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(Connecticut Post)   "Often, a patient will say to the chaplain, 'No thanks, I am an atheist,' and yet when given the opportunity, will be happy to talk for some time"   (ctpost.com ) divider line
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9445 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 May 2012 at 9:00 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-05 11:13:26 PM  
Oh yeah, that totally means you win, Godtards.
 
2012-05-05 11:16:46 PM  

Spazmojack: o_blah: Spazmojack: GhostFish: Spazmojack: Ok... I guess if you want to break it down like that. I don't know that most agnostics see it that way, and I also don't think most religious adherents or atheists would also admit to being agnostic. Seems like a pretty impractical way to employ the term.

Well, that's what the terms mean. Or at least that's what they meant, until people bastardized them.

It's like someone asking what your favorite ice-cream flavor is, and you say "white."
Yeah, everyone around you has been saying "white" to mean "vanilla" for as long as you know (because people that say "vanilla" all act like assholes for some reason), but that doesn't mean your usage is technically correct.

I get that. And LouDobbs too. Alright. Let's pretend my statement applies to agnostics who are misunderstanding the term.

I've never met an agnostic person that didn't clearly believe that the knowledge of god is unknowable. Have you ever really sat around and talked to any?

Personally I'm an agnostic because I'm not comfortable with making uninformed decisions. I'm perfectly comfortable with admitting that I don't really know the answer.

Now, if you were to ask me to take a guess I would say that I doubt it, but I'll never say I know there isn't.

/actually it kills me that I'm not omniscient.
//oh well, we play the hand

Doesn't that (the bolded part of your statement) wait - what are you saying you don't know the answer to? Because as explained upthread, agnostic means that you believe that knowing whether or not there is a god is unknowable. So an agnostic knows it is impossible to know. Isn't that your answer? They way you say it, it sounds like you just don't know whether or not there is a god, which I what I was originally referring to.

I'm still not getting this am I? It seems pretty damn wonky to me. It is still like a backdoor way of thinking about the issue. I feel like I can be as sure about my position as an atheist as I can be sure that the ...


Link

Read his second quote and then read the counterargument by Chamberlain.

Has the concept of god ever been clearly defined? Then how can we debate it?

/disproving the bible is meaningless in this debate
 
2012-05-05 11:18:00 PM  
Ooh. Lookit how angry I made you all.

lulz

The point I was making is that the statement quoted is just as arrogant, irrational and self serving as a religious clown claiming THEY know the mysteries of the universe.

No one knows what's going on in this vast expanse and ANYONE who claims they do cannot be trusted.

He doesn't know, the fundies don't know, the moderates don't know, the atheists don't know and YOU don't know.

If you try to tell me otherwise I'll consider you an arrogant moron.

But I'll still coo in your ear and say nice things if you are ill and dying.

Why?

Because I'm a nice, compassionate guy. That's why.
 
2012-05-05 11:18:02 PM  

KiplingKat872: Elmo Jones: Boxes subby's ears

Agreed.

When my father was in his last days, he had us bring his copy of the Quran to keep on the tray. He wasn't Muslim, but he knew it would drive the visiting preacher nuts.

Miss you Dad.


This kinda choked me up a bit..just lost a dear friend about 6 weeks ago that would have done exactly this.

There may not be a bearded sky wizard frowning down upon from the sky who was his own son, but to claim one knows with absolute certainty the one thing that absolutely cannot be known shows a level of hubris I'm not entirely comfortable ascribing to.

If there is/are a/an deity/deities of sorts, it/he/she/they are not knowable. That's the point. They cannot be known.

If we believed in a deity because we had signs that proved beyond absolute certainty that said deity existed, it would not be faith - it would be self-evident. If said deity wishes to test our faith, the only way that can work is if that deity remained unknowable. Therefore, if there is a deity, they are unknowable, by nature, forever and ever. Verily.

It may have taken me a lifetime to figure that out because I'm functionally retarded, but I know better than to claim ANYTHING with absolute certainty in this transitory experience called life. I've been alive for a few decades, and all of a sudden, I'm the expert on the greatest mystery known to man? I also know better than to trust human beings, and if holy books were written by human beings, then those holy books are just as holy as the sandwich I'm eating right now.

