If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Spiegel)   Photographer toured East Germany just after the fall of the Berlin Wall taking photos of decayed buildings. Ten years later he took photos again of the same things to show how capitalism revitalized what communism allowed to decay   (spiegel.de) divider line 148
    More: Interesting, Berlin Wall, East Germany, narrow streets, East Berlin, West Germany, broken windows, communist state, Gothic  
•       •       •

22309 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 May 2012 at 4:57 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



148 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-05-04 10:08:25 PM
Well, not so much capitalism as taxes, subs. There is a special "solidarity" tax that you have to pay in Germany if you're a citizen. It's how they were able to afford to rebuild East Germany. And a lot of the older Germans from the West are still very very butthurt about that tax. It's one of the first things I learned when I lived there.
 
2012-05-04 10:23:27 PM
A lot of improvements, yes, but a lot lost also. Fresh and new isn't always best.
 
2012-05-04 10:28:19 PM
Wait, so Germany is a capitalist country now?

Don't they have universal health care and "free" college? And aren't at least half of corporate board members required to be worker representatives? Don't they have generous (and long-lasting) unemployment benefits and a high minimum wage?

That don't sound like no capitalism I ever heard of.
 
2012-05-04 11:02:27 PM
"I'll tell you one thing about the Krauts. They sure clean up good."
 
2012-05-04 11:06:31 PM
So Detroit must be staunchly Communist.

That explains a lot.
 
2012-05-04 11:38:52 PM
Ok, I'll say it: capitalism is the best economic system we've yet come up with. It has created more wealth for more people than any other economic system in history. And in the realm of practice, there is no question that capitalism triumphs over communism. It doesn't matter if you think that what they tried in Russia wasn't "real" communism. Communism as it has been implemented in the real world fails miserably compared to capitalism. That's why the Chinese have abandoned it in all but name.

That said, capitalism is far from perfect and what we are seeing in the modern world is a free market competition between different flavors of capitalism. We have the corporate plutocracy model of America, the social capitalism system of Europe, the centralized controlled capitalism of China, the rigid hierarchical models of Japan and South Korea, and whatever the hell they're doing in India. From an academic standpoint, it's interesting to see how all of these various models play against each other and how they deal with the various issues that are plaguing the global economy. It's not a case anymore where you can say "Yea, capitalism!" because that phrase no longer has any meaning.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2012-05-04 11:57:24 PM
Capitalism? The GOP has been calling Germany a bastion of socialism for decades...
 
2012-05-05 12:03:18 AM
To be fair, one could easily have found a bunch of ruined buildings in Russia from the days of the Czars, and then shown the dramatic improvements once the Soviet government had taken over.

Mentat: Ok, I'll say it: capitalism is the best economic system we've yet come up with. It has created more wealth for more people than any other economic system in history. And in the realm of practice, there is no question that capitalism triumphs over communism. It doesn't matter if you think that what they tried in Russia wasn't "real" communism. Communism as it has been implemented in the real world fails miserably compared to capitalism. That's why the Chinese have abandoned it in all but name.

That said, capitalism is far from perfect and what we are seeing in the modern world is a free market competition between different flavors of capitalism. We have the corporate plutocracy model of America, the social capitalism system of Europe, the centralized controlled capitalism of China, the rigid hierarchical models of Japan and South Korea, and whatever the hell they're doing in India. From an academic standpoint, it's interesting to see how all of these various models play against each other and how they deal with the various issues that are plaguing the global economy. It's not a case anymore where you can say "Yea, capitalism!" because that phrase no longer has any meaning.


As with most things, the correct answer lies somewhere in the middle. Capitalism can be good, but it can also be soul-crushingly terrible. Same thing goes for government control.
 
2012-05-05 12:09:40 AM
Not so much as communism allowed to decay as never rebuilt after WWII
 
2012-05-05 12:21:47 AM

NFA: Capitalism? The GOP has been calling Germany a bastion of socialism for decades...


Which is ironic considering Germany is the austerity enforcer of Europe right now.
 
2012-05-05 12:25:54 AM

Mentat: NFA: Capitalism? The GOP has been calling Germany a bastion of socialism for decades...

