If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Marketwatch)   Greek stocks again take it in the ass   (marketwatch.com) divider line 26
    More: Fail  
•       •       •

1238 clicks; posted to Business » on 07 May 2012 at 8:47 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



26 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-05-07 08:50:05 AM  
Landmines at the borders? Wow.
 
2012-05-07 08:56:23 AM  
Landmines? What a bunch of farking Nazis
 
2012-05-07 09:09:24 AM  
The saddest part of all this is that nobody in the US Government is paying the slightest bit of attention to what this means for our own country. European citizens are not going to stand for financial unification. They don't want band-aid fixes on economic systems that clearly are not going to work. They are not willing to tolerate both spreading the wealth and adopting other countries' problems. And they are voting out the people in power who are heading them in that direction.

Failing economies should be allowed to fail. That includes our own. If it is fundamentally flawed, then we need to create something new and transition to it...if there is time. If not, well than things are going to get interesting and difficult for awhile. But in the long run we will be better for it. Globalization doesn't solve problems, it compounds them. If you have a sick person, you don't throw them into a room with a bunch of healthy people thinking that he will catch healthiness. That is stupid. You quarantine the person so that your healthy people don't get sick. It is no different with economies. Economic cooperation is wonderful, and can accomplish a lot of really great and powerful things, but economies should never be so intertwined that one can't be easily and quickly quarantined if it gets sick.

Take note, US politicians and economists...what France just did is a harbinger. The people said no, and said it loudly enough to be heard in Greece. I heard it as well, and I know what it means.
 
2012-05-07 09:19:32 AM  
Whenever I see Greeks being interviewed about the whole bailout and austerity thing I'm always struck by just how dumb and short-sighted people can be. I understand their frustration at the banks and big companies that aren't really being held accountable for their role in all this, but, beyond that, they always seem so shocked and horrified to find that when you go begging to another country for help because you ran your economy into the dirt, the other country may want to attach some strings.

You drove your economy off a cliff and if you don't get money from somewhere you're gonna hit the jagged rocks at the bottom. That's all there is to it. I don't really understand why you think you have a bargaining chip with countries like France and Germany on this. They said they'd help, but only if there are some meaningful reforms that provide some small assurance that the money isn't just being wasted. I'm sorry that hurts, but it's gonna hurt a whole heck of a lot more if you just let nature take its course in all this.

/ my portfolio is going to get crushed by those stupid European voters....
 
2012-05-07 09:26:47 AM  

Balchinian: The people said no, and said it loudly enough to be heard in Greece. I heard it as well, and I know what it means.


The people said: We want free stuff and we want everybody else to pay for it.
 
2012-05-07 09:47:37 AM  

MugzyBrown: Balchinian: The people said no, and said it loudly enough to be heard in Greece. I heard it as well, and I know what it means.

The people said: We want free stuff and we want everybody else to pay for it.


I'm sorry, but the Greeks got boned by the Euro. They used to be a great travel destination for many European people because of favorable exchange rates, which boosted tourism and the bottom dollar. Now? Not so much. And see what happened. Sure, they have poor social management to cap it off, but they seemed to be doing well enough before they joined the Euro. I wish their leader stuck with the voter referendum rather than bending over for Merkel back a few months ago
 
2012-05-07 10:06:39 AM  

MugzyBrown: The people said: We want free stuff and we want everybody else to pay for it.


since there is no way that this is an over-simplification of the issue at hand, i'm going to let your comment guide my views on the subject.
 
2012-05-07 10:24:12 AM  

bhcompy: MugzyBrown: Balchinian: The people said no, and said it loudly enough to be heard in Greece. I heard it as well, and I know what it means.

The people said: We want free stuff and we want everybody else to pay for it.

I'm sorry, but the Greeks got boned by the Euro. They used to be a great travel destination for many European people because of favorable exchange rates, which boosted tourism and the bottom dollar. Now? Not so much.


Tourism in Greece is just fine, and was absolutely booming until recently. Yeah they are on the Euro but everything is way cheaper there compared to most of Europe.
Less people in other corners of Europe having money for a vacation was and still is a much bigger threat to Greek tourism than the Euro ever was. That and the fact that tourists generally don't like having rioters showing up in their vacation photos.

Greece didn't get boned by the Euro. They boned themselves, plain and simple. The EU's mistake was assuming that nobody would ever try to game the system like Greece did. That, and trying to do too much, too fast when they discovered the extent of the issue.

Kick them out of the eurozone. It will be healthier for everyone involved in the long run, including the Euro.
 
2012-05-07 10:33:57 AM  

Splinshints: Whenever I see Greeks being interviewed about the whole bailout and austerity thing I'm always struck by just how dumb and short-sighted people can be.


