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(New York Magazine)   New York Post columnist who suggested that the Brooklyn Nets be renamed to the New York N*****s, with a pistol as their logo, wonders if there was something he shouldn't have said   (nymag.com ) divider line 84
    More: Dumbass, New York Post, online, Jay Z, logos, gangsta rap, Phil Mushnick, assault weapons  
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3051 clicks; posted to Sports » on 07 May 2012 at 9:29 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-07 11:44:19 AM  

IAmRight: Devils are scary and powerful, both of which are considered desirable traits for sports teams.


Yeah, but so are n.....

/Narwhals. I was going to say narwhals.
 
2012-05-07 11:46:47 AM  

SharkTrager: HotWingConspiracy: Jay-Z profits from the worst and most sustaining self-enslaving stereotypes of black-American culture

The Post sucks, the guy is a racist, but he's still right about this part. Some of the most extreme advancing of the stereotypes is coming from the hip hop community, and while they are quick to call others on it, most of them will not call out their peers.


I would never expect self reflection from a music genre, and if you're a media figure and ever imagine that you'll be the guy to break open this whole "how come they can say n****r but I can't" thing, put the piece in the trash bin and start over.
 
2012-05-07 12:41:51 PM  

sedric: if you use it in your music and day-to-day slang then the N-word is ok for all..
but its not is it, 2012 is so confusing.


Except that, as in all things, context matters. Brits who use the debatably offensive and probably filtered "tw-" word, for example, don't exactly mean it in the anatomical sense (despite the almost certain ultimate origin). It mostly refers to a foolish bloke, actually, and is rarely (in my experience) used to describe women in a hateful way. Same with its filtered four-letter anatomical synonym that starts with "c," which can even be used affectionately back over there.

But when Americans use those words, they usually sound downright vitriolic. Part of it is the spoken inflection, but part of it is the context: many Americans who use that four-letter word that starts with "c" learn it as an intentional slur and debasement, and the context of use makes that intent clear. And one can tell from the way the word is said how the speaker meant it-- or rather, the familiar manner in which it is not being used.

Consider the NSFW parking-lot scene from The Way of the Gun; now consider this (also NSFW) pair of taproom scenes from Trainspotting. The Scottish usage in the latter clip is nowhere near as insulting or jarring as the American usage in the former, and note that Begbie refers to the woman he's just glassed as a "lassie," saving the variably offensive word in question as a generic term for people with a masculine (and vaguely, by tone of voice, threatening) implication. Similarly, consider this (probably also NSFW) clip from Spaced, in which Daisy unexpectedly admonishes Tim for using an offensive "word that hates women." What's jarring there is not so much the casual use of an offensive word, but rather the offense taken at one that is so commonly used without insult.

Profanity cannot be universal within a language as varied and widespread as English. Certain words have more or less weight within certain groups of English-speakers, and when used out-group lose the mitigating, exculpatory, or explanatory context.

Brits aren't Americans. "Divided by a common language" is the quip, as I recall. And so each side makes certain allowances for the other, with some words understood to mean different things for the different groups (chips, pants, etc). There is long study and documentation supporting the existence of a Black English Vernacular with some vocabulary, syntax, and intonation distinct from standard non-regional American English.. Why is it so hard to extend the same courtesy within subsets of American speakers? Context matters. Jay-Z can use certain words in certain ways when speaking in vernacular, but when he code-switches into standard American English, those words tend to drop out of favour. It's not that some people can use certain words without recrimination, it's that in-group speakers of certain dialects can do. When an urban American Northeasterner uses a mixed-modal construction like "might could," in the company of some Southerners, the Southerners occasionally suspect they're being mocked.It takes time, knowledge, and context to pass oneself off as a native speaker of a foreign (here meaning non-native) dialect and to learn effective, appropriate code-switching.

Like it or not, the n-word has multiple meanings in different dialects, and it's pants-on-head ignorant to suspect otherwise or that an out-group speaker can take it out of context without potentially activating the outgroup context.
 
