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(Denver Post)   Lawyer spends 11 years proving inmate's innocence. He offers to pay for her gender-reassignment surgery. "It was a very sweet gesture on his part," she said. "But he really needs to focus on taking care of himself first"   (denverpost.com) divider line 322
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22125 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 May 2012 at 8:21 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-06 09:08:32 PM  

katefolsom: I was born a woman. I look like a woman. I've never had any surgery to make myself look more like a woman. I've never had a chromosome test, but I'm pretty damned sure that right down to my DNA, I'm a woman.

And if this lawyer is a woman, well, more power to her. Even if her chromosomes say something different. Even if she does look uncannily like Margo Martindale. It's not like she's declared herself a unicorn, a lampshade, or a demon goddess from Valhalla.

Haters gonna hate, but she's not hurting anyone, and she seems like a better human being than most of the trolls judging her on Fark.


But right down to her DNA, she's a man.

//It's not offensive to me socio- politically.
///It's offensive to me biologically.
 
2012-05-06 09:09:01 PM  

BigJake: It is in that they all contain equal measures of truth


No, they don't.
 
2012-05-06 09:09:56 PM  

BigJake: katefolsom: It's not like she's declared herself a unicorn, a lampshade, or a demon goddess from Valhalla.

It is in that they all contain equal measures of truth


Damn straight, brother! We need to get back to reason in the country; the good old days when women were women, gas was a dollar a gallon, Reagan was President, and priests could touch little boys without people getting up in their business!
 
2012-05-06 09:11:07 PM  

WhyteRaven74: No, they don't.


They do in that they're both wrong. I suppose they don't in that men and women are both human beings, and unicorns are not, so calling him a unicorn would be more wrong.
 
2012-05-06 09:11:15 PM  

DashFieldpaint: patternmatch: HotWingAgenda: His gender reassignment, or her gender reassignment? It would be "her" gender reassignment if the dude became a woman, and then wanted to go back.

Transgender people typically use the pronouns of their identified gender, regardless of whether any surgery has been (or will be) performed. So in this case, "her" is correct.

"She" has a schlong. Having a schlong defines her as male. Unless "she" wants to be pancakes. Then "she" can be "pancakes." With a side of sausage.


FTFY
 
2012-05-06 09:11:23 PM  

xebeche_tzu: Let me get this straight. If I have a penis, and I pronounce that I am female, the PC thing to do is begin referring to me as "she" and "her"? No wonder Jethro Bodine goes to so may Fox News Tea Party rallies. You liberals are scary sometimes.


shot in the dark: likes missionary position, Wonder bread, whole milk.

"..But he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke
The same cigarettes as me
I can't get no, oh no no no
Hey hey hey, that's what I say.."
 
2012-05-06 09:11:48 PM  

xebeche_tzu: Let me get this straight. If I have a penis, and I pronounce that I am female, the PC thing to do is begin referring to me as "she" and "her"? No wonder Jethro Bodine goes to so may Fox News Tea Party rallies. You liberals are scary sometimes.


From your bio: I just don't get it. My favorite thing about being alive is the chance to do good work and treat people well. I like to put strangers at ease, make my friends laugh, and my lovers come

You're right, you don't get it. And treating people well certainly isn't your favorite thing about being alive.
 
2012-05-06 09:12:09 PM  

BigJake: They do in that they're both wrong


No they're not.
 
2012-05-06 09:13:01 PM  

ModernLuddite: But right down to her DNA, she's a man.

//It's not offensive to me socio- politically.
///It's offensive to me biologically.


Biologically, do you believe the bodies of men and women are exactly the same, save for genetalia? React to things like, say, hormones in exactly the same fashion? That there is no biological difference, mentally?
 
2012-05-06 09:13:17 PM  

WhyteRaven74: No they're not.


Yes they are.
 
2012-05-06 09:13:36 PM  
This is the thread where the willfully ignorant are having their narrow worldviews shot down?

/www.popcorn-song.com
//great find, Subs
 
2012-05-06 09:15:21 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: This is the thread where the willfully ignorant are having their narrow worldviews shot down?

/[www.popcorn-song.com image 320x283]
//great find, Subs


Yup. WhyteRaven will post post post anyway, guaranteed
 
2012-05-06 09:15:51 PM  
Some of you little boys never get over having a penis. If having a penis is the filter that you see the world through and the touchstone by which you judge everything, then someone not wanting to have a penis scares the shiat out of you because it falls beyond your yardstick. Meanwhile the rest of us grow up and 'Do unto others...'.
If a dick is the only metric for manhood then your are no more manly than Liberace, Rue Paul, or Paul Linde. Cool macho club you got there, can't wait to see your secret handshake.
 
2012-05-06 09:16:40 PM  

WhyteRaven74: you have must have some serious calluses on your knuckles from dragging them on the ground all the time.


