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(io9)   What if the Game of Thrones characters had Dungeons & Dragons alignments?   (io9.com) divider line 174
    More: Interesting, Dungeons & Dragons, coalitions, Ned Stark, Westeros, midgets, falling in love, good leader, Khal Drogo  
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8097 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 03 May 2012 at 2:11 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-03 03:05:59 PM  

EdVenture: Why is he Joffrey Lannister and not Joffrey Baratheon? Shouldn't he have taken his Father's name.


His name is Joffrey Baratheon. If he's called Lannister, it's by someone impugning him.
 
2012-05-03 03:07:10 PM  

FightDirector: Hodor = meowsaysthedog


I'd swap that for Patchface.

Also:

Jon Snow = Jon Snow
 
2012-05-03 03:07:57 PM  

FightDirector: knightofargh: SpoilerAlert: What other lists could we make up?

What farker would they be?

Robert Baratheon = Drew Curtis
Cersei = Grable's Daughter
Tyrion = Pocket Ninja
Jon Snow = Gat_00
Hodor = meowsaysthedog
Joffery = Bevets


Hmmm...I like this game...


Dude, if anyone is Hodor it's Bevets. That whole repeating the same thing over and over bit...
 
2012-05-03 03:08:37 PM  

meanmutton: Drogo was absolutely CN, no "tendencies" about anything.


His affection for Danerys, his displays of genuine compassion for her and his restraint of his natural impulses to kill, maim and rape showed subtle but discernible drift on my DM's alignment graph. Not enough for me to penalize him any XP's but definitely there.
 
2012-05-03 03:09:04 PM  

FightDirector: Hodor = meowsaysthedog Hodor


FTFY
 
2012-05-03 03:12:04 PM  

Alfonso the Great: No, Bran did it. Stupid peeping-Stark.


As I've asserted before, as a parent I'd have tossed the whiny farker out a window myself. Jaime is blameless.

FightDirector: Cersei = Grable's Daughter


She's not nearly manipulative enough. The rest is spot on.
 
2012-05-03 03:12:18 PM  

Solon Isonomia: FightDirector: knightofargh: SpoilerAlert: What other lists could we make up?

What farker would they be?

Robert Baratheon = Drew Curtis
Cersei = Grable's Daughter
Tyrion = Pocket Ninja
Jon Snow = Gat_00
Hodor = meowsaysthedog
Joffery = Bevets


Hmmm...I like this game...

Dude, if anyone is Hodor it's Bevets. That whole repeating the same thing over and over bit...


Viserys Targaryen
 
2012-05-03 03:13:02 PM  

Snapper Carr: A Chaotic Evil individual understands power just fine. The primary difference between a LE king and a CE King is that the LE ruler is dependent on laws, traditions and alliances to rule. A CE character relies purely on intimidation and fear. He rules because he has the strength (in this case the Lannister power and reputation) to subjugate his subjects. Which is a fairly accurate summation of Joffrey's conduct as king.


Hmm, I suppose you're right. The only thing keeping him in check is fear. I tend to think of CE as a full on despotic warlord, without council or laws to prop him, maintaining his power through complete and utter violence. Joffrey has the trappings of Law but doesn't give a damn for them.
 
2012-05-03 03:13:12 PM  

Ennuipoet: meanmutton: Drogo was absolutely CN, no "tendencies" about anything.

His affection for Danerys, his displays of genuine compassion for her and his restraint of his natural impulses to kill, maim and rape showed subtle but discernible drift on my DM's alignment graph. Not enough for me to penalize him any XP's but definitely there.


Yer doin' it wrong: Drogo drifted when he let Dany take control when they conceived Rhogo because he didn't follow his desire to do things HIS way. I bet he got extra XP for RPing the shiat out of that scene.
 
2012-05-03 03:14:06 PM  
img109.imageshack.us
 
2012-05-03 03:14:22 PM  

cannotsuggestaname: that was written by someone that doesn't really understand the alignments of D&D (any version)


On top of that,

"In the classic version of Dungeons & Dragons, characters were given alignments based upon a nine-grid matrix that featured such traits as "good," "chaotic," "neutral," and a bunch more."

this was written by someone who thinks 2 (Evil, Lawful) is a bunch.
 
