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(Some Guy)   Wind may help power vessels on our oceans. This is not a repeat from the 19th century   (earthyreport.com) divider line 40
    More: Interesting, oceans, watercrafts  
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2015 clicks; posted to Geek » on 07 May 2012 at 1:31 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-07 11:28:32 AM
I declare this to be an Aubrey-Maturin thread.
 
2012-05-07 11:44:49 AM
Considering the return of pirates, this only seems appropriate.
 
2012-05-07 12:42:16 PM
images.wikia.com
Approves.
 
2012-05-07 01:38:05 PM
I think I have a Scientific American from about 30 years ago (when it wasn't People.wow.sci) that includes much the same information.
 
2012-05-07 01:48:03 PM

barefoot in the head: I think I have a Scientific American from about 30 years ago (when it wasn't People.wow.sci) that includes much the same information.


I remember that too and I think it used the same illustration

www.earthyreport.com
 
2012-05-07 01:49:41 PM
One would think the sails would get in the way of deck equipment and containers.
 
2012-05-07 01:56:35 PM

JohnAnnArbor: One would think the sails would get in the way of deck equipment and containers.


Well, that and they can only go in the direction the wind is blowing....

I kid! I kid!

But they would pretty much have to have a way of stowing / furling / reducing them, or they'd have bridge-clearance and crane-height issues, wouldn't they?

Added bonus: Huge sails on freighters might make them easier to see while at sea, too...
 
2012-05-07 02:00:24 PM
wind powered wessels?

www.probertencyclopaedia.com

impressed
 
2012-05-07 02:03:04 PM
I think sails have been around since before the 19th century, subby.
 
2012-05-07 02:11:41 PM

shpritz: I think sails have been around since before the 19th century, subby.


maybe he meant BC. of course that would still be too recent
 
2012-05-07 02:14:55 PM
Unless they engineer a way to collapse those "sails" they are going to be in for a nasty surprise when some bad weather comes up.
 
2012-05-07 02:22:28 PM
And here I was expecting something new, like some form of wind turbines that would create electrical energy to power ship systems and/or power for a hybrid electric/diesel engine for the props.
 
2012-05-07 02:28:44 PM

shpritz: I think sails have been around since before the 19th century, subby.


C'mon, everyone knows that Columbus paddled.
 
2012-05-07 03:00:25 PM

Count Dyscalculia: Unless they engineer a way to collapse those "sails" they are going to be in for a nasty surprise when some bad weather comes up.


If I recall correctly (and it was a long time ago) they can be rotated edge-on to the the wind. I did not rtfa.
 
2012-05-07 03:01:20 PM
WHen I first looked at the illustration, I though it contained several vertical wind turbines.
 
2012-05-07 03:11:26 PM
In theory this actually seems like a really smart idea, providing there aren't any serious technical issues with putting something like this into practise. Wind is free after all and just because we've developed turbines doesn't mean that wind can't still be a viable method for moving sailing vessels.

As for collapsing the sails for docking or heavy weather, I seem to remember reading about a super yacht that can do this. I think it was one of those huge yachts that are a few hundred feet long and I remember that the sails were huge and completely computer controlled. And when they needed to collapse the sails, they kind of just folded up and went into the masts. So yeah, they should be able to make that aspect work.
 
2012-05-07 03:12:54 PM

Howard Dean: WHen I first looked at the illustration, I though it contained several vertical wind turbines.


Different article with
Video
of model sails.
/old news
 
2012-05-07 03:15:23 PM
They should just tow a solar barge behind them. Leave it (guarded) in open water when you come in to dock. Connect back up with it before you go back out to sea. You could make a pretty big array.

Might make your ship a fair bit more efficient. Given how much fuel those things burn, even a 10% increase in fuel efficiency would probably pay for the whole thing in no time.
 
2012-05-07 03:29:58 PM

The sound of one hand clapping: In theory this actually seems like a really smart idea, providing there aren't any serious technical issues with putting something like this into practise. Wind is free after all and just because we've developed turbines doesn't mean that wind can't still be a viable method for moving sailing vessels.

