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(Denver Post)   Lawyer spends 11 years proving inmate's innocence. He offers to pay for her gender-reassignment surgery. "It was a very sweet gesture on his part," she said. "But he really needs to focus on taking care of himself first"   (denverpost.com ) divider line
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22150 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 May 2012 at 8:21 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-06 11:15:14 PM  

jenlen: WhyteRaven74: BigJake: it is, and as with many other things, the confusion exists only in your mind

You're the one who insists that DNA is a black and white issue, even though that's not actually how it works. But do keep trying, it's entertaining. Or something.

Sadly you are wasting your time on him, his mind is made up (in my opinion much like the Flat Earth people's!)

Kudos to the attorney and her fight for justice in this case. I hope she can get her surgery and live a happy and full life!


It isn't a total waste of time. Informing people that their ignorant, regressive opinions aren't fit for public display is a worthy endeavor. Lots of people still hate gays just for existing, but most know better than to go around spouting off about it where there could be social consequences. The transgendered still seem to be considered fair game for some reason.
 
2012-05-06 11:15:48 PM  
Over the years, working in both the media and in politics, I've learned one very important thing about human nature. When it comes to positions on social issues that could cause friction, people will time and again protest vehemently argue against a social issue in order to cover their own proclivities, disposition, and actual feelings if they think it's inconvenient for them to be honest or if they're just in denial. It's genuinely amazing how many social conservative, anti-homosexuality Republicans wind up coming out of the closet, for example

You're protesting way, way too hard on this particular matter, BigJake. Either you're just a troll (how ordinary) or else you're fighting so hard on this issue to try to keep some sort of personal skeleton in your closet. Especially on issues like this, most people don't give nearly the rat's ass that you seem to - unless it actually has some sort of direct bearing upon them.
 
2012-05-06 11:16:37 PM  
Caring about what gender someone wants to be is farking stupid. Mind your own business and go back to focusing on the things you identify with other people have no good reason to care about, like you should here.
 
2012-05-06 11:18:50 PM  

bakageta: On the positive side, no one has ever given me a hard time here, and if I can scrape the money together I should be filing for my official name change late this month.


Cool. But please, make sure it's a great name, like Pythonis, Ruler Of The Snake People. Or Dr. Pepper Heroin.
 
2012-05-06 11:21:49 PM  
Awww, what a nice story. Thanks subby.

Now, I want the movie.

I see Oscar, Johnny baby!

www.ambienceofmedia.com
 
2012-05-06 11:22:56 PM  

eldie: Our system needs to be changed so there's more rewards for getting at the truth in a case, rather than just getting convictions.


images1.wikia.nocookie.net

"It has been my observation that only the guilty make that kind of statement."
 
2012-05-06 11:23:12 PM  

penguin31: Over the years, working in both the media and in politics, I've learned one very important thing about human nature. When it comes to positions on social issues that could cause friction, people will time and again protest vehemently argue against a social issue in order to cover their own proclivities, disposition, and actual feelings if they think it's inconvenient for them to be honest or if they're just in denial. It's genuinely amazing how many social conservative, anti-homosexuality Republicans wind up coming out of the closet, for example

You're protesting way, way too hard on this particular matter, BigJake. Either you're just a troll (how ordinary) or else you're fighting so hard on this issue to try to keep some sort of personal skeleton in your closet. Especially on issues like this, most people don't give nearly the rat's ass that you seem to - unless it actually has some sort of direct bearing upon them.


I disagree. Sometimes people just love having someone they can identify as 'other' and rail against, to blame for all their problems.

/Some *are * doing it to hide things, though.
 
2012-05-06 11:23:19 PM  

penguin31: Over the years, working in both the media and in politics, I've learned one very important thing about human nature. When it comes to positions on social issues that could cause friction, people will time and again protest vehemently argue against a social issue in order to cover their own proclivities, disposition, and actual feelings if they think it's inconvenient for them to be honest or if they're just in denial. It's genuinely amazing how many social conservative, anti-homosexuality Republicans wind up coming out of the closet, for example

You're protesting way, way too hard on this particular matter, BigJake. Either you're just a troll (how ordinary) or else you're fighting so hard on this issue to try to keep some sort of personal skeleton in your closet. Especially on issues like this, most people don't give nearly the rat's ass that you seem to - unless it actually has some sort of direct bearing upon them.