2012-05-03 03:15:34 PM  

Snapper Carr: Solon Isonomia: FightDirector: knightofargh: SpoilerAlert: What other lists could we make up?

What farker would they be?

Robert Baratheon = Drew Curtis
Cersei = Grable's Daughter
Tyrion = Pocket Ninja
Jon Snow = Gat_00
Hodor = meowsaysthedog
Joffery = Bevets


Hmmm...I like this game...

Dude, if anyone is Hodor it's Bevets. That whole repeating the same thing over and over bit...

Viserys Targaryen


No, Viserys is all of the professional trolls on the Politics tab put together into some sick sort of Voltron.
 
2012-05-03 03:15:58 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-05-03 03:16:45 PM  
Melisandre:True Neutral
Tyrion: Chaotic Good
Mance: True neutral
Tywin: Lawful Good
 
2012-05-03 03:17:03 PM  
I find it hard to the "regarding lawfulness" label hard to someone who is king, whereas they are the one that make the laws. Wouldn't all kings be considered "lawful", regardless of the good-----evil scale of their edicts?
 
2012-05-03 03:18:16 PM  

jeanwearinfool: I find it hard to the "regarding lawfulness" label hard to someone who is king, whereas they are the one that make the laws. Wouldn't all kings be considered "lawful", regardless of the good-----evil scale of their edicts?


Wow, NyQuil, booze, and colds really do mess up a mans mind. I meant to say "I find it hard to assign the "regarding lawfulness" label to someone".
 
2012-05-03 03:18:18 PM  

Solon Isonomia: FightDirector: knightofargh: SpoilerAlert: What other lists could we make up?

What farker would they be?

Robert Baratheon = Drew Curtis
Cersei = Grable's Daughter
Tyrion = Pocket Ninja
Jon Snow = Gat_00
Hodor = meowsaysthedog
Joffery = Bevets


Hmmm...I like this game...

Dude, if anyone is Hodor it's Bevets. That whole repeating the same thing over and over bit...


Ah, see...I was going with "generates a desire to repeatedly and alternatively punch in the face and the dick" as my primary metric for "who should be Joffery".

And just because somebody took the screen name from a GoT cast member doesn't automatically make them the best farker for the role.
 
2012-05-03 03:18:20 PM  

knightofargh: Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: War of the Roses had dragons, zombies, and wizards? Holy shiat, I need to bone up on my English history! :p

Hence "reskinned" brah.

And some of the aristocracy in the era would resemble zombies due to inbreeding. It's only incest if your sister is ugly, if she's hot it's wincest.



Sure, reskinned in the same way that Kim Kardashian is a reskinned Oprah Winfrey I guess. I mean... they're both women... and uhhhhh.... Yeah, your assertion was more than a stretch. Just because they all use swords and have royalty doesn't mean one is necessarily based off of the other. You wouldn't say Firefly is a "reskinned" version of Apollo 13, would you?

So can you provide some specific examples to support your claim?
 
2012-05-03 03:20:27 PM  

Warrener: Anyone that when given a choice between keeping the acknowledged heir on the throne or throwing the kindom into a bloody civil war with Winter coming sure as hell isn't good.


You're confusing Lawful Good with Lawful Nice. Paladins are lawful good and they can be some serious a-holes. Nothing like strict rigidity to some god's moral code to excuse the trampling of rights or even lives.
 
2012-05-03 03:22:26 PM  

mongbiohazard: Warrener: Anyone that when given a choice between keeping the acknowledged heir on the throne or throwing the kindom into a bloody civil war with Winter coming sure as hell isn't good.

You're confusing Lawful Good with Lawful Nice. Paladins are lawful good and they can be some serious a-holes. Nothing like strict rigidity to some god's moral code to excuse the trampling of rights or even lives.


For example, Tywin Lannister is lawful good. He's served by evil, horrendous men and he himself is a giant farking tool, but he himself is a good man, and serves the law and the realm first.
 
