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(Connecticut Post)   "Often, a patient will say to the chaplain, 'No thanks, I am an atheist,' and yet when given the opportunity, will be happy to talk for some time"   (ctpost.com) divider line 293
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9430 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 May 2012 at 9:00 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-06 12:28:35 AM

Spazmojack: Yes, it's skewed. Atheist just means no god. As in, not believing a god exists. I am one of them. I also don't believe that unicorns exist. However, in either case, if one presented itself before me, I would be forced to change my view.


There's a wacky chart that gets posted here sometimes here regarding this exact subject that I never fully understood. I'm surprised it hasn't surfaced yet.

But it makes the point that spirituality (or lack thereof) is most definitely not a black/white issue. My initial comments related to the perception of many theists that anyone who does not believe in a specific god is an atheist... which is obviously untrue. Then I prodded around that point a bit to express that there are (by my personal definition of a TRUE atheist) very few actual atheists around.

Glib? Perhaps. But I stand by the point I was trying to make.

Spazmojack: I'm sure there are people out there who believe what you think atheists believe, but that is not an accurate way to describe all atheists. That would be like saying an American is a white guy born in Texas who has a mustache. Probably, you could find someone to believe that defines an American, but it would be excessively exclusive and incorrect.


That is a total misrepresentation, poor understanding and poor analogy of what I was trying to express.

However I am mildly intoxicated and occupied with other stuff (YAY FOOD!) at the moment so perhaps I am not making my thoughts as clear as they could be.
 
2012-05-06 12:33:35 AM

Buffalo66: The chaplain blessed him in the name of Jesus.

I'm sure there are lots of very nice chaplains, but f**k that guy.




Makes me want to become a chaplain just to wander around laying hands on Christians and screaming "Molech demands your babies be barbequed on open coals to receive you into His Divine Presence" - I wonder how many I could off from shock - and how many would send off for the gandbabies to be slow-roasted just to cover their bases.
 
2012-05-06 12:34:40 AM

Dimensio: Then you are mistaken. Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. Acceptance of the possibility of deities is not itself belief in the existence of deities.


Then this point NEEDS to be put across more when discussing such concepts to theists instead of "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"

Because really... that is much of what the current militant atheism movement is doing these days.

I understand the anger however these topics need to be approached rationally and intelligently. No matter HOW derpfaced the "opposing" side may be.

Yanno?
 
2012-05-06 12:37:53 AM

here to help: Spazmojack: Yes, it's skewed. Atheist just means no god. As in, not believing a god exists. I am one of them. I also don't believe that unicorns exist. However, in either case, if one presented itself before me, I would be forced to change my view.

There's a wacky chart that gets posted here sometimes here regarding this exact subject that I never fully understood. I'm surprised it hasn't surfaced yet.

But it makes the point that spirituality (or lack thereof) is most definitely not a black/white issue. My initial comments related to the perception of many theists that anyone who does not believe in a specific god is an atheist... which is obviously untrue. Then I prodded around that point a bit to express that there are (by my personal definition of a TRUE atheist) very few actual atheists around.

Glib? Perhaps. But I stand by the point I was trying to make.

Spazmojack: I'm sure there are people out there who believe what you think atheists believe, but that is not an accurate way to describe all atheists. That would be like saying an American is a white guy born in Texas who has a mustache. Probably, you could find someone to believe that defines an American, but it would be excessively exclusive and incorrect.

That is a total misrepresentation, poor understanding and poor analogy of what I was trying to express.

However I am mildly intoxicated and occupied with other stuff (YAY FOOD!) at the moment so perhaps I am not making my thoughts as clear as they could be.


Ok, my Texan thing sucked. But I disagree that atheists must adhere to the "complete rejection of any possibility" aspect that you cited. I think that one can believe something to be true, but still acknowledge that it is possible that this belief could be wrong; I don't believe this diminishes the view or purity of the view. To deny that possibility is arrogant.
 