2012-05-07 12:48:21 PM  
Denver N*****s
 
2012-05-07 01:04:30 PM  
Mushnick should know better than to bring up the point that Jay-Z stands for every racial stereotype that the condescending media left love to embrace. Its ok that he demeans his own race and black women--its all good in the hood. If the Black Community will jump all over Bill Cosby, what made him think they wouldnt crucify him?

The NBA reminds me of a present-day minstrel show anyway, with highly paid entertainers. The owners are white, the fans in the stands are overwhelmingly white, the corporate sponsors are target a white audience (except for the racist McDonalds commercials) and networks are all run by white guys.
 
2012-05-07 01:15:00 PM  

torr5962: Mushnick should know better than to bring up the point that Jay-Z stands for every racial stereotype that the condescending media left love to embrace. Its ok that he demeans his own race and black women--its all good in the hood. If the Black Community will jump all over Bill Cosby, what made him think they wouldnt crucify him?

The NBA reminds me of a present-day minstrel show anyway, with highly paid entertainers. The owners are white, the fans in the stands are overwhelmingly white, the corporate sponsors are target a white audience (except for the racist McDonalds commercials) and networks are all run by white guys.


cdn.hiphopstan.com

"That's turruble!"

 
2012-05-07 01:29:11 PM  
Sounds about right for the Post.
 
2012-05-07 01:41:08 PM  

torr5962: The owners are white


Kindly define your terms-- given that this thread is about Jay-Z, part owner of the Nets, such overgeneralisations seem a touch ridiculous.

torr5962: the fans in the stands are overwhelmingly white


Numbers, please?

torr5962: corporate sponsors are target a white audience (except for the racist McDonalds commercials)


Ah, never mind. You're either a moron or a troll.
 
2012-05-07 02:05:48 PM  

xpisblack: torr5962: The owners are white

Kindly define your terms-- given that this thread is about Jay-Z, part owner of the Nets, such overgeneralisations seem a touch ridiculous.

torr5962: the fans in the stands are overwhelmingly white

Numbers, please?

torr5962: corporate sponsors are target a white audience (except for the racist McDonalds commercials)

Ah, never mind. You're either a moron or a troll.


I don't agree with what torr5962 said, however, Jay-Z owns like 1% of the team. The only reason he's even talked about is because he's farking Jay-Z! Second, fans that go to games are mostly white, you don't need stats to know this, go to a game and see for yourself. That doesn't necessarily mean the target audience is white, however.
 
2012-05-07 02:21:49 PM  

fatalvenom: A Fark Handle: yeah, that's silly the only time you can suggest the new york n*****s as a team name is when discussing the stupidity that is having a team named the washington redskins. seriously, what farking decade are we living in?

Vancouver Canucks?


Notre Dame Fighting Irish?

North Dakota Fighting Sioux?

University of Northern Colorado Fighting Whities?
 
2012-05-07 02:42:27 PM  
Ahh, look at all the white people complain about how they can't say the n-word anymore, truly a downtrodden people.
 
2012-05-07 02:43:34 PM  

SkepticalBeliever: I don't agree with what torr5962 said, however, Jay-Z owns like 1% of the team. The only reason he's even talked about is because he's farking Jay-Z! Second, fans that go to games are mostly white, you don't need stats to know this, go to a game and see for yourself. That doesn't necessarily mean the target audience is white, however.


I do go to games, and the colour-makeup of the majority of fans varies quite a lot, from my observation, by city. Obviously, the Celtics and Jazz and Wolves play in front of largely white crowds; some other teams less so. I don't have the numbers to hand, but my impressions from my past attendance suggest a more complex picture than torr's finger-painting here. I think the stats do matter; otherwise, this is just a pointlessly broad claim with only anecdotal support at best (I know, "Welcome to Fark," right?). Which you also seem to find sufficient. Fine; I don't. Torr made the assertion; I'm curious about the data behind it.