Pre-emptive "Cool Story, bro"... but this reminds me of this guy I new in a particular online game (which is not important.) He was a Christian and while he was a really nice fellow and wasn't as much of a dick as some can be, he was vehemently against homosexuality and ESPECIALLY transexuality.

Then I come to find out before that, he had been a female character in that game for 4 years (longer than he'd had a male character) and was a bigger follower of the kama sutra than the bible.

...and then after being anti-gay Christian guy for a year, he brought his female character back and started farking around again.

// not really important but I think it's a fun story
/// he was actually a really nice guy
 
2012-05-06 11:25:53 PM  

Felgraf: Sometimes people just love having someone they can identify as 'other' and rail against, to blame for all their problems.


Ah yes. I did forget the "old man yells at cloud" types, though I tend to just view them as "trolls that aren't aware they're trolls".
 
2012-05-06 11:26:15 PM  

cman: I have an idea. Anyone want to set up a PayPal account and solicit donations for her sex reassignment surgery? She does deserve something this nice for what she did


No follow-up?
 
2012-05-06 11:29:39 PM  

orclover: She? Thats a dude.


My first thought involved a squint at the screen and a "which way is it trying to go?"
 
2012-05-06 11:41:03 PM  

Salt Lick Steady: Acharne: incomprehensible post

So if I understand you, you don't agree that Joffe should be called "she" because you had a closeted transvestite friend? And that Joffe's desire to be called "she" or "a woman" is changing the meaning of the English language, despite that she lives as a woman, dresses as a woman, etc.?

Tell me, should she get the surgery, would you still call her "Mr. Joffe"? Because English.


You assume my position. You're also being kind of a dick. No, I do not believe any of those things you assumed. I was drawing people to the point about different positions, essentially it is the difference of words that is preventing communication in this thread. I can relate to the frustrations of that while simultaneously loving and respecting my transgender friends and family. But, go on feeling people have to be 'With us' or 'Against us' or whatever it is you seem to have written into my post.
 
2012-05-06 11:45:44 PM  

ModernLuddite: ///It's offensive to me biologically.


I'm a biologist and it's not offensive to me. How do you know we don't have transgender animals? We'd never know. They can't tell us.

/My dog acts like a dude.
//No, JK. She's the biggest pansy around.
 
2012-05-06 11:47:11 PM  

penguin31: Over the years, working in both the media and in politics, I've learned one very important thing about human nature. When it comes to positions on social issues that could cause friction, people will time and again protest vehemently argue against a social issue in order to cover their own proclivities, disposition, and actual feelings if they think it's inconvenient for them to be honest or if they're just in denial. It's genuinely amazing how many social conservative, anti-homosexuality Republicans wind up coming out of the closet, for example

You're protesting way, way too hard on this particular matter, BigJake. Either you're just a troll (how ordinary) or else you're fighting so hard on this issue to try to keep some sort of personal skeleton in your closet. Especially on issues like this, most people don't give nearly the rat's ass that you seem to - unless it actually has some sort of direct bearing upon them.


In BigJake's case, I'm guessing it was that circle jerk at band camp that went horribly wrong.
 
2012-05-06 11:51:45 PM  

Repo Man:

It isn't a total waste of time. Informing people that their ignorant, regressive opinions aren't fit for public display is a worthy endeavor. Lots of people still hate gays just for existing, but most know better than to go around spouting off about it where there could be social consequences. The transgendered still seem to be considered fair game for some reason.


Well, I have to agree, maybe not a *total* waste of time... but as I get older I have less tolerance for bigots and homophobes and their ilk. I've had several TG friends over the years, and I feel for them enduring so much hate and loathing from various ignorant and/or hateful people.
 