As for collapsing the sails for docking or heavy weather, I seem to remember reading about a super yacht that can do this. I think it was one of those huge yachts that are a few hundred feet long and I remember that the sails were huge and completely computer controlled. And when they needed to collapse the sails, they kind of just folded up and went into the masts. So yeah, they should be able to make that aspect work.


I think you may be confusing two different systems. What you described sounds like a roller furling system with fabric sails, they're common on medium to large sail boats.
The system in the artcle is kinda old news - working prototypes have been tested since Jacque Cousteau was around.
 
2012-05-07 03:32:31 PM

Honest Bender: They should just tow a solar barge behind them. Leave it (guarded) in open water when you come in to dock. Connect back up with it before you go back out to sea. You could make a pretty big array.

Might make your ship a fair bit more efficient. Given how much fuel those things burn, even a 10% increase in fuel efficiency would probably pay for the whole thing in no time.


You don't know a damn thing about ships do you? ;)
 
2012-05-07 03:47:47 PM

Boatmech: You don't know a damn thing about ships do you? ;)


I certainly don't, but I was happy to see that it referenced the kite-powered freighter.
 
2012-05-07 03:55:40 PM

Boatmech: The sound of one hand clapping: In theory this actually seems like a really smart idea, providing there aren't any serious technical issues with putting something like this into practise. Wind is free after all and just because we've developed turbines doesn't mean that wind can't still be a viable method for moving sailing vessels.

As for collapsing the sails for docking or heavy weather, I seem to remember reading about a super yacht that can do this. I think it was one of those huge yachts that are a few hundred feet long and I remember that the sails were huge and completely computer controlled. And when they needed to collapse the sails, they kind of just folded up and went into the masts. So yeah, they should be able to make that aspect work.

I think you may be confusing two different systems. What you described sounds like a roller furling system with fabric sails, they're common on medium to large sail boats.
The system in the artcle is kinda old news - working prototypes have been tested since Jacque Cousteau was around.


Actually, that sounds probably like what it was. Sounds a bit familiar. Thanks for the correction.

Just out of interest, could they use the roller furling system on a cargo ship? Or do those only work with lighter boats?
 
2012-05-07 03:58:26 PM

bandy: Boatmech: You don't know a damn thing about ships do you? ;)

I certainly don't, but I was happy to see that it referenced the kite-powered freighter.


Yeah, it's an interesting system, the first kite was 1,700 sq.ft. They were going to try a 2,400 sq.ft next.
*think the US Navy still has that ship under charter - I know they had it in 2009/2010.
 
2012-05-07 04:08:24 PM

Muta: barefoot in the head: I think I have a Scientific American from about 30 years ago (when it wasn't People.wow.sci) that includes much the same information.

I remember that too and I think it used the same illustration


The last version of this idea I heard involved using a giant kite to help pull the ship.
 
2012-05-07 04:12:07 PM

The sound of one hand clapping: Boatmech: The sound of one hand clapping: In theory this actually seems like a really smart idea, providing there aren't any serious technical issues with putting something like this into practise. Wind is free after all and just because we've developed turbines doesn't mean that wind can't still be a viable method for moving sailing vessels.

As for collapsing the sails for docking or heavy weather, I seem to remember reading about a super yacht that can do this. I think it was one of those huge yachts that are a few hundred feet long and I remember that the sails were huge and completely computer controlled. And when they needed to collapse the sails, they kind of just folded up and went into the masts. So yeah, they should be able to make that aspect work.

I think you may be confusing two different systems. What you described sounds like a roller furling system with fabric sails, they're common on medium to large sail boats.
The system in the artcle is kinda old news - working prototypes have been tested since Jacque Cousteau was around.

Actually, that sounds probably like what it was. Sounds a bit familiar. Thanks for the correction.

Just out of interest, could they use the roller furling system on a cargo ship? Or do those only work with lighter boats?