Along the same lines as your point about Jay-Z's stake, Usher also only owns part of the Cavs. But Jordan owns the Bobcats, so the validity of torr5962's claim remains in question; also, 11 teams are nominally owned by named corporations and not individuals (though, in fairness, most of them have white or white-looking CEOs/Chairmen/Owners, and some are ad-hoc companies created for the purpose of owning a sports franchise or several)-- making a generalisation that the owners are faceless companies equally (read: not very) valid. It may amount to the same thing, but only because some companies present white public faces, just as the Nets have established Jay-Z as one of their public faces.

And I'll admit that I wanted to know what torr5962 meant by white; it would help evaluate the accuracy of that generalisation. How white does a person have to be to count as white? Cuban white or more? Maloof white? Gores white? Is there a paper bag test involved somewhere? Does population proportion factor in? It's a stupid way to categorise attendance (or ownership), particularly given the vagaries of observer bias. Colour matters less than many other factors, and is far too often used as coded and bad shorthand for socioeconomic class. And why single out the fans in the stands whilst mentioning the corporate sponsors? The sponsors care far more about the television audience than the folks in the stands, because the home-viewer numbers are so vastly higher-- what are the figures on that audience? So what's the point, and where are the data? That's what I want to know. Because otherwise, torr's just saying that watching black athletes is reminiscent of a minstrel show, which says far more about torr than about the sport or the business.

And Jay-Z is discussed because Prokhorov has allowed him to be one of the public faces of the ownership group (yes, because he's Jay-goddamn-Z), making his actual stake less important than his public deeds. He's discussed because he sometimes speaks and acts on behalf of and with authorisation from the other owners, and therefore his presence in the group matters more than his stake might suggest.
 
2012-05-07 02:47:37 PM  
What's black and white and red all over?

A Brooklyn Nets shirt with ketchup on it.
 
2012-05-07 03:12:47 PM  
Phil Mushnick? Is he still around?

maniacjoe.com
Fun fact: the name D-Generation X was taken from one of Phil's columns, where he lambasted both pro wrestling and its entire fanbase, dubbing the latter "Degeneration X". So thanks for that, Phil. That's one thing you've done for the world.
 
2012-05-07 03:18:28 PM  

ciderczar: ElwoodCuse: ciderczar: Like redskins or the devil.

The Jersey Devil is New Jersey's version of Bigfoot or Chupacabras, they didn't name the team after Satan.

As a Devils fan, I know. There are other teams though. Manchester United Red Devils, Arizona State Sun Devils, Duke Blue Devils, DePaul Demons, etc.


MUFC doesn't have an official mascot like we do them here in the US. Sure, you can call them the Magpies or the Blues or the Gunners but those are just nicknames. In the UK, they don't do the city/mascot thing like we do.
 
2012-05-07 03:22:14 PM  

SkepticalBeliever: xpisblack: torr5962: The owners are white

Kindly define your terms-- given that this thread is about Jay-Z, part owner of the Nets, such overgeneralisations seem a touch ridiculous.

torr5962: the fans in the stands are overwhelmingly white

Numbers, please?

torr5962: corporate sponsors are target a white audience (except for the racist McDonalds commercials)

Ah, never mind. You're either a moron or a troll.

I don't agree with what torr5962 said, however, Jay-Z owns like 1% of the team. The only reason he's even talked about is because he's farking Jay-Z! Second, fans that go to games are mostly white, you don't need stats to know this, go to a game and see for yourself. That doesn't necessarily mean the target audience is white, however.


Who?
 
2012-05-07 03:30:22 PM  

SkepticalBeliever: xpisblack: torr5962: The owners are white

Kindly define your terms-- given that this thread is about Jay-Z, part owner of the Nets, such overgeneralisations seem a touch ridiculous.

torr5962: the fans in the stands are overwhelmingly white

Numbers, please?

torr5962: corporate sponsors are target a white audience (except for the racist McDonalds commercials)

Ah, never mind. You're either a moron or a troll.

