karnal: CPennypacker


I bet they all live in Canada, which is why we don't know them.

Dude let it go hes a farking moron.



Oh oh - brought out the big guns....he's reverted to name calling.


/liberals are only tolerant of people with whom they agree.
//I didn't say Dims
///But I was thinking it

I gave you HURRRRRRRRRRRR and it's all you're getting dipshiat.

Phinn: Philip Francis Queeg: Yep, I'm sure that your claims are 100% based in reality and that all these extremely successful businesspeople you deal with are turning away business because of the evil man in the White House.

I bet they all live in Canada, which is why we don't know them.

Denial: check.
Anger: check.

I'm not saying that the entrepreneurs I deal with all day long are correct. I happen to think the difference between Republican and Democrat administrations is negligible.

But their perception, with perfect unanimity, is that Obama is the problem. They do not trust him. They are not making major business moves until he's out.

Their perception is the reality that you're not dealing with.

You just want to demonize them, or disbelieve me. Fine. Do what you like. But you're not accomplishing anything.

Guess what? Your brilliant and immensely successful Titans of Industry friends aren't accomplishing anything either.

This just in, Obama has been President since 2001, mandated top 1% tax breaks, started two Trillion dollar wars, and created 0 job growth between 2002 and 2008.

DAMN YOU FARTBONGO!!

Smackledorfer: ArcadianRefugee: TV's Vinnie: You auto-lose when you say the word "libs".

"Libs", "0bama", "Shrub", "Mittens".....

Seriously, if you farktards can't talk like adults, no one is going to listen to you in an adult conversation.

Yea, because calling people 'farking retards' is totally mature :P

Oh, very well. "Love-making people with special needs" then.

Because the last ten years were all sunshine and rainbows.

X-boxershorts: Obama said mean things and hurt their fee fees.

How many businesses do you run? How many have you started? How many people do you employ? What's the gross revenue passing through your businesses?

Considering the massive outpouring of OPINION about the economy and business and politics, I have to assume you are all a bunch of experts, with many combined decades of experience and success to show for it.

You're not just talking out of your ass or anything, right? You're not just a mouthy, insignificant peanut-gallery do-nothing bloviator, are you?

Ambivalence: Fark Me To Tears: BTW, subby... They could solve the high unemployment/sluggish growth problem by bringing back all the goddamned jobs that have been sent out of the country over the past decade or so.

No, they can't. That's socialism. People are supposed to lift themselves up by their bootstraps and work for their living, not have jobs handed to them. Blah blah blah.

That's racist.

Phinn: Philip Francis Queeg: Yep, I'm sure that your claims are 100% based in reality and that all these extremely successful businesspeople you deal with are turning away business because of the evil man in the White House.

I bet they all live in Canada, which is why we don't know them.

Denial: check.
Anger: check.

I'm not saying that the entrepreneurs I deal with all day long are correct. I happen to think the difference between Republican and Democrat administrations is negligible.

But their perception, with perfect unanimity, is that Obama is the problem. They do not trust him. They are not making major business moves until he's out.

Their perception is the reality that you're not dealing with.

You just want to demonize them, or disbelieve me. Fine. Do what you like. But you're not accomplishing anything.

So basically, you work with morons then? Ask them for the specific policies they think will hold them back. Ask them what they think the GOP would do for them, given the GOP's focus on mega-companies and billionaires.

Because honestly, Obama has been very good for business here. We tripled the size of the company, and started giving out performance bonuses.

Phinn: X-boxershorts: Obama said mean things and hurt their fee fees.

How many businesses do you run? How many have you started? How many people do you employ? What's the gross revenue passing through your businesses?

Considering the massive outpouring of OPINION about the economy and business and politics, I have to assume you are all a bunch of experts, with many combined decades of experience and success to show for it.

You're not just talking out of your ass or anything, right? You're not just a mouthy, insignificant peanut-gallery do-nothing bloviator, are you?

How many businesses do you run? How many have you started? How many people do you employ? What's the gross revenue passing through your businesses?

Considering the massive outpouring of OPINION about the economy and business and politics, I have to assume you are an expert, with many combined decades of experience and success to show for it.

You're not just talking out of your ass or anything, right? You're not just a mouthy, insignificant peanut-gallery do-nothing bloviator, are you?

