Gwyrddu: OK, I found it. It was the Mincome program in Dauphin, Canada

Yeah, but that's Manitoba. Try it in Newfoundland and I'll be convinced.

PirateFreedom: Solon Isonomia: I practice Social Secuirty Disability law - I spend 60+ hours a week on this stuff and I've got to say disability is poorly portrayed by the media.

For example, Disability Insurance Benefits require you to have paid enough money into the system recently enough. It's not some free-ride program, it's public disability insurance that's paid by you with your FICA withholding and if your disability shows up too long after you stopped working you won't be covered.

Supplemental Security Income doesn't have a requirement that you paid into the system, but you need to be VERY poor to qualify. If you've got $2,000 on available resources you don't qualify ($3,000 if you're married). If you get income of any kind, including free rent from friends/family, it will offset any possible benefit until you can receive nothing - the maximum benefit is ~$960/month with individuals usually capping out near $750, so it's not hard to hit that limit.

Plus, anyone who is participating in substantial gainful activity will not qualify at all no matter how disabled they are. You could be armless and wheelchair bound an you'd be ineligible if you're working full time OR making at least $1,010/month gross - and full time can include volunteer work or even self-employment.

This stuff is my life and DAMN is it misunderstood.

Can they get free wheelchairs? medicine? living assistance? etc or do they pay for that stuff with what they already (I won't say steal after reading your post) steal from us.

No, disability won't pay for it. If you're on disability, you usually qualify for Medicare or Medicaid, BUT both require you to pay a monthly premimum and then you might get some of those services at a discount or for "free."

We had some layoffs here a couple of years ago. There where three guys in my department that were going to retire that year. So they requested that they be laid off. So they were and got 6 months severence pay and then could collect unemployment for almost two years after that even though they were going to quit in a few months anyhow. They were the three worst people in the department and I was glad to see them go. But they got off with a hell of a deal that they didn't really deserve.

/bitter

eiger: A Dark Evil Omen: What they're saying about welfare motivation is "accurate" in a simple game-theoretic model. If humans were all TI calculators from 1968 these would be accurate statements. The only reason, however, that these wrong-headed ideas still used is that they support Friedmanite economics and the field of economics is, by its nature, dominated by right-wing capitalists. IOW, anyone who studies economics is being pumped full of right-wing propaganda from the outset.

But here's the wild thing I was trying to point out above, Friedman actually supported a guaranteed basic income. Back in the day it was actually seen as the conservative alternative to the Great Society. The main benefit being that it provided the social safety net that conservatives back then agreed should exist without the large scale government intervention in peoples' lives.

Today such an idea would be seen as too radical even by most Democrats.

/Not in any way trying to contradict you, just pointing out how far to the right this country has moved even in comparison to such right-wing heroes as Friedman (and Reagan).

Well yeah, there's that, too. That's because the "mainstream" right at this point is almost precisely adhering to Pinochet's ideology. Militarism, super-aggressive neoliberalism characterized by assaults first on the working class then on the middle class, the kleptocratic nature of top officials and a shocking disregard for human and civil rights. They are literally neofeudalists.

PirateFreedom: WhyteRaven74: PirateFreedom: Can they get free wheelchairs? medicine?

Those are covered by Medicaid or Medicare. Which are separate programs from Social Security disability.

So disability is a sort of very long term unemployment insurance benefit not an inclusive form of welfare. Once in a while I also learn something while I'm here dispensing wisdom.

That's inaccurate - you also need to meet or medically equal one of the impairment listings. As in you need something wrong with you that prevents you from maintaining substantial gainful activity.

I would post a link but I'm chillin' at the comic store for FCBD and I'm on my phone (google "listing of impairments").

Scandinavian economist, advocating his region's welfare system: "In Scandinavia we have no poverty."

Milton Friedman's response: "That's interesting, because in America among Scandinavians, we have no poverty either."

The important distinction isn't race, but cultural attitudes towards work. Some cultures (e.g. Vietnamese, Japanese, Jewish) place a high value on hard work. Others don't (e.g. Greek, Spanish, African-American).

Any welfare program needs to take into account its population. What works in Scandinavia won't work in Greece, and what works in Minnesota won't translate to Mississippi.

TV's Vinnie: People don't just put on a hockey helmet a la Cartman and stagger into a Social Security office saying "Gimmeh money!" and it happens. You have to truly be Disabled in order to qualify, with a sh*tton of paperwork backing you up proving that you're not only disabled, but you're so disabled that you'll never be able to find decent employ ability for the rest of your life.

I startd the process in September, just got notice of my psych eval in July (mandatory). I have spinal stenosis (incurable, untreatable), 4 synovial cysts and 2 ruptured discs. On a good day I can go to the store and by leaning on the cart manage about 10 minutes on my feet at a time; bad days I can barely get out of bed to go to the bathroom.

The amount of paperwork is staggering-I went through a disability law firm so they do a lot of it, but there is still a massive amount. As the ONLY thing I've ever done for a job-since age 12-is cook, I'll never work again, yet a question that keeps popping up from the gov't goes: "If you had a job where all you had to do for 8 hours a day was press a button occasionally, could take breaks whenever you needed to to lie down etc., could you do it?"