Ponder the good advice from all tenets, and ignore the bad, and may The Great Electron preserve our atomic signatures for future reconstitution.
 
2012-05-05 11:19:44 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Now that atheism is so trendy in the west i've decided i'm a pantheist.

/you've probably never heard of it


I've decided I'm going to go with "Ignostic". What was the question again?


James F. Campbell: JaaVaa: /agnostic seems far more logical

"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow, it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally, I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." - Isaac Asimov, Free Inquiry (Spring 1982)


Now *there's* a good author ;)
 
2012-05-05 11:21:10 PM  

Anonymocoso: I spent most of a week in the hospital because our Crotchfruit was born via C-Section. My wife slept most of the time & the crotchfruit slept even more.

I was so bored (no wi-fi back then), I would talk to pretty much everyone.


Six weeks in a Catholic hospital in Rochester, MN. The Sisters gave up on me pretty quickly, but the one chaplain who visited me...brought beer. As I said, it's all about the humanity.
 
2012-05-05 11:21:32 PM  

PlatypusPuke: Ponder the good advice from all tenets, and ignore the bad, and may The Great Electron preserve our atomic signatures for future reconstitution.


So...UU as well?
 
2012-05-05 11:23:41 PM  

fusillade762: "I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow, it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally, I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." - Isaac Asimov, Free Inquiry (Spring 1982)


And actually he doesn't completely dismiss the idea of a higher power. Only states that he is HIGHLY skeptical therefore decided he's an atheist. Which he is not... because he still allows for a small possibility that there IS a higher power.

So yeah... pretty much full of wordy bullsh*t.

Who is this guy anyway? Why am I supposed to care?
 
2012-05-05 11:27:43 PM  

here to help: Ooh. Lookit how angry I made you all.

lulz

The point I was making is that the statement quoted is just as arrogant, irrational and self serving as a religious clown claiming THEY know the mysteries of the universe.

No one knows what's going on in this vast expanse and ANYONE who claims they do cannot be trusted.

He doesn't know, the fundies don't know, the moderates don't know, the atheists don't know and YOU don't know.

If you try to tell me otherwise I'll consider you an arrogant moron.

But I'll still coo in your ear and say nice things if you are ill and dying.

Why?

Because I'm a nice, compassionate guy. That's why.


I expressed agreement with your position: withholding belief in entirely unsubstantiated claims is "arrogant" and illogical, while accepting, without question, the assertion of wholly undemonstrated entities is essentially the definition of rationality.
 
2012-05-05 11:28:04 PM  

INeedAName: Gough: Badgerlad: Subby, I think you need to educate yourself on the meaning of irony.

Taking the opportunity to speak to someone who's willing to just listen when you're scared, regardless of your faith or lack of it, is a perfectly human thing to do. That the hospital-affiliated ones also know the system is just an added bonus.

THIS. Shortly after he completed divinity school, one of my college roommates was a hospital chaplain, a very good one from all reports, and he is an atheist. It's all about the humanity.

/UU, in case you wondered.

It's less about faith and more about humanity. People want to connect.


Let me add my This to this.

I've never been in hospital with a life threatening condition myself. But I have been in hospitals with a few of my immediate family members who were dealing with life threatening situations.

I was very happy to have had the chaplains there on each of these occasions. They did their best to provide comfort, through religion, to the people there who identified as religious. They also provided me with what comfort they could. But not a single one, of the three, tried to talk to me about things I didn't believe in. They talked a bit and they listened a lot. They simply gave of themselves to me/us at a time when that was what we/I needed.
 
2012-05-05 11:28:04 PM  

o_blah: Spazmojack: o_blah: Spazmojack: GhostFish: Spazmojack:


I am not sure I get it. The counterargument is that the burden of proof to "prove" a negative is higher for non-trivial things?
 
2012-05-05 11:30:05 PM  
I was reading Turing's Cathedral yesterday and it had a interesting quote from John von Neumann: as I recalls it:

Catholicism can be a hard religion to live in, but it's the best to die in.