2012-05-06 12:44:42 AM

here to help: "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"


You get your side to put down the "DIE NON-JESUSBOY!! DIE! I DON'T NEED NO REASON - CAUSE GOD!!!" and we'll talk. But I'll be damned if I should unilaterally disarm to appease the group that made decided going out of their way to travel to entire hemispheres of the world to hunt down and murder anyone not like them. How bout you turn that cheek and pull some beams out of your eye, and then we might talk nice. Until then, a non-Christian (whether atheist or not) would be insane to back down - give a Christian an inch, they will burn your entire ethnic group.
 
2012-05-06 12:46:34 AM

phalamir: here to help: "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"

You get your side to put down the "DIE NON-JESUSBOY!! DIE! I DON'T NEED NO REASON - CAUSE GOD!!!" and we'll talk. But I'll be damned if I should unilaterally disarm to appease the group that made decided going out of their way to travel to entire hemispheres of the world to hunt down and murder anyone not like them. How bout you turn that cheek and pull some beams out of your eye, and then we might talk nice. Until then, a non-Christian (whether atheist or not) would be insane to back down - give a Christian an inch, they will burn your entire ethnic group.


STOP PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS!

Sheesh!

/carry on...
 
2012-05-06 12:46:40 AM

Spazmojack: Ok, my Texan thing sucked. But I disagree that atheists must adhere to the "complete rejection of any possibility" aspect that you cited. I think that one can believe something to be true, but still acknowledge that it is possible that this belief could be wrong; I don't believe this diminishes the view or purity of the view. To deny that possibility is arrogant.


Here's an interwebby thingamadoodle I just found to ponder.

Link

Haven't read the whole thing yet but it seems close to the concepts in the chart I was referring to earlier.

Now I eat.
 
2012-05-06 12:48:29 AM

phalamir: here to help: "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"

You get your side to put down the "DIE NON-JESUSBOY!! DIE! I DON'T NEED NO REASON - CAUSE GOD!!!" and we'll talk. But I'll be damned if I should unilaterally disarm to appease the group that made decided going out of their way to travel to entire hemispheres of the world to hunt down and murder anyone not like them. How bout you turn that cheek and pull some beams out of your eye, and then we might talk nice. Until then, a non-Christian (whether atheist or not) would be insane to back down - give a Christian an inch, they will burn your entire ethnic group.


I'm not religious. Not in the slightest.

I just don't claim to know the mysteries of the universe one way or the other.
 
2012-05-06 12:52:32 AM
I heard most atheists have 10 fingers and toes! Just like christians!
 
2012-05-06 12:53:29 AM
GilRuiz1: Boatmech: Why is your Religion any
more relevant than the countless other Religions
that are no longer practiced?
Ah, you got me! I thought you were going to be
serious. Fail for me.
Why Fail?
Is there something inherently wrong with my
question?
/like I said NO Snark/NO Trolling
`
Why do you 'Christians' have such a problem answering the simplest of questions?
 
2012-05-06 12:56:45 AM

here to help: Spazmojack: Ok, my Texan thing sucked. But I disagree that atheists must adhere to the "complete rejection of any possibility" aspect that you cited. I think that one can believe something to be true, but still acknowledge that it is possible that this belief could be wrong; I don't believe this diminishes the view or purity of the view. To deny that possibility is arrogant.

Here's an interwebby thingamadoodle I just found to ponder.

Link

Haven't read the whole thing yet but it seems close to the concepts in the chart I was referring to earlier.

Now I eat.


I am still not convinced that agnostic means what this website thinks it means. Its literal translation doesn't indicate that, and historical usage would indicate that it means something different from what this website claims. According to this definition, agnostic means "we can't know whether god exists or not." And gnostic means we can know. That's a ridiculous claim on both sides of it. All we can ascertain is whether we do know or we do not know, or perhaps whether we have doubt. How can anyone claim that it is possible or impossible to know? For that matter, how can anyone claim it is possible or impossible to know anything?
 
2012-05-06 12:57:57 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: I heard most atheists have 10 fingers and toes! Just like christians!


BUT THEY HAVE TEN BARBED PENISES!!!

even the girls.
 
2012-05-06 12:59:40 AM

here to help: I just don't claim to know the mysteries of the universe one way or the other.


I'm not sure you can define the mysteries of the universe, let alone decide whether or not you understand them. And claiming that there are mysteries beyond our understanding, however compelling it may seem, does not automatically open the door for that ill-defined (maybe undefinable) entity we call "God".
 
