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(Spiegel)   Photographer toured East Germany just after the fall of the Berlin Wall taking photos of decayed buildings. Ten years later he took photos again of the same things to show how capitalism revitalized what communism allowed to decay   (spiegel.de) divider line 148
    More: Interesting, Berlin Wall, East Germany, narrow streets, East Berlin, West Germany, broken windows, communist state, Gothic  
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22308 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 May 2012 at 4:57 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-05 06:37:52 AM

relcec: who can shiat out the most kids?

communism works like dogshiat on every scale.


I can tell your argument is well reasoned and compelling by the prolific use of the word shiat, great success!
 
GBB
2012-05-05 06:39:07 AM

Mentat: Ok, I'll say it: capitalism is the best economic system we've yet come up with. It has created more wealth for more people than any other economic system in history. And in the realm of practice, there is no question that capitalism triumphs over communism. It doesn't matter if you think that what they tried in Russia wasn't "real" communism. Communism as it has been implemented in the real world fails miserably compared to capitalism. That's why the Chinese have abandoned it in all but name.

That said, capitalism is far from perfect and what we are seeing in the modern world is a free market competition between different flavors of capitalism. We have the corporate plutocracy model of America, the social capitalism system of Europe, the centralized controlled capitalism of China, the rigid hierarchical models of Japan and South Korea, and whatever the hell they're doing in India. From an academic standpoint, it's interesting to see how all of these various models play against each other and how they deal with the various issues that are plaguing the global economy. It's not a case anymore where you can say "Yea, capitalism!" because that phrase no longer has any meaning.


The problem with Communism isn't the idea, it's the people. Communism only works in small groups of like minded people. Take my house for example. When my wife and I moved in together and were married, we shared everything. It did not matter who made more money and who owned what previously. Whatever we purchased was mutually owned. When we had 1 kid, nothing really changed. When we had a 2nd kid, suddenly there was a power struggle between the two. When they were old enough, arguments about who owned what came into play and to support their sides, they compared how hard they worked individually. And that's when Communism fails; when competition is introduced.

In the real world, what happens when your interests are more of what you do and how you survive and not in competing with others for riches?

Not everyone is a world-class athlete, but sometimes you like to play. What if your life depended on how well you played against others?? As civilized people, life shouldn't and doesn't have to be a forced competition with others. But there is no place for those that do not want to compete, for nearly everything necessary for life is controlled by those who compete with each other for tokens.
 
2012-05-05 06:41:29 AM
We should each take it in turns to be a sort of chief executive for for the week with any purely internal affairs being decided by a simple majority vote and any military or supra national issues requiring a 2/3 majority. Anarcho-syndicalist communes for the win!
 
2012-05-05 06:52:13 AM
Detroit doesn't exactly have capitalism. For the last 50 years, it's been more of an idiocracy.

ts4.mm.bing.net
 
2012-05-05 06:58:09 AM

relcec: oh your clever.

/I'll wait for a few minutes to see if you can formulate an argument. then I'm going to sleep.


What about my clever?

/G'night!
 
2012-05-05 06:59:37 AM

skinnycatullus:
aren't at least half of corporate board members required to be worker representatives? unemployment benefits and a high minimum wage?


No and No. Corporate boards are not half workers... but they do make up a large percent of a supervisory board, and a works council, which make sure the "board" is behaving itself towards workers.

There is also no minimum wage in Germany. The parliment is currently discussing enacting one at the moment. However, there are industry minimum standards for employee pay. But this can different amongst different industries.
 
