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(The Fiscal Times)   Economists now predicting a "lost decade" in the U.S., characterized by high unemployment, sluggish growth and rising inequality. Welcome to the Obama Economy   (thefiscaltimes.com) divider line 62
    More: Fail, economists  
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2020 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 May 2012 at 4:42 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-05-07 06:13:55 AM
9 votes:
Ten easy things the US/Fed should be doing to prevent this lost decade if we didn't have a bunch of bought and sold chucklefarks in charge of our political systems.

1) Reinstate Glass Steagall, along with letting the Consumer protections agency have some serious teeth.
2) Have the Fed set a long term target inflation rate of 3-4% to encourage investment and get that two trillion companies are hoarding moving around the economy.
3) Raise the Federal minimum wage. Seriously. $10 isn't going to put your small business under. If it will, you suck at business.
4) Repeal the Bush Tax Cuts. Seriously. Putting the top marginal tax rate back to 39.4% isn't going to bankrupt you.
5) Scrap the Healthcare bill and get serious about doing single payer/Medicare for All.
6) Create a serious WPA style program putting a serious investment into infrastructure/high speed broadband across the US.
7) Create an after high school higher education program that helps high schoolers get some form of higher education - whether it's from a traditional four year state school or a Trade School.
8) Get the unions going again.
9) Repeal Citizens United and get the money out of politics.
10) Renew Community (OK, I just threw that last one in there for me)

/KOTWC OUT!
2012-05-06 09:54:05 PM
6 votes:

NeedlesslyCanadian: Yep. The out-of-control spending and against-all-advice deregulation spearheaded by the last clown in office had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Obama is completely responsible in every way for the collapse that was well underway for at least 6 months before he sat in the big chair. Completely his fault.


6 months? our problems began with the repeal of Glass-Steagal.
2012-05-06 09:51:38 PM
6 votes:
Yep. The out-of-control spending and against-all-advice deregulation spearheaded by the last clown in office had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Obama is completely responsible in every way for the collapse that was well underway for at least 6 months before he sat in the big chair. Completely his fault.
2012-05-07 12:13:03 AM
5 votes:
Outsourcing without tariff consequences has been fabulous for the top 1%.

/just an observation
2012-05-07 04:54:24 AM
3 votes:
Who would've thought that outsourcing every 'unskilled' job and playing games with fake money on computers would have a negative long-term effect on the economy? The house of cards is teetering...
2012-05-06 11:55:53 PM
3 votes:
Bush got us into this tailspin... Obama has been fighting the Republicans in Congress to pull us out of it, without much success. If Romney becomes president, we're pretty much screwed all the way around.
2012-05-07 09:34:10 AM
2 votes:

Phinn: Philip Francis Queeg: What a steaming load of utter horseshiat. Does it worry you that the only people who use your services are complete morons?

They own all the businesses in three of the wealthiest counties in America.

They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

And not a single one of them is so much as buying an extra paperclip until Obama is out of office.

But, hey, try some of your amazing rhetorical skillz on all of the entrepreneurs in America -- tell them how the business acumen they've built up over a lifetime is "horseshiat," and how their anti-Obama holding-pattern business strategy means they are "morons."

I'm sure that will fix the economy. That sort of rhetoric has worked miracles already, after all.

Or, you can go pound sand in impotent rage. Be sure to save your tears of frustration for me later.


It's your clients that are pouting in impotent rage. Passing up money making opportunities because they don't like the President is moronic. It is horseshiat, and I'd be happy to explain it to them.
2012-05-07 09:01:00 AM
2 votes:
It isn't Obama's fault. It isn't Bush's fault. Or Clinton's, or any president's. A quiet kleptocracy has stolen the reins of government and has used them to tie Liberty to the bedpost and sodomize her nightly.

This isn't a conspiracy theory- I don't believe that it's an organized conspiracy. But what you do have is a lot of actors who have interests that align with each other, against the interests of the broader public, and have more political power than the broader public. We are witnessing the rebirth of the aristocratic age, and unless we drown this infant now, it is going to grow into a ferocious beast that will consume our future and send the United States, and much of the world, into a dark age.

Debates over, "Your side is less evil than your side!" only serves to turn the competition between the aristocrats into a circus- a sporting event. Your allegiance to the Republicans or the Democrats is still an alliance with the new aristocracy that does not have your best interests at heart.
2012-05-07 08:05:48 AM
2 votes:

GAT_00: Woah now, the GOP doesn't want to be talking about specifics.


mittens accidentally got specific this weekend. he said that the recovery should be seeing 500,000 jobs a month - a figure that has only happened 16 months since the great depression, 14 under democratic presidents.
2012-05-07 06:41:58 AM
2 votes:
The obama economy is the result of many factors that started before obama and bush jr were in office.

In the 90's, the shadowy derivatives market was overlooked for regulation and the repeal of existing many regulations is what resulted in the banks losing so much money. Banks, insurance companies, and investment banks were allowed to merge to become so large that we needed to bail out their loses and risks.

