FARK.com: (7091413) Just for fun, let's take a peek at some high-level emails that were flying back and forth around the Lehman Bros. offices just before the crash of '08

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		Just for fun, let's take a peek at some high-level emails that were flying back and forth around the Lehman Bros. offices just before the crash of '08 (huffingtonpost.com)		267
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Cubicle Jockey		2012-05-07 05:38:45 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Weaver95: And these people aren't in a jail cell...why?

Because they didn't commit any crimes. No matter how angry you are, or how many times you pound your tiny fists of rage into the table screaming for the heads of bankers, you can't prosecute anyone who hasn't committed a crime. And making poor business decisions (orawriting emails in the style of a 12-year old) isn't a crime.

You would have voted to acquit at Nuremburg.

Spanky3woods		2012-05-07 05:38:45 PM

luyseyal: This one is full of gems... mostly about nuking California from orbit.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 148x218]

Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room

THIS! That movie is awesome and I watch it every now and then because it is well made.

Also checkout Startup.com

Both of those movies do a really good job of showcasing hubris at it's highest level. Enron, they were just farking evil. They completely cooked their books and couldn't even produce a basic balance sheet (Business School 1301 students can) and all their lawyers and all the auditors and all the investment bankers buying into their scheme to defraud wouldn't call them out. But they got rich doing so.

The movie Statup.com follows a small Dot Com that raised and pissed their way through something like $165M in a year and a half with absolutely nothing to show for their efforts other than a string of broken relationships. The founders thought they were great business men yet they knew nothing about running a company other than raising and blowing through money. Dumbasses built a web application but didn't have any idea about requirements or testing and of course the site didn't do what it needed to do to earn money. The investors put money into a company with no business plan on how to build and sell a product. Typical Dot Com nonsense.

The little start up company I've been with the last 13 years raised a total of $45M in all that time and we've been paying dividends to our investors religiously. We've been profitable for 6 years in a down economy. We have a proven business model and accelerating revenues. Everyone makes a decent salary with modest bonuses each year, yet no one's gotten rich (at least until our stock is worth something).

Hey, maybe that's why our little company hasn't imploded yet. You can't spend more than you can earn. Ooh, that's something they must not teach at business school anymore.

/sarcasm off

Weaver95		2012-05-07 05:40:19 PM

downstairs: Weaver95: downstairs: Still not getting it. If I drive just under the speed limit, make complete stops, and always use a signal... what can you get me on? Serious question.

suspicion of drunk driving, resisting arrest, failure to obey posted traffic signs.

not joking.

Reasons for stopping, not reasons for arrest.

I guess I'm lucky to live in a city where every cop either:

1. Doesn't care to do their job, and spends half the shift sleeping in their car.

2. Cares more about murder and stuff.

Rarely does anyone get pulled over for DUI here.

did you know you can be arrested for resisting arrest? think about that for a moment. that's the sort of country we've become.

someonelse		2012-05-07 05:42:31 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: So those 'lucky people' are stealing.

To quote you, "you can't prosecute anyone who hasn't committed a crime." Tiny fists, pound away.

timujin		2012-05-07 05:42:55 PM

Jacobin: timujin: Serious Black: FlashHarry: has anybody gone to jail yet?

personally, i think the justice dept should go after some of these CEOs and CFOs for multiple-count grand theft and seek triple-digit sentences.

Unfortunately, as Aasif Mandvi pointed out on TDS last week, you can't get convicted of a crime for something that isn't illegal.

Isn't fraud illegal?

Not for the past few years. SCOTUS ruled that it was unconstitutional to convict Jeff Skilling of "depriving shareholders of honest efforts" or something similar (Enron crook)

well that's depressing

shower_in_my_socks		2012-05-07 05:45:00 PM

Their lobbyists got the regulations lifted just so they WOULDN'T go to jail for pulling this shiat. That was the plan and it worked.

And they pay a much lower tax rate than most of the people in this thread.

And there's a major political party in the US that wants to make things even better for them. Angry yet?