2012-05-05 07:03:46 AM
I bet you all can't even name one farking commune or company that is run on communist principles that has been around for a century.
most die in a few decades.
nevermind trying to create entire nations based on that retarded idea that has set itself the impossible goal of overcoming a couple billion years of evolutionary biology's impact on the human being.

hell, at least a third of the companies found in the dow industrials have been been in existence for more than a century. several have been around for over 150 years. there are for profit companies in europe that have been around for 400 years. there are 7 companies in japan that are over 1000 years old.
nevermind the vast majority of western nations that have based their economic systems on capitalism for a very long time indeed.

the most successful cooperatives in history are of course all ones started by religious orders which kind of flies in the face of everything you stand for, and even after ignoring that important part we can see that they don't have very much in common with the communist ideal.

this really is not even debatable.
even over the medium term, communism fails everytime, as capitalism (in its various forms) continues to thrive.
 
2012-05-05 07:10:36 AM
Send the occupy crowd there to be squatters. That way they can rip down the improvements brick by anarchist brick and return it to a state of perfect Stalinism or whatever they think trustfund Marxist paradise looks like
 
2012-05-05 07:15:38 AM
Looks like the vinyl siding business is good in East Germany. Do they have Payday Loans and Rent-to-own yet?
 
2012-05-05 07:17:15 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost:
Now it's falling apart because Germany is tired of footing the bill for the rest of the Union's socialism.


Spain, Ireland, Portugal, and Greece were held up as capitalist models when the housing bubble was still inflated. The Germans were happy to loan their governments money at a high interest rate.

Then the bubble burst, and now the Germans want to pretend that their right to get all their money back trumps everything else. Never mind this thing called a "risk premium."
 
2012-05-05 07:20:23 AM

relcec: I bet you all can't even name one farking commune or company that is run on communist principles that has been around for a century.
most die in a few decades.
nevermind trying to create entire nations based on that retarded idea that has set itself the impossible goal of overcoming a couple billion years of evolutionary biology's impact on the human being.

hell, at least a third of the companies found in the dow industrials have been been in existence for more than a century. several have been around for over 150 years. there are for profit companies in europe that have been around for 400 years. there are 7 companies in japan that are over 1000 years old.
nevermind the vast majority of western nations that have based their economic systems on capitalism for a very long time indeed.

the most successful cooperatives in history are of course all ones started by religious orders which kind of flies in the face of everything you stand for, and even after ignoring that important part we can see that they don't have very much in common with the communist ideal.

this really is not even debatable.
even over the medium term, communism fails everytime, as capitalism (in its various forms) continues to thrive.


Insomnia? No use losing sleep over it.

The problem with your argument is that it's based on the false presumption that any of the examples you've alluded to exist in truly capitalistic societies. Therein lies the fatal flaw in capitalism: it assumes an amount of nobility from those on top, and a certain level of education from the rest. Almost the opposite of communism, which assumes a nobility in all members of the society, but different discussion there. If you allow a truly capitalistic economy to run unchecked, you end up moving through robber-barons and into a plutocracy and eventually the equivalent of a monarchy; you therefore have to introduce elements of socialism into the equation to protect the interests of the huddled masses. Workers' rights, minimum wages, social security, laws and regulations to prevent monopolies, and the like.

At any rate, I don't disagree at all with what you said in this post about communism, I just thought your earlier statements on the topic were rather silly. On the whole, though, it seems to me that every economic/governmental system which we've devised so far has always suffered from a chosen few who figured out a way to work that system to their own advantage. Communism in it's purest form is nothing more than a fantasy, but thousands of years of trial and error have shown us that the same is true of every "pure" system. What every major nation has in place now is a hodgepodge of different systems blended together in various proportions, and each of those nations is still experimenting to find the right blend.
 
2012-05-05 07:22:03 AM
Can't wait to see the "10 years after Katrina" pictures.
 
2012-05-05 07:35:20 AM
lots of bullshiat in this thread. lots and lots.
 
2012-05-05 07:35:55 AM
It's a story about modernization using outdated (black and white) technology. WTF is up with that?
 
2012-05-05 07:41:34 AM
The others just haven't been doing it properly. You just wait. We're going to make North America Best America.
 
2012-05-05 07:45:15 AM

Stinkyy: Detroit doesn't exactly have capitalism. For the last 50 years, it's been more of an idiocracy.