During bush's term, lenders and politicians thought that home values would continue to rise is what hit house prices and the construction so badly. On that mess's coattails is the commercial real estate market failing and taking away chunks of local and state taxes.

On the jobs' front so many corporations sent good paying jobs away to china and mexico. Those fired workers got paid less while upper management in turn was paid bonuses for increasing profits. When the economy tanked, many blue collars jobs went away and will not return.

I would fault obama for not calling out republicans. He should have attacked the gop over the job creator label for high income earners from the start, because the only jobs they create are servants. The lion's share of job growth is from corporations and companies owned by shareholders. He also should have attacked state and local governments for the cuts that they made because those cuts also deepened private sector job loses. Look at the how scott walker's cuts caused Wisconsin to be one of the only states to lose jobs in the last year.
2012-05-07 06:31:09 AM
2 votes:

Knight of the Woeful Countenance: Ten easy things the US/Fed should be doing to prevent this lost decade if we didn't have a bunch of bought and sold chucklefarks in charge of our political systems.

1) Reinstate Glass Steagall, along with letting the Consumer protections agency have some serious teeth.
2) Have the Fed set a long term target inflation rate of 3-4% to encourage investment and get that two trillion companies are hoarding moving around the economy.
3) Raise the Federal minimum wage. Seriously. $10 isn't going to put your small business under. If it will, you suck at business.
4) Repeal the Bush Tax Cuts. Seriously. Putting the top marginal tax rate back to 39.4% isn't going to bankrupt you.
5) Scrap the Healthcare bill and get serious about doing single payer/Medicare for All.
6) Create a serious WPA style program putting a serious investment into infrastructure/high speed broadband across the US.
7) Create an after high school higher education program that helps high schoolers get some form of higher education - whether it's from a traditional four year state school or a Trade School.
8) Get the unions going again.
9) Repeal Citizens United and get the money out of politics.
10) Renew Community (OK, I just threw that last one in there for me)

/KOTWC OUT!


I generally agree, but there are a couple of issues here.

-federal mininum wage ends up distorting things a bit, as there are very different costs of living in different states. i'd rather see that set at the state level, despite the risk of a race to the bottom in wages.

-the problem with the consumer protection agency is not that it is weak, but that it exists in the first place. One of the problems that led to the credit crisis was regulator shopping among firms, and confusion as to which regulator had juristiction. creating the CPA just adds to the alphabet soup of financial regulators: Fed, CFTC, SEC, OCC, FDIC, etc.

give the powers of the CPA and OCC to FDIC, and merge the SEC and CFTC together with some of the Fed's regulatory powers.

both the Retail and Investment banks would have one official, national regulator for each of them.
2012-05-07 06:23:21 AM
2 votes:
The funny thing is the right will somehow blame it on Obama making a half-assed attempt to help poor people. Do these farking people honestly not have the insight to see the system is bought completely and has been explicitly impoverishing everyone for thirty years? The cognitive dissonance has stopped being funny and now it's just frightening.
2012-05-07 05:44:29 AM
2 votes:
I am so sick and tired of the GOP having shat the bed and trying to blame it on Obama.

Yes, we get it. You're mouthbreathing retards who think you can convince the majority who, while not being as loud, are smart enough to remember what Bush did to this country.
2012-05-07 05:09:54 AM
2 votes:
i249.photobucket.com
2012-05-07 12:43:28 AM
2 votes:
Gosh who would have ever guessed in the 1980s that decades of cutting taxes, eliminating market stabilizing regulations, and flushing money down the military campaign toilet would have negative effects on the economy.

Maybe more tax cuts, bail outs, and less regulations will work this time. I mean, it's never worked before but eventually it's got to. Right?
2012-05-07 12:40:37 AM
2 votes:

chiett: It's ALL Bush's fault ..... La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La ....
(fingers in ears)


img3.imageshack.us

We've already had a lost decade, and yes, it was Bush's fault.
2012-05-07 12:29:34 AM
2 votes:

GAT_00: the GOP doesn't want to be talking about specifics. They just want to repeat over and over that Obama wrecked everything and they'll fix it. Details are kind of a problem, and they don't want any of those. It's a fact-free and specific-free campaign.


it is a little creepy
the job creators have had the bush tax cuts for 10 years now?
so, um, WHERE are all the jobs???
seriously

so, the only fair experiment, is to reverse the bush cuts and actually increase the tax on the 1% by the amount they were cut for the last 10 years.
and we can come back in 2022 and see what happened.

/it is the only FAIR thing to do
2012-05-07 12:13:51 AM
2 votes:
I blame Bush.

No, seriously, I blame Bush
2012-05-06 10:01:25 PM
2 votes:

Weaver95: NeedlesslyCanadian: Yep. The out-of-control spending and against-all-advice deregulation spearheaded by the last clown in office had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Obama is completely responsible in every way for the collapse that was well underway for at least 6 months before he sat in the big chair. Completely his fault.

6 months? our problems began with the repeal of Glass-Steagal.


Certainly! But the full fruit of that 1999 boneheadedness didn't come to fore till 2007 or so.

