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(Daily Mail)   UN says the US must give back Mount Rushmore to the Indians as it is illegally occupied land that was stolen from the natives, as opposed the land where their HQ is   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 290
    More: Asinine, Mount Rushmore, Indian Affairs, U.S., Black Hills, per capita incomes, United Nations Special Rapporteur, indigenous land rights, Human Rights Council  
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16933 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 May 2012 at 2:24 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-06 04:18:25 AM

bojon: They should endeavor to persevere.


came to say this. thanks for the laugh.
 
2012-05-06 04:21:09 AM
Being of Welsh descent, I demand that England grant independence to Wales.
 
2012-05-06 04:25:31 AM
It's funny. Several of the tongue in cheek European "Give us back our land" complaints would probably help quite a bit.

/culture, it seems, has a long memory
//people have always been dicks
 
2012-05-06 04:26:23 AM

teto85: As a descendant of Celts I demand the French surrender Brittany and Normandy to me and my family.


Sorry. We Nordskis have dibs on Normandy. The French crown gave it to us.

/Speaking as someone of half Nordski descent.
 
2012-05-06 04:30:11 AM

NephilimNexus: But then why stop with Mt.Rushmore? Why not make the claim to give the entire country back? I made my high school history blow a fuse after he gave lecture on how the Soviet annexation of the Baltic states we're illegal because they weren't recognized by the United Nations, when I asked him how many of the "treaties" handing everything over from the Indians to the US Government were ratified by the UN.

I'm sure this thread will soon be packed with numerous examples of countries being stolen over history, all claims more or less ending up equally valid or invalid, depending on which stance you want to take. But the point is that they're all equally valid or invalid. You don't get to pick & choose the one's that just happen to benefit you the most and then vilify all the others as being "immoral." Either conquest/annexation/assimilation/whatever you want to call it is okay for everyone and we can drop the issue, or it's not okay for everyone and we can start going through the history books and reshuffling all the maps back to the way they were in... oh crap, now we've brought dates into it. What date are settling on, guys? Are we splitting up Britain into England & Scotland? Are we splitting Wales off from England? Are we giving Portugal back to Spain? Giving Bangladesh & Pakistan back to India? Breaking Manchuria off from China? Splitting Vietnam back in two? Turning Germany back into the Holy Roman Empire? Selling Alaska back to Russia? Giving Texas back to Mexico (they once owned?

Maybe some people want to open this can of worms, but frankly I'd rather just move on and think about the future, not the past. What's done is done. We can't spend our lives trying to fix the mistakes of the past. We can only promise ouorselves not to repeat them again.


That promise won't hold. It's already been codified as "eminent domain".

Okay, so I'm slightly kidding, but the point stands. This is a long standing problem, and will likely continue to be one.
 
2012-05-06 04:36:29 AM
Something something... flag.
img171.imageshack.us
 
2012-05-06 04:39:00 AM

Korzine: Eh, the Indians get treated a lot better than a lot of other losers to the avarice of federal government expansion. Just look at how the union treated the south after subjugating them in the war of northern aggression.


You mean how the government treated a bunch of treasonous pieces of shiat who should have been hanged in mass, thus saving us a whole lot of headaches later on with the likes of the kkk, civil rights violations, and other crimes against humanity? That south?

Yeah, sure.

/I know you are just trolling, because no one with a brain actually believes that crap.
 
2012-05-06 04:46:01 AM
If it's covered by a treaty, why not give it back? You don't want people to think the US is a country that doesn't keep its word, do you? Anyway, it's not as if the rightful owners would obliterate the work.
 
2012-05-06 04:47:22 AM
Pretty sure the Sioux stole it from the Crow or Blackfoot or some such, so...you know...finders keepers.
 
2012-05-06 04:49:28 AM
Couldn't we just stop treating Indians differently than all other US citizens, and then this wouldn't be a problem? I know my ancestors farked over their ancestors, but that's true for all sorts of groups, and there's no reason either side needs to keep repeating the same mistakes.
 