[ts4.mm.bing.net image 232x300]


Like the idiots yelling they would rather burn Detroit down as oppose to letting a city manager be appointed by Snyder. Flint has had that happen a couple of times now and we have gotten used to it. We can admit that we can't find a mayoral candidate with a brain.

I don't know what they will find to burn that hasn't been burned yet, but they will try.
 
2012-05-05 07:46:03 AM
Bravo subby. I love slideshows like these
 
2012-05-05 07:50:06 AM

Mentat: NFA: Capitalism? The GOP has been calling Germany a bastion of socialism for decades...

Which is ironic considering Germany is the austerity enforcer of Europe right now.


And has lower taxes and a more deregulated labor market than the US.

It was true up thru the 1990s, now they are to the right of us. That's why they're doing so well.
 
2012-05-05 07:53:28 AM

ghostwind: skinnycatullus:
aren't at least half of corporate board members required to be worker representatives? unemployment benefits and a high minimum wage?


No and No. Corporate boards are not half workers... but they do make up a large percent of a supervisory board, and a works council, which make sure the "board" is behaving itself towards workers.

There is also no minimum wage in Germany. The parliment is currently discussing enacting one at the moment. However, there are industry minimum standards for employee pay. But this can different amongst different industries.


Interesting. I stand corrected.
 
2012-05-05 07:54:51 AM

Red Shirt Blues: "I'll tell you one thing about the Krauts. They sure clean up good."


All they need is some Mozart.
 
2012-05-05 07:57:23 AM
Before anyone tries to point out how much this was a triumph of capitalism it should perhaps be pointed out that a lrge part of the improvements were not done or financially supported by the government.

It should also be pointed out that the photos are not from 'just' after the fall of the wall, they are months and years after the fall. During and immediately after the fall many people left the east leading to a abandonment and rapid decay in many places. These photos don't really show what it was like under communism but what happened immediately after capitalism took hold. Everyone who could left for the west. Entire industries who could no longer compete shut down, buildings suddenly went empty and rapidly decayed because nobody cared for them anymore. The photos concentrate on old buildings, what is much more shocking is what happened to the typical communist buildings. Shortly after the fall of communism East Germany was full of large concrete slabs in brutalism style that housed a large part of the population. they are almost completely gone today.

Nevertheless there were huge improvements over all in the way things looked.
 
2012-05-05 07:57:39 AM
Germany improved between 1991 and 2001... so vote Republican?
 
2012-05-05 07:58:36 AM
Deja Vu, I lived in Berlin '92-93 so I'm getting a kick etc etc.

brap: An interesting mix of "nice work" and "wow you managed to suck all the historic significance out of that building or street and turn it into a generic eyesore."

Just what we all figured would happen at the time, West German Federal blandness would wipe out all the little bits of old world quirkiness that managed to survive the East German socialist neglect.
I like to think that we in the UK. or even the Italians, would have seen that as a great opportunity to make something old yet new but still cool. Germany just saw it as a problem to be solved.
West Germany is kind of predictable that way: "Zany, off the wall and original? GTFO."
 
2012-05-05 08:03:55 AM

inkydoo: Bravo subby. I love slideshows like these


Narrow your google search to the year 2009 or even November 2009 - there were quite a few similar articles

My Favorite

Boston big picture

Slate Slideshow
 
2012-05-05 08:06:01 AM

sharkbeagle: Send the occupy crowd there to be squatters.


Berlin doesn't need more squatters
 
2012-05-05 08:07:29 AM
Arthen Their burgers are still full of and taste like shiat. No matter how they are housed. Crapola food is still crapola.
 
2012-05-05 08:09:56 AM

Via Infinito: Well, not so much capitalism as taxes, subs. There is a special "solidarity" tax that you have to pay in Germany if you're a citizen. It's how they were able to afford to rebuild East Germany. And a lot of the older Germans from the West are still very very butthurt about that tax. It's one of the first things I learned when I lived there.