I don't have a problem with it socially, but linguistically it is a conundrum. By this new rule, since third person pronouns are gender specific, I now have to dialogue with a person before referring to them. I mean, someone walks into the bar with gaudy getup, now I have to get up, go over, and ask them, "You're the sex that matches your genitalia, right?" Before I can safely return to my table and pronounce "HE is clearly a douchebag." So much work.
 
2012-05-06 09:16:41 PM  

patternmatch: A closer analogy is if your friend Bob decided he wanted to change his name to Fred. He may start introducing himself as Fred to people before actually going to the courthouse to change his legal name. Would you insist on calling him Bob until he shows you a note from a judge? Or would you just call him Fred, because he gets to decide what his own name is?


I should clarify. I'm a grammar nazi, not a gender nazi. It is grammatically incorrect to refer to someone as something that they are not yet. This is about the physical state. He is not yet a she, so he is still he. A woman who wants to have kids is not automatically referred to as a mom until she gets pregnant. If I tell my friends I'm going to dye my hair blonde next Tuesday, it would be incorrect for the passersby on the street to refer to me as blonde today.

We have to live in the present-tense, as challenging as that may be for some people sometimes. I would love to be able to make people refer to me as a young man, just because I want to take a rejuvenation potion.
 
2012-05-06 09:17:32 PM  
I've noticed that this never seems to bother biological women, but sure bugs the fark out of the tiny-penised dudebro morons. Why is that?
 
2012-05-06 09:18:15 PM  

ModernLuddite: ///It's offensive to me biologically.


DNA doesn't actually mean that much. There are women born women that have XY chromosomes. Also nature flat out doesn't give a damn. All clown fish are born male, all triggerfish are born female. Then there are alligators where gender is determined by incubation temperature. And that's just a few cases, nature is far more flexible about sex than people imagine it is.
 
2012-05-06 09:18:30 PM  
I have an idea. Anyone want to set up a PayPal account and solicit donations for her sex reassignment surgery? She does deserve something this nice for what she did
 
2012-05-06 09:18:38 PM  

ModernLuddite: ///It's offensive to me biologically.


You can take offense to things biologically? Is it some weird biologically-inclined slippery slope argument that will doom mankind? Is it the fear that societal acceptance of certain terms and definitions will lead to amoebas being granted full rights and citizenship? I mean, I do personally fear the overtaking of the world from our unicellular overlords, but I'm not sure this is what leads to it.
 
2012-05-06 09:19:50 PM  

BigJake: Yup. WhyteRaven will post post post anyway, guaranteed


I'm not the one with the narrow worldview..
 
2012-05-06 09:20:06 PM  
BigJake:

I'll ask you this, as well.

Biologically, do you believe the bodies of men and women are exactly the same, save for genetalia? React to things like, say, hormones in exactly the same fashion?

That there is no biological difference, mentally/in their brain structure? Their brains are exactly identical in every way?
 
2012-05-06 09:20:12 PM  

LeroyBourne: I'm pretty sure if a man starts identifying herself as a woman, and intends to go through with the surgery, it's just common courtesy to refer to them as 'her.'


I'm honestly torn on this gender awareness thing. I know a pre-op tranny, and I refer to it as a her, but at the same time, it's still a guy. It's still a guy that wants to be a lady.

And she is awesome, don't get me wrong. But she's still a dude. I think it's impolite to refuse to acknowledge that. That's why "trans" is the third gender. Because you have to acknowledge that the middle ground exists.
 
2012-05-06 09:20:35 PM  

howdoibegin: You're right, you don't get it. And treating people well certainly isn't your favorite thing about being alive.


Whoa. Did I attack you?
 
2012-05-06 09:22:10 PM  
Jesus christ, this is America. We are a free country. That means we can make radical life changes. If she wants to become a she that is her business.

/I just hope she will be kind enough to tell potential future suiters of her operation.
 
2012-05-06 09:23:42 PM  

Caelistis: orclover: She? Thats a dude.

And always will be.


Nope.

ModernLuddite: But right down to her DNA, she's a man.

//It's not offensive to me socio- politically.
///It's offensive to me biologically.


DNA and biology are actually a lot more complicated than that. And biologically, if she's suppressing her testosterone and taking estrogen, she's feminizing her body. We could do it to you too - although if we did and transformed you physically into a woman, it would feel like a horrendous violation of what you consider your gender to be, whereas for this woman, it will help match her physical body to her sense of self.

xebeche_tzu: Let me get this straight. If I have a penis, and I pronounce that I am female, the PC thing to do is begin referring to me as "she" and "her"?