2012-05-06 04:51:22 AM
The Arikara arrived by 1500 AD, followed by the Cheyenne, Crow, Kiowa and Pawnee. The Lakota (also known as Sioux) arrived from Minnesota in the 18th century and drove out the other tribes, who moved west.[6] They claimed the land, which they called HeSapa (Black Mountains). The mountains commonly became known as the Black Hills. Next, the white man took it, just as the Sioux before them took it.
 
2012-05-06 04:51:56 AM
1) Why the heck would they want a monument or four dead white guys? I don't get it.

2) Sure hope we don't start getting Strongly Worded Lettertm spam


/mmm... spam
// "Isn't it strange how all those presidents died on holidays?" -- E. Bunker
/// "Sins of my fathers"?? Dude, my fathers hadn't even gotten on the boat yet when this happened (or slavery either, but that's a whole other issue)
 
2012-05-06 04:53:21 AM

mjg: 2. James Anaya is a pretty interesting guy. I know this is fark, but what he is working on is good stuff.


Good for him if that's true, but going for crap like this loses him credibility. Getting laughed out of the room doesn't help your cause much.

Notice the bit about how no senators or congressmen would meet with him? Wanna know why that is? It's because generally, they don't sit and talk to extremist nuts. If he had a workable solution, or at least something not completely boneheaded, he might have gotten past the junior staff level.

As somebody who works in that environment, the more specific, reasonable, and workable a proposal is, the more likely it is to go up the chain. Members of Congress and the President have staffs that are dedicated to insulating the principles from the common loons. If you call in as part of a phone drive to stop war, that stops at a pretty low level. If you call, the front office listens politely, logs it in a generic category (Oppose/Support [insert bill or issue here]) and you show up as a statistic if anybody cares enough to look. If you leave a voicemail, an intern listens to it, logs it, deletes it. Again, statistic. Your spiel about how the keystone pipeline is bad because somehow magic will work to make it uneconomical to bring that oil to market isn't going to change anybody's mind, it's going to stop at the most junior level, and likely irritate whoever's listening to it.

On the other hand, if you have a proposal to get an alternate energy efficiency standard adopted for the purposes of a specific statutory rule or regulation, that can go up the chain (written is better, and allow time for security screening and manual processing through a computer system) and, if it checks out, may get incorporated into a bill during a committee markup, or if you lobby the relevant agency, may get included in the next round of rulemaking.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that the dope who comes in insisting the US should give up the Black Hills and Mt. Rushmore is a lot less likely to be listened to than the guy saying maybe the US could offer some compensation, reform the reservation structure in X specific way, and whatever else. Same reason somebody saying we should eliminate the US Army to get world peace isn't going to get as much of an audience as the person who has a series of concrete proposals to lessen water tensions in Africa.
 
2012-05-06 04:53:33 AM

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Being of Welsh descent, I demand that England grant independence to Wales.


You never were an independent country, and never will be one. In fact in a real sense you currently have more self-rule than you ever had before. You are no more a country than yorkshire is. You were almost a country for 5 years in the 15th century, so there is that lol.
 
2012-05-06 05:08:24 AM
Lets sum up the history of our delaing with Native Americans.

We won, they lost. Winners get the spoils. Time to endany recognition of tribes, treaties, or obligations due to them in any other way other than American Citizens..and move along.
 
2012-05-06 05:19:13 AM

IronMdn: Well, being that it has been many many years since we have had armed conflicts with the native americans, and we have allowed them to enjoy our technological advances such as electricity and automobiles. I think that it may be time for them to get on board and become part of our society.

They want to hunt whales? Hey, not a problem! But you will be paddling that canoe out yourself and will be using the weapons of your ancestors. No .50 cal rifle and an outboard. You don't like? Tough. Why should you get to use modern technology to harvest game with little or no limits? You are native american but you lost the war. You are American now. Welcome aboard! You get to enjoy the same thing that the rest of the U.S. citizens enjoy. Be proud of your heritage and do everything you can to prosper. Just like every other American.