Apples and oranges when it comes to modern sail vs power (cargo) boats.
It's not the weight of the ship thats the problem, it's the lack of a mast and all that wonderful rigging. They would have to completely rebuild the cargo ship to step the mast. And as someone else mentioned the loading cranes need clearance to operate. .
 
2012-05-07 04:24:02 PM

cgraves67: Muta: barefoot in the head: I think I have a Scientific American from about 30 years ago (when it wasn't People.wow.sci) that includes much the same information.

I remember that too and I think it used the same illustration

The last version of this idea I heard involved using a giant kite to help pull the ship.


t3.gstatic.com

Better system and a lot cleaner layout.
Rotor Sails
 
2012-05-07 04:49:41 PM
My grand and probably impractical idea is to frame together two decommissioned 1000' oil tankers, give them about 10,000'^2 of surface area between them and cover that with photovoltaic panels with wind generators along the edge.

They could electrolyze hydrogen all night and day, and have a means to store it.

Don't have enough storage in the tankers? You have a ginormous volume under the platform. A low pressure bag could store hydrogen.
 
2012-05-07 04:51:22 PM

shpritz: I think sails have been around since before the 19th century, subby.


3200 BCE
 
2012-05-07 05:47:11 PM

maxheck: My grand and probably impractical idea is to frame together two decommissioned 1000' oil tankers, give them about 10,000'^2 of surface area between them and cover that with photovoltaic panels with wind generators along the edge.

They could electrolyze hydrogen all night and day, and have a means to store it.

Don't have enough storage in the tankers? You have a ginormous volume under the platform. A low pressure bag could store hydrogen.


...10,000'^2 of surface area between them and cover that with
photovoltaic panels ....

`
A problem I'm running into IRL is scratches on the surface of the panels. Also bird shiat + sea salt turns the surface under it hazy if it is left to dry on the panels.
* read an artcle about using starch, water and I think alge to produce hydrogen that sounded promising as hell - haven't seen any follow up on it though.
 
2012-05-07 06:05:34 PM

shpritz: I think sails have been around since before the 19th century, subby.


I was going to say.

More like, "This is not a repeat from the Bronze Age."
 
2012-05-07 06:21:34 PM

henryhill: shpritz: I think sails have been around since before the 19th century, subby.

3200 BCE


`
Nope :

c. 6000 BC: Rudimentary ships (rowed,
single-sailed) depicted in Egyptian rock art
`
Sailing began in prehistory, we don't have a date for the earliest use.
(More and more evidence is cropping up for the original Native Americans/South Americans having sailed here at or before 13,000 bc.
 
2012-05-07 08:02:27 PM

Boatmech: You don't know a damn thing about ships do you? ;)


Them's those things what go on the water, right?
 
2012-05-07 08:22:02 PM

Honest Bender: Boatmech: You don't know a damn thing about ships do you? ;)

Them's those things what go on the water, right?



t2.gstatic.com
Yep!
 
2012-05-07 11:54:34 PM

msupf: And here I was expecting something new, like some form of wind turbines that would create electrical energy to power ship systems and/or power for a hybrid electric/diesel engine for the props.


Actually... A hybrid wind turbine / diesel generator / battery rig might be great for generating ships electrical power. The current hotness is to setup ships so they can plug into port power instead of running onboard generators while idle.

The idea of replacing fabric sails with rigid aerofoils isn't new, and would be completely incompatible with container ship designs. At least anything like what they do right now.

www.cowesheritage.co.uk

If you could build a ship that didn't require crew... I could see drone ships traveling the trade winds at a leisurely pace.
 
2012-05-08 12:52:08 AM

Warthog: I declare this to be an Aubrey-Maturin thread.


That would be the lesser of two weevils.
Unless the thread is cur-tailed.
 
2012-05-08 12:59:13 AM

Boatmech: Sailing began in prehistory, we don't have a date for the earliest use.