No, it's not about being "politically correct". I don't give a rat's ass about political correctness. I care about being accurate and having a bare minimum of respect for people. If you were a trans woman I would use the right pronouns for you, because it's accurate, and the bare minimum of respect I owe you as a fellow human being is to recognize you for who you are.
 
2012-05-06 09:23:49 PM  

WhyteRaven74: DNA doesn't actually mean that much.


lmao

WhyteRaven74: There are women born women that have XY chromosomes.


this is EXCEEDINGLY rare

WhyteRaven74: All clown fish


Human beings aren't clown fish, or frogs, or triggerfish, etc... who can all change sexes because why? Because that capability is written into that DNA that doesn't mean much.

El Freak: 've noticed that this never seems to bother biological women, but sure bugs the fark out of the tiny-penised dudebro morons.


"A Parkland representative said the hospital received a complaint from a concerned female patient about a man in the women's restroom"

http://www.kplctv.com/story/18066672/transgender-ticketed-for-using-w o mens-restroom
 
2012-05-06 09:23:54 PM  

HotWingAgenda: patternmatch: A closer analogy is if your friend Bob decided he wanted to change his name to Fred. He may start introducing himself as Fred to people before actually going to the courthouse to change his legal name. Would you insist on calling him Bob until he shows you a note from a judge? Or would you just call him Fred, because he gets to decide what his own name is?

I should clarify. I'm a grammar nazi, not a gender nazi. It is grammatically incorrect to refer to someone as something that they are not yet. This is about the physical state. He is not yet a she, so he is still he. A woman who wants to have kids is not automatically referred to as a mom until she gets pregnant. If I tell my friends I'm going to dye my hair blonde next Tuesday, it would be incorrect for the passersby on the street to refer to me as blonde today.

We have to live in the present-tense, as challenging as that may be for some people sometimes. I would love to be able to make people refer to me as a young man, just because I want to take a rejuvenation potion.


Internally they are the opposite gender. Just because the outside doesn't match the inside that does not devalue their self-identification.

So, living in the present tense, as it is so important to you, "she" is correct.

Just because the Rolex is in a Timex case, that doesn't make it any less of a Rolex.
 
2012-05-06 09:25:05 PM  

ModernLuddite: ///It's offensive to me biologically.


Yeah, but if it doesn't effect you then you should just get over it.
 
2012-05-06 09:25:25 PM  

El Freak: I've noticed that this never seems to bother biological women, but sure bugs the fark out of the tiny-penised dudebro morons. Why is that?


I'd say it doesn't seem to bother nearly as many women. But there was that recent case where a transgender woman was beaten by a couple of women for using the women's restroom in a McDonald's. And some very hardline feminists seem to have an issue with them.
 
2012-05-06 09:26:12 PM  

ModernLuddite: //It's not offensive to me socio- politically.
///It's offensive to me biologically.


Well thank Christ we don't measure things by your biology, or crack whore parentage on your father's side would be common place.
 
2012-05-06 09:26:59 PM  

ModernLuddite: But right down to her DNA, she's a man.

//It's not offensive to me socio- politically.
///It's offensive to me biologically.


This is the difference between gender and sex.

DNA does not determine gender, it determines sex. So right down to her DNA, she is male. But in her brain (the hippocampus to be precise) she is a woman.

Sex is the equipment you're...well...equipped with. Gender is how you see yourself, how you self identify.

For a vast majority of people there is no difference between sex and gender, but for a very unfortunate minority, they do not match.
 
2012-05-06 09:27:17 PM  

Felgraf: Biologically, do you believe the bodies of men and women are exactly the same, save for genetalia? React to things like, say, hormones in exactly the same fashion?

That there is no biological difference, mentally/in their brain structure? Their brains are exactly identical in every way?


Certainly not after their male/female hormones have been acting on them for decades, as would be the case here. Also there's the pesky issue of the X chromosome.

bobbette: I care about being accurate and having a bare minimum of respect for people.


Then you'll refer to them as what they actually are and not indulge their fantasies, a.k.a. treat them like the adults they are.
 
2012-05-06 09:27:54 PM  

BigJake: this is EXCEEDINGLY rare


It's rare but hardly exceedingly rare

Because that capability is written into that DNA that doesn't mean much.

We aren't just our DNA. Also it's been found transgendered people have the brains of whatever gender they identify as, guess what causes that? Yep, DNA.
 
2012-05-06 09:28:26 PM  
I just hope she will be kind enough to tell potential future suiters of her operation.

Most in fact do .
 
2012-05-06 09:28:40 PM  

xebeche_tzu: Let me get this straight. If I have a penis, and I pronounce that I am female, the PC thing to do is begin referring to me as "she" and "her"? No wonder Jethro Bodine goes to so may Fox News Tea Party rallies. You liberals are scary sometimes.


What would you say is the appropriate response?
 
