
short, fat, blind, deaf, terminally ill, the list goes on and on and on.
Toss in backups and as many sub-levels as needed.

and games like world of warcraft have been training people to work collaboratively in small dynamic teams?
the future has become both strange and silly
 
2012-05-07 02:36:49 PM

Flab: I agree with you that the weakest link in the current generation of fighter planes is the 150-175lbs of meat they have to carry, however, UAVs can't self-destruct, at least not in a big badaboom! way. It would be too dangerous as they would have to be considered "live ammo" any time there was fuel in them. Best case scenario, is have a "nose-dive-to-the-ground-and-hope-gravity-does-its-job" routine in their program, but that wouldn't work in cases, like the one where the Iranians faked GPS signals to fool the UAV into thinking it was back home, because the UAV wouldn't notice it was lost; or cases where the guidance system fails over a populated area, just to name these two.


Our military claims that the drone that went down in Iran did have some method of destroying it's data and sensitive internal components. I don't know what that is, just what they reported.

Second, it'd be nearly impossible for a drone to totally loose all idea of where it was. All the intelligent thought I've heard on the subject suggests that GPS satellites will be destroyed within the opening hours or days of a major armed conflict, which necessitates that any GPS reliant system have a reliable and internal backups. Any of these systems are going to have multiple methods of figuring out where they are on earth, as well as a system that allows them to navigate from a last known position.

GPS
Inertial Navigation
Ground Contour Matching

As well as a host of other sensors that can help to confirm or deny the readings from those systems:

Maps of the world
Ground Radar
Radar Altimeter
Barometric Altimeter
Accelerometers
Compass


All these systems will be running in parallel, and once one system starts reporting different results from the rest the platform will examine all the available evidence and make a decision that gives it the highest degree of certainty about it's position on earth.

It'd be extremely hard to fool enough of these systems to legitimately trick something like a UAV or a missile.
 
2012-05-07 02:38:54 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: America's next fighter ace


Sargent Martinez: Capt, we're being invaded!
Capt Gomez: ¿QUE? ¿How can you tell?
SM: They're naked! It's the new uniform of the USAF. A few hundred paratroopers just air-dropped on Cozumel.
CG: Ok. I've got Mexico on line two. Keep me informed of their progress.
 
2012-05-07 02:39:50 PM

Gig103: Why does Congress wait until an aircraft is finally built before cancelling them? They did the same thing with the Comanche. It finally met requirements and was built, and THEN they scrapped it.


The US is a service economy. Such as engineer and design.

We're not to big on manufacturing.
 
2012-05-07 02:42:15 PM

Fubini: As well as a host of other sensors that can help to confirm or deny the readings from those systems:

Maps of the world
Ground Radar
Radar Altimeter
Barometric Altimeter
Accelerometers
Compass


Inertial navigation. Once you tell it where it's at, it will tell you were you're at.
 
2012-05-07 02:43:51 PM
img.photobucket.com
 
2012-05-07 02:44:46 PM

impaler: Inertial navigation


This is why I love this place. I get learned something each day.
 
2012-05-07 02:45:49 PM

Fubini: It'd be extremely hard to fool enough of these systems to legitimately trick something like a UAV or a missile.


Yet, the Iranians apparently did. I'm sure that they weren't the first to think of sending fake GPS signals to trick a UAV (or advancing ground troops, for that matter). I'm sure even North Korean generals have seen Die Hard 2 by now and said "Neat! We need to try this one day!"

Fubini: Inertial Navigation

Fubini: Accelerometers


These two are synonyms, by the way.
 
2012-05-07 02:49:26 PM

Fubini: The other reason to keep this kind of project a secret would be people who have a problem with robots doing killing.


They're not robots any more than this is:
www.rctruckswarehouse.com
 
2012-05-07 02:52:28 PM

Flab: sammyk: I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned. You can really increase performance and reduce engineering complexity when you don't have to deal with a pressurized cockpit and keeping a pilot alive. Bonus: You do not need to do a search and rescue opration when a bird goes down. Either self destruct or do a bombing mission to destroy whats left of the aircraft.

I agree with you that the weakest link in the current generation of fighter planes is the 150-175lbs of meat they have to carry, however, UAVs can't self-destruct, at least not in a big badaboom! way. It would be too dangerous as they would have to be considered "live ammo" any time there was fuel in them. Best case scenario, is have a "nose-dive-to-the-ground-and-hope-gravity-does-its-job" routine in their program, but that wouldn't work in cases, like the one where the Iranians faked GPS signals to fool the UAV into thinking it was back home, because the UAV wouldn't notice it was lost; or cases where the guidance system fails over a populated area, just to name these two.