Polly Ester:
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Krugman is your partisan hack.
*checks link*
Yep.
The guy who said Bush's deficit spending would kill the economy, now claims Obama's greater deficit spending will save it.
This guy seems legit.

Krugman was right then, and he's right now. That's the whole point of Keynesian economics.

But don't let a little thing like facts get in the way of your condescension.

King Something: Because the last ten years were all sunshine and rainbows.

I wish that just once we'd get moonshine and rainbows. I've never had Skittlebrau.


Taste the Rainbow.

Ghastly: Gosh who would have ever guessed in the 1980s that decades of cutting taxes, eliminating market stabilizing regulations, and flushing money down the military campaign toilet would have negative effects on the economy.

Maybe more tax cuts, bail outs, and less regulations will work this time. I mean, it's never worked before but eventually it's got to. Right?

"Shake the baby harder and it will stop crying" should be the GOP motto.

Mearen: Came for the "bbuuttt Bush" circle jerk. Leaving satisfied.

Been waiting on you to go from dark red annoying and worthless threadshiatting troll to ignored, leaving satisfied.

Philip Francis Queeg: Guess what? Your brilliant and immensely successful Titans of Industry friends aren't accomplishing anything either.

They have actual money on the line. All you have contributed is your purty mouth.

Romney, on the other hand would bring his "BUSINESS EXPERIENCE" to solve the problem. Here is how Romney's Bain experience would be used to fix the economy...

Step 1 (LBO phase): Take out huge loans to inject money into the economy.
Step 2 (reward investor phase): Take huge amounts of newly borrowed cash out of economy to reward the new leaders (tax cuts for the job creators)
Step 3 (streamline): Cut and outsource jobs everywhere possible.
Step 4 (wash hands): File for bankruptcy, bail on pension obligations.
Step 5 (rince, repeat): Look for next country to loot (China?)

Yup that sounds like exactly what we need. Lets make vulture capitalism national.

Antimatter: So basically, you work with morons then? Ask them for the specific policies they think will hold them back. Ask them what they think the GOP would do for them, given the GOP's focus on mega-companies and billionaires.

Because honestly, Obama has been very good for business here. We tripled the size of the company, and started giving out performance bonuses.

What business is that? If you don't want to give specifics, please tell us what type of business you're talking about, what part of the country it's in and what its sources of revenue are.

Phinn: Philip Francis Queeg: Guess what? Your brilliant and immensely successful Titans of Industry friends aren't accomplishing anything either.

They have actual money on the line. All you have contributed is your purty mouth.

I can only imagine how obsequious you are in their august presence.

Polly Ester: D-Liver: Before rushing to say this is "Obama's Economy," Subtroll might want to read an essay by one of the two economists referenced in the article, which claims conservative fiscal policies are to blame.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Krugman is your partisan hack.
*checks link*
Yep.
The guy who said Bush's deficit spending would kill the economy, now claims Obama's greater deficit spending will save it.
This guy seems legit.

The point is that subby is referencing Krugman (one of the only "partisan hacks" to ever win the Nobel Prize in economics) as proof of Obama's failed economic policies, when in fact he's saying the exact opposite. As for what he said about Bush, herp your way on over to this link.

Phinn: And not a single one of them is so much as buying an extra paperclip until Obama is out of office.

So, it's really about revenge. And you're really not fooling anyone with your anecdote, if the demand is there then they will hire, since the middle class has been destroyed there is no demand and it will take a long time to get back to where we were. Obama is trying to fix that but thanks to friends like yours the deck is stacked against him. Your friends just want a President who they feel will suck their cocks and let them get away with whatever they want.

Phinn: Antimatter: So basically, you work with morons then? Ask them for the specific policies they think will hold them back. Ask them what they think the GOP would do for them, given the GOP's focus on mega-companies and billionaires.

Because honestly, Obama has been very good for business here. We tripled the size of the company, and started giving out performance bonuses.

What business is that? If you don't want to give specifics, please tell us what type of business you're talking about, what part of the country it's in and what its sources of revenue are.

We work with smaller and community banks providing various sorts of software and such. The regulatory pressure on the big banks, combined with stuff like TARP, OWS, etc, has driven many from the large banks to said smaller ones, and that's increasing demand for software like ours. We work nation wide.