Can we take a guess at who was running the House then? The Senate?

Clue #1: The answer to both questions is the same
Clue #2: It wasn't Obama
2012-05-08 09:29:18 PM
1 votes:

Phinn: There are no market failures.

That's a euphemism for "refraining from violence is inconvenient and frustrating, so I'll force people to follow my preferences."

You're the one who never heard of markets. Enjoy your self-referential bubble of ignorance, sunshine.


Right, asshole. Sure.

You should enjoy the revolution that is coming. How gated is your community? Are you armed? I hope so for your sake

GOP plan boosts Pentagon, cuts social programs

Keep voting teabagger you selfish narcissistic psychopath. Pitchforks are sharpening. And it's your grandma gonna lead that charge you ignorant prick.
2012-05-07 01:06:39 PM
1 votes:
Economists now predicting a "lost decade" in the U.S., characterized by high unemployment, sluggish growth and rising inequality. Welcome to the Republican Economy



fixed for truth, justice, and the American way...
2012-05-07 11:34:02 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: But none of that changes the fact that, in my line of work, and that of the people I work with, all of whom consult with the owners of all of the major businesses in my area, along with a large number of people who made a lot of money owning businesses in other parts of the country and moved here for the weather, are all saying the same thing -- now is not the time to make any major business moves.

They are waiting.


It is also possible that they are not in a position to make any move but due to their political bias they claim they are choosing not to and parroting the "uncertainty" rhetoric that they hear on AM radio so they can fling poo at the guy who is on the wrong "team" but currently in charge.

People are, generally, lying sacks of shiat.
2012-05-07 11:26:25 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: someonelse: Why yes, it's totally plausible that every single small-to-medium-sized business owner has shared this information with you during the course of your dealings with them. Your claim is completely credible and in no way silly.

I'm a business litigator. It's my job to discuss their legal problems, and in the course of developing a legal strategy, to know what their projections and plans are.

All of the other commercial lawyers in my area say the same thing about what business owners are saying to them. So too all of the other people who provide similar services to businesses (and to each other), like accountants, financial advisers, lenders, and advertisers.

Believe me if you want. I don't care.

The fact is that you Leftists have totally missed what the owners of small-to-mid-sized businesses in America are saying and thinking. It comes as no surprise to me. The fact that you'd react to their perceptions and opinions with anger and resentment and argumentation is typical. Your entire political constituency is over-represented with bureaucrats, government employees, parasites, academics, perpetual students, and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy and protection. You have built relatively few businesses.

The people who are actually building businesses with voluntarily-paying customers do not think the same way.

Your blind spot in this area is also the reason you will continue to have no influence on anyone, and end up turning to the government to accomplish anything. You have no ability to cooperate with people, to work together, to earn someone else's voluntary cooperation. So, to get your way, you have to resort to brow-beating, attack and ultimately the regulator and tax collector.


Ah, a leech. This explains much.

I'd be willing to "conservatively" wager that at *least* 50% of the commenters in this thread are college educated, and have jobs at real businesses with real wages and families to support. Do you consider that too far-fetched?

So, if those commenters are working, and their experience is that the company they work for is not sitting on their hands, converting their assets to gold and beef jerky (Gold Beef Jerky - what a marvelous idea) then perhaps you can see why they consider your assertion that Every Last Business that you deal with is so scared of Fartbongo that they are patiently awaiting rescue to be complete bullshiat.

Or you're such a lousy litigator you can't even manage to reason out your arguments in front of a bunch of cheeto-stained Libtards on a dweeb website without resorting to insults, lies and abuse.

Personally, I think these businesses are just withholding their money from *you*, and telling you "I'm waiting for Obama to get run out of town on a rail" as a way of rationalizing why they won't give *you* any of their money.

They get rid of you, and you stride off with the smug satisfaction that once Fartbongo is retired, you'll be back.

\the "reformat and reinstall" of lawyer relations
\\maybe you should give that barrista job a shot
2012-05-07 11:24:20 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: Antimatter: We work with smaller and community banks providing various sorts of software and such. The regulatory pressure on the big banks, combined with stuff like TARP, OWS, etc, has driven many from the large banks to said smaller ones, and that's increasing demand for software like ours. We work nation wide.

Thanks for the specifics.

I have a great deal of respect for the software industry. It's massive growth is the result of a relatively hands-off attitude that the government has taken. It moves too fast to be regulated. It's the closest thing to a free market there is. Making it in that line of work takes a lot of skill and good business sense.

The fact that your customers are banks is important. There are few businesses that are more heavily governmental (except maybe medical care nowadays). Predicting what's going to happen in that business is more a matter of predicting what the government is going to do, rather than what the market is going to do. I once saw a single change in an accounting regulation close dozens of lenders almost overnight. That was right before the FIRREA in 1989.

Which, not coincidentally, was the genesis of the Fannie-Freddie monstrosity as we know it, which precipitated the crisis we are experiencing today, which in turn instigated a slew of current and recent political disasters.