2012-05-03 03:22:31 PM  

mongbiohazard: So can you provide some specific examples to support your claim?


GRapeRapeM pointed out during an interview that the political maneuverings were primarily based on the maneuvering between the various powers involved in the War of the Roses?

And no, I don't have a citation. I've heard it several times from several people, and there are some parallels between WotR and GoT; especially in the first book. House Stark, IIRC, is equivalent to House York and the Lannisters are essentially a stand-in for the Lancasters. As the series has gone on he's moved away from this into his own little (perpetually unfinished) world.
 
2012-05-03 03:22:54 PM  
Then they would be boring caricatures of people caught in an illogical fantasy world, oh wait this is The Game of Thrones they are boring caricatures of people caught in an illogical fantasy world, never mind carry on.
 
2012-05-03 03:25:40 PM  

Sybarite: Chaotic neutral characters like to indulge in everything. This is the insurgent, the con-man, gambler, and high roller; the uncommitted freebooter seeking nothing more than self-gratification...According to chaotic neutrals, laws and rules infringe on personal freedom and were meant to be broken. . . Jack Sparrow is probably the best example of a truly chaotic neutral character in popular culture.


Short-sighted individuals probably qualify as CN by default, but CN's scope is bigger than that. Libertarians, anarchists and survivalists can all fall into CN. What they have in common is that they don't value the rule of law (chaotic) nor do they view society through any moralistic lens (neutral). It's entirely possible to have some hard-partying irresponsible "scoundrel" that's more than happy to work within the system, even very active in politics. The only relevant correlation here is that commoners (i.e., those with little political influence) with a preference for vices tend to clash with "lawful" societies that try to regulate their behavior. But that's narrowing the concept down to modern American "liberal" and "conservative" wedge issues. What about some noble that likes to pass all sorts of moralistic decrees to which royalty are explicitly exempt? LN, arguably even LE, but fits the stereotypical CN criteria.

Solon Isonomia: Either the author doesn't understand the alignments, didn't real the books too closely, or both.


Maybe the author based everything entirely on watching the show? That would result in a lot of missing/modified context.

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Everyone would be Neutral Evil except Stannis, who's Lawful Neutral, Tyrion, who's just Neutral, and Joffrey, who's Chaotic Evil. Oh, and Jon Snow, who is Lawful Knows Nothing.


One problem in using strict alignments is that GRRM likes to portray characters from different viewpoints. That makes them complex or inconsistent, depending on how you interpret it.
 
2012-05-03 03:28:20 PM  

mongbiohazard: So can you provide some specific examples to support your claim?


Apart from directly from Mr. Rape Rape Martin himself? cite

Don't have a direct link handy, but it's there in several quotes from the author himself.
 
2012-05-03 03:29:26 PM  

PonceAlyosha: Tywin Lannister is lawful good. He's served by evil, horrendous men and he himself is a giant farking tool, but he himself is a good man, and serves the law and the realm first.


I'm pretty sure Tyrion's first wife might disagree with you on that whole "he himself is a good man" thing.
 
2012-05-03 03:34:08 PM  

FightDirector: Solon Isonomia: FightDirector: knightofargh: SpoilerAlert: What other lists could we make up?

What farker would they be?

Robert Baratheon = Drew Curtis
Cersei = Grable's Daughter
Tyrion = Pocket Ninja
Jon Snow = Gat_00
Hodor = meowsaysthedog
Joffery = Bevets


Hmmm...I like this game...

Dude, if anyone is Hodor it's Bevets. That whole repeating the same thing over and over bit...

Ah, see...I was going with "generates a desire to repeatedly and alternatively punch in the face and the dick" as my primary metric for "who should be Joffery".

And just because somebody took the screen name from a GoT cast member doesn't automatically make them the best farker for the role.


Okay, yeah, that's a good metric for Joffrey, that prick.
 
2012-05-03 03:35:29 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: PonceAlyosha: Tywin Lannister is lawful good. He's served by evil, horrendous men and he himself is a giant farking tool, but he himself is a good man, and serves the law and the realm first.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion's first wife might disagree with you on that whole "he himself is a good man" thing.