2012-05-06 01:02:36 AM

Spazmojack: I am still not convinced that agnostic means what this website thinks it means. Its literal translation doesn't indicate that, and historical usage would indicate that it means something different from what this website claims. According to this definition, agnostic means "we can't know whether god exists or not." And gnostic means we can know. That's a ridiculous claim on both sides of it. All we can ascertain is whether we do know or we do not know, or perhaps whether we have doubt. How can anyone claim that it is possible or impossible to know? For that matter, how can anyone claim it is possible or impossible to know anything?


I would personally rather see us all view faith (or lack thereof) in our own way without cramming ourselves into little mental boxes and/or judging those who aren't crammed into our specific box.

I mean those little boxes are hard to breathe in as it is and eventually someone's gonna let a fart rip.

That ain't good for no one.
 
2012-05-06 01:04:31 AM

whatshisname: I'm not sure you can define the mysteries of the universe, let alone decide whether or not you understand them.


And there's my point.
 
2012-05-06 01:18:28 AM

Brainsick: Dimensio: accelerus: So just because I might desire human interaction means I automatically have to believe in the sky wizard now?

If there was a god deserving of ANY form of worship I doubt he/she/it would allow the thousands of years of rape/murder/torture to continue here on earth.

And I don't care how hard you believe - there is no way you can put a positive spin on some 2 year old getting raped and killed telling me "its all part of his plan".

If you believe, as Mr. William Lane Craig does, that the child will enter heaven upon death, then the child is actually the recipient of an "infinite good" as a result of the termination of his or her life.

We should put all children to death before they can sin. It's for the 'infinite good'.


/It's the only way to save them!


Joking aside, if you believe that Jesus was a great teacher, but was not divine (as I do) and you're not sure if there is a 'god' (me, again, but I am sure there's no Yahweh/God watching and judging), then I would say you're an atheistic agnostic. Short version: I don't need Jesus to be divine for his teachings to be relevant to my life and (IMHO) the only true sin lies in doing harm willfully without cause.


You scoff, but the fact is, a lot of the Roman Catholic distaste for things like abortion have to do with fears of children dying before baptism could "save" them, and thus their souls being sent directly to Hell without any chance of redemption. It was this terrible paradox of a loving God committing innocent children to Hell for something they really had no control over that led the early Church to invent the doctrine of Limbo.

And on the flip side, if a baby is aborted and can't be "saved" then SOMEONE has to be to blame for killing it, amirite?
 
2012-05-06 01:24:58 AM

Gonad the Ballbarian: As an Atheistic Catholic I for one am grateful for the death-bed hedging provided.


Pascals wager
 
2012-05-06 01:38:49 AM

accelerus: So just because I might desire human interaction means I automatically have to believe in the sky wizard now?

If there was a god deserving of ANY form of worship I doubt he/she/it would allow the thousands of years of rape/murder/torture to continue here on earth.

And I don't care how hard you believe - there is no way you can put a positive spin on some 2 year old getting raped and killed telling me "its all part of his plan".


Hey! If that two year old didn't want it, he shouldn't have been slutting it up in those sexy Oshkosh B`Gosh overalls. He was just asking for it.
 
2012-05-06 02:18:28 AM

Elmo Jones: [quizilla.teennick.com image 640x426]
Boxes subby's ears


That episode where they're answering children's letters really annoys me. Father Mulcahy gets a letter asking what it's like to save a life. When he tries to pass it off to one of the surgeons, someone reminds him about the boozehound (literally) he got to kick the sauce.

What about the farkin' tracheotomy you performed??
 
2012-05-06 02:21:00 AM
Nothing they described would I call "spiritual." They're talking about psychological well-being, and yes, even atheists need it. Boy they just can't resist throwing god in there, can they?
 
2012-05-06 02:23:50 AM

Cake Hunter: A lot of chaplains are nice people and on-the-job trained therapists.


This.
 
2012-05-06 02:31:55 AM

Great Janitor: J. Frank Parnell: Now that atheism is so trendy in the west i've decided i'm a pantheist.

/you've probably never heard of it

I only believe that god exists in kitchen items.