2012-05-06 11:55:27 PM  

cryinoutloud: ModernLuddite: ///It's offensive to me biologically.

I'm a biologist and it's not offensive to me. How do you know we don't have transgender animals? We'd never know. They can't tell us.

/My dog acts like a dude.
//No, JK. She's the biggest pansy around.


My girl is definitely transgender. She pisses on the porch, sports a buzz cut, and always tries to play with the pussy.
 
2012-05-07 12:06:53 AM  
What a wonderful story! I find myself hoping book rights and a movie deal follow, if only because it would be something nice to take Grandma to see.

As I understood it, the convention of referring to transgendered and otherwise unusual people by the pronouns and titles appropriate to gender they have chosen to dress and present themselves as is an etiquette quirk going back to the late 1700s. It's why drag queens and other female impersonators always have feminine titles on playbills and have since forever. The rationale is that a truly polite person would never consider ANYTHING but how the person introduced him or herself and perhaps their attire as evidence of gender. Physical traits? What polite person even THINKS of such things?

It sounds crazy, I know, but some ostensibly feminine members of royal and noble houses have occasionally come out rather mannish, just as some apparently male people come off as more bishonen and swishy than six hours of shoujo anime. When the Queen Mother could, conceivably, be mistaken for a man, etiquette tends to take people's word for things. In that sense, manners are rather ahead of politics and most religions in that their main goal is to make everyone feel comfortable and respected.

/haven't y'all read any Judith Martin?
 
2012-05-07 12:07:11 AM  
I didn't bother reading the whole thread as I have a pretty good idea of where the typical participants will take things. My opinion though sometimes clarity has to overtake pc/empathy/emotion/however you want to view it. I would gladly refer to her as "she" in casual conversation but if I'm trying to impart context to a short headline I'd use the terminology most clear to the widest possible audience. That would likely involve removing the pronouns altogether but at least using a "he" to indicate the person's current biological state. Desiring to be clear does not make me a follower of Fred Phelps.

and before anyone knee-jerks to calling me a knuckle-dragger maybe you ought to get to know me. this is fark though, maybe I'd just be classified as self-hating gay.
 
2012-05-07 12:07:31 AM  

Queensowntalia: Much, much, nicer than calling her an "it."


I would never refer to someone as an it. If I didn't, I'd use "they." Improper English I know ("he" being the technically neutral term), but it's the closest thing we have to a genderless pronoun.

Queensowntalia: What does it hurt you to start thinking of said transsexuals as their gender of choice, though?


Because I know it not to be true.
 
2012-05-07 12:13:41 AM  

Acharne: Ses doigts jusqu'à ses oreilles.


Spanish is my (poorly spoken) second language, but isn't there a his in this as well? FEEL MY UMBRAGE SIR AND OR MADAM

penguin31: or else you're fighting so hard on this issue to try to keep some sort of personal skeleton in your closet.


Felgraf: Sometimes people just love having someone they can identify as 'other' and rail against


Oh goody the armchair psychyiatry dudes(?) have arrived
 
HBK
2012-05-07 12:14:03 AM  

SweetSilverBlues: HotWingAgenda: patternmatch: A closer analogy is if your friend Bob decided he wanted to change his name to Fred. He may start introducing himself as Fred to people before actually going to the courthouse to change his legal name. Would you insist on calling him Bob until he shows you a note from a judge? Or would you just call him Fred, because he gets to decide what his own name is?

I should clarify. I'm a grammar nazi, not a gender nazi. It is grammatically incorrect to refer to someone as something that they are not yet. This is about the physical state. He is not yet a she, so he is still he. A woman who wants to have kids is not automatically referred to as a mom until she gets pregnant. If I tell my friends I'm going to dye my hair blonde next Tuesday, it would be incorrect for the passersby on the street to refer to me as blonde today.

We have to live in the present-tense, as challenging as that may be for some people sometimes. I would love to be able to make people refer to me as a young man, just because I want to take a rejuvenation potion.