Back to enjoying some cold barley soup......

===================================================

Uhhh, you do realize that using the comparatively primitive tools of their ancestors is EXACTLY how the native northern tribes hunt whales today, right? Please, do yourself a favor and stop posting your ignorant drivvle in this thread post haste, least you make yourself out to seem like an even bigger jackass than you already have.
 
2012-05-06 05:20:57 AM

cuzsis: Weaver95: cman: Weaver95: cman: This whole situation is disheartening.

What is the right thing to do in this situation?

well...we could stop screwing over the native american indian tribes.

Should the sins of the father be placed upon the son?

I know, its not so simple. There is just no way for anyone to win this.

no, we're still screwing the indians out of money we owe 'em. the BIA is an incredibly corrupt organization that STILL can't account for a couple/few billion dollars that should have gone to the tribal councils. we really need to stop screwing over the native tribes. the way we've pissed all over 'em is a continuing disgrace.

I personally had about a $2,000 check from the US gov't (after some mismanagement of tribal funds and resources came to light) that was stolen out of the mail from me shortly after I turned 18.

By the time I learned about it, I was told "Too bad, statue of limitations has passed. Also, someone cashed your check already."

At no time, as $2,000 not been a lot of money to me.

/not a cool story
//but just pointing out, they're not all "sins of the father to the son" issues.
///I have now asked my mom to tell me any time we that are supposed to be receiving money through the mail, so I can check up on it.
//off rez


Must be nice to get free money from the government, I guess some people are treated more equal than others?

/Knows a First Nations girl who got into university with a 61% average.
//The average for the school is 86%.
///She's failing all her classes.
 
2012-05-06 05:23:29 AM

retrograde: The Sioux came from Minnesota. They stole that land from the Absoroka (Crow) nation in the 1820s. They have no greater "ancestral" claim than the United State does. Less in fact. We have occupied it for nearly three times longer than they did. Fark 'em.


So you're saying it's not really Sioux--just a cheap Sioux veneer.
 
2012-05-06 05:29:52 AM

incrdbil: Lets sum up the history of our delaing with Native Americans.

We won, they lost. Winners get the spoils. Time to endany recognition of tribes, treaties, or obligations due to them in any other way other than American Citizens..and move along.


You guys do realize that signed treaties ratified by the senate have the legal force of the constitution behind em right? You don't get to end them at whim any more than you get to end the bill of rights at whim.

Whether anyone, including me, gives a shiat what the UN has to say about it or not, the history of the Black Hills is pretty farked. There was a legally signed and ratified treaty that gave the Black Hills in perpetuity to the tribe that happened to be there at the time, in exchange for the US government acquiring a much much larger chunk of land that they perceived as much more valuable. Perpetuity, the treaty and the law lasted right up until someone figured out there was gold there. You can read up on the sequence of events that followed pretty easily if you want. The faces on Mount Rushmore were just the ultimate tragi-comic insult tacked on later.
 
2012-05-06 05:36:15 AM
The U.N. is worthless, the idea of sacred land is a genocide inspiring concept that has caused trouble throughout history, and as has been pointed out plenty in this thread the natives aren't special in being overrun and forced to assimilate. Maybe if all the world's problems were solved and we had world peace, could I be made to care about their fricking land being carved up and mined for gold.
 
2012-05-06 05:36:24 AM

cman: Weaver95: cman: This whole situation is disheartening.

What is the right thing to do in this situation?

well...we could stop screwing over the native american indian tribes.

Should the sins of the father be placed upon the son?

I know, its not so simple. There is just no way for anyone to win this.


Benevolent tyrant.
 
2012-05-06 05:42:57 AM
cptjeff
Still quite stupid, however. There's a reason the concept of a statute of limitations exists- modern society cannot account for every past wrong.