Banks are regulated because they keep causing disasters, which then requires the government to take action to try to prevent in the future. the problem is, one of the parties hates all regulation, and dials them back, only to cause another disaster. even now, they are wanting to roll back some of the new regulations, or defund them, knowing this will just lead to another banking crisis in the future.

But they don't care, because short term profits are the only thing on their mind, and they think they can always use taxpayer money to bail them out again if needed.
2012-05-07 11:14:38 AM
1 votes:

X-boxershorts: ferretman: Obama already explained the reason for high employment (~8.1%/22.5%):

ATM's and self-checkout lanes. Technology is keeping people out of work.

//maybe it would help if the Democratically majority Senate would actually propose/attempt to past a budget; it's only been over 1,000 days since a budget was passed.
///but that's Bush's fault as well.

Because the body that develops and presents the budget which the Senate votes on, The House, puts forth a budget that stops feeding poor children, strips money from planned parenthood and takes even more tax revenue out of circulation.

Seriously dude, there are 2 groups in our legislative branch of government, but just the one that's nominally controlled by the party you're told not to like is responsible?


He didn't know the House was where budgets originate. He read your post and still doesn't. It does not fit his narrative. He won't know the House is where budgets originate, as explicitly defined by the constitution, until Democrats control the House AND there is a budget issue he does not like. Then he'll know who to blame.
2012-05-07 11:05:26 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: Your entire political constituency is over-represented with bureaucrats, government employees, parasites, academics, perpetual students, and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy and protection. You have built relatively few businesses.

The people who are actually building businesses with voluntarily-paying customers do not think the same way.


Do you have any idea how many businesses have been spun off of inventions and R&D that was performed by "academics and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy?"

Do you have any clue how many businesses are completely dependent upon the parasites and governmental employees who bother to protect those businesses from being robbed and save those businesses from burning to the ground?

Have you ever imagined how many businesses could survive without the bureaucrats who funded building the roads and the highways?

Phinn: I'm a business litigator.


Of course you haven't. You don't live in the real world. You haven't done shiat with your life. When you die, you'll look back and see not a single actual accomplishment. You're a middleman, taking your chunk out from people who actually do things. You don't help produce goods, you don't make anything, invent anything or improve anything. You're a middleman between companies who do things and government bureaucracy. That's the kicker, I love that you chastise the government employees and bureaucracy and you're a farking officer of our court system. The irony is killing me here.
2012-05-07 10:56:55 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: someonelse: Why yes, it's totally plausible that every single small-to-medium-sized business owner has shared this information with you during the course of your dealings with them. Your claim is completely credible and in no way silly.

I'm a business litigator. It's my job to discuss their legal problems, and in the course of developing a legal strategy, to know what their projections and plans are.

All of the other commercial lawyers in my area say the same thing about what business owners are saying to them. So too all of the other people who provide similar services to businesses (and to each other), like accountants, financial advisers, lenders, and advertisers.

Believe me if you want. I don't care.

The fact is that you Leftists have totally missed what the owners of small-to-mid-sized businesses in America are saying and thinking. It comes as no surprise to me. The fact that you'd react to their perceptions and opinions with anger and resentment and argumentation is typical. Your entire political constituency is over-represented with bureaucrats, government employees, parasites, academics, perpetual students, and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy and protection. You have built relatively few businesses.

The people who are actually building businesses with voluntarily-paying customers do not think the same way.

Your blind spot in this area is also the reason you will continue to have no influence on anyone, and end up turning to the government to accomplish anything. You have no ability to cooperate with people, to work together, to earn someone else's voluntary cooperation. So, to get your way, you have to resort to brow-beating, attack and ultimately the regulator and tax collector.


You lost me at "Leftists" asshole. fark you. I'm an American you motherfarker.

I'm a taxpayer, a home owner, a veteran, a father and a voter.

fark you and your pathetically immature politically divisive labels.

fark you. Enjoy your farking revolution, because you will have earned it.
2012-05-07 10:45:33 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: ...They own all the businesses in three of the wealthiest counties in America....


Really? That doesn't sound right if your clients are all small to medium-size firms. At least some of the businesses in most of the top 20 wealthiest counties are large firms. I'm interested as to what three counties you are talking about. Studying such wealthy counties that have absolutely no large firms would be fascinating.
2012-05-07 10:44:16 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: Antimatter: So basically, you work with morons then? Ask them for the specific policies they think will hold them back. Ask them what they think the GOP would do for them, given the GOP's focus on mega-companies and billionaires.

Because honestly, Obama has been very good for business here. We tripled the size of the company, and started giving out performance bonuses.

What business is that? If you don't want to give specifics, please tell us what type of business you're talking about, what part of the country it's in and what its sources of revenue are.


We work with smaller and community banks providing various sorts of software and such. The regulatory pressure on the big banks, combined with stuff like TARP, OWS, etc, has driven many from the large banks to said smaller ones, and that's increasing demand for software like ours. We work nation wide.

The result has been a massive rise in the number of clients interested in us, which massively increased profits.