/Frying Pantheist


hahaa. I practice Enemism, the belief that true spiritual transcendence can only be achieved during a high herbal colonic.
 
2012-05-06 02:59:36 AM

Gonad the Ballbarian: As an Atheistic Catholic I for one am grateful for the death-bed hedging provided.


So, to hedge... you're gonna have death-bed rites done by all these guys?
 
2012-05-06 03:23:39 AM

Maggie_Luna: In times of need I become a polytheist or Buddhist, or both. Then I revert back to atheism. Just kidding, I'm just using their names in vain while still at the atheist game. (Never the Abrahamic god or HIndu gods or Celtic, never liked them).


Here's something from "Police Action" from H Beam Piper's Paratime series you might like:

"Whenever the lotion-soaked towel touched raw skin, a pain like the burn of a hot iron shot through him; before he was through, he was in agony. Satisfied that he had disinfected every wound, he dropped the towel and clung weakly to the side of the jeep. He grunted out a string of English oaths, and capped them with an obscene Spanish blasphemy he had picked up among the Fourth Level inhabitants of his island home of Nerros, to the south, and a thundering curse in the name of Mogga, Fire-God of Dool, in a Third-Level tongue. He mentioned Fasif, Great God of Khift, in a manner which would have got him an acid-bath if the Khiftan priests had heard him. He alluded to the baroque amatory practices of the Third-Level Illyalla people, and soothed himself, in the classical Dar-Halma tongue, with one of those rambling genealogical insults favored in the Indo-Turanian Sector of the Fourth Level."
 
2012-05-06 04:21:08 AM

Spazmojack: I'm still not getting this am I? It seems pretty damn wonky to me. It is still like a backdoor way of thinking about the issue. I feel like I can be as sure about my position as an atheist as I can be sure that there aren't purple elephants flying around Pluto right now. Do I know this for certain? Could we ever know this? Is it knowable? Not with current technology. Does that mean I should be agnostic about flying purple elephants around (former planet) Pluto?


The conventional form of this argument is "Russell's Teapot".
 
2012-05-06 04:45:15 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: So Christians are now claiming that they invented talking?

/had Christian door-knockers show up the day after my dad's obit hit the papers
//so I guess they troll newspapers looking for weakened people to exploit
///I'll never forgive them for that


I've seen the Witlesses try and get kids under 13 into their group. Sick bastards.
 
2012-05-06 04:48:14 AM

Mithiwithi: Spazmojack: I'm still not getting this am I? It seems pretty damn wonky to me. It is still like a backdoor way of thinking about the issue. I feel like I can be as sure about my position as an atheist as I can be sure that there aren't purple elephants flying around Pluto right now. Do I know this for certain? Could we ever know this? Is it knowable? Not with current technology. Does that mean I should be agnostic about flying purple elephants around (former planet) Pluto?

The conventional form of this argument is "Russell's Teapot".


One day I hope to have the money to have a rocket put a teapot in solar orbit between Earth and Mars.
 
2012-05-06 05:12:02 AM
Studies have found that talking to a priest is just as therapeutic as talking to a psychologist.

Has nothing to do with religion. Has everything to do with the fact that people just want to be listened to sometimes.
 
2012-05-06 06:02:23 AM
Dadoody
Studies have found that talking to a priest is just as therapeutic as talking to a psychologist.
Has nothing to do with religion. Has everything to do with the fact that people just want to be listened to sometimes.

`
People suffering
from psychiatric disorders experience hallucinations, delusions and impaired
insight.
`
People suffering from religious disorders experience hallucinations, delusions and impaired insight.
`
So yeah, there is a definite overlap between the two groups.
/more likely religion is just a subset of the larger psychotic group.
 
2012-05-06 06:38:45 AM

Boatmech: Dadoody
Studies have found that talking to a priest is just as therapeutic as talking to a psychologist.
Has nothing to do with religion. Has everything to do with the fact that people just want to be listened to sometimes.
`
People suffering
from psychiatric disorders experience hallucinations, delusions and impaired
insight.
`
People suffering from religious disorders experience hallucinations, delusions and impaired insight.
`
So yeah, there is a definite overlap between the two groups.
/more likely religion is just a subset of the larger psychotic group.