Fissile		2012-05-07 05:45:09 PM

swaxhog: [upload.wikimedia.org image 220x326]

Rent it. Watch it. ~~Weep~~ Get worked up into a murderous rage.

============

Fixed it for you.

Avery614		2012-05-07 05:46:18 PM

Bio-nic: Considering most of these CEOs/companies have the ability to hire out their own heavily trained and armed security forces, or just outright buy the police into their private army - how would you go about this?
:p

www.qsmsilencers.com

With a suppressor and a spotter, from a rooftop, over 1/2 mile from the target, would be one way....

If you keep your mouth shut about why (ie. no letters to the press regarding your GRAND PLAN) you could probably kill 5 or 6 of the bastards before they figure out what's going on....

downstairs		2012-05-07 05:47:10 PM

Weaver95: did you know you can be arrested for resisting arrest? think about that for a moment. that's the sort of country we've become.

So you're cool with people resisting a legitimate arrest? Yeah, if a cop tries to put me in cuffs... I'm going to shut up, so what he says, and let my lawyer take it from there.

A General Disdain For All Of Humanity		2012-05-07 05:47:28 PM

As long as there's something to distract the commoners, i.e. American Idol, DTWS, pro sports, the latest celebrity "scandal", nothing is going to change.

/Bread and circuses for the masses
//working for the man

sprawl15		2012-05-07 05:50:03 PM

downstairs: Weaver95: did you know you can be arrested for resisting arrest? think about that for a moment. that's the sort of country we've become.

So you're cool with people resisting a legitimate arrest? Yeah, if a cop tries to put me in cuffs... I'm going to shut up, so what he says, and let my lawyer take it from there.

He's not talking about it as an additional charge (like DUI and resisting arrest), he's talking about it as the only charge. In that you're arrested for resisting the arrest to arrest you for resisting the arrest to arrest you for...

thomps		2012-05-07 05:53:33 PM

Dr Dreidel: thomps: Debeo Summa Credo: Then why did the FASB change sale accounting rules to eliminate the excess collateral loophole that Lehman used? Why did their auditors sign off on it? It's high hurdle to reach criminality when your financials technically comply with GAAP.

well we'll see, the SEC started investigating the repo 105 treatment after its use at lehman was exposed, and E&Y is currently facing fraud charges from the NYAG over its assistance in lehman's use of it.

Debeo Summa Credo: Fuld may have expected a similar Bear Stearns like bailout for Lehman, but are you telling me that they were actually going LONG RMBS in 2008 or 2008? The Bear Stearns bailout went pretty shiattily for senior management, their stock price dropped by 90% or something and they lost their jobs. Even if he did expect a governmental bailout that would protect his creditors, Fuld wouldn't have taken on additional risk that would increase the likelyhood of that bailout that would have been professionally and economically catastrophic for him anyway.

i'm almost positive that they did continue to go long MBS post-bear. fuld was super optimistic about a recovery. he wasn't banking on a bailout as a preferred exit but saw it as a great safety net as he worked on other capitalization avenues.

Part of me is also thinking that CEOs were looking at the carcasses and carcasses-to-be of Big Financials all over Wall St and (believing in their hubristic way that surely they'd come out OK), started salivating at all those workers and corporate pieces they could buy for 80 cents on the dollar and 25 cents on the dollar respectively.

Like, if Fuld believed Lehman could weather the storm, they could buy large sections of whoever failed, and hire some of their workforce, for far cheaper than they would have pre-September 2008.

which is also pretty hilarious considering the massive bargain that barclays got for lehman's corpse. basically gave them a ready-built american presence for pennies on the dollar.

Smelly Pirate Hooker		2012-05-07 05:54:06 PM

Why do you all hate America and the free market?

Remember, these guys are doing God's work.

Darth Vader Ginsburg		2012-05-07 05:57:09 PM

Aarontology: Someday I'm going to become a banker so I don't have to be held responsible for my bad decisions.

Or a Meteorologist like me ;)

Weaver95		2012-05-07 05:58:10 PM

downstairs: Weaver95: did you know you can be arrested for resisting arrest? think about that for a moment. that's the sort of country we've become.