2012-05-06 09:29:03 PM  
Snark aside, I actually learned something in this thread. I have hung out with dozens of gays, bisexuals, and transvestites over the years...been clubbing, dancing, maybe one or two other things. This just never came up before. I had no idea.
 
2012-05-06 09:29:06 PM  

SweetSilverBlues: Internally they are the opposite gender.


Really? They have ovaries, a womb, fallopian tubes, a vagina, a much shorter urethra, Cowper's glands, etc.? Who knew!
 
2012-05-06 09:29:07 PM  
My favorite part about this entire thread is the people wasting their time trying to explain reason to those who don't get calling her "she".

Do you really think you can combat that much ignorance with a post on here? Give it up, let them go on about their happy, ignorant lives. I don't remember who said it, but to paraphrase: "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."
 
2012-05-06 09:29:07 PM  

xebeche_tzu: I mean, someone walks into the bar with gaudy getup, now I have to get up, go over, and ask them, "You're the sex that matches your genitalia, right?" Before I can safely return to my table and pronounce "HE is clearly a douchebag." So much work.


Actually, I think I can trust that I encounter this way more than you, and asking people what pronouns they prefer is pretty farking simple. And it's generally obvious when someone's gender presentation is in line with typical femininity or masculinity what pronouns you're meant to use. This sh*t really isn't rocket surgery.
 
2012-05-06 09:29:25 PM  

WhyteRaven74: DNA doesn't actually mean that much.


...an interesting sentiment in a thread about a person who was sentenced to prison and freed from it -- both based on DNA.

I'd think DNA-based identity is *very* relevant to TFA.
 
2012-05-06 09:30:30 PM  
The problem with our criminal justice system is that prosecutors are only rewarded for getting convictions, not at getting at the truth and finding the real perpetrator of a crime. Once someone is convicted, prosecutors have no incentive to further investigate the matter if evidence emerges that questions the guilt of a convicted person. Much easier to ignore additional evidence and let the possible innocent person to rot away in jail. What 's really good about this case is that it is a rarity that prosecutors and defense attorneys worked together to free who they believe is an innocent man. Read about so many other cases where prosecutors put up roadblocks for years to avoid reopening a case where a convicted person may in fact be innocent. Our system needs to be changed so there's more rewards for getting at the truth in a case, rather than just getting convictions. Thank goodness for the Innocence Project and this wonderful defense attorney. Nothing worse in life than to be innocent and locked away in a cell and no one is believing you.
 
2012-05-06 09:30:34 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Yep, DNA.


So it's important after all?
 
2012-05-06 09:31:07 PM  

bobbette: Actually, I think I can trust that I encounter this way more than you, and asking people what pronouns they prefer is pretty farking simple.


It's also safe to go with "it" -- equally offensive to both genders or the grey-area in between, so highly non-discriminatory.
 
2012-05-06 09:31:57 PM  

dj_swim: "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."


Good point. There may be no arguing with someone who has convinced themselves that calling a man "she" is not only appropriate but truthful
 
2012-05-06 09:32:55 PM  

BigJake: So it's important after all?


Not in the way you think it is. And unless you have access to some gene sequencing equipment, not in any way that's relevant to you.
 
2012-05-06 09:33:10 PM  
Oh, the trolls think that I wasn't referring to them?

www.wbo.org

/"nature" is not defined by what you are comfortable with
//get over it
 
2012-05-06 09:33:11 PM  
So if you see a city dweller with cowboy boots and a hat do you get all butt-hurt if he doesn't actually bust broncos and drive cattle for a living? If you're a homophobe or a racist or whatever just be man enough to admit it and stop hiding behind your silly semantic arguments.
Being genuinly polite is more important than being technically right.
 
2012-05-06 09:33:26 PM  

AcneVulgaris: xebeche_tzu: Let me get this straight. If I have a penis, and I pronounce that I am female, the PC thing to do is begin referring to me as "she" and "her"? No wonder Jethro Bodine goes to so may Fox News Tea Party rallies. You liberals are scary sometimes.

What would you say is the appropriate response?

Je suis Napoléon!

 
2012-05-06 09:34:51 PM  

BigJake: Certainly not after their male/female hormones have been acting on them for decades, as would be the case here. Also there's the pesky issue of the X chromosome.


Halright, but what about at birth? Are the brains exactly the same? Equipped to handle hormones the same? If we pumped testosterone into a baby girl from birth and suppressed her estrogen, would her brain handle it the same way as a normally developing boy? Or would there be mismatches and problems and body chemistry not working right with her brain?
 
2012-05-06 09:35:00 PM  

BigJake: There may be no arguing with someone who has convinced themselves that calling a man "she" is not only appropriate but truthful


It must suck to walk around so utterly afraid of anything that doesn't conform to every little binary worldview you've been told is the only possible order for things.
 
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