Well, if education is important to good-aligned characters then that's just example of Tywin teaching Tyrion where whores go.
 
2012-05-03 03:36:02 PM  

Ennuipoet: I tend to think of CE as a full on despotic warlord, without council or laws to prop him, maintaining his power through complete and utter violence.


That's a common interpretation, but I think it blurs the line between CE and NE. I think the main symptoms of CE are a lack of empathy combined with no regard for consistency. So, it could also be a spoiled King who delegates everything to a bureaucracy whenever he's not exploiting his power for self-indulgence. The people might view their society as something entirely different, but only because the "chaotic" side completely isolates the CE ruler from anything going on.

The difference is that the "lazy" CE ruler typically loses power, since no effort is made to retain it. Without the willingness to back power with violence, most CE characters aren't inclined to control land in the first place. It's not in their nature; after all, the very concept of controlled territory is a legal construct. Most CE characters with any sort of ambition for power would have more in common with a territorial apex predator. Any action would be provoked through jealousy or perception of threat, not out of any interest in what goes on within said territory.
 
2012-05-03 03:39:01 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: PonceAlyosha: Tywin Lannister is lawful good. He's served by evil, horrendous men and he himself is a giant farking tool, but he himself is a good man, and serves the law and the realm first.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion's first wife might disagree with you on that whole "he himself is a good man" thing.


Yeah, that's horrendously dickish, but that a person can be personally objectionable and still end up being the

dragonchild: That's a common interpretation, but I think it blurs the line between CE and NE. I think the main symptoms of CE are a lack of empathy combined with no regard for consistency. So, it could also be a spoiled King who delegates everything to a bureaucracy whenever he's not exploiting his power for self-indulgence. The people might view their society as something entirely different, but only because the "chaotic" side completely isolates the CE ruler from anything going on.

The difference is that the "lazy" CE ruler typically loses power, since no effort is made to retain it. Without the willingness to back power with violence, most CE characters aren't inclined to control land in the first place. It's not in their nature; after all, the very concept of controlled territory is a legal construct. Most CE characters with any sort of ambition for power would have more in common with a territorial apex predator. Any action would be provoked through jealousy or perception of threat, not out of any interest in what goes on within said territory.


That describes Joffrey perfectly.
 
2012-05-03 03:40:11 PM  
Mostly agreed.

I'd call Tyrion Neutral Good, however. He does seem to help those where he can, and doesn't really harm others, except in particular instances of rage. He does, arguably, drift to at least Neutral over the course of the books.

Jaime is a classic example of alignment drift. He's probably CE to start, but drifts away from that after certain events later in the series.

I think that Baelish is CE. He doesn't really seem to care about order, or agreements, or anything but himself. It's pretty textbook CE. The difference between him and Joff (who I'd also argue is CE) is that Baelish is *smart* and *effective*, while Joff is a pouting child with too much power.

Tywin LG? I'd argue with that. Probably LN.

dragonchild: Libertarians, anarchists and survivalists can all fall into CN. What they have in common is that they don't value the rule of law (chaotic) nor do they view society through any moralistic lens (neutral).


I think there's a slight difference here. I think the libertarian view is that, in general, government should not be legislating morality. There's a huge difference between that and being entirely amoral themselves, or even believing that society should be amoral (where it's closer, IMHO, to say that the belief is that government is not the entirety of "society," and government's place should not be to dictate morality.)

mongbiohazard:
You're confusing Lawful Good with Lawful Nice. Paladins are lawful good and they can be some serious a-holes. Nothing like strict rigidity to some god's moral code to excuse the trampling of rights or even lives.


That's a poor player of a paladin, IMHO, and should probably suffer alignment drift to LN with all of the appropriate consequences.
 
2012-05-03 03:43:41 PM  
Hi guys, what is this Game of Thorns thingy y'all are talking about. It sounds kinds dumb.
 
2012-05-03 03:43:54 PM  
The author is clearly limiting this to what we know so far in the HBO series and not the books.