As though such a job would exist anyway. My lawyer figures IF I'm lucky enough not to be denied the first time (and like 90% are), I might see my whopping $900/month late this fall.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: TV's Vinnie: This article is misleading and full of crap and the author should feel like crap about it.

Getting on Disability is a very, verrrrry difficult process. In many cases, it can take over two years of one denial after another before you're allowed to appeal to literally make a Federal case of it.

People don't just put on a hockey helmet a la Cartman and stagger into a Social Security office saying "Gimmeh money!" and it happens. You have to truly be Disabled in order to qualify, with a sh*tton of paperwork backing you up proving that you're not only disabled, but you're so disabled that you'll never be able to find decent employ ability for the rest of your life.

That's why I don't understand why that upper class stay at home mom with the career military husband was able to claim depression as a disability and get paid, but folks who are blind in one eye or in a wheelchair have to fight tooth and nail. And why do some people seem to easily get on the 'back' gravy train, while others who really are screwed up are denied repeatedly?

There has to be more than just the paperwork and two years of proving you are looking for work but can't and seeing a doctor, right?

It is very unlikely that the wife you describe in your scenario would be eligible for SSI (too much money) or DIB (hasn't worked enough since she's a stay-at-home).

A Dark Evil Omen: Well yeah, there's that, too. That's because the "mainstream" right at this point is almost precisely adhering to Pinochet's ideology. Militarism, super-aggressive neoliberalism characterized by assaults first on the working class then on the middle class, the kleptocratic nature of top officials and a shocking disregard for human and civil rights. They are literally neofeudalists.

The American right is nothing at all like Pinochet, our record on human rights is nothing like Chile's, and shame on you for making that comparison.

If you oppose capitalism, just say so. By over-inflating your language ("literally neofeudalists"), you come off as uneducated as the "Obama is literally a Marxist" Tea Partiers.

robmilmel: TV's Vinnie: People don't just put on a hockey helmet a la Cartman and stagger into a Social Security office saying "Gimmeh money!" and it happens. You have to truly be Disabled in order to qualify, with a sh*tton of paperwork backing you up proving that you're not only disabled, but you're so disabled that you'll never be able to find decent employ ability for the rest of your life.

I startd the process in September, just got notice of my psych eval in July (mandatory). I have spinal stenosis (incurable, untreatable), 4 synovial cysts and 2 ruptured discs. On a good day I can go to the store and by leaning on the cart manage about 10 minutes on my feet at a time; bad days I can barely get out of bed to go to the bathroom.

The amount of paperwork is staggering-I went through a disability law firm so they do a lot of it, but there is still a massive amount. As the ONLY thing I've ever done for a job-since age 12-is cook, I'll never work again, yet a question that keeps popping up from the gov't goes: "If you had a job where all you had to do for 8 hours a day was press a button occasionally, could take breaks whenever you needed to to lie down etc., could you do it?"

As though such a job would exist anyway. My lawyer figures IF I'm lucky enough not to be denied the first time (and like 90% are), I might see my whopping $900/month late this fall.

Jeez, I thought only the Midwest was that backed up with claims - or are you at the reconsideration stage or waiting for the ALJ?

PirateFreedom: Solon Isonomia: That's inaccurate - you also need to meet or medically equal one of the impairment listings. As in you need something wrong with you that prevents you from maintaining substantial gainful activity.

I'm just conflating can't work because of injury etc with can't work because there are no jobs because either way it's an insurance style benefit you pay into while you work.
As sloppy as the comparison may seem to a knowledgeable professional it does represent an improvement from when I thought disability was a welfare program. (30 minutes ago)

Fair enough - just keep in mind it's more complex than it first appears and don't be one of those people who complain when they end up being someone who needs the program but gets denied due to some restrictive policy they backed due to misunderstanding or political motivations.

ghare: Solon Isonomia: ....It is very unlikely that the wife you describe in your scenario would be eligible for SSI (too much money) or DIB (hasn't worked enough since she's a stay-at-home).

Are you trying to say that this story is just a lie cooked up by people with an agenda?

I am shocked.

If someone doesn't state the truth then it'll just get worse.

Solon Isonomia: I've got to say disability is poorly portrayed by the media.

It's an extension of the "cadillac driving welfare queen" myth, for which Reagan will be choking on the thorny cock of Satan for all eternity.

Jackson Herring: Solon Isonomia: I've got to say disability is poorly portrayed by the media.

It's an extension of the "cadillac driving welfare queen" myth, for which Reagan will be choking on the thorny cock of Satan for all eternity.

Ugh, don't remind me. Fortunately, the DIB side of my work gives me an easy way to explain it to skeptics - it's insurance and you've been paying the premimum with every paycheck, this it's not a free handout.

Solon Isonomia: Ugh, don't remind me.

If it helps, Reagan is probably also being sodomized by the thorny cock of Satan's right-hand demon for all eternity. Like the worst Eiffel Tower ever

Solon Isonomia: Jeez, I thought only the Midwest was that backed up with claims - or are you at the reconsideration stage or waiting for the ALJ?