True, but you have the same problem with current aircraft. I know the special forces used a bunch of C4 to try and destroy the downed chooper in the OBL raid. The Chinese still got the tail rotor. The decision to put ordinance on a downed bird is a whole lot easier when you don't have to worry about killing your own pilot in the process. nothing is perfect but when you are designing a new generation of a weopon system you let the strategists and the engineers work those details out.
 
2012-05-07 03:14:58 PM

Fubini: Flab: I agree with you that the weakest link in the current generation of fighter planes is the 150-175lbs of meat they have to carry, however, UAVs can't self-destruct, at least not in a big badaboom! way. It would be too dangerous as they would have to be considered "live ammo" any time there was fuel in them. Best case scenario, is have a "nose-dive-to-the-ground-and-hope-gravity-does-its-job" routine in their program, but that wouldn't work in cases, like the one where the Iranians faked GPS signals to fool the UAV into thinking it was back home, because the UAV wouldn't notice it was lost; or cases where the guidance system fails over a populated area, just to name these two.

Our military claims that the drone that went down in Iran did have some method of destroying it's data and sensitive internal components. I don't know what that is, just what they reported.

Second, it'd be nearly impossible for a drone to totally loose all idea of where it was. All the intelligent thought I've heard on the subject suggests that GPS satellites will be destroyed within the opening hours or days of a major armed conflict, which necessitates that any GPS reliant system have a reliable and internal backups. Any of these systems are going to have multiple methods of figuring out where they are on earth, as well as a system that allows them to navigate from a last known position.

GPS
Inertial Navigation
Ground Contour Matching

As well as a host of other sensors that can help to confirm or deny the readings from those systems:

Maps of the world
Ground Radar
Radar Altimeter
Barometric Altimeter
Accelerometers
Compass


All these systems will be running in parallel, and once one system starts reporting different results from the rest the platform will examine all the available evidence and make a decision that gives it the highest degree of certainty about it's position on earth.

It'd be extremely hard to fool enough of these systems to legitimately trick something like a UA ...


vernor vinge begs to differ
All systems can be fooled. Esp if they get embedded into the system itself.

seriously, deepness is one of those books which makes me worry a little more than I did before
 
2012-05-07 03:30:42 PM

sammyk: The decision to put ordinance on a downed bird is a whole lot easier when you don't have to worry about killing your own pilot in the process.


Manned or unmanned, you still have to worry about killing everyone around the aircraft. You don't wan't a UAV to go boom on the tarmac before take-off, or worse, in the hangar, while it's being serviced.
 
2012-05-07 03:43:14 PM

namatad: you have to deal with jamming. but that is technically a non-issue.
you toss in automation for when the bird is not connected to base.


That's fine for recon or com planes. It's trickier for fighters/bombers. We usually insist on a human in the loop for weapons-hot situations. We don't need Skynet wandering off to look for Sarah Connor.
 
2012-05-07 03:45:14 PM

Flab: Manned or unmanned, you still have to worry about killing everyone around the aircraft.


An important lesson from MK Pluto.
 
2012-05-07 03:45:44 PM
So, screw full disclosure - we're going to put blurbs on Twitter!
 
2012-05-07 03:48:04 PM
Lockheed Martin is evil, especially as long as I'm not getting any of their money.
 
2012-05-07 03:48:23 PM
I am sure that the F-22 is serving vital national interests in keeping American skies safe from the hordes of... scary terrorists and socialists that are... will... any day now rain fiery death down on the American people...

Nope. Can't do it anymore.

The F-22 is a waste of money. Scrapheap it, give money to the poor. Yay.
 
2012-05-07 03:49:28 PM
The Air Force has been looking into about a dozen unexplained incidents related to hypoxia, or oxygen deficiency, with pilots but has been unable to pinpoint the cause, Air Combat Command has said.

unrealitymag.com

Take my breath awwwaaaaaaaayyyy.....

/it's a long shot, but possibly lack of oxygen?
 
2012-05-07 03:50:28 PM
I still don't understand why we pay them to R&D somethign, then pay them to fix their problems, then pay more for the finished product.