I don't know where you got those, but not every psychiatric disorder involves psychosis. Far from it. Psychotic and thought disorders are a relatively small percentage of mental health issues. However, I must also point out that aside from your way too overly broad use of "psychiatric disorder," you're still over-simplifying it. Religious delusional disorders are not the norm for religious people, they are when psychosis blurs the line between having "faith" that things exist like your average religious person does and hearing god tell you to burn sinners. Considering how blurry that line already is (I find it very difficult as a mental health professional to know where to draw the line between faith and delusion sometimes, because someone telling me about a religious epiphany they had in church doesn't sound much different to me than when one of my clients told me all about the time jesus took her to the rainbow river and she pulled fish out of the air), religious psychosis sufferers are some of the most difficult people to help understand their disorder. The average devout religious person, though, is not psychotic, despite the tendency toward magical thinking. Life is filled with anxiety provoking things - chaos, death, destruction, instability... the list goes on. Your average religious person has learned, most likely from their parents, to use a sense of agency as a coping skill for dealing with this. It's too scary to think that death is final, so they imagine afterlives. It's too scary to think that bad things can randomly happen to good people, so they say "god has a plan." Using these schemas that are already in play, selective attention allows them to pick out anecdotes from their own life that suit their already deep-seated beliefs. For instance, you pray for a sign and a rainbow comes out. Our tendency to search for agency stems from evolutionary psychology - if we hear a noise in the bushes, we damned well better find out what made that noise. Well likewise, in the rainbow situation, one finds intelligent agency in the appearance of a natural phenomenon based on the coincidence because it fits the schema. Nevermind the fact that you've seen rainbows come out after it rains a million times without praying, this is the time you're going to focus on because it fits your beliefs. It's not that you're necessarily consciously ignoring these other instances that don't fit the schema, you don't even realize you're doing it. But even so, to point it out would challenge the schema that you have spent a life time building up to cope, so because you don't want all that existential crisis flooding in all at once, you are gonna fight tooth and nail to hold your schema intact. This is why it's pointless trying to convince a religious person of anything they don't already believe. Now, this is not to say that religious identity is a stable thing - it changes throughout a person's lifetime based on experience. But unless they change their mind on their own, they will do everything they can to keep their beliefs safe, because it keeps them safe from their own fears.
 
2012-05-06 07:00:18 AM
batcookie
`
Good morning - give me about 10 minutes to get to where I can do more than just skim your post (beer run in progress)
`
I find it very difficult as a mental
health professional...

True? No bull shiat?
 
2012-05-06 07:04:28 AM

Boatmech: batcookie
`
Good morning - give me about 10 minutes to get to where I can do more than just skim your post (beer run in progress)
`
I find it very difficult as a mental
health professional...
True? No bull shiat?


True. I have a psych degree and work in a group home for the mentally ill. You can take as long as you want to read and reply, because I'm getting ready to go home! Stupid night shifts.... you probably can't expect to hear back from me for several hours while 'cause I'ma go sleeeeeeepy time as soon as I get home.
 
2012-05-06 07:10:25 AM
If I was on my sickbed and some catholic priest came to see me, I'd talk to him. It would be a great chance for me to try and turn him away from worship of his false god to the true faith of Pastafarianism.
 
2012-05-06 07:12:24 AM

batcookie: Boatmech: batcookie
`
Good morning - give me about 10 minutes to get to where I can do more than just skim your post (beer run in progress)
`
I find it very difficult as a mental
health professional...
True? No bull shiat?

True. I have a psych degree and work in a group home for the mentally ill. You can take as long as you want to read and reply, because I'm getting ready to go home! Stupid night shifts.... you probably can't expect to hear back from me for several hours while 'cause I'ma go sleeeeeeepy time as soon as I get home.


K - no work here so I've got way too much free time.
 
2012-05-06 07:25:17 AM
Big deal. I talk to my wife's rabbi all the time - he's a great guy. He likes me - heck between golf outings, beer tastings I lead, social events I help plan I'm more involved in her temple than 90% of the members....but he knows not to try to convert me into something I can't believe in.
 
2012-05-06 07:53:42 AM

St_Francis_P: That's only ironic if you think atheists don't get scared or lonely.