Internally they are the opposite gender. Just because the outside doesn't match the inside that does not devalue their self-identification.

So, living in the present tense, as it is so important to you, "she" is correct.

Just because the Rolex is in a Timex case, that doesn't make it any less of a Rolex.


No, it's the rolex's parts that make it a rolex. Is that what you were getting at?
 
2012-05-07 12:14:06 AM  

Jimmy_James: I didn't bother reading the whole thread as I have a pretty good idea of where the typical participants will take things. My opinion though sometimes clarity has to overtake pc/empathy/emotion/however you want to view it. I would gladly refer to her as "she" in casual conversation but if I'm trying to impart context to a short headline I'd use the terminology most clear to the widest possible audience. That would likely involve removing the pronouns altogether but at least using a "he" to indicate the person's current biological state. Desiring to be clear does not make me a follower of Fred Phelps.

and before anyone knee-jerks to calling me a knuckle-dragger maybe you ought to get to know me. this is fark though, maybe I'd just be classified as self-hating gay.


You're not a self-hating gay. I'm sure you're a lovely person. You logic and reasoning skills are just poor.

If you are appealing to a "wider audience", that "wider audience" is all going to have their own opinions. Some will say "he" and some will say "she." It must fall to one to decide what is correct and the logical choice as to who makes that decision is the person being addressed, not Jimmy_James because that's what he thinks about it.
 
2012-05-07 12:14:08 AM  

BigJake: Because I know it not to be true.


And you know it's not true based on what?
 
2012-05-07 12:14:17 AM  
*psychiatry
 
2012-05-07 12:15:01 AM  
Stop arguing about this and start posting pics of cute thai ladyboys instead, please.
 
2012-05-07 12:16:18 AM  

WhyteRaven74: And you know it's not true based on what?


BASED ON THE PARAMETERS OF THE HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION I WAS ASKED, YOU INSUFFERABLE TWAT?
 
2012-05-07 12:16:41 AM  

BigJake: Oh goody the armchair psychyiatry dudes(?) have arrived


You've been an armchair expert on the english language and biologist this whole thread. Attacking your own kind isn't sporting.
 
2012-05-07 12:18:00 AM  

Jimmy_James: I didn't bother reading the whole thread as I have a pretty good idea of where the typical participants will take things. My opinion though sometimes clarity has to overtake pc/empathy/emotion/however you want to view it. I would gladly refer to her as "she" in casual conversation but if I'm trying to impart context to a short headline I'd use the terminology most clear to the widest possible audience. That would likely involve removing the pronouns altogether but at least using a "he" to indicate the person's current biological state. Desiring to be clear does not make me a follower of Fred Phelps.

and before anyone knee-jerks to calling me a knuckle-dragger maybe you ought to get to know me. this is fark though, maybe I'd just be classified as self-hating gay.


Yeah, the issue is in the (likely intentional) ambiguity of the headline itself, which is probably why it got greenlit. First sentence speaks of "lawyer" and "inmate." Next switches to "he" and "her." Then into sex change. Pronouns probably should've been dropped for clarity's sake.

Desiring the headline to be clear has nothing to do, though, with whether the lawyer should be referred to by her gender identity, which is what this ridiculous thread devolved into.
 
2012-05-07 12:19:47 AM  
Not for nothing, but if my friend Bob decided that he wanted to be called Fred, I'd still call him Bob because that's how I know him. I think Bob is a wonderful state of identity. Even if Bob really really wanted to be a Fred, he really is just plain ol' Bob from the third grade. Someone asks me "Hey, how's Bob", I say "Bob is great". However, "have you seen Fred lately?" will get a confused stare. "Oooh, you mean Bob. Yeah, I saw Bob the other day". Sorry Bob, you'll always be Bob to me, like it or not.

/'scuse me, drinking.
 
2012-05-07 12:19:56 AM  

BigJake: Acharne: Ses doigts jusqu'à ses oreilles.