Not so much capitalism? Taxes don't grow on trees, if you want good tax revenues you need a strong economy, if you want a strong economy capitalism is a good way to get there.
 
2012-05-05 08:13:18 AM
Wow, the resident derpers are STILL freaking out about "communism."

Good lord, what a bunch of clueless cowards.
 
2012-05-05 08:13:44 AM
I'm shocked they nobody has cried "it mus be all Photoshopped."
 
2012-05-05 08:18:03 AM
sharkbeagle: Send the occupy crowd there to be squatters.

Cajnik: Berlin doesn't need more squatters

For sure! Berlin could export young people with unrealistic ideas and a very snotty, entitled attitude, it's never been short of them. Unfortunately it doesn't seem as if there's great deal of demand for that sort of thing...
"So remember folks, for all your stupid young fanatic needs get down to Berlin. Our prices are crazy crazy crazy. And so are half our inhabitants."
 
2012-05-05 08:25:16 AM
No shocker. Communism just doesn't work on a large scale in the real world. It looks good on paper, but so do perpetual motion machines. You have to be either unintentionally or willfully ignorant to allow yourself to believe either one would work if implemented.
 
2012-05-05 08:28:03 AM

Sid_6.7: NFA: I remember back when the European union was created and the US conservatives ( Limbaugh beat it like a drum) kept claiming the EU would fall apart because the rest of the Union would get fed up with footing the bill for Germany's socialism.

My how times have changed....

There's a lesson in this. Take anything Limbaugh says, and rotate it approximately 180 degrees. And look, the truth!


And now it's like refusing to drink a glass of water because your great grandfather drowned.
 
2012-05-05 08:35:19 AM

mizchief: Via Infinito: Well, not so much capitalism as taxes, subs. There is a special "solidarity" tax that you have to pay in Germany if you're a citizen. It's how they were able to afford to rebuild East Germany. And a lot of the older Germans from the West are still very very butthurt about that tax. It's one of the first things I learned when I lived there.

Not so much capitalism? Taxes don't grow on trees, if you want good tax revenues you need a strong economy, if you want a strong economy capitalism is a good way to get there.


Sure, I agree with you in principle, but try paying the taxation rate that they pay in Germany and see how fast you start screaming socialism. German citizens pay a progressive tax based on their income and then another 21% tax for social programs. Thanks to my being an American, I only had to pay a scant 26% income tax to them and I had a certificate of coverage to exempt me from having to pay the other taxes. If I had been German, 47% of my income would have gone to the government. Capitalism FTW?

My point is that it's not the particular kind of economy that produced the revenue, it was the increased taxation. Germans spend half their income on their infrastructure and society. Americans do not. Germans rebuilt half their country. Americans can't even rebuild New Orleans.
 
2012-05-05 08:43:23 AM

Cajnik: inkydoo: Bravo subby. I love slideshows like these

Narrow your google search to the year 2009 or even November 2009 - there were quite a few similar articles

My Favorite

Boston big picture

Slate Slideshow


Thank you :)
 
2012-05-05 08:54:16 AM

Via Infinito: mizchief: Via Infinito: Well, not so much capitalism as taxes, subs. There is a special "solidarity" tax that you have to pay in Germany if you're a citizen. It's how they were able to afford to rebuild East Germany. And a lot of the older Germans from the West are still very very butthurt about that tax. It's one of the first things I learned when I lived there.

Not so much capitalism? Taxes don't grow on trees, if you want good tax revenues you need a strong economy, if you want a strong economy capitalism is a good way to get there.

Sure, I agree with you in principle, but try paying the taxation rate that they pay in Germany and see how fast you start screaming socialism. German citizens pay a progressive tax based on their income and then another 21% tax for social programs. Thanks to my being an American, I only had to pay a scant 26% income tax to them and I had a certificate of coverage to exempt me from having to pay the other taxes. If I had been German, 47% of my income would have gone to the government. Capitalism FTW?