Which is ironic considering Germany is the austerity enforcer of Europe right now.


The Germans tend to be paranoid as hell about inflation. Rapid inflation was a contributing factor to the Nazis seizing power way back when.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2012-05-05 12:38:45 AM

Sid_6.7: Which is ironic considering Germany is the austerity enforcer of Europe right now.

The Germans tend to be paranoid as hell about inflation. Rapid inflation was a contributing factor to the Nazis seizing power way back when.



I remember back when the European union was created and the US conservatives ( Limbaugh beat it like a drum) kept claiming the EU would fall apart because the rest of the Union would get fed up with footing the bill for Germany's socialism.

My how times have changed....
 
2012-05-05 12:41:01 AM

NFA: I remember back when the European union was created and the US conservatives ( Limbaugh beat it like a drum) kept claiming the EU would fall apart because the rest of the Union would get fed up with footing the bill for Germany's socialism.

My how times have changed....


There's a lesson in this. Take anything Limbaugh says, and rotate it approximately 180 degrees. And look, the truth!
 
2012-05-05 01:52:44 AM

cretinbob: Not so much as communism allowed to decay as never rebuilt after WWII


Sam Ting.
 
2012-05-05 02:57:27 AM
An interesting mix of "nice work" and "wow you managed to suck all the historic significance out of that building or street and turn it into a generic eyesore."
 
2012-05-05 03:06:10 AM
I got to visit East Berlin before the wall came down. What a dreary farking place that was.
 
2012-05-05 03:41:18 AM
An article dated 9/30/2010 about photos taken in 1990 and follow up photos taken 10 years later.

How timely.
 
2012-05-05 04:35:30 AM
This could be from any eastern European country.

I come from a Hungarian family and we'd visit the relatives every summer- I was 3 years old when the curtain collapsed, so I always enjoyed going there in my childhood to see what was "new." I still remember my relatives bragging about how they're a modern country because they have Coca-Cola, and being invited to come gawk at the McDonald's and first shopping mall that wasn't a communist warehouse.

Still a lot of graffiti though, I wish they'd work on that.

/ to be fair, I've seen areas of Romania that still had peeling paint and the old communist signs by the road
// that was an interesting photography experience
 
2012-05-05 05:02:36 AM

brap: An interesting mix of "nice work" and "wow you managed to suck all the historic significance out of that building or street and turn it into a generic eyesore."


Yup, that and "Well done, you've removed trees and built on the parklands"
 
2012-05-05 05:03:52 AM

namegoeshere: A lot of improvements, yes, but a lot lost also. Fresh and new isn't always best.


I agree. I have traveled quite a bit through the old eastern bloc countries that are now in the EU, and Riga is one of my favorite cities, as it still has not been revitalized.
 
2012-05-05 05:05:20 AM
In 1991 most of the flats in Görlitzer Strasse in Dresden are deserted.

So it goes.
 
2012-05-05 05:06:46 AM

skinnycatullus: Wait, so Germany is a capitalist country now?

Don't they have universal health care and "free" college? And aren't at least half of corporate board members required to be worker representatives? Don't they have generous (and long-lasting) unemployment benefits and a high minimum wage?

That don't sound like no capitalism I ever heard of.


Health care since the 1880s.
 
2012-05-05 05:16:15 AM

Mentat: Ok, I'll say it: capitalism is the best economic system we've yet come up with. It has created more wealth for more people than any other economic system in history. And in the realm of practice, there is no question that capitalism triumphs over communism. It doesn't matter if you think that what they tried in Russia wasn't "real" communism. Communism as it has been implemented in the real world fails miserably compared to capitalism. That's why the Chinese have abandoned it in all but name.

That said, capitalism is far from perfect and what we are seeing in the modern world is a free market competition between different flavors of capitalism. We have the corporate plutocracy model of America, the social capitalism system of Europe, the centralized controlled capitalism of China, the rigid hierarchical models of Japan and South Korea, and whatever the hell they're doing in India. From an academic standpoint, it's interesting to see how all of these various models play against each other and how they deal with the various issues that are plaguing the global economy. It's not a case anymore where you can say "Yea, capitalism!" because that phrase no longer has any meaning.