I don't agree with what torr5962 said, however, Jay-Z owns like 1% of the team. The only reason he's even talked about is because he's farking Jay-Z! Second, fans that go to games are mostly white, you don't need stats to know this, go to a game and see for yourself. That doesn't necessarily mean the target audience is white, however.


The country is mostly white, so that doesn't really mean much.
 
2012-05-07 03:37:54 PM  

SDRR: Who?


Mike Jones.
 
2012-05-07 03:46:41 PM  
Why do people keep calling jayz the owner? doesn't he own like, less than 2% of the team?
 
2012-05-07 03:56:44 PM  

TheJoe03: SDRR: Who?

Mike Jones.


Don't act like you don't know the name
Ain't nothing changed but his change, he gonna stay the same
 
2012-05-07 05:26:52 PM  
So funny to see all the Liberal ButtHurt whenever white guys use a term that Blacks use to describe themselves all the time.

Heck, even the New Hero of the Left, Trayvon Martin, called himself a "No Limit" one...

But, within the bigoted world of Black Racists and their White Guilt Liberal butt-kissers....certain words are not OK for Honky to say.

Total BS that a white reporter gets blasted for a term blacks use all the time. Yes, that is racist
 
2012-05-07 05:33:23 PM  

UCFRoadWarrior: So funny to see all the Liberal ButtHurt whenever white guys use a term that Blacks use to describe themselves all the time.


Do you recall the history of that word and just why it sounds bad for a old white guy to say it? I personally don't care if he said it, but I do think his whole article sounded like a bunch of out of touch garbage by some grumpy white guy. Certain words aren't okay for certain people to say. Minorities don't go around calling white people white trash to their face and you would expect a reporter that said such a thing to be fired. This is all common sense, but since YOU are the one who has racist thoughts, you end up freaking out because you can't say a racial slur in public, and then you attempt to turn it around on black people and white people that aren't racist.
 
2012-05-07 06:04:05 PM  
I'll admit that I wanted to know what torr5962 meant by white; it would help evaluate the accuracy of that generalisation. How white does a person have to be to count as white?

To make sure there is an association with what Mushnik was saying, for white, one could really count anyone who is just "not black". The majority of the NBA are American Blacks. I dont see these same faces in any of the 10+ arenas I've been in. Granted, not all of them are in urban areas (Auburn Hills vs Detroit, etc) But my hometown of Philly is in the city. I only see a slight rise in Black attendance when compared to other NBA teams.

...Because otherwise, torr's just saying that watching black athletes is reminiscent of a minstrel show, which says far more about torr than about the sport or the business.


Torr is saying that it has always seemed to me that its a game of white owners using black players to market their game to white crowds. Im not the first one to see this, say it or write it. Spike Lee said a similar thing about rappers in the 90's.

I also see hypocrisy amongst non-blacks and non-minorities overall, by condoning Jay-Z as being the face of the Nets (1.5% interest be damned), to make the league seem relevant to the urban community. Its pandering to "urban" crowd, using its worst stereotypes, while its really targeting a more affluent group (middle aged white guys and their suburban kids).

I get season sets and promo tickets for Sixers games. I can tell you the crowd is routinely 60-70% white (Or non-black) When I lived in Miami the 2 years before Shaq came to the Heat, I can tell you the crowd was at least 70% non-black. For 2 games I was at Conseco FieldHouse, the crowd was easily 95% white. But I cant use Indianapolis because the town has a vastly higher non-black population. You cant say the same thing about Sixers and pre-Shaq Heat Games.

Only The Sixers have a majority black owner in Josh Harris. That means there are 31 teams with white owners (11 of them Jewish-not sure what that means, if anything).