The result has been a massive rise in the number of clients interested in us, which massively increased profits.

You see, no matter what the future is holding, it's best to make money now, rather then be an idiot and hold yourself back for some phantom fear that may never occur. That way, you have money in the bank for when you really need it, should a major change be required. It's hard to adapt if you don't have anything, so I expect many of your business friends will probably be out of a job soon, due to incompetence.

Phinn: ...They own all the businesses in three of the wealthiest counties in America....

Really? That doesn't sound right if your clients are all small to medium-size firms. At least some of the businesses in most of the top 20 wealthiest counties are large firms. I'm interested as to what three counties you are talking about. Studying such wealthy counties that have absolutely no large firms would be fascinating.

hurdboy: I'm also not foolish enough to believe that letting only the top bracket revert would fix anything

Why does every minor change at the margin when it comes to taxation have to "fix" things all by itself?

We don't apply that to anything else: do you not throw any punches in a fight unless its a likely haymaker, or not make any advances in a war unless its going to be the opponent's waterloo?

Why would letting them all expire "fix anything"?

Knight of the Woeful Countenance: A living wage for the average citizen *is* a necessary function for a healthy economy

This should be undeniable by anyone. That doesn't mean you have to like minimum wage laws, but the majority of citizens pretty much have to be making enough to live. Otherwise they either die or live off of charity or the dole.

hurdboy: Philip Francis Queeg: Hey what a great plan. I bet you'd be happy to see your employer cut your pay and put a tip- jar on your desk. You don't need a living wage anymore than that barista does, right?

I have a degree that's good for something beyond slinging coffee, so, no. If I worked part-time, I would expect it. But, even, when I worked part-time, I had skills that made it possible for me to find something paying better than the Federal minimum.

I am shocked to discover that you believe that you are more deserving of a living wage than others. You are important.; You are valuable. You deserve food clothing and shelter. Not like the scum who serve you coffee. I bet it sickens you to think those people are paid at all. They should humbly serve people of your stature and importance out of the goodness of their hearts. They should tip you for the privilege of being in your presence and inspiring them with your personal awesomeness.

someonelse: Why yes, it's totally plausible that every single small-to-medium-sized business owner has shared this information with you during the course of your dealings with them. Your claim is completely credible and in no way silly.

I'm a business litigator. It's my job to discuss their legal problems, and in the course of developing a legal strategy, to know what their projections and plans are.

All of the other commercial lawyers in my area say the same thing about what business owners are saying to them. So too all of the other people who provide similar services to businesses (and to each other), like accountants, financial advisers, lenders, and advertisers.

Believe me if you want. I don't care.

The fact is that you Leftists have totally missed what the owners of small-to-mid-sized businesses in America are saying and thinking. It comes as no surprise to me. The fact that you'd react to their perceptions and opinions with anger and resentment and argumentation is typical. Your entire political constituency is over-represented with bureaucrats, government employees, parasites, academics, perpetual students, and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy and protection. You have built relatively few businesses.

The people who are actually building businesses with voluntarily-paying customers do not think the same way.

Your blind spot in this area is also the reason you will continue to have no influence on anyone, and end up turning to the government to accomplish anything. You have no ability to cooperate with people, to work together, to earn someone else's voluntary cooperation. So, to get your way, you have to resort to brow-beating, attack and ultimately the regulator and tax collector.

hurdboy: Knight of the Woeful Countenance: 1) Reinstate Glass Steagall, along with letting the Consumer protections agency have some serious teeth.

First half of that, yes. Consumer protection, notsomuch.


Above is the point where you slip from



to



so we can have some more of



\ 2/10 premature emasculation

X-boxershorts: Crunch61: WombatControl: There is one good side to that argument - if you hear someone say that Glass-Steagall caused the crisis, you know instantly that that person has no clue what they're talking about.

Lol, wrong. Without the repeal, none of what your links say happened could have happened. The banks just would not have been able fark up the securities market otherwise, your intentional ignorance aside.

Well, actually...seeing as the underlying cause of the financial crisis was a complete loss of faith in the value of certain securities and that such securities are traded in a completely non-regulated international market, I would be more inclined to blame the Commidities Futures Modernization Act of 1998 pushed by Phil Gramm in the Senate and his wife, Wendy Gramm, then head of the Commodities Futures Trade Commission.