I'm sure we've all seen a leaf, with half of its surface bent upwards, sailing across a pond. You can bet that this was recognized VERY early in our history as a way, if scaled up, for a man to get away from his wife.
 
2012-05-08 01:46:46 AM
SkySail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyLjISR6XQQ
 
2012-05-08 01:59:14 AM
Boatmech:

A problem I'm running into IRL is scratches on the surface of the panels. Also bird shiat + sea salt turns the surface under it hazy if it is left to dry on the panels.
* read an artcle about using starch, water and I think alge to produce hydrogen that sounded promising as hell - haven't seen any follow up on it though.


One of the advantages of doing stuff on that scale (nearly a hectare of solar panels + wind turbines) is that you don't have to have the most efficient system ever. You could use the cheapest scratched-up hazy panels from China with low efficiencies . The real problem is finding customers for all the hydrogen.

And of course there's the time-honored system used by all navies... Find some poor S.O.B. who has nothing better to do with their time for 8 hours a day and send them out with a mop and a bucket. Even without improvements in marine optical coatings there are ways to keep the system clean. So long as they're putting out some minimum level of power it should be fine.
 
2012-05-08 06:47:18 AM

wildcardjack: msupf: And here I was expecting something new, like some form of wind turbines that would create electrical energy to power ship systems and/or power for a hybrid electric/diesel engine for the props.
`


The information is available, if you're interested in marine power generation then quit yer biatchin' and start learning.

`
Actually... A hybrid wind turbine / diesel generator / battery rig might be great for generating ships electrical power. The current hotness is to setup ships so they can plug into port power instead of running onboard generators while idle.
`

Lame electrical joke?
PS it's such a new idea we have been doing since the ships ran on COAL!
(Nothing against wiki warriors but you should have a basic understanding of the subject at hand. It would keep you from making embarassingly uninformed/stupid statements like what you posted above)

`
The idea of replacing fabric sails with rigid aerofoils isn't new, and would be completely incompatible with container ship designs. At least anything like what they do right now.
`
(Nothing against wiki warriors but you should have a basic understanding of the subject at hand. It would keep you from making embarassingly uninformed/stupid statements like what you posted above)

`

[www.cowesheritage.co.uk image 640x459]

If you could build a ship that didn't require crew... I could see drone ships traveling the trade winds at a leisurely pace.

`
(Nothing against wiki warriors but you should have a basic understanding of the subject at hand. It would keep you from making embarassingly uninformed/stupid statements like what you posted above)
`
Dude, you are 0 for 3.
Ever heard of auto-pilot? Self correcting steering? How about Autohelm, surely you are familiar with that.
 
2012-05-08 07:15:04 AM

maxheck: Boatmech:

A problem I'm running into IRL is scratches on the surface of the panels. Also bird shiat + sea salt turns the surface under it hazy if it is left to dry on the panels.
* read an artcle about using starch, water and I think alge to produce hydrogen that sounded promising as hell - haven't seen any follow up on it though.

One of the advantages of doing stuff on that scale (nearly a hectare of solar panels + wind turbines) is that you don't have to have the most efficient system ever. You could use the cheapest scratched-up hazy panels from China with low efficiencies . The real problem is finding customers for all the hydrogen.

And of course there's the time-honored system used by all navies... Find some poor S.O.B. who has nothing better to do with their time for 8 hours a day and send them out with a mop and a bucket. Even without improvements in marine optical coatings there are ways to keep the system clean. So long as they're putting out some minimum level of power it should be fine.


`
Max, you seem like a nice guy but damn, you're just flat out wrong on both the above statements.
`
1) Efficiencies do matter. So does reliability.
`
2)Max, I deal with these system regularly, what you are casually dismissing as a non issue (maintenance and output) is kinda important.
/it's not that your idea won't work, it's more a case of the guy that actually does the work looks over at the "idea" guy as says "WTF dude!, it ain't that simple. "
// got to go 'cold iron' a 30 footer with a blown transfer switch
 
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