Here are some demographics for the NBA target market: It seems to say that the NBA doesnt look away from its urban niche, but it most definitely knows middle aged white collar white guys will go to games.
Link


Demographic makeup of major North American Sports.
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2010/06/Issue-185/The - Back-Of-The-Book/Fan-Demographics-Among-Major-North-American-Sports-Le agues.aspx



There have been numerous Sociology papers that try to find an association with the racial composition of a team and its effects on attendance (something that Charles Barkley alluded to 10 years ago). Theres also an article by Buzz Bissinger that backs up Chuck's claim.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-02-18/sports/30078659_1_lebr o n-james-number-of-foreign-born-players-nbaLink
 
2012-05-07 06:08:39 PM  
Sorry about the links:

Buzz article
Link

Demographic makeup of fans in N. American Sports
Link
 
2012-05-07 06:13:01 PM  
xpisblack:

Your either a moron or a troll.


Those are my only two choices?
 
2012-05-07 06:23:25 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Les gens devraient être plus civilisé.

Fromage
 
2012-05-08 09:48:11 AM  

torr5962: Torr is saying that it has always seemed to me that its a game of white owners using black players to market their game to white crowds. Im not the first one to see this, say it or write it. Spike Lee said a similar thing about rappers in the 90's.


I'm not sure what you're saying about the "using black players to market their game," I'd just say that black players tend to be the best at the sport. I'm pretty sure they'd love to use white guys, as they love to market the everloving sh*t out of anyone who is good and even sort of looks white.

There is definitely a desire from Stern, et al., to try to not go too "thug," as evidenced by things like the dress code and the extreme punishments for any type of fight - sports with predominately white players typically ARE allowed to fight with almost no repercussions, while NBA players are consistently vilified for doing so within the media.

However, I'd say that Jay-Z has become the spokesperson for the Nets not necessarily just because he's black, but because players love him and because he has ties to the Brooklyn area - their owner is Russian and it doesn't really benefit them to have him be the face of the franchise, even if he is an interesting guy. Having dealt with smaller leagues where celebrity owners get stakes in franchises pretty much for publicity purposes, it happens a lot and it's not particularly weird. Jay-Z appeals to the NBA players and makes them more relevant to NBA players - Prokhorov is best suited being the financial backer. No one here really knows anything about him, but they grew up listening to Jay-Z's music and already have that connection.

So Jay-Z's definitely a "face" for the ownership, but I think it's more about connecting to the players and the area than it is about race (though I'm sure that's a component).
 
2012-05-08 09:50:28 AM  

torr5962: Only The Sixers have a majority black owner in Josh Harris. That means there are 31 teams with white owners (11 of them Jewish-not sure what that means, if anything).


I would also like to correct you and mention that Michael Jordan is actually the majority owner of the Bobcats. Pretty sure he's black. Unless it's really that guy from the commercials.

And there are only 30 teams in the NBA. So it's a little better than you're saying.
 
2012-05-08 10:22:17 AM  

Jim from Saint Paul: swahnhennessy: I don't side with the guy's implied morality, but I don't think he deserves any heat for what he said. He disagrees with Jay-Z's use of those terms and penned something neither smart nor funny. But also not offensive. We can't raise a red flag every time whitey uses the "N" word. There's context to consider.

CSB(?) time:

So last year I started watching Boondocks. Hilarious show. Got through the first 2 seasons. On XBox Live there are about 5 to 7 guys I hang with on a daily basis playing various games. The majority are black. I mentioned this to them and they started quoting Boondocks. So I start quoting it too. Believe it or not, all but one found it funny/couldn't-have-cared-less. The one that didn't though still has me muted. Apparently saying "There's a whole lot of ni**atry going on in he-are" is unacceptable from that guy. Although I did this for a few days with this group and was never once told "hey, don't do this" by anyone including the guy who muted me.