He converted while he was dying in the hospital, to the dismay of his friends. He had been talking with a Benedictine but sent him away and requested a Jesuit.

In other news, that atheist/foxhole quip bugs me. Isn't it an admission that faith is an act of desperation?
 
2012-05-05 11:31:35 PM  

PlatypusPuke: Therefore, if there is a deity, they are unknowable, by nature, forever and ever.


Isn't that convenient? And what does nature have to do with a deity?

Do you really think "the one unknowable thing" in this universe is an extrapolation from something dreamed up by primitive goat farmers?
 
2012-05-05 11:42:28 PM  
I go to the hospital every month for checkups. The one thing I love the most is to go into the hospital chapel and read the "pray for so-and-so" notes in the binder by the door. The sincerest writing you'll ever see.

What I hate the most is seeing people carrying flowers waiting for the elevators near the chapel. Nobody carrying flowers near those elevators looks happy; they look scared and miserable. They're always trying to keep a brave face, as if they have to battle all of their fears with nothing but a potted plant. Breaks my goddamned heart when I see them.

I have never been approached by a chaplain in the hospital. Sometimes when I've been hospitalized, though, my GP will appear at my bedside. She's awesome.
 
2012-05-05 11:42:41 PM  

Dimensio: I expressed agreement with your position: withholding belief in entirely unsubstantiated claims is "arrogant" and illogical, while accepting, without question, the assertion of wholly undemonstrated entities is essentially the definition of rationality.


I read this about 5 times and assume there is a typo at the end.

Or perhaps I'm just drunk.

I believe what we can PROVE with science can be taken as reality. Everything else is merely speculation.

And even then... science is always correcting itself.

No one knows.
 
2012-05-05 11:47:11 PM  

whatshisname: Do you really think "the one unknowable thing" in this universe is an extrapolation from something dreamed up by primitive goat farmers?


Actually monotheism is something you get in well-developed, urban civilizations with a strong scholarly bent. Goat farmers tend to be polytheistic. When life is shiat, you want as many possible avenues of divine intervention as possible - more gods, more ways to find a goat. It's when you can reliably get three squares, and develop nice cross-cultural trade routes, that you get the shrinkage of variety down to Wonderbread-and-Mayo monotheism. The goat-jockey Jews were so polytheistic that Hindus would think they had went a little too far with the multiple gods angle. Monotheistic Judaism didn't come along until they were well-settled; that they were still talking about goats was no different than Americans getting stiffies about cowboys - cultural masturbation about a past that never was that they could project their current mores upon. If there was a historical Moses, his ass was most likely praying to as many gods as he could shake his putz at..
 
2012-05-05 11:49:01 PM  

phalamir: Actually monotheism is something you get in well-developed, urban civilizations with a strong scholarly bent.


Oh, like ancient China, right?

Idiot.
 
2012-05-05 11:52:05 PM  

James F. Campbell: phalamir: Actually monotheism is something you get in well-developed, urban civilizations with a strong scholarly bent.

Oh, like ancient China, right?

Idiot.


I didn't say you had to develop monotheism, just that dirty hippies wandering around trying to live off sheep and peyote don't make monotheistic religions

Donkey-farker
 
2012-05-05 11:52:31 PM  

phalamir: Actually monotheism is something you get in well-developed, urban civilizations with a strong scholarly bent.


Or classical Greece for that matter. Or ancient India.

Again: idiot.
 
2012-05-05 11:52:53 PM  
These 3 things sum up the differences between a chaplain and a preacher :
(1)
One important dimension of professional
chaplaincy is that spiritual care is multi-faith.
While all chaplains bring their own personal
religious tradition, chaplains do not promote any particular denominational religious belief.
It is not even consequential whether or not the person is a believer.