So you're cool with people resisting a legitimate arrest? Yeah, if a cop tries to put me in cuffs... I'm going to shut up, so what he says, and let my lawyer take it from there.

no, i'm saying that you can be arrested for resisting arrest. you commited no crime, but you can be arrested for resisting arrest for...not commiting any crime.

MrHelpful		2012-05-07 05:58:13 PM

And it all was started by people who didn't pay for their mortgages.

bionicjoe		2012-05-07 06:00:54 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: The bank probably knows who owns it because the mortgage payments were being sent to pools to pay off certain RMBS bonds that were held by investors (401ks, insurers, pensions), but they don't have the legal documentation to prove it in court, so the RMBS bond suffers.

So those 'lucky people' are stealing.

Many of these banks used predatory lending to give a loan they knew was never going to be paid back.
Who cares who signed it? The farking courts care. That's why when I got my house I signed my documents with a lawyer representing the mortgage company. That's how it's done. The banks were paying people to sign thousands of documents per day because there was no humanly way to review and process the loans fast enough to shore up their bullshiat holdings.

Then when the shiat hit the fan the banks started harassing the hell out of people that had lost their jobs and savings. They were giving absolutely throwing the book at these people not because they were wrong, but because the bank was up shiat creek. A few lucky people who put up a fight and didn't take more of the banks' shiat found out how unscrupulous and criminal the banks had been.

Just because your behind in house payments doesn't make you a criminal. Fighting a bank in the courts is part of the legal process, and the banks screwed themselves by not having their paperwork in order.
The bank signed away hundreds of thousands of dollars without putting their name on basic mortgage documents. Who is stealing and who is a corporation of dumbasses?

Shirley Ujest		2012-05-07 06:01:05 PM

Aarontology: Someday I'm going to become a banker so I don't have to be held responsible for my bad decisions.

It's better than being a teacher. Because you can fark everyone and get away with it!

downstairs		2012-05-07 06:01:40 PM

Weaver95: no, i'm saying that you can be arrested for resisting arrest. you commited no crime, but you can be arrested for resisting arrest for...not commiting any crime.

Never heard of anyone arrested for ONLY resisting arrest. Yes, I know cops have trumped up charges, placed drugs on people, all that fun stuff. But can you tell me a story of where this actually happened. Someone being arrested for nothing?

What if they didn't resist? What would the cop put down on their report?

CygnusDarius		2012-05-07 06:02:00 PM

Can't we just kill them already? Work like their maids, their cleaners, their drivers, their bodyguards, wait for the right moment and a kick neck-snapping.

justinsomnia.org

CygnusDarius		2012-05-07 06:02:48 PM

CygnusDarius: Can't we just kill them already? Work like their maids, their cleaners, their drivers, their bodyguards, wait for the right moment and a ~~kick~~ quick neck-snapping.

[justinsomnia.org image 380x159]

Sticky Hands		2012-05-07 06:08:08 PM

CygnusDarius: Can't we just kill them already? Work like their maids, their cleaners, their drivers, their bodyguards, wait for the right moment and a kick neck-snapping.

[justinsomnia.org image 380x159]

You could. Most of the rest of us don't speak Spanish well enough to get in close like that.

Philip Francis Queeg		2012-05-07 06:09:57 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: The shareholders and senior execs (who held a ton of stock) got crushed in BS, LEH, and AIG.

That's true for the senior execs if "Crushed" now means "walked away with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars".

Bear Sterns CEO James Cayne: Sold stake for $61 million

Lehman Brother CEO Dick Fuld: Paid approximately $500 million in the 7 years prior to the bankruptcy ( that's the estimate that doesn't include his unsold shares at the time of the collapse.)

AIG CEO Martin J. Sullivan: $25 million in severance pay

We could only hope to be so lucky as to be crushed like that.

Weaver95		2012-05-07 06:11:56 PM

downstairs: Weaver95: no, i'm saying that you can be arrested for resisting arrest. you commited no crime, but you can be arrested for resisting arrest for...not commiting any crime.