I also question some of the measures of the austerity programs. The one that comes to mind is the lowering of the minimum wage. Don't they have an income tax in Greece? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage effectively lowering the tax revenues to the state? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage also reduce consumption since people have less money to spend? So lowering the minimum wage would reduce Greece's GDP aggravating their financial problems.
 
2012-05-07 10:34:14 AM  
Both sides are bad... so plant mines at the border?
 
2012-05-07 10:40:03 AM  

Algebrat: Both sides are bad... so plant mines at the border?


They want to expell illegal immigrants too. I guess the Greeks are sick of the Mexicans too.
 
2012-05-07 10:48:18 AM  

Muta: also question some of the measures of the austerity programs. The one that comes to mind is the lowering of the minimum wage. Don't they have an income tax in Greece? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage effectively lowering the tax revenues to the state? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage also reduce consumption since people have less money to spend? So lowering the minimum wage would reduce Greece's GDP aggravating their financial problems.


Which generates more tax revenue:

$0 x (tax rate) - (unemployment payouts)

$(lower minimum wage) x (tax rate)
 
2012-05-07 10:50:00 AM  

Muta: Splinshints: Whenever I see Greeks being interviewed about the whole bailout and austerity thing I'm always struck by just how dumb and short-sighted people can be.

I also question some of the measures of the austerity programs. The one that comes to mind is the lowering of the minimum wage. Don't they have an income tax in Greece? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage effectively lowering the tax revenues to the state? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage also reduce consumption since people have less money to spend? So lowering the minimum wage would reduce Greece's GDP aggravating their financial problems.


It depends on who will be doing most of the wage cutting - private companies or the government. Remember, the Greek government's finances are in dire straits... the people working in the private sector are fine, relatively speaking. If the government cuts more of their own wages than the private sector does, their balance should show a net positive from the move. If not, well...

The problem (I think) is that as a politician it's pretty hard to sell a huge wage cut to one section alone (the public workers). Even though that's where the cuts should mostly come from.

I live two countries north of Greece (Romania) and we did just that in 2010. All public workers got a 25% pay cut overnight. Painful, and perhaps healthy... but we are on our third prime minister since then and there will be a new one in the fall. In Greece it would be even worse. Hell, it already is.

There was also the issue of the minimum wage in Greece being way higher than countries like Portugal for example, which didn't make sense.
 
2012-05-07 10:56:20 AM  

MugzyBrown: Which generates more tax revenue:

$0 x (tax rate) - (unemployment payouts)

$(lower minimum wage) x (tax rate)


I question your assumptions since a lower minimum wage would reduce private sector consumption which would increase unemployment.

neaorin: It depends on who will be doing most of the wage cutting - private companies or the government. (. . .)


Thanks!
 
2012-05-07 11:00:00 AM  

Muta: I question your assumptions since a lower minimum wage would reduce private sector consumption which would increase unemployment.


So you think it's better for the economy for the government to give money to people for not working than for people to earn a little less by working for the private sector?


Who do you think funds the government?
 
2012-05-07 11:36:29 AM  

bhcompy: MugzyBrown: Balchinian: The people said no, and said it loudly enough to be heard in Greece. I heard it as well, and I know what it means.

The people said: We want free stuff and we want everybody else to pay for it.

I'm sorry, but the Greeks got boned by the Euro. They used to be a great travel destination for many European people because of favorable exchange rates, which boosted tourism and the bottom dollar. Now? Not so much. And see what happened. Sure, they have poor social management to cap it off, but they seemed to be doing well enough before they joined the Euro. I wish their leader stuck with the voter referendum rather than bending over for Merkel back a few months ago


They weren't doing fine. They cooked the books to make it _look_like they were doing fine (that's how they got into the Euro to begin with) then used the other countries' good credit lines to borrow and spend like drunken sailors on shore leave. So now they they hit the wall it's to the tune of three figure billions instead of the , and as the saying goes, when you owe the bank a million it's your problem but when you owe the bank a billion, it's the bank's problem.
 
2012-05-07 11:37:39 AM  
So now they they hit the wall it's to the tune of three figure billions instead of the

Fark me. That's what I get for walking away and then posting the second I come back.
 
2012-05-07 01:01:04 PM  

Muta: Splinshints: Whenever I see Greeks being interviewed about the whole bailout and austerity thing I'm always struck by just how dumb and short-sighted people can be.

I also question some of the measures of the austerity programs. The one that comes to mind is the lowering of the minimum wage. Don't they have an income tax in Greece? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage effectively lowering the tax revenues to the state? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage also reduce consumption since people have less money to spend? So lowering the minimum wage would reduce Greece's GDP aggravating their financial problems.