Varys and Littlefinger are separated only by the fact that Varys said he'd like to help Ned but couldn't whereas Littlefinger outright betrayed him.

And without being too Spoilierish, what we know from Dance with Dragons is that Varys is still holding his alliances with the Targeryeans .


Overall it seems silly to argue over the article. People can read the same book and read different things out of it. Go to the asoiaf forums and you can see that very clearly. The same with The Walking Dead tv show.

Two people can see the same thing and have different valid opinions. That's the point of narratives.
 
2012-05-03 03:46:23 PM  

PonceAlyosha:
Tywin: Lawful Good


notsureifserious.jpg

I would describe what he did to Castamere as going above and beyond what was required in dealing with a rebellion - not the acts of a good person. Similarly, what he did - and does- to Tyrion over his story is almost enough to put him in the evil area. He is a -terrible- person.
 
2012-05-03 03:47:38 PM  
Someone put them in one of those 3x3 charts. I'm not going through another TL;DR io9 list
 
2012-05-03 03:48:44 PM  

kyoryu: I think there's a slight difference here. I think the libertarian view is that, in general, government should not be legislating morality.


My intention isn't to strictly define libertarianism in alignment terms. That would make this conversation political and I'm having too much fun to go there. That said, I've yet to see a decisive consensus even among libertarians as to what the word means, so I'm using some of the wiggle room provided there. Some libertarians fall into the scope of CN if they're the sort that believe government should be "as small as possible", with only the vaguest notions of whatever "small enough" could be. Those with more specific definitions might not, and more power to them.
 
2012-05-03 03:50:05 PM  

kyoryu: That's a poor player of a paladin, IMHO, and should probably suffer alignment drift to LN with all of the appropriate consequences.


History disagrees with you on that one.
 
2012-05-03 03:50:06 PM  

JokerMattly: PonceAlyosha:
Tywin: Lawful Good

notsureifserious.jpg

I would describe what he did to Castamere as going above and beyond what was required in dealing with a rebellion - not the acts of a good person. Similarly, what he did - and does- to Tyrion over his story is almost enough to put him in the evil area. He is a -terrible- person.


I really believe he's the only person on that continent that upholds any form of a social contract. I do believe he is a nefarious bastard though.
 
2012-05-03 03:51:02 PM  
I know a guy in RL who is TOTALLY lawful evil, so I have to disagree with their placement of littlefinger. He is really lawful evil, not neutral. He uses the rules and laws of the land to his advantage, to manipulate people and situations to his own end. To me, that is really the definition of lawful evil. When you want to picture lawful evil, think of your average congresscritter. They are using the laws and systems in place for solely their own advancement, nothing else.
 
2012-05-03 03:52:17 PM  

FightDirector: knightofargh: SpoilerAlert: What other lists could we make up?

What farker would they be?

Robert Baratheon = Drew Curtis
Cersei = Grable's Daughter
Tyrion = Pocket Ninja
Jon Snow = Gat_00
Hodor = meowsaysthedog
Joffery = Bevets


Hmmm...I like this game...


Then why are you so bad at it?
 
2012-05-03 03:52:28 PM  
Sansa: Neutral bone-numbing stupid.
 
2012-05-03 03:52:49 PM  

Tarl3k: I know a guy in RL who is TOTALLY lawful evil, so I have to disagree with their placement of littlefinger. He is really lawful evil, not neutral. He uses the rules and laws of the land to his advantage, to manipulate people and situations to his own end. To me, that is really the definition of lawful evil. When you want to picture lawful evil, think of your average congresscritter. They are using the laws and systems in place for solely their own advancement, nothing else.


Exactly. They use the laws not because they believe in them, but because that's the easiest, safest way for them to get what they want.
 
2012-05-03 03:52:57 PM  

PonceAlyosha: I really believe he's the only person on that continent that upholds any form of a social contract.


I'm just having a hard time understanding how having your son's wife gangraped (and forcing your son to participate unknowingly) is upholding the social contract.
 