(2)
Another important aspect of professional
chaplaincy is that our primary job is to listen.
Many people are not used to having someone
carefully listen to them. Yes, most everyone can
hear what others say to them, but the professional chaplain seeks to do more.
Chaplains engage in active listening, trying to
hear the melody behind the words.
(3)
A third key aspect of professional chaplaincy is
that the chaplain is a part of the health care
team. Thus, the chaplain can access other
members of the team to communicate concerns
on behalf of the patient.
`
(1) They're not there to promote their faith, their faith is secondary to the needs of the patient.
(2) They STFU about their Religion(tm) and listen.
(3) And as noted above - They get shiat done.
`
* I'm anti-Religion in general and despise bible thumpers of every farked up 'faith' with a passion but I've never had a problem sitting down with a 'true' chaplain and discussing their beliefs or my lack faith, or life in general.
`
Speaking of which -
/any Religious people out there want to answer a
couple of honest questions?
- Not Trolling
- No snark, just real questions
 
2012-05-05 11:53:24 PM  

here to help: James F. Campbell: "I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow, it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally, I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." - Isaac Asimov, Free Inquiry (Spring 1982)

That's not logical. It's arrogant, self serving and pretentious.


I disagree. My view is much like Asimov's. I don't know that there are no gods, but I believe it's so unlikely as to not make a difference. I'm still open to believing; should some as yet unknown compelling evidence be provided. But, until then, I see no purpose in even worrying about such a thing.

As an aside: even if I were to accept the idea that there are gods or even god-like entities, how would I know which were real and which were not?
 
2012-05-05 11:56:31 PM  

acefox1: Degenz: acefox1: When I was stuck in the ortho wing at Wilford Hall at Lackland AFB in the mid-90's with a snapped Tib/Fib they kept pushing chaplains and evangelical nuts on me 2-3 times a day for the full week I was there. At first I was as polite as I could be saying "Sorry, I'm not a believer. I'd like to be left alone." After a week of non-stop harrassment and many episodes of unwanted "laying of hands" and faith-healing prayers I was close to carving a pentagram on my head and hanging a sign around my neck saying "Piss off fundies!"

This was back in the days when the fundies in all the services had full-time proselytizing programs going on while the brass denied or downplayed that any such thing was going on.

Piss off fundies!

/CSB

Sorry to hear that. But Wilford Hall used to be one of the best trauma units in town after Brooke Army Medical Center and UTSA.

I'd agree with that. The medical care I received at Wilford Hall was excellent. The out-of-control proselytizing BS nonsense was the only problem I had there. I came close to landing in the psych ward or jail from what those fundies were doing to my brain. They angry up the blood something fierce.

Can't believe that I recovered from that broken leg within 8 weeks without needing a cast. The metal rod they inserted and the crews in my knee and ankle make airport metal detectors super-fun to this very day.


Heh, they'll patch your ass up and then make you feel guilty about surviving whatever mis-circumstance that befalls you.

Did you see Ron Paul in the GOP debates talking about how he interned at Santa Rosa? No insurance? Screw you, you're gonna die.
 
2012-05-06 12:00:31 AM  

whatshisname: PlatypusPuke: Therefore, if there is a deity, they are unknowable, by nature, forever and ever.
Isn't that convenient? And what does nature have to do with a deity?
Do you really think "the one unknowable thing" in this universe is an extrapolation from something dreamed up by primitive goat farmers?


Platypus--yes, EXACTLY. "God" is supposed to be unknowable and not understandable.
So your questions, and everyone elses, are stupid. We don't and can't know the answers. We're not even supposed to. Fark, that's what "God" IS. A lame word that we use to try to understand something that we can't understand.

Now shut up or I'll start quoting Joseph Campbell.

/Actually this subject sucks, and I only posted because I never see anyone saying what Platypus Puke said.
 
2012-05-06 12:00:36 AM  

Gyrfalcon: St_Francis_P: That's only ironic if you think atheists don't get scared or lonely.

Or afraid of dying.


Hell I think atheists are MORE scared of dying. I'm an atheist who sometimes has debilitating panic attacks due to a fear of death. It would almost be nice to believe "Oh I'll just be going to go hang out with Jesus, Abe Lincoln, and Grandma foreverrrrrrrrr"
 
2012-05-06 12:01:20 AM  

here to help: Dimensio: I expressed agreement with your position: withholding belief in entirely unsubstantiated claims is "arrogant" and illogical, while accepting, without question, the assertion of wholly undemonstrated entities is essentially the definition of rationality.