My point is that it's not the particular kind of economy that produced the revenue, it was the increased taxation. Germans spend half their income on their infrastructure and society. Americans do not. Germans rebuilt half their country. Americans can't even rebuild New Orleans.


The higher income people of Manhattan would love to pay 47%.
 
2012-05-05 09:04:55 AM

A Friendly Color: Via Infinito:

The higher income people of Manhattan would love to pay 47%.


German income tax is progressive. The top rate is 45% for people making more than 250,730 Euros. Then they have to pay the 21% on top of that. The top German earners would be paying 66% in taxes.
 
2012-05-05 09:22:25 AM
Raise taxes to 100% Plan Obama-East Germany
 
2012-05-05 09:26:47 AM

Mentat: whatever the hell they're doing in India.


I think they're trying Bureaucratism, where if you generate enough paperwork something good is supposed to happen.
 
2012-05-05 09:32:15 AM

sharkbeagle: Raise taxes to 100% Plan Obama-East Germany


You're getting farkied just I can see what other insightful comments you spit out on here.

/And then I fully expect this account to disappear until the next election
 
2012-05-05 09:40:18 AM

Harv72b: It's been my experience that on the whole, all -isms are horribly flawed.


"I'm not European. I don't plan on being European. So who gives a crap if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists. It still wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car. Not that I condone fascism, or any "ism" for that matter. "Isms" in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an "ism", he should believe in himself."

/Bueller... Bueller...
 
2012-05-05 09:41:27 AM
The best thing about this thread is watching someone try four different troll attempts without a single bite.
 
2012-05-05 09:57:18 AM
Very cool, thanks subby
 
2012-05-05 10:00:17 AM
You idiots. There's pictures of ruined buildings being rebuilt, deserted homes being lived in again, blighted areas being turned into parks. And y'all want to argue about politics. For fark's sake.

Also, Deslided (pops)
 
2012-05-05 10:06:42 AM
It's not just capitalist propaganda. Communism really does suck.
 
2012-05-05 10:06:44 AM

I May Be Crazy But...: You idiots. There's pictures of ruined buildings being rebuilt, deserted homes being lived in again, blighted areas being turned into parks. And y'all want to argue about politics. For fark's sake.


Well it seemed inappropriate to argue about religion.
 
2012-05-05 10:10:38 AM

Harv72b: I May Be Crazy But...: You idiots. There's pictures of ruined buildings being rebuilt, deserted homes being lived in again, blighted areas being turned into parks. And y'all want to argue about politics. For fark's sake.

Well it seemed inappropriate to argue about religion.


Heh heh. Good point.

Anyone have strong feelings about the way the Yankees just buy a team?

What? It's the intersection of arguing about sports and arguing about communism/capitalism.
 
2012-05-05 10:25:25 AM
In the foreground a sign reads "Private Property -- Unauthorized Vehicles will be Towed Away Free of Charge."

Yeah, it's getting the car back that costs.
 
2012-05-05 10:25:33 AM

Cajnik: sharkbeagle: Raise taxes to 100% Plan Obama-East Germany

You're getting farkied just I can see what other insightful comments you spit out on here.

/And then I fully expect this account to disappear until the next election


Even threads that have nothing to do with politics sharkbeagle injects his tought on liberals.
 
2012-05-05 10:28:02 AM

I May Be Crazy But...: Harv72b: I May Be Crazy But...: You idiots. There's pictures of ruined buildings being rebuilt, deserted homes being lived in again, blighted areas being turned into parks. And y'all want to argue about politics. For fark's sake.

Well it seemed inappropriate to argue about religion.

Heh heh. Good point.

Anyone have strong feelings about the way the Yankees just buy a team?

What? It's the intersection of arguing about sports and arguing about communism/capitalism.


Well we would have to get past my hatred for the Yankees, which I admit is probably a non start issue.
 
2012-05-05 10:34:46 AM
This just shows me I should have started a building contractor business in the late 90's, in Germany.
 
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