2012-05-03 03:58:51 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Tarl3k: I know a guy in RL who is TOTALLY lawful evil, so I have to disagree with their placement of littlefinger. He is really lawful evil, not neutral. He uses the rules and laws of the land to his advantage, to manipulate people and situations to his own end. To me, that is really the definition of lawful evil. When you want to picture lawful evil, think of your average congresscritter. They are using the laws and systems in place for solely their own advancement, nothing else.

Exactly. They use the laws not because they believe in them, but because that's the easiest, safest way for them to get what they want.


Just because you write the laws does not make you lawful. If you are not beholden to stare decisis and your past precidents you are chaotic.
 
2012-05-03 04:02:08 PM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Everyone would be Neutral Evil except Stannis, who's Lawful Neutral, Tyrion, who's just Neutral, and Joffrey, who's Chaotic Evil. Oh, and Jon Snow, who is Lawful Knows Nothing.


What you did there, I see it, wildling.
 
2012-05-03 04:03:28 PM  

redmond24: Two people can see the same thing and have different valid opinions. That's the point of narratives.


It depends. Sure, sometimes the author is deliberately vague, or unintentionally inconsistent. For example, one common trick is to tell the story through an "unreliable narrator" wherein the story is left incomplete (on purpose) because it's filtered through a biased POV. So yeah, sometimes things are left to interpretation. But in other cases, the author has a specific message and some people are just flat-out bad at reading comprehension.

Without specifically referring to GRRM's work (I'm disagreeing with your general point and want to keep this simple), my point is, differing valid opinions can only co-exist as a result of A) the specific intention of a well-crafted narrative, or B) a bad (inconsistent) one.

A public Internet forum can't agree? Well, duh. That's not proof of anything. "Everyone's entitled to an opinion" is a transparent attempt to elevate morons to the same level as people who actually think. In reality, opinions are weighted whether you like it or not. Every country's entitled to print their own currency but you don't see many investors treating Zimbabwe's cash like one.
 
2012-05-03 04:04:16 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: kyoryu: That's a poor player of a paladin, IMHO, and should probably suffer alignment drift to LN with all of the appropriate consequences.

History disagrees with you on that one.


Really? I don't remember the historical paladins with magical healing abilities and the ability to magically smite evil and ride magic horses.

Man, they sure passed over the cool stuff in my history classes.

PonceAlyosha:
I really believe he's the only person on that continent that upholds any form of a social contract. I do believe he is a nefarious bastard though.


Holding up a social contract (emphasis on 'contract') is more of a Lawful tendency than a Good one.
 
2012-05-03 04:04:31 PM  

Icetech3: Man.. i just finished book 3 and its farking BRUTAL... EVERYONE dies..... every page is like WTF!!!! BTW.... you can't spoil shiat the books have been out for 20 years... read them.. 100X better than the show...


The thing I've noticed about the books..so far...it that those who have any sense of decency are not vanquished by battle, but only by deception and treachery.
 
2012-05-03 04:05:48 PM  

Egoy3k: Tyrion was not true neutral he's one of the most 'good' characters in the whole series.

I'm glad they didn't include Jamie Lannister in the list. because they'd either be flat our wrong or spoil it for people who haven't read the books.

Spoliers...

I told my wife, "yeah Jamie is kind of a dick at first but you'll end up liking him." She flat out refused to believe that he turns out to not be such an asshole until she finally caught up with the books.


THIS.
 
2012-05-03 04:07:10 PM  

clovis69: knightofargh: It's GoT, mostly Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil with an occasional sprinkling of Chaotic Evil for flavor.

Bah. I give you the baddest ass of all Westeros

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Barristan_Selmy

Lawful Good along with Brienne of Tarth


Very true...and in the books (from what I've read so far) she is the only character that acts like a knight in the truest sense.
 
2012-05-03 04:11:15 PM  

Frothy Panties: Very true...and in the books (from what I've read so far) she is the only character that acts like a knight in the truest sense.


Idealized knight with a sense of chivalry, yes. Historical knights were more of the fight to win and then make up how heroic and honorable of a fight it was. Davos is probably closer to the historical model, at least he obeys the rules.

Gregor Clegane is the other end of the normal spectrum.
 
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