Wendy would leave the CFTC shortly after that to sit on the bo9ard at Enron, which, in about 2 years time, would implode from the weight of several billion worth of off the books energy futures trading debt.

That was 2000, but yeah, definitely the #2 punch in allowing what subsequently transpired.

Fark Me To Tears: Bush got us into this tailspin... Obama has been fighting the Republicans in Congress to pull us out of it, without much success.

I can't believe people actually buy this narrative. I can almost see you shaking your fist at the army of Republicans thwarting every move Obama makes. It's actually refreshing. Blind partisan faith as the new religion.

/McCain probably wouldn't have done it better, but he damn sure would've done it more cheaply.

Yawn. You Teabaggers are sounding more and more pathetic by the day. Could you be any more desperate?

Phinn: They own all the businesses in three of the wealthiest counties in America.

They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves.

And not a single one of them is so much as buying an extra paperclip until Obama is out of office.

But, hey, try some of your amazing rhetorical skillz on all of the entrepreneurs in America -- tell them how the business acumen they've built up over a lifetime is "horseshiat," and how their anti-Obama holding-pattern business strategy means they are "morons."

Well at least you're honest and content with being owned.

What you've just described, to me, screams misuse of economic power and rent seeking. Historically people have only put up with that for so long.

Phinn: someonelse: Why yes, it's totally plausible that every single small-to-medium-sized business owner has shared this information with you during the course of your dealings with them. Your claim is completely credible and in no way silly.

I'm a business litigator. It's my job to discuss their legal problems, and in the course of developing a legal strategy, to know what their projections and plans are.

All of the other commercial lawyers in my area say the same thing about what business owners are saying to them. So too all of the other people who provide similar services to businesses (and to each other), like accountants, financial advisers, lenders, and advertisers.

Believe me if you want. I don't care.

The fact is that you Leftists have totally missed what the owners of small-to-mid-sized businesses in America are saying and thinking. It comes as no surprise to me. The fact that you'd react to their perceptions and opinions with anger and resentment and argumentation is typical. Your entire political constituency is over-represented with bureaucrats, government employees, parasites, academics, perpetual students, and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy and protection. You have built relatively few businesses.

The people who are actually building businesses with voluntarily-paying customers do not think the same way.

Your blind spot in this area is also the reason you will continue to have no influence on anyone, and end up turning to the government to accomplish anything. You have no ability to cooperate with people, to work together, to earn someone else's voluntary cooperation. So, to get your way, you have to resort to brow-beating, attack and ultimately the regulator and tax collector.

Your story is still anecdotal. In my business dealings (finance), I have seen the exact opposite of what you are saying. Smart business owners adjust to changing laws and regulations to work it to their advantage. Despite your claims that business owners are simply waiting and prepared to wait another 4 years, the public sector is growing.

chiett: It's ALL Bush's fault ..... La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La La ....
(fingers in ears)

Or, we could try something you apparently haven't thought of: not being retarded. Then we could point out that the meat of these problems really started back in the 1980s when serious and substantial pushes to deregulate large swaths of major industries took root in the modern era. Then we could point out that multiple administrations and congresses (on both sides of the aisle, but mostly with conservatives, whether "blue dogs" or republicans) enacted policies that enabled the megawealthy and huge corporations to siphon substantial amounts of income from the middle class through tax loopholes and generous handouts in the form of "subsidies".

Then we could move into the late 90s and the reckless abandonment of all reason on Wall Street, first with traders piling money into obviously bust ventures, then with Clinton and Congress and the Glass-Steagall clusterfark.

Then we move on to Bush who, while not the architect of the foundation of the collapse, is undoubtedly the guy who decided to knock the whole house of cards down. First, of course, he tore apart the balanced budget by giving huge handouts to the wealthy, ensuring that as the tech bubble collapsed it took government revenue with it, then by starting two wars on credit (one with no apparent justification or purpose), then by signing Plan D into law without any real price controls at all....

So, no, Bush isn't to blame for the whole thing. He had a good thirty years of shiat foundation built up before him. He just decided he'd be the one to push the whole thing over.