I read this about 5 times and assume there is a typo at the end.

Or perhaps I'm just drunk.

I believe what we can PROVE with science can be taken as reality. Everything else is merely speculation.


As nothing is ever "proven" with science, you must treat everything as speculation.
 
2012-05-06 12:01:50 AM  

Boatmech: Speaking of which -
/any Religious people out there want to answer a
couple of honest questions?
- Not Trolling
- No snark, just real questions



Well, I'm not a chaplain or a theologian or even a preacher; I'm just some random dude on the internets, but if I happen to know the answer to your questions, I'll be happy to tell you.
 
2012-05-06 12:02:46 AM  

here to help: fusillade762: "I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow, it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally, I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." - Isaac Asimov, Free Inquiry (Spring 1982)

And actually he doesn't completely dismiss the idea of a higher power. Only states that he is HIGHLY skeptical therefore decided he's an atheist. Which he is not... because he still allows for a small possibility that there IS a higher power.

So yeah... pretty much full of wordy bullsh*t.

Who is this guy anyway? Why am I supposed to care?


OK, now I KNOW you're trolling.
 
2012-05-06 12:02:57 AM  
Some people like to prattle mindlessly.

Otherwise FARK would not exist.
 
2012-05-06 12:04:35 AM  

Rising From Ashes: Gyrfalcon: St_Francis_P: That's only ironic if you think atheists don't get scared or lonely.

Or afraid of dying.

Hell I think atheists are MORE scared of dying. I'm an atheist who sometimes has debilitating panic attacks due to a fear of death. It would almost be nice to believe "Oh I'll just be going to go hang out with Jesus, Abe Lincoln, and Grandma foreverrrrrrrrr"


Are you attempting to derail the current discussion through incitement of pony pictures?
 
2012-05-06 12:09:40 AM  

James F. Campbell: phalamir: Actually monotheism is something you get in well-developed, urban civilizations with a strong scholarly bent.

Or classical Greece for that matter. Or ancient India.

Again: idiot.


Considering ancient India also developed Jainism and Buddhism, it wasn't all Divine Justice League. Also, Greece developed Platonism, which lead to neo-Platonism, which is the chief driver in the idea of perfected, unitary Godhoods - Yahweh was an individual with a distinct personality; it took Greeks to turn him into the navel-gazing, goody-two-shoes Jehovah
 
2012-05-06 12:10:40 AM  

GilRuiz1: Boatmech: Speaking of which -
/any Religious people out there want to answer a
couple of honest questions?
- Not Trolling
- No snark, just real questions


Well, I'm not a chaplain or a theologian or even a preacher; I'm just some random dude on the internets, but if I happen to know the answer to your questions, I'll be happy to tell you.


Worth a shot -
Why is your Religion any more relevant than the countless other Religions that are no longer practiced?
 
2012-05-06 12:13:14 AM  

Philbb: I disagree. My view is much like Asimov's. I don't know that there are no gods, but I believe it's so unlikely as to not make a difference. I'm still open to believing; should some as yet unknown compelling evidence be provided. But, until then, I see no purpose in even worrying about such a thing.

As an aside: even if I were to accept the idea that there are gods or even god-like entities, how would I know which were real and which were not?


Perhaps my interpretation of the word "atheist" is skewed but I take it to mean a complete rejection of any possibility of a higher conscience or consciences potentially having some kind of effect on the more mundane aspects of our universe.

If you are open to the possibility, no matter how remote it may be (and this does not mean you have to allow it to effect your day to day life in ANY way whatsoever... just being open to MAYBE something is out there) then I don't believe that counts as a true atheist.

So perhaps my position and some of the ire it has drawn here merely comes down to semantics.