Spanish is my (poorly spoken) second language, but isn't there a his in this as well? FEEL MY UMBRAGE SIR AND OR MADAM

penguin31: or else you're fighting so hard on this issue to try to keep some sort of personal skeleton in your closet.

Felgraf: Sometimes people just love having someone they can identify as 'other' and rail against

Oh goody the armchair psychyiatry dudes(?) have arrived


French does betray gender by modifying verbs and adjectives as well as nouns though. So, not in that particular sentence no. What I typed is entirely ambiguous.
 
2012-05-07 12:20:23 AM  

BigJake: BASED ON THE PARAMETERS OF THE HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION I WAS ASKED, Y


That's not proof. You merely said it's not the case, you did not explain why it is not the case
 
2012-05-07 12:23:31 AM  

Acharne: French does betray gender by modifying verbs and adjectives as well as nouns though. So, not in that particular sentence no. What I typed is entirely ambiguous.


I could not have typed that more poorly. It it missing a statement to the effect of "But the sentence I wrote has ambiguous possessive pronoun 'ses' which could mean 'his' or 'hers'."
 
2012-05-07 12:24:05 AM  

RealAmericanHero: Jimmy_James: I didn't bother reading the whole thread as I have a pretty good idea of where the typical participants will take things. My opinion though sometimes clarity has to overtake pc/empathy/emotion/however you want to view it. I would gladly refer to her as "she" in casual conversation but if I'm trying to impart context to a short headline I'd use the terminology most clear to the widest possible audience. That would likely involve removing the pronouns altogether but at least using a "he" to indicate the person's current biological state. Desiring to be clear does not make me a follower of Fred Phelps.

and before anyone knee-jerks to calling me a knuckle-dragger maybe you ought to get to know me. this is fark though, maybe I'd just be classified as self-hating gay.

You're not a self-hating gay. I'm sure you're a lovely person. You logic and reasoning skills are just poor.

If you are appealing to a "wider audience", that "wider audience" is all going to have their own opinions. Some will say "he" and some will say "she." It must fall to one to decide what is correct and the logical choice as to who makes that decision is the person being addressed, not Jimmy_James because that's what he thinks about it.


To me personally "she" makes most sense for a pre-op TS but I'm part of a minority community that deals with such issues on a regular basis. I think the majority of the country would be confused (I know it's anecdotal here but we're seeing confusion) based upon the pronoun choice. Aunt Bea in flyover country doesn't think about gender identity and would likely take that headline to mean a woman is considering having a penis surgicly crafted. I was most confused about lawyer vesus client anyway so I think pulling the pronouns altogether would have been best. I'm not going to get offended if people play the percentages though and don't have malice in their hearts.
 
2012-05-07 12:24:05 AM  

WhyteRaven74: That's not proof. You merely said it's not the case, you did not explain why it is not the case


see previous reply
 
2012-05-07 12:26:16 AM  

WhyteRaven74: BigJake: Because I know it not to be true.

And you know it's not true based on what?


Dude, you know that general definition of insanity? You do the same thing over and over and over again and expect something different? FFS, he just used the "word" "psychyiatry." Stop engaging.
 
2012-05-07 12:28:14 AM  

Salt Lick Steady: psychyiatry


It's the practice of psychiatrists. And?
 
2012-05-07 12:31:14 AM  
FTA: "To Danyel's credit, she never came across as adversarial on this, which is different," said Mesa County Assistant District Attorney Rich Tuttle, who helped both to convict and to exonerate Dewey.

I guess it figures that the gears of justice got jammed over a case of mistaken identity.
 
2012-05-07 12:34:12 AM  

Isildur: FTA: "To Danyel's credit, she never came across as adversarial on this, which is different," said Mesa County Assistant District Attorney Rich Tuttle, who helped both to convict and to exonerate Dewey.

I guess it figures that the gears of justice got jammed over a case of mistaken identity.


No he was just motivated motivated motivated motivated.
 