/of course most of my other black friends still drop the N-bomb-ending-with-a all the time and that's cool


I spent about half my formative years in places where, if you were going to use that term as a white person, best be carrying a gun... I know it's changed some. I've seen white retards who'd watched too many rap videos throw the N-word around in rooms with black folks in them, and walk out of the room with a straight nose and all of their teeth. It's still nothing I'd even consider doing, and something I really don't approve of anyone else doing, either.
 
2012-05-08 11:02:20 AM  
Rex Kramer seems to have inspired far too many of you.
www.panelsonpages.com
 
2012-05-08 11:07:49 AM  

IAmRight: torr5962: Only The Sixers have a majority black owner in Josh Harris. That means there are 31 teams with white owners (11 of them Jewish-not sure what that means, if anything).

I would also like to correct you and mention that Michael Jordan is actually the majority owner of the Bobcats. Pretty sure he's black. Unless it's really that guy from the commercials.

And there are only 30 teams in the NBA. So it's a little better than you're saying.


So, in the NBA you have two teams (7%) with African Americans as majority owners and two more (Nets and 76ers) with African Americans as important minority owners. That doesn't seem so bad, really.
 
2012-05-08 11:47:12 AM  

meanmutton: So, in the NBA you have two teams (7%) with African Americans as majority owners and two more (Nets and 76ers) with African Americans as important minority owners. That doesn't seem so bad, really.


Well, you're counting the 76ers twice, but compared to other leagues, yeah, it's probably about as well as you can do. Of the people that can afford major sports franchises, virtually all of them are white. As some of the racial impediments to wealth begin to work their way through society, there will be more possibilities, but currently the easiest way to have significant contributions from black owners is to have famous ones that are the public face of the ownership group (Magic Johnson with the Dodgers?) while other, less famous billionaires actually provide the financing.

As of April 2012, Jay-Z was worth about $460 million, which is No. 7 in the world for black people (Oprah is No. 1 and the most capable of owning a franchise outright without it requiring all her money: she has $2.7 billion - no one else on the list has more than $700 million).

Prokhorov, the guy who owns the majority of the Nets, has a net worth of $9.5 billion.

Prokhorov's share of the Nets cost $380 million ($200 million + assuming $180 million worth of debt). No way is anyone taking 80% of their net worth and putting it on a basketball team.

$380 million is 4 percent of Prokhorov's wealth. It's actually 82.6 percent of Jay-Z's.

/of course, now Jay-Z and Beyonce have a combined family net worth of $750 million, which makes them the richest black family this side of Oprah...and Oprah has more than 3x their combined money.
//and Prokhorov has more than 3x her money
 
2012-05-08 12:43:55 PM  
This following image is of Josh Harris. If he counts as black, then I believe you'll find the fanbase to be considerably less white than you claim
media.philly.com
 
2012-05-08 08:17:29 PM  
Sorry--didnt mean to count 76ers and Josh Harris as black majority owner-meant to include the Sixers as having black minority ownership, similar to Jay-Z and the Nets. There are 4 teams with Black minority ownership. Only 1 team has majority black ownership--The Bobcats.

"Jay-Z has become the spokesperson for the Nets not necessarily just because he's black, but because players love him and because he has ties to the Brooklyn area."

Its not because he's black that the players love him. The players love him because he represents not only Brooklyn, but urban New York, and his music is popular in that environment. Part of the "inner city" cred is from his lyrics, and this is what Mushnick was complaining about-Should Jay-Z, with all his misogynistic, drug inferred lyrics sprayed with the N-word, really be the face of an NBA team? I personally have no problem with Jay-Z representing any company. That's my choice. But I'm not black. If no one black has come out on Jay, then sadly, no one non-black can either. Mushnick doesnt understand that the NBA is counting on the black community to stand by certain icons no matter what they have done or what stereotypes they represent. Its just the way it is. I still think the bigger issue is with the NBA itself--the silence concerning Jay-Z overall. It means to me that they don't mind the stereotypes he represents.
 
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