/not a troll
//well not today anyway
///...well... not about this
 
2012-05-06 12:13:14 AM  

Boatmech: GilRuiz1: Boatmech: Speaking of which -
/any Religious people out there want to answer a
couple of honest questions?
- Not Trolling
- No snark, just real questions


Well, I'm not a chaplain or a theologian or even a preacher; I'm just some random dude on the internets, but if I happen to know the answer to your questions, I'll be happy to tell you.

Worth a shot -
Why is your Religion any more relevant than the countless other Religions that are no longer practiced?


Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! Pick me! Pick me!

/Because AMERICA!
 
2012-05-06 12:13:14 AM  

Boatmech: Why is your Religion any more relevant than the countless other Religions that are no longer practiced?


Ah, you got me! I thought you were going to be serious. Fail for me.
 
2012-05-06 12:15:11 AM  

HairBolus: It's an irrefutable explanation.


It's easy to refute.

Agnostic/Atheist response: "Your God is imaginary... what you are calling his 'will' is nothing more than projection"

Unitarian Universalist response: "I believe in an all-loving God. A loving God would not intentionally inflict misery on his creations, therefore suffering must have some other cause."
 
2012-05-06 12:15:29 AM  

Dimensio: Rising From Ashes: Gyrfalcon: St_Francis_P: That's only ironic if you think atheists don't get scared or lonely.

Or afraid of dying.

Hell I think atheists are MORE scared of dying. I'm an atheist who sometimes has debilitating panic attacks due to a fear of death. It would almost be nice to believe "Oh I'll just be going to go hang out with Jesus, Abe Lincoln, and Grandma foreverrrrrrrrr"

Are you attempting to derail the current discussion through incitement of pony pictures?


I met a real-life brony tonight. I'm a cashier at Walmart and he came through my line. He was a college-age kid. Looked part Asian. Was wearing a pony shirt. A grey pony I think. Holding an arrow or something. Bought a few groceries and a couple pony figurines. One of my fellow cashiers told me that a college classmate wrote a paper on the pony show. A caught a few minutes of it when my youngest daughter was watching it. Seems to have some adult reference, Spongebob style. I may need to explore this further.
 
2012-05-06 12:17:57 AM  

here to help: Philbb: I disagree. My view is much like Asimov's. I don't know that there are no gods, but I believe it's so unlikely as to not make a difference. I'm still open to believing; should some as yet unknown compelling evidence be provided. But, until then, I see no purpose in even worrying about such a thing.

As an aside: even if I were to accept the idea that there are gods or even god-like entities, how would I know which were real and which were not?

Perhaps my interpretation of the word "atheist" is skewed but I take it to mean a complete rejection of any possibility of a higher conscience or consciences potentially having some kind of effect on the more mundane aspects of our universe.

If you are open to the possibility, no matter how remote it may be (and this does not mean you have to allow it to effect your day to day life in ANY way whatsoever... just being open to MAYBE something is out there) then I don't believe that counts as a true atheist.

So perhaps my position and some of the ire it has drawn here merely comes down to semantics.

/not a troll
//well not today anyway
///...well... not about this


Yes, it's skewed. Atheist just means no god. As in, not believing a god exists. I am one of them. I also don't believe that unicorns exist. However, in either case, if one presented itself before me, I would be forced to change my view.

I'm sure there are people out there who believe what you think atheists believe, but that is not an accurate way to describe all atheists. That would be like saying an American is a white guy born in Texas who has a mustache. Probably, you could find someone to believe that defines an American, but it would be excessively exclusive and incorrect.
 
2012-05-06 12:20:35 AM  

Rising From Ashes: Hell I think atheists are MORE scared of dying. I'm an atheist who sometimes has debilitating panic attacks due to a fear of death. It would almost be nice to believe "Oh I'll just be going to go hang out with Jesus, Abe Lincoln, and Grandma foreverrrrrrrrr"


Except, carried to its logical conclusion, Heaven is a place where everyone is a lobotomized zombie. The only way everything could be perfect with no sin ever is if free will would be dead. Only with a complete lack of personality and volition could you insure no one ever did anything that wrong-footed someone else. Hell, by central Christian doctrine, the most saintly, well-intentioned, well-behaved person is a screaming, donkey-farking psychopath; God had to commit suicide on Himself just so he could let the nice ones in. Christianity says you commit Shoah-level evil everyday just by waking up (all commit sin, and all sins are equal in the eyes of God). Yet, we are led to believe that all these completely evil and depraved sociopaths will never act even slightly bad for all eternity, when before, they couldn't even brush their teeth without committing a venal sin or two? Yeah, right. Only way that dog hunts is if St Peter is waiting to trepan you and stir the insides around at the Gate.
 