You see, no matter what the future is holding, it's best to make money now, rather then be an idiot and hold yourself back for some phantom fear that may never occur. That way, you have money in the bank for when you really need it, should a major change be required. It's hard to adapt if you don't have anything, so I expect many of your business friends will probably be out of a job soon, due to incompetence.
2012-05-07 10:42:27 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: And not a single one of them is so much as buying an extra paperclip until Obama is out of office.


So, it's really about revenge. And you're really not fooling anyone with your anecdote, if the demand is there then they will hire, since the middle class has been destroyed there is no demand and it will take a long time to get back to where we were. Obama is trying to fix that but thanks to friends like yours the deck is stacked against him. Your friends just want a President who they feel will suck their cocks and let them get away with whatever they want.
2012-05-07 10:38:21 AM
1 votes:

Polly Ester: D-Liver: Before rushing to say this is "Obama's Economy," Subtroll might want to read an essay by one of the two economists referenced in the article, which claims conservative fiscal policies are to blame.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Krugman is your partisan hack.
*checks link*
Yep.
The guy who said Bush's deficit spending would kill the economy, now claims Obama's greater deficit spending will save it.
This guy seems legit.


The point is that subby is referencing Krugman (one of the only "partisan hacks" to ever win the Nobel Prize in economics) as proof of Obama's failed economic policies, when in fact he's saying the exact opposite. As for what he said about Bush, herp your way on over to this link.
2012-05-07 10:36:04 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: They are waiting for Obama to be elected out of office.


Why yes, it's totally plausible that every single small-to-medium-sized business owner has shared this information with you during the course of your dealings with them. Your claim is completely credible and in no way silly.
2012-05-07 10:35:04 AM
1 votes:

Lord_Baull: This just in, Obama has been President since 2001, mandated top 1% tax breaks, started two Trillion dollar wars, and created 0 job growth between 2002 and 2008.

DAMN YOU FARTBONGO!!


scottystarnes.files.wordpress.com

We are Bushbama. We will add your distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile.
2012-05-07 10:18:02 AM
1 votes:

D-Liver: Before rushing to say this is "Obama's Economy," Subtroll might want to read an essay by one of the two economists referenced in the article, which claims conservative fiscal policies are to blame.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Krugman is your partisan hack.
*checks link*
Yep.
The guy who said Bush's deficit spending would kill the economy, now claims Obama's greater deficit spending will save it.
This guy seems legit.
2012-05-07 09:48:44 AM
1 votes:
Before rushing to say this is "Obama's Economy," Subtroll might want to read an essay by one of the two economists referenced in the article, which claims conservative fiscal policies are to blame.
2012-05-07 09:40:40 AM
1 votes:

hurdboy: Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 1) Reinstate Glass Steagall, along with letting the Consumer protections agency have some serious teeth.

First half of that, yes. Consumer protection, notsomuch.


I'm curious as to why you think CC Companies and lending institutions should be able to rape their consumers with impunity... cause that's what's been happening over the last ten years...


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 2) Have the Fed set a long term target inflation rate of 3-4% to encourage investment and get that two trillion companies are hoarding moving around the economy.

Will explode the deficit. The Bob Rubin model relies upon low interest rates, and essentially zero inflation.


Which is why I said it should be the long term inflation target (5-7 years from now), not the short term inflation. What happens is yes, the debt does go up, but the economy also gets a badly needed jumpstart by companies who now have an incentive to get that money moving and invested in the economy instead of sitting in long term investment bonds. If the economy is growing at a decent pace (especially combined with the Bush tax cuts being repealed), the debt no longer is as daunting. The US economy is a big ship so that makes it hard to steer, but once it gets moving, it really moves. The revenues from a healthy US economy will eat through that debt in no time. The 90's are a nice example of that.


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 3) Raise the Federal minimum wage. Seriously. $10 isn't going to put your small business under. If it will, you suck at business.

No. Someone working part-time doesn't need a "living wage." If you work full-time, and graduated high school (or earned a GED), there's no reason to be earning minimum wage. Really, there's not. Why is it an issue? Many labor organizations index their pay brackets to the Federal minimum. Raise the minimum wage, see all your members get raises. If you think that cute English major barista needs more cash, throw a five in the tip jar when you get your latte.


Except the vast majority of people are only part time because employers won't schedule them for 40 hours a week. I don't know when the last time was you tried applying for a job but it really isn't easy out there, especially for people with just GED's or high school diplomas. Most likely, they are earning minimum wage these days.

Setting aside the fact that your example of a part timer that's college educated and still without a "real job," it's more than likely that she's working at least two to three jobs just to keep her life on track as she's going to school or paying off her student loans/life type bills.

A living wage for the average citizen *is* a necessary function for a healthy economy and where it's at now is really not helping anyone. Also, I tip well because I'm not an asshole, not because I think the English Major Barista needs more cash. Actually, at the moment, I don't tip at all because I don't go out to buy my coffee because I can't find a job and haven't been able to for the last eight months. It SUCKS out there. I can't even get a minimum wage job to save my life and I have twelve years of "real job" experience as well as a high school diploma and some college. There are simply too many people for too few jobs available at the moment.