Right, people living in conditions of 70% unemployment will just "get over it".
 
2012-05-06 05:44:24 AM
Mt Rushmore is nothing more than the world's most epic teabag. Rip it off.
 
2012-05-06 05:47:36 AM

Rug Doctor: I'm wildly liberal, but once you're conquered, it's best to just accept it. This applies to Native Americans, the "South," WWII losers and everyone else. I'm not saying I approve of 100 percent of what has been done to you in the name of freedom. Just that once you're in a headlock, it's best to act as though you are the headlockee and not as if you are the headlocker.

You can punch them in the balls later, when they loosen their grip. But the solution is not to act hard when they can clearly pummel you at will.


"People should know when they are conquered". Maximus answers and says "Would you, would I?"

www.thegoddessblogs.com
 
2012-05-06 05:51:32 AM

stenciledb: The U.N. is worthless, the idea of sacred land is a genocide inspiring concept


You mean like how Europeans inflicted genocide on the existing residents of North America?

At least our forefathers did a good enough job of it that there arent many of the native`s left to put up much of a stink.

That is the secret of a good genocide: Really wipe the farkers out. Or as the Saxons said of the Britons: Leave no one behind you big enough to carry a sword.

If done right, all your ancestors have to worry about is occasionally `feeling sad` for wiping out an entire culture.
 
2012-05-06 05:57:40 AM

TV's Vinnie: And we send millions of our dollars to the UN for WHAT reason now?


Well, actually, You dont. The UN has politely been asking the US to please direct their attention to their overdue account to be taken care of at the earliest possible convenience.

Of course, I think the USA is right to deduct the costs of military actions taken on behalf of the UN off their tab.
 
xcv
2012-05-06 06:07:14 AM

RanDomino: cptjeff
Still quite stupid, however. There's a reason the concept of a statute of limitations exists- modern society cannot account for every past wrong.

Right, people living in conditions of 70% unemployment will just "get over it".


So get off the reservation and go to where the jobs are, they don't even have to cross any borders illegally.
 
2012-05-06 06:16:11 AM
As a farker who married a native whose band is in the middle of a land dispute with NY and WI, I am getting a kick out of these replies...
 
2012-05-06 06:22:04 AM

ransack.: What exactly is a "human official"?


I'm guessing some of the UN officials are aliens or robots.
 
mjg
2012-05-06 06:22:19 AM

cptjeff: mjg: 2. James Anaya is a pretty interesting guy. I know this is fark, but what he is working on is good stuff.

Good for him if that's true, but going for crap like this loses him credibility. Getting laughed out of the room doesn't help your cause much.

Notice the bit about how no senators or congressmen would meet with him? Wanna know why that is? It's because generally, they don't sit and talk to extremist nuts. If he had a workable solution, or at least something not completely boneheaded, he might have gotten past the junior staff level.

As somebody who works in that environment, the more specific, reasonable, and workable a proposal is, the more likely it is to go up the chain. Members of Congress and the President have staffs that are dedicated to insulating the principles from the common loons. If you call in as part of a phone drive to stop war, that stops at a pretty low level. If you call, the front office listens politely, logs it in a generic category (Oppose/Support [insert bill or issue here]) and you show up as a statistic if anybody cares enough to look. If you leave a voicemail, an intern listens to it, logs it, deletes it. Again, statistic. Your spiel about how the keystone pipeline is bad because somehow magic will work to make it uneconomical to bring that oil to market isn't going to change anybody's mind, it's going to stop at the most junior level, and likely irritate whoever's listening to it.

On the other hand, if you have a proposal to get an alternate energy efficiency standard adopted for the purposes of a specific statutory rule or regulation, that can go up the chain (written is better, and allow time for security screening and manual processing through a computer system) and, if it checks out, may get incorporated into a bill during a committee markup, or if you lobby the relevant agency, may get included in the next round of rulemaking.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that the dope who comes in insisting the US should giv ...




cptjeff. I agree with your points.