2012-05-06 12:21:53 AM  

here to help: If you are open to the possibility, no matter how remote it may be (and this does not mean you have to allow it to effect your day to day life in ANY way whatsoever... just being open to MAYBE something is out there) then I don't believe that counts as a true atheist.


Then you are mistaken. Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. Acceptance of the possibility of deities is not itself belief in the existence of deities.
 
2012-05-06 12:23:04 AM  
Even though I don't believe God exists, I certainly understand why people need to believe he does.
 
2012-05-06 12:23:14 AM  

phalamir: monotheistic religions


phalamir: Considering ancient India also developed Jainism and Buddhism


notsureifserious.jpg
 
2012-05-06 12:23:38 AM  

GilRuiz1: Boatmech: Why is your Religion any more relevant than the countless other Religions that are no longer practiced?

Ah, you got me! I thought you were going to be serious. Fail for me.


Why Fail?
Is there something inherently wrong with my question?
/like I said NO Snark/NO Trolling
 
2012-05-06 12:23:46 AM  

phalamir: Rising From Ashes: Hell I think atheists are MORE scared of dying. I'm an atheist who sometimes has debilitating panic attacks due to a fear of death. It would almost be nice to believe "Oh I'll just be going to go hang out with Jesus, Abe Lincoln, and Grandma foreverrrrrrrrr"

Except, carried to its logical conclusion, Heaven is a place where everyone is a lobotomized zombie. The only way everything could be perfect with no sin ever is if free will would be dead. Only with a complete lack of personality and volition could you insure no one ever did anything that wrong-footed someone else. Hell, by central Christian doctrine, the most saintly, well-intentioned, well-behaved person is a screaming, donkey-farking psychopath; God had to commit suicide on Himself just so he could let the nice ones in. Christianity says you commit Shoah-level evil everyday just by waking up (all commit sin, and all sins are equal in the eyes of God). Yet, we are led to believe that all these completely evil and depraved sociopaths will never act even slightly bad for all eternity, when before, they couldn't even brush their teeth without committing a venal sin or two? Yeah, right. Only way that dog hunts is if St Peter is waiting to trepan you and stir the insides around at the Gate.


This problem is where Buddhism shines in comparison. However, I think you are missing a part of Christianity here - the magic part where this isn't a problem. Or something...
 
2012-05-06 12:25:11 AM  
My dad, a non-practicing Jew, was in the hospital with at most days to live and a chaplain came to see him. We explained very carefully that my dad was a Jew but did not have strong religious beliefs.

The chaplain blessed him in the name of Jesus.

I'm sure there are lots of very nice chaplains, but f**k that guy.
 
2012-05-06 12:28:35 AM  

Spazmojack: Yes, it's skewed. Atheist just means no god. As in, not believing a god exists. I am one of them. I also don't believe that unicorns exist. However, in either case, if one presented itself before me, I would be forced to change my view.


There's a wacky chart that gets posted here sometimes here regarding this exact subject that I never fully understood. I'm surprised it hasn't surfaced yet.

But it makes the point that spirituality (or lack thereof) is most definitely not a black/white issue. My initial comments related to the perception of many theists that anyone who does not believe in a specific god is an atheist... which is obviously untrue. Then I prodded around that point a bit to express that there are (by my personal definition of a TRUE atheist) very few actual atheists around.

Glib? Perhaps. But I stand by the point I was trying to make.

Spazmojack: I'm sure there are people out there who believe what you think atheists believe, but that is not an accurate way to describe all atheists. That would be like saying an American is a white guy born in Texas who has a mustache. Probably, you could find someone to believe that defines an American, but it would be excessively exclusive and incorrect.