Never heard of anyone arrested for ONLY resisting arrest. Yes, I know cops have trumped up charges, placed drugs on people, all that fun stuff. But can you tell me a story of where this actually happened. Someone being arrested for nothing?

What if they didn't resist? What would the cop put down on their report?

it happens to a lot of OWS protesters. they get arrested for resisting arrest and nothing else.

sprawl15		2012-05-07 06:14:30 PM

downstairs: Never heard of anyone arrested for ONLY resisting arrest.

Keep in mind that 'resisting arrest' includes refusal to comply with detainment or attempt to escape police control. If a policeman thinks you're drunk in public and you refuse to talk to him or wait when he tells you to, that's resisting arrest even if you're not drunk or committing any other crime.

FnkyTwn		2012-05-07 06:14:32 PM

Weaver95: so basically our only recourse is...murder?

This! It's crazy, but this is the role i see the Tea Party handling for society, unfortunately they're probably only interested in blowing up abortion clinics, gay weddings or mosques. If our laws can't touch these guys.. then you get vigilante justice.

downstairs		2012-05-07 06:14:43 PM

Weaver95: downstairs: Weaver95: no, i'm saying that you can be arrested for resisting arrest. you commited no crime, but you can be arrested for resisting arrest for...not commiting any crime.

Never heard of anyone arrested for ONLY resisting arrest. Yes, I know cops have trumped up charges, placed drugs on people, all that fun stuff. But can you tell me a story of where this actually happened. Someone being arrested for nothing?

What if they didn't resist? What would the cop put down on their report?

it happens to a lot of OWS protesters. they get arrested for resisting arrest and nothing else.

No, they get arrested for disturbing the public.

Again, we can debate if someone should be arrested, or if cops are lying, all that.

But I've never heard of someone being arrested just for resisting arrest. Because, again, what if they DIDN'T resist... what would the cop put down on the report?

SirEattonHogg		2012-05-07 06:14:55 PM

Sticky Hands Smartest
Funniest
2012-05-07 06:08:08 PM

CygnusDarius: Can't we just kill them already? Work like their maids, their cleaners, their drivers, their bodyguards, wait for the right moment and a kick neck-snapping.

[justinsomnia.org image 380x159]

You could. Most of the rest of us don't speak Spanish well enough to get in close like that.

So you're nominating Cygnus Darius to get in there with piano wire?

I did corporate law for a few years. Working with i-bankers and all that. Nice wonderful warm people.

Weaver95		2012-05-07 06:16:39 PM

downstairs: No, they get arrested for disturbing the public.

and they also get arrested for resisting arrest.

But I've never heard of someone being arrested just for resisting arrest. Because, again, what if they DIDN'T resist... what would the cop put down on the report?

they put down 'resisting arrest' and the process moves merrily along it's way.

downstairs		2012-05-07 06:19:03 PM

Weaver95: downstairs: No, they get arrested for disturbing the public.

and they also get arrested for resisting arrest.

But I've never heard of someone being arrested just for resisting arrest. Because, again, what if they DIDN'T resist... what would the cop put down on the report?

they put down 'resisting arrest' and the process moves merrily along it's way.

[Citation Needed]

Seriously. Sounds like BS, at least back it up with an example.

Nick Nostril		2012-05-07 06:21:41 PM

And just think, all the money that was "lost" in 2008 went somewhere. Couldn't have ended up with these jokers, they're all a bunch of dumbasses, aren't they?

Communist_Manifesto		2012-05-07 06:23:42 PM

Weaver95: downstairs: No, they get arrested for disturbing the public.

and they also get arrested for resisting arrest.

But I've never heard of someone being arrested just for resisting arrest. Because, again, what if they DIDN'T resist... what would the cop put down on the report?

they put down 'resisting arrest' and the process moves merrily along it's way.

Pretty Much This. They arrest you for resisting, or "disorderly conduct", or "interfering with a police officer". They have a lot of judgment call laws that the police can use to arrest or detain you for pretty much anything.

ThreeEdgedSword		2012-05-07 06:23:44 PM

If the public is the disturbance, what is the public disturbing?