2012-05-07 12:35:22 AM  
So just to get this straight: when a person believes in a Creator of all the well intertwined and relational physics in the Universe we here at Fark call them deluded dolts, heionous believers in invisible sky wizards...

BUUUT.... when Johnny who was born a real and DNA verifiable male decides he would rather be a female and begins emulating the social stereotypes of what one is (for that society) we are all asked to kindly play along in this facade of him believing he really might be a she in her mind?

In short it's good to be an Atheist because there is no God, you just can't prove that.

However, It's bad to be a gender denier when DNA proves the imagination of the individual has them believing otherwise and we should encourage them to permanantly mutilate their body to play the delution to it's fullest extent.

All I can say is that there must be a ton of people who took LSD or shrooms and became ok with certain forms of delusions while railing against select others.
 
2012-05-07 12:38:32 AM  

ModernLuddite: katefolsom: I was born a woman. I look like a woman. I've never had any surgery to make myself look more like a woman. I've never had a chromosome test, but I'm pretty damned sure that right down to my DNA, I'm a woman.

And if this lawyer is a woman, well, more power to her. Even if her chromosomes say something different. Even if she does look uncannily like Margo Martindale. It's not like she's declared herself a unicorn, a lampshade, or a demon goddess from Valhalla.

Haters gonna hate, but she's not hurting anyone, and she seems like a better human being than most of the trolls judging her on Fark.

But right down to her DNA, she's a man.

//It's not offensive to me socio- politically.
///It's offensive to me biologically.


You know how I know you don't understand biology?
 
2012-05-07 12:40:00 AM  

GT_bike: gender denier


But but but MY delusion is different and correct! You see, (bigot, hiding something, close minded, -phobe)
 
2012-05-07 12:48:45 AM  

BigJake: GT_bike: gender denier

But but but MY delusion is different and correct! You see, (bigot, hiding something, close minded, -phobe)


So do you have a problem with transgendered people? Just asking.
 
2012-05-07 12:50:49 AM  

CK2005: So do you have a problem with transgendered people? Just asking.


I have a problem with very few people, and the transgendered aren't among them. I have a problem with being asked, nay, being DEMANDED, to play along.
 
2012-05-07 12:51:09 AM  

Salt Lick Steady: motivated motivated motivated motivated


Huh. Kind of obscure (I had to google it to get it). I mean, the show wasn't obscure, and heaven help me, I watched it regularly as a kid, but I don't remember any of the secondary characters at all by now.

/a fact I'm pretty ok with
 
2012-05-07 12:52:57 AM  

BigJake: CK2005: So do you have a problem with transgendered people? Just asking.

I have a problem with very few people, and the transgendered aren't among them. I have a problem with being asked, nay, being DEMANDED, to play along.


So you think people get their penises cut off as part of a game?
 
2012-05-07 12:54:08 AM  

CK2005: So you think people get their penises cut off as part of a game?


Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Great point
 
2012-05-07 12:55:36 AM  

BigJake: CK2005: So you think people get their penises cut off as part of a game?

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Great point


If not that then what? You're saying they're delusional? I'm trying to understand your position.
 
2012-05-07 12:56:31 AM  

CK2005: You're saying they're delusional?


yyyyyyup
 
2012-05-07 12:57:20 AM  
So numerous people are getting gender reassignment surgery because they're all part of a delusion?
 
2012-05-07 12:57:53 AM  

gadian: Not for nothing, but if my friend Bob decided that he wanted to be called Fred, I'd still call him Bob because that's how I know him. I think Bob is a wonderful state of identity. Even if Bob really really wanted to be a Fred, he really is just plain ol' Bob from the third grade. Someone asks me "Hey, how's Bob", I say "Bob is great". However, "have you seen Fred lately?" will get a confused stare. "Oooh, you mean Bob. Yeah, I saw Bob the other day". Sorry Bob, you'll always be Bob to me, like it or not.

/'scuse me, drinking.


That makes you a douchebag, then. If Bob was Fred all along, and you refuse to acknowledge the identity that makes him happy, Fred should drop you because you're a sh*tty friend.
 
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