It's been my experience that on the whole, all -isms are horribly flawed.
 
2012-05-05 05:17:39 AM

skinnycatullus: Don't they have generous (and long-lasting) unemployment benefits


You must be thinking of Greece.
 
2012-05-05 05:18:42 AM

propasaurus: An article dated 9/30/2010 about photos taken in 1990 and follow up photos taken 10 years later.

How timely.


Do you have better?
 
2012-05-05 05:19:04 AM
Capitalism has some obvious inherent flaws: One is the environmental question, another is the fearsome efficiency of production. The presumption that more stuff makes us happier is becoming suspect.

Also, the model of the human as a mini-entrepreneur is a wee bit strained.
 
2012-05-05 05:20:02 AM

NFA: Sid_6.7: Which is ironic considering Germany is the austerity enforcer of Europe right now.

The Germans tend to be paranoid as hell about inflation. Rapid inflation was a contributing factor to the Nazis seizing power way back when.


I remember back when the European union was created and the US conservatives ( Limbaugh beat it like a drum) kept claiming the EU would fall apart because the rest of the Union would get fed up with footing the bill for Germany's socialism.

My how times have changed....


You're a farking idiot
 
2012-05-05 05:22:08 AM

Sid_6.7: Capitalism can be good


it's not sustainable
 
2012-05-05 05:24:17 AM

libranoelrose: NFA: Sid_6.7: Which is ironic considering Germany is the austerity enforcer of Europe right now.

The Germans tend to be paranoid as hell about inflation. Rapid inflation was a contributing factor to the Nazis seizing power way back when.


I remember back when the European union was created and the US conservatives ( Limbaugh beat it like a drum) kept claiming the EU would fall apart because the rest of the Union would get fed up with footing the bill for Germany's socialism.

My how times have changed....

You're a farking idiot


a farking idiot? lol, what? lol lol what?
 
2012-05-05 05:26:34 AM
East Berlin has come so far along in "improvements" that the initial wave of west germans that moved there (and the east germans that stayed) are being pushed out.

a good example of this is the nightlife. three clubs in Berlin have closed since the beginning of the year, and another 15 are under threat from property development. Berlin without its nightlife would be like Amsterdam without 420.

Link
 
2012-05-05 05:27:24 AM
I was hoping to see the hostel I stayed at when I visited last summer.

/eurotrip
 
2012-05-05 05:29:04 AM
my great-great grandfather died trying to save berlin from the russian communist hordes. you know, for the nazis, so i'm getting blah blah blah out of all of this.
 
2012-05-05 05:35:19 AM
This proves that John Kerry was actually born in Africa and therefore Mitt Romney is automatically president.
 
2012-05-05 05:37:05 AM

Omahawg: my great-great grandfather died trying to save berlin from the russian communist hordes. you know, for the nazis, so i'm getting blah blah blah out of all of this.


Did he fall out of the guard tower?
 
2012-05-05 05:40:26 AM

Mentat: there is no question that capitalism triumphs over communism. It doesn't matter if you think that what they tried in Russia wasn't "real" communism. Communism as it has been implemented in the real world fails miserably compared to capitalism.


Post-October Revolution Russia, everything after Lenin's death was a complete divergence from what it was. Early, and arguably true national communism took a dirt-poor country stretching continents into a world superpower within decades. After Lenin's death and the rise of tzarist Stalin is absolutely no comparison to what it once was. It's as divergent as comparing colonial America's economy to now.

Post-Lenin's Soviet Union was in no way communist as before, and it is extremely disingenuous to feign that it was.

Get off your high horse for a second and really think. Both we and the Soviets took on Germany, a rising superpower that missed a few small opportunities that have become the victor of the second world war. On one hand you had the capitalist might, ohh sorry, the command economy of the US telling companies to make war machines, and the Soviet empire already in that mode. There were very little differences in what we were doing, and we were tacitly allies before the god-botherers showed up in American politics.