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 4) Repeal the Bush Tax Cuts. Seriously. Putting the top marginal tax rate back to 39.4% isn't going to bankrupt you.

They all expire 31 December. I'm okay with that. Even though my own taxes will go up (especially since the "marriage penalty" fix dies, too), I'm okay with that.


I too would like to believe this will happen, but we all saw what happened the last time they came up for expiration. The Republicans threw a temper tantrum and threatened to not allow ANYTHING come up for a vote (including a badly needed renewal of START and Unemployment benefits). I'm more hopeful this time around, but I've heard that song before and I'm not exactly hopeful for a positive outcome.


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 5) Scrap the Healthcare bill and get serious about doing single payer/Medicare for All.

Agree vehemently. The Democrats will never let it happen.


Hooray! We agree on things! Agreement Five!


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 6) Create a serious WPA style program putting a serious investment into infrastructure/high speed broadband across the US.

Much like high speed rail, broadband isn't viable across the entire country. Stupid physics.


??? How does physics prevent running fiber optic to major population centers, or even expanding capacity within cities like New York. I admit, my IT info knowledge is a bit antiquated, but even my small town 8000 feet above sea level in the middle of nowhere got 10+ Megabit cable speed, I don't see what's preventing it from happening in rural Wisconsin, or the Appalacians. Again, I'd love to be educated if there's a good reason for it.

As far as high speed rail is concerned, I agree. I've been promised a high speed train from LA to the Bay and Victorville to Las Vegas for the last twenty years and I've never seen anyone ever make any sort of progress on it. I still think we can do it though if we took the time, energy and effort to get it done. Emminent Domain is there for a reason.


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 7) Create an after high school higher education program that helps high schoolers get some form of higher education - whether it's from a traditional four year state school or a Trade School.

Higher Ed has two major problems:
1. Government Money
2. Lifetime tenure

Tuition inflation isn't because states are spending less money; it's because students can now take out loans that would have seemed unthinkable just ten years ago. Yes, much of that money is private. Yes, it's all insuraed by government.

Higher Ed's other big problem: for-profit Universities. Point-and-clickyour way to an MA.


I agree that higher education and student loans are nine hundred ways of farked up, but that doesn't mean the government shouldn't be involved with the education of its citizenry. The reason student tution inflation is so high is partly because of your points as well as Administration costs that raised fees and their salaries cause fark it, the loans the students took out for their education will pay for it.

Tuition problems aside, if we as a country are going to continue to progress into the next century, we need to have the tools for our citizens to learn the skills they need to compete. Despite what you may hear, America is a major exporter of high quality products, and it is still possible for us to catch up on the clean energy angle and change how we get our energy in this country. We can build all those things. Hell, we should be building them.

(And please don't bring up Solyndra, it's a tired talking point. Solyndra was a failed experiment in clean energy - which will always happen when a government invests in innovation. We blew up so many rockets on the launchpad before we were able to get to the moon. Failing is how we learn to get better)


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 8) Get the unions going again.

I've yet to hear a compelling reason to increase unionization, especially in a service-based economy. Perhaps you can make one?


I only really need one:

1) From 1948 - to the beginning of their decline in 1979, Unionized labor helped build the largest middle class in history. That in turn helped raise the quality of life for the average american more than any other policy in history. Unions provide security, and bargaining for when a corporation gets out of hand in how they treat their workers. I find it hard to believe there are people who are arguing to give MORE power to the upper echelons of corporations.

The biggest reason for me is this:

As union enrollment has fallen (I believe we're down to about 12% of workers today who are in a union), disparity in incomes between CEOs (and the 1% for that matter) has become untenable. From CEOs pay ratio to average worker: 40-1 in the 50's and 60's, we're up ten times that. Now the average CEO makes over 400-1. But you already knew that. I'm sure you rationalize that kind of disparity somehow. For me, I think the workers need to rebalance the scales. For the last ten years I've watched as friends lose their jobs as managers increase their bottom line and salaries. Productivity gains have not gone to workers. That's not just unfair, it's one of the root causes of this recession. Henry Ford figured this out a long time ago. If your workers have money to spend, they'll have money to buy your products. Whoever came up with supply side economics should be taken out into the alley and shot.


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 9) Repeal Citizens United and get the money out of politics.

You can't keep private money out of politics, regardless of the source -- corportions, organized labor, individual contributors, or straight out of a politican's personal coffers. It's just impossible. How to fix it? I don't know. But there is no "repealing" Citizens United.


I went into more detail above, I'll admit, this was a bit inartfully phrased.


Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 10) Renew Community (OK, I just threw that last one in there for me)

Some of us are trying. It's not easy, between hipster progressive derp, and Boomers (especially parents) telling us we need to retreat to the suburbs, form lots of babbies.