Or if you believe atheists operate under some dogmatic order to be rude towards all people of faith. Sadly, many believers have, in my experience, agreed with subby in thinking a proud heathen in incapable of being moral or civil to those who don't think the same way.
 
2012-05-06 07:57:32 AM
I guess you could only consider it ironic if you're an idiot who thinks that all atheists hate religious people and refuse to talk to them for some odd reason.

Which would be silly.
 
2012-05-06 08:31:28 AM

Dimensio: As nothing is ever "proven" with science, you must treat everything as speculation.


The first part is technically correct, but I suspect you're playing word games. Admitting that there is an infinitesimal possibility that there is another explanation is different than saying everything is a wild-ass guess.

It's like Pi. You can never know the the EXACT value, but you can get a close enough approximation for all practical purposes. Just because you're uncertain about the 5 trillionth digit, doesn't put the other 4,999,999,999,999 in question. You can't say "Oh, we're not sure what the value of Pi is, so my assertion that it's exactly 22/7 is as valid as yours."

Take Newtonian physics. Classical mechanics are as "proven" as anything can be. The equations consistently make correct predictions within their known limitations, and the boundaries of those limits are similarly well-known (IE operating at terrestrial scales, not at cosmic ones). The are supported by an overwhelming body of experimental evidence. There's nothing "speculative" about it, other than in a very rarefied, philosophical sense of the word.

If you want to refute the "proven fact" that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, at a bare minimum you need to provide reproducible experimental evidence of an action that does not have an equal and opposite reaction, and then reconcile that with the centuries of contradictory evidence.
 
2012-05-06 09:01:29 AM
The first time Yossarian saw the chaplain he fell madly in love with him.
 
2012-05-06 09:11:50 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: So Christians are now claiming that they invented talking?

/had Christian door-knockers show up the day after my dad's obit hit the papers
//so I guess they troll newspapers looking for weakened people to exploit
///I'll never forgive them for that


I find it interesting that you see it that way. Sounds to me like a time when a lot of people truly might be having religious questions or seeking to explore various possibilities of their own existence. Perhaps its a time when they need to find comfort in god in order to get past the tragedy and move on with their lives. Perspectives are very interesting things.

/Atheist
 
2012-05-06 09:23:16 AM

austin_millbarge: Gonad the Ballbarian: As an Atheistic Catholic I for one am grateful for the death-bed hedging provided.

Pascals wager


Also known as "false dichotomy".

The God of Abraham is just one of a potentially infinite number of Gods. There could be one God (which may or may not be Yahweh), many Gods (which may or may not include Yahweh among their number), or no Gods. There are multiple, mutually-contradictory definitions of God and what he/she/it/they want. Following the dictates of what one sect says you should do to "live as if God exists" guarantees that you are breaking at least some of the dictates of every other sect. Since the number of potential Gods is between 0 and ∞ (inclusive) your odds of "winning" the bet are 1/∞ no matter what you do.
 
2012-05-06 09:26:54 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: kmmontandon: ... why the "but" qualifier, as though they're mutually exclusive?

That's the trolly part


Remember fellow atheists - this is what all Christians truly think!
 
2012-05-06 10:01:47 AM
"Often, a patient will say to the chaplain, 'No thanks, I am an atheist,' and yet when given the opportunity, will be happy to talk for some time."

That's impossible. Everybody knows that atheists don't like to talk.
 
2012-05-06 10:12:11 AM

here to help: A kind word and a compassionate ear are still a kind word and a compassionate ear.

Just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't mean the are a soulless asshole.

I also think people confuse people who don't believe in a specific god or theology as atheists.

Just because we don't buy into your crap doesn't mean we're arrogant enough to assume we are the be all and end all of sentient existence or that the universe has no higher meaning.

I'd imagine there are very few truly pure atheists roaming around this planet.




You need to count over. I think you confuse your thoughts with reality.

Believe none of it, not one word. Never have, never will.
 