You'd think we've do a half-now half when we get a goof, final product, and make the building pay for any fixes. The current system does nothing but encourage delays, overruns, etc.
 
2012-05-07 03:50:33 PM

Fubini: Our military claims that the drone that went down in Iran did have some method of destroying it's data and sensitive internal components. I don't know what that is, just what they reported.


Most of our aircraft carrying comsec equipent have such devices. One such craft I know of has a big red "COMSEC ZEROIZE" button that has several explicit warnings in the manuals stating that when it says zeroize, it means "Forever gone in a never coming back sort of way. Flip this switch and you are creating a million dollar metal brick."
 
2012-05-07 03:50:37 PM
I'm waiting to hear this news on NBC where they edit all the useless crap out prior to broadcast.
 
2012-05-07 03:51:03 PM

Gig103: Why does Congress wait until an aircraft is finally built before cancelling them? They did the same thing with the Comanche. It finally met requirements and was built, and THEN they scrapped it.


The US military just wouldn't be the US military if it couldn't spend unfathomable amounts of money and get nothing in return.

What's that? The troops on the ground in shiatholistan need body armor? F that, let's buy some planes that are too expensive to fly!
 
2012-05-07 03:51:43 PM
If only there were some inexpensive device... Something that could be called an in-line oximeter and that could alert a pilot if the oxygen level drops below a safe limit. You know, technology that has been being used in hospitals for nearly 40 years. I'll bet that one could be easily adapted to trigger a supplemental oxygen system for a mere $144,795,248.69 per unit.
 
2012-05-07 03:52:01 PM

Gig103: Why does Congress wait until an aircraft is finally built before cancelling them? They did the same thing with the Comanche. It finally met requirements and was built, and THEN they scrapped it.


It wasn't cancelled until we had a SECDEF who A) didn't come from the defense industry and B) didn't want to get into the defense industry and thus was willing to call a turd a turd.
 
2012-05-07 03:53:01 PM
I don't know how I missed it, but I was shocked to learn the the F-22 was a single role interceptor. Who are we planning to intercept? And how can we have anything be single role anymore? Even the C-130 can drop bombs now.
 
2012-05-07 03:53:33 PM

illegal.tender: The F-22 is a waste of money.


Politics. You've heard of it, yes?
 
2012-05-07 03:53:46 PM
Well, I can see my tax dollars are being well spent.
 
2012-05-07 03:53:53 PM
US, 6% of the world's population, 50% of its arms.

//Now going for more
//Backwards, socially penurious, ultimately unproductive
//Propaganda: helping the rich get richer since its inception
 
2012-05-07 03:54:05 PM

illegal.tender: I am sure that the F-22 is serving vital national interests in keeping American skies safe from the hordes of... scary terrorists and socialists that are... will... any day now rain fiery death down on the American people...


Those Iranian flying carpets (with built in Genie ECM) are quick suckers.
 
2012-05-07 03:55:21 PM

Antimatter: I still don't understand why we pay them to R&D somethign, then pay them to fix their problems, then pay more for the finished product.

You'd think we've do a half-now half when we get a goof, final product, and make the building pay for any fixes. The current system does nothing but encourage delays, overruns, etc.


Because the government has the same mentallity of a MMO player?
 
2012-05-07 03:55:53 PM
The F-22 came in way over price and over budget. That said, the lessons learned will hopefully be applied in getting the F-35 up to speed with minimal problems.
 
2012-05-07 03:57:41 PM

sammyk: I really do not understand why we aren't developing our next generation fighters as unmanned.


We're doing that too. For the Reaper, "Tests are underway to allow for the addition of the AIM-92 Stinger air-to-air missile."
Physics, however, gets in the way a little. Either full robotic, or die due to the satellite lag.
 
2012-05-07 03:57:41 PM
Perhaps the Air Force would like to give the contract back to Northrup now to go and fix the problems that Lockheed created before anyone gets hurt. The oxygen deprivation issue was not in the prototype....
 
2012-05-07 03:59:16 PM

JackieRabbit: If only there were some inexpensive device... Something that could be called an in-line oximeter and that could alert a pilot if the oxygen level drops below a safe limit. You know, technology that has been being used in hospitals for nearly 40 years. I'll bet that one could be easily adapted to trigger a supplemental oxygen system for a mere $144,795,248.69 per unit.


The pilots now have to wear a pulse oximeter, but it doesn't trigger anything to provide oxygen. It just tells they'd better get back to base.
 
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