Someone needs to tune into NBC on Thursdays at 8 o'clock. You'll be glad you did. (And you'll help the American economy recover!)
2012-05-07 09:38:25 AM
1 votes:

heavymetal: Well according to reality President Obama's efforts to grow and stimulate the economy is working; but the austerity measures being championed by the Republicans in Congress and on the state/local level are what is slowing the recovery down.


A more suspicious person than I might suspect a coordinated effort to deliberately sabotage any recovery in order to increase electoral chances in the next election.
DGS [TotalFark]
2012-05-07 09:38:18 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: Philip Francis Queeg: What a steaming load of utter horseshiat. Does it worry you that the only people who use your services are complete morons?

They own all the businesses in three of the wealthiest counties in America.

They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

And not a single one of them is so much as buying an extra paperclip until Obama is out of office.

But, hey, try some of your amazing rhetorical skillz on all of the entrepreneurs in America -- tell them how the business acumen they've built up over a lifetime is "horseshiat," and how their anti-Obama holding-pattern business strategy means they are "morons."

I'm sure that will fix the economy. That sort of rhetoric has worked miracles already, after all.

Or, you can go pound sand in impotent rage. Be sure to save your tears of frustration for me later.


Let me guess, anything over 0.001% tax rate is a rip off.
2012-05-07 09:26:34 AM
1 votes:
Born in 1978, graduated college in 2001 so I basically joined the workforce just in time for all this. So, not really getting a kick....
2012-05-07 09:18:14 AM
1 votes:

Phinn: They are waiting because they cannot trust Obama. They do not know what new changes in taxes, lending, or employment rules he'll try to implement next. Obama has killed all of the economic growth that would have otherwise occurred. He killed it with his agenda and his rhetoric.


What a steaming load of utter horseshiat. Does it worry you that the only people who use your services are complete morons?
2012-05-07 08:53:01 AM
1 votes:

hurdboy: Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 3) Raise the Federal minimum wage. Seriously. $10 isn't going to put your small business under. If it will, you suck at business.

No. Someone working part-time doesn't need a "living wage." If you work full-time, and graduated high school (or earned a GED), there's no reason to be earning minimum wage. Really, there's not. Why is it an issue? Many labor organizations index their pay brackets to the Federal minimum. Raise the minimum wage, see all your members get raises. If you think that cute English major barista needs more cash, throw a five in the tip jar when you get your latte.


Hey what a great plan. I bet you'd be happy to see your employer cut your pay and put a tip- jar on your desk. You don't need a living wage anymore than that barista does, right?
2012-05-07 08:07:29 AM
1 votes:

andrewagill: Well, I blame Clinton.

No, seriously, I blame Clinton. Well, Bush and Clinton.


NOBODY expects the Lost Decade! Our chief weapon is tax cuts... tax cuts and deregulation...deregulation and tax cuts.... Our two weapons are deregulation and tax cuts...and ruthless austerity.... Our *three* weapons are deregulation, tax cuts, and ruthless austerity...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Chicago school of economics.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as deregulation, tax cuts.... I'll come in again.
2012-05-07 07:57:43 AM
1 votes:

andrewagill: A lot of this was the dotcom bubble and other internal US policies, which may not be Clinton's fault solely, but the Clinton administration, Congress and the Fed are pretty much the groups to blame for much of it.


Not just the dotcom bubble, but the property values bubble is what truly screwed us over. As people saw their property values rise, way too many took out loan after loan on the inflated value of their homes. They spent this borrowed money freely on consumer goods, which gave the illusion in 2002 and 2003 of a better economy than there really was. When home values started to collapse, all those loans went bad. Trillions disappeared. We are still trying to come to grips with that. Basically, in the early 2000s, people borrowed trillions from the future and refused to give it back. It's amazing we are not in worse shape than we are.
2012-05-07 07:48:04 AM
1 votes:
No, that "lost decade" started in 2001, when Dubya really started to effect the country.

Keep trying to pin this on Obama, who's been trying to clean up the mess that Bush-Cheney have made, while the republicans keep stealing the housekeeping cart, Subbo.
2012-05-07 07:47:57 AM
1 votes:
Part of me wants Romney to win, and have the Democrats let him push his agenda for the next four years. Let them show how their agenda will "help" the country without the Dems to blame, and then crush them in 2016.

/unfortunately, we've proven to be fairly immune to evidence.
2012-05-07 07:37:46 AM
1 votes:
Ah, an "Obama Economy" thread.

This is where we learn that we're all broke, everything sucks and will never get better.

In an OWS thread, the same people will tell you that we're all rich and have no idea how good we have it.
2012-05-07 07:12:23 AM
1 votes:

EnviroDude: Another thread where the Obama defenders will rally around their Clueless in Chief. You can always tell because they try to vote the thread down.

Economy suxars and it's bush's fault? I'm sorry, when was the last annual fiscal budget voted for in the Senate? How many trillions have disappeared without any accounting?

Obama would have done better to give us taxpayers the money than the special interest Wall Street and foreign fat cats.


the world you live in is small and pathetic. I pity you.
2012-05-07 06:21:31 AM
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: I blame Bush.

No, seriously, I blame Bush


Well, I blame Clinton.