No in the reconsider/alj. Still just crawling through.

I do have a pet peeve I need to air: self-employed or business owners who play fast and loose with their finances to avoid paying taxes and then complain when they can't get benefits. Guys who have three late-model trucks they "use for work" but use accounting tricks so they don't have to pay the self-employment tax into Social Security - they are the most indigent people when I confirm they aren't eligible for disability. It's usually something like this:

Him: How can the government say I can't get benefits? I'm no leech, I've been working twenty years and I'm not some freeloader like my neighbor!
Me: Did you ever pay the self-employment tax?
Him: Heh, no, my tax weasels worked it out so I didn't have to pay.
Me: Then you never paid for the disability insurance. No tax, no benefit.
Him: But my deadbeat neighbor only worked at some grocery store making shiat money until his MS/cancer/whatever got bad, why does some peon like him get a handout?
Me: Because he paid into the system through his FICA deduction - you didn't. Plus, he's probably getting a grand or less a month, less than half of his old wage.
Him: Oh...

Yeah, I still hate having that conversation.

Jackson Herring: Solon Isonomia: Ugh, don't remind me.

If it helps, Reagan is probably also being sodomized by the thorny cock of Satan's right-hand demon for all eternity. Like the worst Eiffel Tower ever

If the stories are true about what he did with young starlets when he was working on Hollywood then I think the Welfare Queen comment is the least of his karmic worries.

robmilmel: Solon Isonomia: Jeez, I thought only the Midwest was that backed up with claims - or are you at the reconsideration stage or waiting for the ALJ?

No in the reconsider/alj. Still just crawling through.

Make sure you go to that consultative examination and keep treating with your doctors (which includes telling them how you're doing, no matter how embarassing, and do what your doctors ask). Reconsideration usually has a 90% denial rate, but things get better with the ALJ - especially if you've got an attorney who actually makes arguments and asks questions at the hearing.

Solon Isonomia: I do have a pet peeve I need to air: self-employed or business owners who play fast and loose with their finances to avoid paying taxes and then complain when they can't get benefits. Guys who have three late-model trucks they "use for work" but use accounting tricks so they don't have to pay the self-employment tax into Social Security - they are the most indigent people when I confirm they aren't eligible for disability. It's usually something like this:

Him: How can the government say I can't get benefits? I'm no leech, I've been working twenty years and I'm not some freeloader like my neighbor!
Me: Did you ever pay the self-employment tax?
Him: Heh, no, my tax weasels worked it out so I didn't have to pay.
Me: Then you never paid for the disability insurance. No tax, no benefit.
Him: But my deadbeat neighbor only worked at some grocery store making shiat money until his MS/cancer/whatever got bad, why does some peon like him get a handout?
Me: Because he paid into the system through his FICA deduction - you didn't. Plus, he's probably getting a grand or less a month, less than half of his old wage.
Him: Oh...

Yeah, I still hate having that conversation.

I, too, practice disability law. That is my biggest pet peeve as well, especially now that I work for myself and pay those self-employment taxes my self. I once had a guy that owned a baseball card shop for 23 years. Obviously that is a highly cash based operation. He hadn't paid taxes in any of those years. 23 straight years he took a loss on paper. I asked him how he could possibly stay in business if he lost money on the shop for 23 years. He told me he "didn't know." I'd have to ask the people that did his taxes. He was furious he wasn't eligible. farking leach.

Solon Isonomia: Make sure you go to that consultative examination and keep treating with your doctors (which includes telling them how you're doing, no matter how embarassing, and do what your doctors ask). Reconsideration usually has a 90% denial rate, but things get better with the ALJ - especially if you've got an attorney who actually makes arguments and asks questions at the hearing.

I've been following the lawyer's advice to the letter, and we've been documenting it all (mri, x-rays, pain clinics). The firm I'm using is supposed to be the best one around here, so that's a plus. I hope something happens soon, the medical bills are killing us ($20K last year alone, we had really crappy insurance then).

Captain Dan: A Dark Evil Omen: Well yeah, there's that, too. That's because the "mainstream" right at this point is almost precisely adhering to Pinochet's ideology. Militarism, super-aggressive neoliberalism characterized by assaults first on the working class then on the middle class, the kleptocratic nature of top officials and a shocking disregard for human and civil rights. They are literally neofeudalists.

The American right is nothing at all like Pinochet, our record on human rights is nothing like Chile's, and shame on you for making that comparison.

If you oppose capitalism, just say so. By over-inflating your language ("literally neofeudalists"), you come off as uneducated as the "Obama is literally a Marxist" Tea Partiers.

They are very much like Pinochet's regime, and, in case you've forgotten, largely fawned over it when Pinochet was in power. The fact that they haven't been able to implement their stated policy goals doesn't mean those aren't things they're working for. I do oppose capitalism and make no secret of it; if that was what I was talking about, however, I'd be coming down on the Republicans and Democrats alike. I'm not. I stand by my words.