I don't speak for Anaya. But I think you are probably missing his intent with his comments. A couple of things. 1. In his position Anaya is illuminating the issue of indigenous/human rights not for policy change starting from him (he has no legal standing other than a rep in a UN body, which believe me is weak), but he is pointing out, dare I say, 'shaming' the UN Member State, confirming its legal obligations under the treaties the country has signed into international (which is US) law. It's a pretty common tool used at all levels. 2. Much of what Anaya is saying is what I mentioned in the first point (legal obligations), and also expanding the dialogue and possible legal application of the UDHR, and other issues such as sovereignty and jurisdiction of people(s).

Oh yes, I'm assuming he's not trying to curry favor with people on the Hill with these comments. (Anaya had to have known that coming in). US policies and laws are quite entrenched. But he simply wanted to get some time in the media, and got it. (The Daily Fail does spice things up. Check out the BBC take on the story)

Having worked in the environment between and within governments, such comments like this are a part of the dance. Par for the course. It's when actual law (obligations) is involved is when it gets interesting.
 
2012-05-06 06:40:34 AM
Wow, the racism is strong in this thread.

Mount Rushmore was a holy place long before the white man ever showed up, a sacred place used for ceremony and revered by the tribes living around it. It's been stolen, bloodied by genocide, and desecrated with the faces of men who lied, cheated, and thieved the people who worshiped at it.

Put into perspective, imagine invaders killed 95% of us then turned every church into their whorehouses.
 
2012-05-06 06:44:16 AM
meanwhile, in Freeperville:

img.thesun.co.uk
 
2012-05-06 06:58:43 AM
Can someone explain why Indians should get special 'indigenious' people protection in the eyes of the UN but people from Tibet, Irish, etc don't.
 
2012-05-06 07:01:52 AM
If you vote Ron Paul we can ditch the UN.


/justsayin
 
2012-05-06 07:05:38 AM

Paris1127: IlGreven: Cue the "We're about to give our sovereignty to the commies in the U.N.!" crazies...

Of course, they're professional crazies:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 450x593]

I can't find info on that document, but it just screams "JOHN BIRCHERS WROTE ME!!!!!"...


I remember first seeing it in the opening montage of the Oliver Stone film JFK, when they were establishing anti-Kennedy sentiment.

A GIS for "Kennedy treason poster" shows loads of hits for that image, bloggers reprinting it are saying it was distributed by the John Birch Society, but that's just some blogger for a source. It is also claimed that it was being distributed in '63, and was being passed around Dallas right before the assassination.

The GIS shows that Palin-American apparently updated it to the current Administration. 60 years later and they are serving up the same exact Derp.
 
2012-05-06 07:12:55 AM

KelvinTheClown: MacWizard: Coelacanth: Add a Native American face up there.

They're working on adding a Crazy Horse monument 17 miles away.

Link

You forgot the quotation marks around "working".

Link 2: Electric Wrath of Khan


Fair criticism. The last I had really heard about it was when the engineers got involved in 2009, which seemed like it might speed things along. Used up my quota of NYTimes free articles before the 18th of last month, so I had missed that update.
 
2012-05-06 07:14:32 AM

Pharque-it: JRoo: Why not give it to them?

Most white people are going to leave for space as soon as we get the technology anyway.

The Rapture?


No, Branson
 
2012-05-06 07:14:35 AM

asscorethethird: In reality the "Americans" have violated every single treaty with the native people. Our goal has been to destroy and marginalize every part of their being.

They deserve Mt. Rushmore, and a whole lot more. If we had a fair legal system that actually obeyed laws and treaty's we've entered into we would have to give a whole lot of the USA back to its rightful owners.


Theoretically, yes - but it will never happen, and would accomplish nothing if it did - the Native Americans are effectively extinct as peoples. Their nations are shattered, their cultures reduced to tourist attractions, their people interbred beyond genetic recognition.. There IS no way they can be made whole - as a nation, in regard to this matter, we have come to a place from which there IS no morally satisfactory path open to us.
This cannot be made right.
So the question is, where DO we go from here?
 