And I'd say "well, how could he have known, he was just doing his best", but who the fark doesn't know that starting two wars with unclear goals on credit while increasing spending and decreasing taxes is bad for the economy?

/ apparently a coked-up Texan meathead who should have just stayed in his daddy's pool drinking with his idiot frat buddies, that's who....

Phinn: Your entire political constituency is over-represented with bureaucrats, government employees, parasites, academics, perpetual students, and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy and protection. You have built relatively few businesses.

The people who are actually building businesses with voluntarily-paying customers do not think the same way.

Do you have any idea how many businesses have been spun off of inventions and R&D that was performed by "academics and the beneficiaries of direct governmental subsidy?"

Do you have any clue how many businesses are completely dependent upon the parasites and governmental employees who bother to protect those businesses from being robbed and save those businesses from burning to the ground?

Have you ever imagined how many businesses could survive without the bureaucrats who funded building the roads and the highways?

Phinn: I'm a business litigator.

Of course you haven't. You don't live in the real world. You haven't done shiat with your life. When you die, you'll look back and see not a single actual accomplishment. You're a middleman, taking your chunk out from people who actually do things. You don't help produce goods, you don't make anything, invent anything or improve anything. You're a middleman between companies who do things and government bureaucracy. That's the kicker, I love that you chastise the government employees and bureaucracy and you're a farking officer of our court system. The irony is killing me here.

Phinn: dddddddeeeeeeerrrrrrrrppppppppp

Lots of it, too.

ferretman: Obama already explained the reason for high employment (~8.1%/22.5%):

ATM's and self-checkout lanes. Technology is keeping people out of work.

//maybe it would help if the Democratically majority Senate would actually propose/attempt to past a budget; it's only been over 1,000 days since a budget was passed.
///but that's Bush's fault as well.

You seem to forget the little pile of crazies in the House. The ones who wanted the US to default on its debt.

Weaver95: NeedlesslyCanadian: Yep. The out-of-control spending and against-all-advice deregulation spearheaded by the last clown in office had nothing to do with it. Nothing at all. Obama is completely responsible in every way for the collapse that was well underway for at least 6 months before he sat in the big chair. Completely his fault.

6 months? our problems began with the repeal of Glass-Steagal.

Our problems began with Reagan.

Phinn: Philip Francis Queeg: Yep, I'm sure that your claims are 100% based in reality and that all these extremely successful businesspeople you deal with are turning away business because of the evil man in the White House.

I bet they all live in Canada, which is why we don't know them.

Denial: check.
Anger: check.

I'm not saying that the entrepreneurs I deal with all day long are correct. I happen to think the difference between Republican and Democrat administrations is negligible.

But their perception, with perfect unanimity, is that Obama is the problem. They do not trust him. They are not making major business moves until he's out.

Their perception is the reality that you're not dealing with.

You just want to demonize them, or disbelieve me. Fine. Do what you like. But you're not accomplishing anything.

However, demonizing Obama is perfectly sensible, and appropriate. After all, even though the issues that go us here span several administrations, the guy holding the ball gets the blame.

Unless he's your guy, or *any* other guy. Of course, once he gets the ball, then a Democrat will be found *somewhere* that's the One At Fault.

Antimatter: We work with smaller and community banks providing various sorts of software and such. The regulatory pressure on the big banks, combined with stuff like TARP, OWS, etc, has driven many from the large banks to said smaller ones, and that's increasing demand for software like ours. We work nation wide.

Thanks for the specifics.

I have a great deal of respect for the software industry. It's massive growth is the result of a relatively hands-off attitude that the government has taken. It moves too fast to be regulated. It's the closest thing to a free market there is. Making it in that line of work takes a lot of skill and good business sense.

The fact that your customers are banks is important. There are few businesses that are more heavily governmental (except maybe medical care nowadays). Predicting what's going to happen in that business is more a matter of predicting what the government is going to do, rather than what the market is going to do. I once saw a single change in an accounting regulation close dozens of lenders almost overnight. That was right before the FIRREA in 1989.

Which, not coincidentally, was the genesis of the Fannie-Freddie monstrosity as we know it, which precipitated the crisis we are experiencing today, which in turn instigated a slew of current and recent political disasters.