All you have is gross mismanagement of the Soviet Union to toot about capitalism being so great, overlooking the systematic corruption and inherent socio-economic problems of making the rope to bind your own neck. It should be obvious that foisting political power on a bunch of barely literate simpletons would bring about the destruction of the Soviet Union. That's the logical conclusion, of course. Much the same, capitalism and politics being not-so-strange bedfellows also follows the exact same course of simpletons having too much power being able to run amok until everything comes crashing down.

No matter how you peel the apple, communism and capitalism works great on the smallest scale. They also need lots of checks, balances, and regulations on the large scale to work in perpetuity. Anyone who says otherwise about either is a fool. There are a lot of merits to true capitalism, as well as true communism. Don't get me wrong about that.

/Obvious communist is obvious.
//If my shop needs employes I'll treat them to the communist model. Henry Ford knew a thing or two about that, just didn't go quite as far with the wages.
 
2012-05-05 05:42:23 AM

signaljammer: Capitalism has some obvious inherent flaws: One is the environmental question,


Unlike "communism"
envis.maharashtra.gov.in
 
2012-05-05 05:42:51 AM
Bwahaha. Watching the wannabe commies here twist and cry is a great way to begin the weekend!

A++ Subby!
 
2012-05-05 05:50:07 AM

cretinbob: Not so much as communism allowed to decay as never rebuilt after WWII


Why it never was rebuilt after WWII?
 
2012-05-05 05:50:23 AM

phatboy249: Omahawg: my great-great grandfather died trying to save berlin from the russian communist hordes. you know, for the nazis, so i'm getting blah blah blah out of all of this.

Did he fall out of the guard tower?


no one knows? at that point the germans mostly had old men and 14 year olds fighting anyway. that's what always bugs me about d-day movies (where my grandfather landed on omaha beach). it was old men and teenagers there. he told me the waves really were red though. no, not like your mom with a heavy flow, but with blood.
 
2012-05-05 05:52:55 AM

Omahawg: phatboy249: Omahawg: my great-great grandfather died trying to save berlin from the russian communist hordes. you know, for the nazis, so i'm getting blah blah blah out of all of this.

Did he fall out of the guard tower?

no one knows? at that point the germans mostly had old men and 14 year olds fighting anyway. that's what always bugs me about d-day movies (where my grandfather landed on omaha beach). it was old men and teenagers there. he told me the waves really were red though. no, not like your mom with a heavy flow, but with blood.


no, wasn't insinuating that your mother menstruates ectoplasm. i'm just drunk and maudlin.
 
2012-05-05 06:00:15 AM

Stibium: Post-October Revolution Russia, everything after Lenin's death was a complete divergence from what it was. Early, and arguably true national communism took a dirt-poor country stretching continents into a world superpower within decades. After Lenin's death and the rise of tzarist Stalin is absolutely no comparison to what it once was. It's as divergent as comparing colonial America's economy to now.

Post-Lenin's Soviet Union was in no way communist as before, and it is extremely disingenuous to feign that it was.


Are you implying that Lenin made Russia the superpower?
 
2012-05-05 06:03:00 AM

NFA: Sid_6.7: Which is ironic considering Germany is the austerity enforcer of Europe right now.

The Germans tend to be paranoid as hell about inflation. Rapid inflation was a contributing factor to the Nazis seizing power way back when.


I remember back when the European union was created and the US conservatives ( Limbaugh beat it like a drum) kept claiming the EU would fall apart because the rest of the Union would get fed up with footing the bill for Germany's socialism.

My how times have changed....


Now it's falling apart because Germany is tired of footing the bill for the rest of the Union's socialism.
 
2012-05-05 06:09:37 AM

Mentat: Ok, I'll say it: capitalism is the best economic system we've yet come up with. It has created more wealth for more people than any other economic system in history. And in the realm of practice, there is no question that capitalism triumphs over communism. It doesn't matter if you think that what they tried in Russia wasn't "real" communism. Communism as it has been implemented in the real world fails miserably compared to capitalism. That's why the Chinese have abandoned it in all but name.