Maul555		2012-05-07 06:23:52 PM

downstairs: Weaver95: no, i'm saying that you can be arrested for resisting arrest. you commited no crime, but you can be arrested for resisting arrest for...not commiting any crime.

Never heard of anyone arrested for ONLY resisting arrest. Yes, I know cops have trumped up charges, placed drugs on people, all that fun stuff. But can you tell me a story of where this actually happened. Someone being arrested for nothing?

What if they didn't resist? What would the cop put down on their report?

Holy farking shiat! I think this guy was really and actually born yesterday. holy farking shiat!

cryinoutloud		2012-05-07 06:25:48 PM

Avery614: With a suppressor and a spotter, from a rooftop, over 1/2 mile from the target, would be one way....
If you keep your mouth shut about why (ie. no letters to the press regarding your GRAND PLAN) you could probably kill 5 or 6 of the bastards before they figure out what's going on....

They are greatly outnumbered. How come the crazy militia guys can't focus on people like this, instead of the gubmint and people in black helicopters?

I know, it's probably too complex for them. And not nearly as interesting as most of the conspiracy theories.

ThreeEdgedSword		2012-05-07 06:26:23 PM

Nick Nostril: And just think, all the money that was "lost" in 2008 went somewhere. Couldn't have ended up with these jokers, they're all a bunch of dumbasses, aren't they?

If everyone and every country is broke or near broke, then it's all a sham. But, then the question is: why?

Wangiss		2012-05-07 06:26:47 PM

Weaver95: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: It wasn't illegal at the time, so no jail time. But, we CAN tax and regulate the living f**k out of the greedy bastards, like preventing the bastards from shorting a product that they created and requiring C-level executives remain liable for the company for ten years after service.

I can't drive down the f*cking street to work without breaking at least 2 or 3 laws and you're saying these idiots can drive a major company into the ground costing investors to lose BILLIONS in value and...nothing happens?

trust me. there's always something they can be charged with. someone wants to get 'em badly enough...they can be brought up on charges of something or other.

You're such a totalitarian asshole.

Barricaded Gunman		2012-05-07 06:27:52 PM

Avery614: With a suppressor and a spotter, from a rooftop, over 1/2 mile from the target, would be one way.... If you keep your mouth shut about why (ie. no letters to the press regarding your GRAND PLAN) you could probably kill 5 or 6 of the bastards before they figure out what's going on....

The only part of your plan that I have a problem with is the notion that you could "kill 5 or 6 of the bastards before they figure out what's going on.... " I think after the second Wall Street f#cker got a pink mist haircut from 500 yards away they'd put it together. Although I hasten to add that despite this minor quibble I am in no way objecting to this proposed course of action.

Maul555		2012-05-07 06:28:20 PM

http://philly.barstoolsports.com/around-barstool/bike-cop-shoves-guy- t hen-arrests-him-for-resisting-arrest/

There is one. Just google resisting arrest arrests, this shiat is too numerous for someone to be seriously asking if this is possible and how it happens.

Communist_Manifesto		2012-05-07 06:29:16 PM

downstairs: Weaver95: downstairs: No, they get arrested for disturbing the public.

and they also get arrested for resisting arrest.

But I've never heard of someone being arrested just for resisting arrest. Because, again, what if they DIDN'T resist... what would the cop put down on the report?

they put down 'resisting arrest' and the process moves merrily along it's way.

[Citation Needed]

Seriously. Sounds like BS, at least back it up with an example.

Here is an example
Link

GroverCleveland		2012-05-07 06:29:23 PM

yeah but put soda in your water cup at mc donalds and your ass is going up the river

Dr Dreidel		2012-05-07 06:30:55 PM

thomps: Dr Dreidel: thomps: i'm almost positive that they did continue to go long MBS post-bear. fuld was super optimistic about a recovery. he wasn't banking on a bailout as a preferred exit but saw it as a great safety net as he worked on other capitalization avenues.

Part of me is also thinking that CEOs were looking at the carcasses and carcasses-to-be of Big Financials all over Wall St and (believing in their hubristic way that surely they'd come out OK), started salivating at all those workers and corporate pieces they could buy for 80 cents on the dollar and 25 cents on the dollar respectively.