2012-05-06 11:13:46 AM

batcookie: Boatmech: Dadoody
Studies have found that talking to a priest is just as therapeutic as talking to a psychologist.
Has nothing to do with religion. Has everything to do with the fact that people just want to be listened to sometimes.
`
People suffering from psychiatric disorders experience hallucinations, delusions and impaired insight.
`
People suffering from religious disorders experience hallucinations, delusions and impaired insight.
`
So yeah, there is a definite overlap between the two groups.
/more likely religion is just a subset of the larger psychotic group.

I don't know where you got those, but not every psychiatric disorder involves psychosis.
`

Pretty much pulled both statements out of my ass/from memory as a generalization.
The conclusion was a snarky observation based on my personal prejudices.

`
Far from it. Psychotic and thought disorders are a relatively small percentage of mental health issues. However, I must also point out that aside from your way too overly broad use of "psychiatric disorder," you're still over-simplifying it. Religious delusional disorders are not the norm for religious people, they are when psychosis blurs the line between having "faith" that things exist like your average religious person does and hearing god tell you to burn sinners.

`
That's just it - ' "faith" that things exist like your average religious person does ' - these 'things' are Gods? Omnipresent, infallible, things that affect reality in any Primary way?
(Primary ~ real effects in the real world.
Secondary ~ Crazy people hearing their god telling them to do crazy things like killing people who don't share their delusions.)
The Secondary effects of Religion are quite apparent. Religion was a useful and likely necessary step in our evolution. So were Alchemy and Astrology. Religion should be viewed for what it is - a poor and inconsistent understanding of the world around us.
As far as morals and socially acceptable behavior, Religion(tm) is to me unacceptable as a personal choice.

`
"A man's ethical behavior should be based
effectually on sympathy, education, and social
ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of
reward after death."

`
(That's not exactly how I would phrase it but it is damn close.)
`
Considering how blurry that line already is (I find it very difficult as a mental health professional to know where to draw the line between faith and delusion sometimes, because someone telling me about a religious epiphany they had in church doesn't sound much different to me than when one of my clients told me all about the time jesus took her to the rainbow river and she pulled fish out of the air), religious psychosis sufferers are some of the most difficult people to help understand their disorder.

`
No snark but, ....if you, a practicing, accredited mental health professional have difficulties separating faith from delusion where does that leave a layman like me?
I see their faith as delusion, willful in many cases and intentionally misused to justify the persecution of anyone not of their particular flavor. A certain frothy former presidential candidate for example.

`
The average devout religious person, though, is not psychotic, despite the tendency toward magical thinking.

(Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?)

Life is filled with anxiety provoking things - chaos, death, destruction, instability... the list goes on. Your average religious person has learned, most likely from their parents, to use a sense of agency as a coping skill for dealing with this.

`
And your average non-religious person has learned to deal with life without 'magical thinking'.

`
It's too scary to think that death is final, so they imagine afterlives. It's too scary to think that bad things can randomly happen to good people, so they say "god has a plan." Using these schemas that are already in play, selective attention allows them to pick out anecdotes from their own life that suit their already deep-seated beliefs.
`
The justification for promoting Religion in that paragraph is appalling.
Reality is too scary to face without some sort of personal delusion? or schema as you say.
Why encourage the childish and feeble minded in their delusions?
`

For instance, you pray for a sign and a rainbow
comes out. Our tendency to search for agency
stems from evolutionary psychology - if we hear
a noise in the bushes, we damned well better
find out what made that noise. Well likewise, in
the rainbow situation, one finds intelligent
agency
in the appearance of a natural
phenomenon based on the coincidence because
it fits the schema. Never mind the fact that
you've seen rainbows come out after it rains a
million times without praying, this is the time
you're going to focus on because it fits your
beliefs.

`
Yes - willful, intentional self delusion.
`
It's not that you're necessarily
consciously ignoring these other instances that
don't fit the schema, you don't even realize
you're doing it.
`
Please beer in mind that when you say "you" I'm assuming you mean me personally. I know it wasn't meant in that way but Damn, I do realize when I'm delusional and I refuse to be lumped in with those that don't or worse - won't admit it.

`
But even so, to point it out would
challenge the schema that you have spent a life
time building up to cope, so because you don't
want all that existential crisis flooding in all at
once, you are gonna fight tooth and nail to hold
your schema intact. This is why it's pointless
trying to convince a religious person of anything
they don't already believe.