That is a total misrepresentation, poor understanding and poor analogy of what I was trying to express.

However I am mildly intoxicated and occupied with other stuff (YAY FOOD!) at the moment so perhaps I am not making my thoughts as clear as they could be.
 
2012-05-06 12:33:35 AM  

Buffalo66: The chaplain blessed him in the name of Jesus.

I'm sure there are lots of very nice chaplains, but f**k that guy.


Makes me want to become a chaplain just to wander around laying hands on Christians and screaming "Molech demands your babies be barbequed on open coals to receive you into His Divine Presence" - I wonder how many I could off from shock - and how many would send off for the gandbabies to be slow-roasted just to cover their bases.
 
2012-05-06 12:34:40 AM  

Dimensio: Then you are mistaken. Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. Acceptance of the possibility of deities is not itself belief in the existence of deities.


Then this point NEEDS to be put across more when discussing such concepts to theists instead of "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"

Because really... that is much of what the current militant atheism movement is doing these days.

I understand the anger however these topics need to be approached rationally and intelligently. No matter HOW derpfaced the "opposing" side may be.

Yanno?
 
2012-05-06 12:37:53 AM  

here to help: Spazmojack: Yes, it's skewed. Atheist just means no god. As in, not believing a god exists. I am one of them. I also don't believe that unicorns exist. However, in either case, if one presented itself before me, I would be forced to change my view.

There's a wacky chart that gets posted here sometimes here regarding this exact subject that I never fully understood. I'm surprised it hasn't surfaced yet.

But it makes the point that spirituality (or lack thereof) is most definitely not a black/white issue. My initial comments related to the perception of many theists that anyone who does not believe in a specific god is an atheist... which is obviously untrue. Then I prodded around that point a bit to express that there are (by my personal definition of a TRUE atheist) very few actual atheists around.

Glib? Perhaps. But I stand by the point I was trying to make.

Spazmojack: I'm sure there are people out there who believe what you think atheists believe, but that is not an accurate way to describe all atheists. That would be like saying an American is a white guy born in Texas who has a mustache. Probably, you could find someone to believe that defines an American, but it would be excessively exclusive and incorrect.

That is a total misrepresentation, poor understanding and poor analogy of what I was trying to express.

However I am mildly intoxicated and occupied with other stuff (YAY FOOD!) at the moment so perhaps I am not making my thoughts as clear as they could be.


Ok, my Texan thing sucked. But I disagree that atheists must adhere to the "complete rejection of any possibility" aspect that you cited. I think that one can believe something to be true, but still acknowledge that it is possible that this belief could be wrong; I don't believe this diminishes the view or purity of the view. To deny that possibility is arrogant.
 
2012-05-06 12:44:42 AM  

here to help: "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"


You get your side to put down the "DIE NON-JESUSBOY!! DIE! I DON'T NEED NO REASON - CAUSE GOD!!!" and we'll talk. But I'll be damned if I should unilaterally disarm to appease the group that made decided going out of their way to travel to entire hemispheres of the world to hunt down and murder anyone not like them. How bout you turn that cheek and pull some beams out of your eye, and then we might talk nice. Until then, a non-Christian (whether atheist or not) would be insane to back down - give a Christian an inch, they will burn your entire ethnic group.
 
2012-05-06 12:46:34 AM  

phalamir: here to help: "F*CK YOU, JESUSBOY!!! THAT'S WHY!!!"

You get your side to put down the "DIE NON-JESUSBOY!! DIE! I DON'T NEED NO REASON - CAUSE GOD!!!" and we'll talk. But I'll be damned if I should unilaterally disarm to appease the group that made decided going out of their way to travel to entire hemispheres of the world to hunt down and murder anyone not like them. How bout you turn that cheek and pull some beams out of your eye, and then we might talk nice. Until then, a non-Christian (whether atheist or not) would be insane to back down - give a Christian an inch, they will burn your entire ethnic group.


STOP PERSECUTING CHRISTIANS!

Sheesh!

/carry on...
 
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