No, seriously, I blame Clinton. Well, Bush and Clinton. Clinton created the bubble, and Bush popped it. A competent president, unlike Bush, would have slowly deflated it.

I think Bush deserves more blame, but you wouldn't have read this far down had I simply agreed with the other dude.
2012-05-07 06:13:55 AM
1 votes:
You didn't have to be an economist to predict a lost decade.

But yeah, more tax cuts for the wealthiest, cut benefits to the poor while raising their taxes, and spend more on War. Should fix things right up. We'll have full employment and no debt in a week.
2012-05-07 05:49:06 AM
1 votes:
Presidents *propose* a budget, congress *votes* on it, and can make amendments. They can also draft and pass spending laws without presidential involvement.

The president at best has only indirect involvement with the health of the economy, and all of government combined still only has indirect control. We don't live in a country where the government can force businesses to expand, or move. They can't force people to save or invest. They can't force people to have x number or children, or to take "good" majors in college. They can incentivize all of these things, but incentives don't always work.
2012-05-07 05:14:45 AM
1 votes:

wademh: In the US it is popular to whine about the growing inequity between the rich and the poor but it's rather myopic.
Worldwide, there's been a redistribution of wealth from "middle-class" Americans to the rest of the world, China, India, Brazil and elsewhere. Yes, there's an imbalance in the ultrarich in the US but the pull comes from multiple directions and was inevitable.
Joe Average is simply no longer going to achieve the relatively luxurious lifestyle that US citizens enjoyed in the past.



Screw luxurious lifestyles.
How about being able to afford a place to live, decent food, and seeing a doctor once in awhile?
2012-05-07 05:00:30 AM
1 votes:
In the US it is popular to whine about the growing inequity between the rich and the poor but it's rather myopic.
Worldwide, there's been a redistribution of wealth from "middle-class" Americans to the rest of the world, China, India, Brazil and elsewhere. Yes, there's an imbalance in the ultrarich in the US but the pull comes from multiple directions and was inevitable.
Joe Average is simply no longer going to achieve the relatively luxurious lifestyle that US citizens enjoyed in the past.
2012-05-07 04:57:06 AM
1 votes:
No one can be this stupid and remember to breathe without the help of a recording constantly reminding them. Who actually believes this?

You know what? fark it. I'm voting Romney. I want to see it happen. I want to watch the unilateral regression of our society in every way. Let's burn it all down. I never wanted to live to 80 anyway. I'm betting in a few years the Stockholm syndrome will kick in and we'll think it was the greatest thing ever. Pfft, who needs things like the EPA or banking regulations, or currency worth anything, or women who aren't constantly pregnant? Let's give our saviors, the job creators, more tax cuts so that they can provide us with some small charity in the form of emergency food and shelter...so long as we agree to work for them in a multi-year contract for no wages.
2012-05-07 04:31:46 AM
1 votes:
Fark it, I'm almost okay with President Romney. Mainly because we don't deserve anyone better.
2012-05-07 01:56:01 AM
1 votes:
How did that image macro go? Something like "Make it impossible for them to clean up the mess. Then in four years we'll blame the mess on them."
2012-05-07 12:08:19 AM
1 votes:

Fark Me To Tears: BTW, subby... They could solve the high unemployment/sluggish growth problem by bringing back all the goddamned jobs that have been sent out of the country over the past decade or so.


No, they can't. That's socialism. People are supposed to lift themselves up by their bootstraps and work for their living, not have jobs handed to them. Blah blah blah.
2012-05-06 11:58:48 PM
1 votes:
BTW, subby... They could solve the high unemployment/sluggish growth problem by bringing back all the goddamned jobs that have been sent out of the country over the past decade or so.
2012-05-06 11:58:10 PM
1 votes:
From where i sit, things seem to be turning around under the Obama Administration and getting better. Yes. It's slow. But, it is improving.

You're going to need better lies and better liars if you want to make Obama look bad on the economy, Republicans. Good luck, though.
2012-05-06 11:41:07 PM
1 votes:
Both sides are bad, so cut taxes.
2012-05-06 10:11:10 PM
1 votes:
Taxbongo created zero jobs from 2013 to 2020. This is a fact.
2012-05-06 10:08:15 PM
1 votes:

chiett: It's ALL Bush's fault ..... La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La ....
(fingers in ears)


well..Clinton did his bit, then Bush certainly made issues worse. by tthe time it got around to Obama it was an avalanche in motion....lots of inertia behind that disaster, and plenty of people from both parties contributed to the disaster.

putting Glass-Steagal back in place wouldn't hurt.
2012-05-06 10:01:38 PM
1 votes:
This news story is in fact a repeat, as the exact same thing has been run at least once a month since January 21, 2009. I think it ran first on January 22, 2009.

I don't see deflation, I see government shedding jobs every month, and private employers adding jobs every month. By definition, this is NOT a version of Japan's lost decade.

But please, concern troll more about how it MIGHT suddenly shift into that. It is equally likely that happens as it is we have 9% growth next quarter.
 
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