`
I disagree
`
Now, this is not to
say that religious identity is a stable thing - it
changes throughout a person's lifetime based on
experience. But unless they change their mind
on their own, they will do everything they can to
keep their beliefs safe, because it keeps them
safe from their own fears.

Sir, in answer to your final paragraph/statement - a simple question, why should their fears, beliefs, or religious identity hold precedent over mylife?
Why should I not ' fight tooth and nail to hold my schema intact. '?
As you say they will.
`
This is why it's pointless trying to convince a religious person of anything they don't already believe.

`
Then why facilitate it through your work by encouraging it ?

/typed then\than a lot - probably screwed a couple up
 
2012-05-06 11:38:35 AM
Boatmech:

Speaking of which -
/any Religious people out there want to answer a
couple of honest questions?
- Not Trolling
- No snark, just real questions


GilRuiz1:

Well, I'm not a chaplain or a theologian or even a preacher; I'm just some random dude on the internets, but if I happen to know the answer to your questions, I'll be happy to tell you.

Boatmech:

Why is your Religion any more relevant than the countless other Religions that are no longer practiced?

GilRuiz1:

Ah, you got me! I thought you were going to be serious. Fail for me.

Boatmech:

Why Fail?
Is there something inherently wrong with my question?
/like I said NO Snark/NO Trolling


You claimed to be asking a sincere question, but when showtime came, you dropped a typical village atheist 'question'/rant/slogan. If the question is sincere, why wouldn't you just ask it?

here to help:

No one knows what's going on in this vast expanse and ANYONE who claims they do cannot be trusted.

He doesn't know, the fundies don't know, the moderates don't know, the atheists don't know and YOU don't know.


How do you know this?
 
2012-05-06 11:41:47 AM
Hello Bevets and good morning.
Give me a minute to catch back up - BRB
 
2012-05-06 11:50:47 AM

Bevets: Boatmech:

Speaking of which -
/any Religious people out there want to answer a
couple of honest questions?
- Not Trolling
- No snark, just real questions

GilRuiz1:

Well, I'm not a chaplain or a theologian or even a preacher; I'm just some random dude on the internets, but if I happen to know the answer to your questions, I'll be happy to tell you.

Boatmech:

Why is your Religion any more relevant than the countless other Religions that are no longer practiced?

GilRuiz1:

Ah, you got me! I thought you were going to be serious. Fail for me.

Boatmech:

Why Fail?
Is there something inherently wrong with my question?
/like I said NO Snark/NO Trolling

You claimed to be asking a sincere question, but when showtime came, you dropped a typical village atheist 'question'/rant/slogan. If the question is sincere, why wouldn't you just ask it?

here to help:

No one knows what's going on in this vast expanse and ANYONE who claims they do cannot be trusted.

He doesn't know, the fundies don't know, the moderates don't know, the atheists don't know and YOU don't know.

How do you know this?


Simple question ~
Which bible? Everybody has their own "Book of
God(tm).
Denominations
(List) and
Movements
Western
Adventist
· Anabaptist
· Anglican
· Baptist
· Calvinism
· Charismatic
· Evangelical
· Holiness
· Independent Catholic
· Lutheran
· Methodist
· Old Catholic
· Pentecostal
· Quaker
· Roman Catholic
Eastern Orthodox
· Eastern Catholic
· Oriental Orthodox (Miaphysite)
· Assyrian
Christadelphian
· Iglesia ni Cristo
· Jenkins Witnesses
· Latter Day Saint
· Oneness Pentecostal
· Unitarian
Gnostic Christianity
· Christian Scientists
· Rastafari Movement
· Swedenborgianism
`
Ya know, if your god can't pick one particular
version of propaganda over the others, why
should anyone else give a shiat?
/any Religious people out there want to answer a
couple of honest questions?
- Not Trolling
- No snark, just real questions
 
2012-05-06 12:06:27 PM
Bevets ~ just one simple question, why your religion and not mine?
 
2012-05-06 12:09:33 PM

here to help: Then this point NEEDS to be put across more when discussing such concepts to theists instead of "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"


The point has been made ad nauseum in these threads and considering you seem to be in every one you must be purposefully obtuse to actually claim you didn't know.
 
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