Like, if Fuld believed Lehman could weather the storm, they could buy large sections of whoever failed, and hire some of their workforce, for far cheaper than they would have pre-September 2008.

which is also pretty hilarious considering the massive bargain that barclays got for lehman's corpse. basically gave them a ready-built american presence for pennies on the dollar.

I'm not surprised. These guys all thought THEY were the geniuses who would make it out alive to feast on the remains, when it's plain fact that there were going to be winners and losers.

They're just as subject to hubris, groupthink, bad decision making (based on bad intel, decisions made out of self-interest rather than corporate interest, a misreading of their own or market circumstances), and yes, a screwing by process (the circumstances exposed a systemic flaw that not even they recognized) as the rest of us.

Eight figures a year doesn't make your brain special.

Communist_Manifesto		2012-05-07 06:31:37 PM

link got thrown out. here is url

http://www.pixiq.com/article/i-was-arrested-covering-the-occupy-miami - evacuation

impaler		2012-05-07 06:35:08 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Because they didn't commit any crimes. No matter how angry you are, or how many times you pound your tiny fists of rage into the table screaming for the heads of bankers, you can't prosecute anyone who hasn't committed a crime. And making poor business decisions (orawriting emails in the style of a 12-year old) isn't a crime.

I agree.

It's also more proof that rich does not equal smart, and that we shouldn't call even the financial heads of large investment banks "financial gurus."

Avery614		2012-05-07 06:35:27 PM

Debeo Summa Credo		2012-05-07 06:38:03 PM

Cubicle Jockey: Debeo Summa Credo: Weaver95: And these people aren't in a jail cell...why?

Because they didn't commit any crimes. No matter how angry you are, or how many times you pound your tiny fists of rage into the table screaming for the heads of bankers, you can't prosecute anyone who hasn't committed a crime. And making poor business decisions (orawriting emails in the style of a 12-year old) isn't a crime.

You would have voted to acquit at Nuremburg.

No, because the Nazis were criminals. See the difference, mr Godwin?

Benjimin_Dover		2012-05-07 06:38:06 PM

MrDebacle: Their e-mail writing skills appear on par with a typical pre-teen.

Being in IT, I have been privy to see the emails of everybody from the top on down. It seems that the ones at the top are the worst at it.

The last manager I had who reported directly to a SVP never heard of a salutation or a period and did not know what the SHIFT key was for.

Ordinary Genius		2012-05-07 06:40:37 PM

Weaver95: Ordinary Genius: Which is sad, since the entire idea of our country is founded on liberty, and the rights of the individual.

yeah, but then we let people try and govern according to 'biblical principal' and concepts like 'innocent till proven guilty' got thrown out the door.

plus there was the whole 'war on drugs' thing. that really thwacked our civil rights in the nuts.

I agree.

Weaver95		2012-05-07 06:42:26 PM

Avery614: downstairs: Weaver95: downstairs: No, they get arrested for disturbing the public.

and they also get arrested for resisting arrest.

But I've never heard of someone being arrested just for resisting arrest. Because, again, what if they DIDN'T resist... what would the cop put down on the report?

they put down 'resisting arrest' and the process moves merrily along it's way.

[Citation Needed]

Seriously. Sounds like BS, at least back it up with an example.

Link

Link

Link

and sometimes it can get you killed.... especially if you have mental issues

Link

thanks dude! I was out grabbing dinner and just got back.

Sticky Hands		2012-05-07 06:42:37 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Cubicle Jockey: Debeo Summa Credo: Weaver95: And these people aren't in a jail cell...why?

Because they didn't commit any crimes. No matter how angry you are, or how many times you pound your tiny fists of rage into the table screaming for the heads of bankers, you can't prosecute anyone who hasn't committed a crime. And making poor business decisions (orawriting emails in the style of a 12-year old) isn't a crime.

You would have voted to acquit at Nuremburg.

No, because the Nazis were criminals. See the difference, mr Godwin?

Only because they lost.

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