I'm not saying that there aren't debateable portions of the plan, it's just that whenever I see them being interviewed they seem infuriated to discover that they're being asked to cut back at all, as if they shouldn't have to make any changes for the money they want.

Obviously their current rules aren't working for them, they shouldn't be shocked to find that changes are demanded before being given a bailout.
 
2012-05-07 01:12:54 PM  

MugzyBrown: So you think it's better for the economy for the government to give money to people for not working than for people to earn a little less by working for the private sector?


I don't think that is the scenario that we're discussing. We're discussing minimum wage. The minimum wage is paid to people who are working. Why did you mention the government giving money for people not to work?
 
2012-05-07 01:20:11 PM  
I don't think that is the scenario that we're discussing. We're discussing minimum wage. The minimum wage is paid to people who are working. Why did you mention the government giving money for people not to work?

Considering lowering the minimum wage is to spur employment, it is exatly what is being discussed.

Which is better, people receiving unemployment benefits or being paid a slightly lower minimum wage by the private sector?
 
2012-05-07 01:26:12 PM  

Splinshints: Obviously their current rules aren't working for them, they shouldn't be shocked to find that changes are demanded before being given a bailout.


Oh very true. I'd think even the creditors would want to take steps to grow the Greek economy. According to Wiki, in 2010 before the austerity programs, the minimum wage was $3.36/hour. $3.36/hour is hardly a lavish wage. It looks to me that reducing it is an exercise in squeezing blood from a turnip.
 
2012-05-07 03:00:15 PM  

MugzyBrown: Balchinian: The people said no, and said it loudly enough to be heard in Greece. I heard it as well, and I know what it means.

The [rich] people said: We want free stuff and we want everybody else to pay for it.


And the general population said 'go fark a cactus, you thieving shiat; we're not going to let you societal parasites loot the treasury in order to maintain your income and lifestyle at the expense of the health, wealth, and welfare of everyone else; we will not allow you to shift the consequences of your incompetence, stupidity, and short-sighted greed onto us. You bloodsucking shiat created this mess, and we're going to tax you to pay off the mess you created.'
 
2012-05-07 04:45:47 PM  

Muta: Splinshints: Obviously their current rules aren't working for them, they shouldn't be shocked to find that changes are demanded before being given a bailout.

Oh very true. I'd think even the creditors would want to take steps to grow the Greek economy. According to Wiki, in 2010 before the austerity programs, the minimum wage was $3.36/hour. $3.36/hour is hardly a lavish wage. It looks to me that reducing it is an exercise in squeezing blood from a turnip.


Wiki must be wrong then; pre-cuts, the minimum monthly wage was 751 Euros, or around 980 USD. Link

That comes to about $5.8/hour; but government employees had extra monthly wages paid as bonuses - two each year, in fact. The theory was that paying those out around the holidays would help the economy. And although some sources do take those bonuses into account when listing workers' compensation, the minimum wage law does not. So in reality you're looking at $6.8/hour. For comparison, a small local beer costs about 65 US cents at the supermarket.

But the thing is, the minimum wage used to be about 20% higher than it was in Portugal. I've been to both countries more than once. I would be very surprised to learn that Greek workers were 20% more productive than their Portuguese counterparts.
 
2012-05-07 04:51:45 PM  

taliesinwi: They weren't doing fine. They cooked the books to make it _look_like they were doing fine (that's how they got into the Euro to begin with) then used the other countries' good credit lines to borrow and spend like drunken sailors on shore leave.


Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Admitting countries that did not stand a chance in hell of competing in a modern market economy into the monetary union was close to the original sin by the Eurocrats who thought they could managed anything. This was not supposed to have happened, at least not as the Euro was originally conceived. And big part of that original motive was expressly to deny a reunited Germany the DM.

Funny how things work out. Or not.
 
2012-05-07 08:12:21 PM  

MugzyBrown: Muta: also question some of the measures of the austerity programs. The one that comes to mind is the lowering of the minimum wage. Don't they have an income tax in Greece? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage effectively lowering the tax revenues to the state? Wouldn't lowering the minimum wage also reduce consumption since people have less money to spend? So lowering the minimum wage would reduce Greece's GDP aggravating their financial problems.

Which generates more tax revenue:

$0 x (tax rate) - (unemployment payouts)

$(lower minimum wage) x (tax rate)


Wouldn't they need to start paying taxes for those formulas to apply?
 
2012-05-08 12:24:06 AM  
I get the impression that tax evasion is as much a national pastime to Greeks as baseball is to Americans. Maybe this whole austerity episode will shame people into paying for all the shiat they demand from the government.

/Oh, you're serious?
//Let me laugh harder.
 
Displayed 26 of 26 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report