That said, capitalism is far from perfect and what we are seeing in the modern world is a free market competition between different flavors of capitalism. We have the corporate plutocracy model of America, the social capitalism system of Europe, the centralized controlled capitalism of China, the rigid hierarchical models of Japan and South Korea, and whatever the hell they're doing in India. From an academic standpoint, it's interesting to see how all of these various models play against each other and how they deal with the various issues that are plaguing the global economy. It's not a case anymore where you can say "Yea, capitalism!" because that phrase no longer has any meaning.


japan's history of corporatocracy makes ours look really very tame in comparison. only in the past decade has it gotten significantly bad here, with bill clinton repealing glass stegall so citigroup could form, bush passing the prescription drug benefit that didn't force producers to price anywhere close to cost, and now the obama healthcare reform bill, which similarly looks like it could have been written by the for profit medical insurance lobby and will shortly create massive profits for them by using the force of law to for the first time force American citizens to purchase a private companies products.

all that bullshiat withstanding, I know of no country in world history that had such tightly linked corporate and governmental organs as japan did not too long ago.
what you are describing as the rigid hierarchical model is what is left of the zaibatsus/corporatocracy in japan. it isn't dead by a long shot. the japanese have a very substantial cultural tradition of government-corporate cooperation that can readily be seen today.
 
2012-05-05 06:19:16 AM
Bwahaaha, loving the comments so far!

"Post-Lenin's Soviet Union was in no way communist as before...." Bwahaha

"Not so much as communism allowed to decay as never rebuilt after WWII"...Bwahaha

Castro was not pure enough of a communist.

China simply strayed down the path of evil money.

North Korea is best Korea.

Here in the US we are going to get it working this time, everyone else was simply doing it wrong.

This thread has epic potential.

Now dance monkeys!
 
2012-05-05 06:24:08 AM

Andromeda: Still a lot of graffiti though, I wish they'd work on that.


It adds character. Budapest is just like a dirty Prague, and Prague is just a dirty Vienna. But I don't think I would ever live in Vienna... to bland for me

Teknowaffle: I agree. I have traveled quite a bit through the old eastern bloc countries that are now in the EU, and Riga is one of my favorite cities, as it still has not been revitalized.


Try Bosnia, you get the the graffiti AND the bullet holes.

Stibium: //If my shop needs employes I'll treat them to the communist model


Funny, and Communism would treat you to their model where the shop you took years to build up is taken away from you and given to some rural mouthbreather to run into the ground

/Why all the commie threads lately? Is everyone still butthurt they didn't get Tuesday off?
 
2012-05-05 06:26:00 AM

Stibium: No matter how you peel the apple, communism and capitalism works great on the smallest scale. They also need lots of checks, balances, and regulations on the large scale to work in perpetuity. Anyone who says otherwise about either is a fool. There are a lot of merits to true capitalism, as well as true communism. Don't get me wrong about that.

/Obvious communist is obvious.
//If my shop needs employes I'll treat them to the communist model. Henry Ford knew a thing or two about that, just didn't go quite as far with the wages.


are you really a communist? like, not a syndicalist or something? a real died in the wool communist moron? you're gonna create a classes, stateless, moneyless utopia where everyone is the boss and resources are divided up according to who can shiat out the most kids?

communism works like dogshiat on every scale.
and it's pretty much the only government that is absolutely unworkable on any level for even a moderate length of time.
communism is the only governmental system that can make dictatorships that are run by functional retards look efficient. it literally is the worst system for governance imaginable, and cannot be even put into practice for any substantial length of time.
 
2012-05-05 06:28:10 AM

relcec: communism is the only governmental system that can make dictatorships that are run by functional retards look efficient. it literally is the worst system for governance imaginable


Know how I know you lack both an imagination and an interest in history?
 
2012-05-05 06:28:32 AM
I freakin love these things!
 
2012-05-05 06:31:19 AM

Harv72b: relcec: communism is the only governmental system that can make dictatorships that are run by functional retards look efficient. it literally is the worst system for governance imaginable

Know how I know you lack both an imagination and an interest in history?


oh your clever.

/I'll wait for a few minutes to see if you can formulate an argument. then I'm going to sleep.
 
2012-05-05 06:32:33 AM

Andromeda: invited to come gawk at the McDonald's


Have you seen the Budapest McDonalds?

ic2.pbase.com
 
Displayed 50 of 148 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report