2012-05-06 07:19:27 AM

MacWizard: Crazy Horse monument


Sounds insensitive, like calling someone Spastic Dog. Hey, wanna go to the Spastic Dog monument? No. Maybe he was just misunderstood... Maybe he was just Angry Horse, or Upset Horse.
 
2012-05-06 07:21:27 AM

hbk72777: Pharque-it: JRoo: Why not give it to them?

Most white people are going to leave for space as soon as we get the technology anyway.

The Rapture?

No, Branson


Bronson?

www.dvdizzy.com
 
2012-05-06 07:22:53 AM

cman: This whole situation is disheartening.

What is the right thing to do in this situation?


The right thing to do is leave it the way it is. Land always changes hands . I'm sure they would think differently if we demanded all the land their respective nations ever stole were returned to the rightful owners.
 
2012-05-06 07:24:32 AM
The Indians already have this.

www.pbs.org

They need Mt. Rushmore, too?
 
2012-05-06 07:28:20 AM
media.comicvine.com

Approves.
 
2012-05-06 07:28:27 AM
They could give it to Snooki and she could rename it, "Mt. Smushmore".

/I_should_stop_posting
 
2012-05-06 07:31:28 AM
Doesn't it seem like a conflict of interest for a Native American man to tell the UN to give land back to the Native Americans?
 
2012-05-06 07:33:02 AM
The whole USA was taken from somebody or other. Might as well start handing it back in bits and pieces. Here you go Indians; a big chunk for you Mexico. Hawaii you're on your own now.

You can't right a wrong by going back in time. Ever heard the dumb suggestion to ship all people of color back to where they [ancestors] were enslaved. Ridiculousness right?

/Hmmm, we do like to "deport" 18-year old illegals who'eve never lived outside the US....
 
2012-05-06 07:38:49 AM
Dear UN,

Pack your shiat, GTFO and stay out. And no, you won't be getting any more American checks.

Sincerely,
US Citizen
 
2012-05-06 08:01:28 AM
the right thing to do is to give them the land back or to financially compensate them for it. Alaska did that and created native corporations to manage the funds to benefit the native people forever.

It was the honest and decent thing to do. Stolen property is stolen
 
2012-05-06 08:04:13 AM
lisarenee3505:

Well this concept seems to be working pretty well for Israel, regardless of the FACT that most of those who settled there when the Brit ...

Ugh, are you one of those nuts who buys into the whole Khazars-are-the-Ashkenazi nonsense?

(not so) CSB time:

Knew a guy who ran in the same circles I did who kept harassing me because I "look Jewish". Then he launched into his Khazars-are-the-Ashkenazi tirade, and would call me "Khazar" any time he saw me.

All that hatred is just going to burn you up inside.

/not Jewish
//gets it all the time
///I love watching antisemites get upset when you call them out on their bigotry
 
2012-05-06 08:04:38 AM

IronMdn: Well, being that it has been many many years since we have had armed conflicts with the native americans, and we have allowed them to enjoy our technological advances such as electricity and automobiles. I think that it may be time for them to get on board and become part of our society.

They want to hunt whales? Hey, not a problem! But you will be paddling that canoe out yourself and will be using the weapons of your ancestors. No .50 cal rifle and an outboard. You don't like? Tough. Why should you get to use modern technology to harvest game with little or no limits? You are native american but you lost the war. You are American now. Welcome aboard! You get to enjoy the same thing that the rest of the U.S. citizens enjoy. Be proud of your heritage and do everything you can to prosper. Just like every other American.

Back to enjoying some cold barley soup......


This.

Nothing annoys me more than them claiming the religious/cultural right to hunt whales, eagles, etc.


If it is that important do it with weapons that are part of your cultural created by means used in your culture.
 
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