Holy shiat, there was socialists and communists out protesting on May Day?

o5iiawah: quatchi: A company without government regulations can pay people whatever they want

and in a free society, nobody is forced to take a wage that they feel is unfair. A funny thing happens to capitalist's factory when he cant find anyone to work for him.

It becomes a haven for squatters, hobos, and ne'er-do-wells?

karnal: The occupy movement epitomizes what today's liberals have become....attention whores desperately trying to show the world how bold and aggressive they are, while hiding the sad truth that they are just a failed and impotent lost cause.

Did you ever stop and think that maybe, just maybe, the have realized that American has been taken over by multinational corporations and bank? If you can wrap your tiny mind around that then read on ...

Maybe they are exercising the highest form of patriotism?

Just because you are willing to sell your cow for a trickle down of "magic beans" out doesn't mean everyone is.

ordinarysteve
Socialism now means a social democracy (think Canada, Scandinavia) where you have a progressive tax structure and a public social safety net

Social Democracy is a type of socialism.


quatchi
Government must be powerful enough to be able to counter the undue influence of corporations and since the corporate world went international the scales have increasingly gone out of balance in favor of the corporations over government.

fark the government. For the things you listed, the government was largely complicit. It only moves when people organize and fight, and even then it's usually only so that people don't get out of control.


OgreMagi
the fair trade summit

lolololololol

Weaver95: SkinnyHead:
When all the decent people abandon a movement for being too radical, what do you got left? Radicals. Police still have to deal with them.

except that's not what happened. YOU said OWS was weak and powerless....my counter is that if the movement is weak and powerless then why has law enforcement pressure INCREASED. if the movement is weak and powerless, then the cops should be backing off. i'm sure the cops have better things to do than go after a movement that's nothing more than a handful of people, right?

As a political movement, they are weak and powerless. As an unguided mass of communists, anarchists, and other nutjobs they are extremely dangerous with more potential for random violence. There is no contradiction.

quatchi: Pure unfettered capitalism is, asides from being impossible, about as stupid and dangerous as unfettered communism or fascism.

Learn this at some point.

Sooner would work better than later.

pure, unfettered capitalism can do no harm to an individual without the compliance of government. In a society where government protects property rights and fairly addresses contract breaches in court, a corporation can do no harm to an individual than overcast day. A harmed individual would at least have his day in court yet this is not the case.

Behind every evil corporation is a government complicit in its actions.
behind every polluter is a bought and paid for bureaucrat who issued the permit
Behind every corporation who pushes out small business is a government that creates barriers to entry

A corporation has no legal authority to arrest a citizen without compliance from the state. it has no ability to force an individual to support its business without compliance from the state. It has no ability to harm an individual without consequence without compliance from the state.

ordinarysteve: I don't really get what point you're trying to make but most of those are revolutionary marxist/communists, not socialists. There are also some fascists in the mix, which is literally the opposite of a communist. These are pretty basic terms and you should really be able to distinguish between them before you go spouting off. Socialism now means a social democracy (think Canada, Scandinavia) where you have a progressive tax structure and a public social safety net. America has this already to a smaller degree (socialism lite) and is much different from the communist and fascist autocracies that you named.
/you're probably a troll but i'll feed you anyways

According to Marx, there was a progression in the course of man - that eventually he would move towards communism. The first step in this was ultimately socialism which was to be replaced by communism after the strongmen/ politburo decided that things were equal enough and that they would return to the fields and factories with the rest of the workers. Does it surprise you that the government leaders in socialist countries have never given up power to return to the people? Do Hugo Chavez and the Castros wait in line for medical treatment? Do their kids go to state schools? Of course they dont. Thats for everyone else!

Pure socialism only exists on paper. It has been tried scores of times and usually results in one class, ethnicity or group seeking the extermination of another in some brutal airing of grievances.

The playbook however is the same.

divide the people into classes or groups, demonizing one and praising the other
advocate for state control of the media and means of production
eliminate or fight against inheritance
eliminate or fight against property rights
Subhumanize the rebels
create a boogeyman with whom "the people" can always be at war

Folks like you used to say 'but look at social democracy' when talking about Europe as a whole. now, the only place left where it "works" are the nordic states, who have largely rejected the EU, hold massive amounts of resources in reserve, still support an aristocracy and who control 70% of their economy. Greece and Sweden have largely the same governmental structure, Sweden just got lucky that they have oil off their coast.

Dan the Schman: Marx was about the little guy realizing their own power and standing up to the oppressive minority.

Yes, this whole "we will fight without guns, until we have all the guns, then we will set the agenda" (paraphrased) is really sticking up for the little guy

You'd think that after:

Lenin
Stalin
Pol Pot
Chairman Mao
Che Guevara
Fidel Castro
Raul Castro
Hugo Chavez
Hitler
Mussolini
Quisling
Kim Jong Il

and 150,000,000 dead that people would finally realize that the socialists who lead the revolution eventually make up the access class who replace the bourgeois. Socialism is for the people, not the socialist.

Thread observations:
- Republicans has such a great sense of humor. Like yawning...
- They also have such a high level of 6th grade history knowledge. Equal to none...

ohdoublereally: I thought it was the southern democrats that supported slavery, not republicans.

It was. The Democrats were conservative and the Republicans liberal for several decades. That hasn't stopped today's conservative Republican liars from claiming Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt as their own, mind you.

Dwight_Yeast: bugontherug: Crony capitalism is the only capitalism America has ever known. It's why Karl Marx said "government is the executive committee of the capitalist class." I don't know what you mean by "true blue capitalism." Maybe it's similar to the kind of "true blue communism" extreme leftists say never really existed either.


I know you're stupid, but you shouldn't make your ignorance so obvious in public.

It's a historical fact that no nation has ever attempted Marxist-style Communism.

It's also a historical fact that the United States in the 19th century came as close to the libertarian capitalist ideal as any nation has ever come, and that it was a time of EXTREME economic chaos because of the lack of regulation and control.

Communism and Libertarianism have the same problem; both philosophies are EXTREMELY easy to abuse, and, given human nature, they WILL be abused to give a few people extreme power over others. And that leads to oppression and general shiattiness.

Fart_Machine: Not sure how wearing a UAW hoodie is ironic to poor management by GM either since they don't represent them.

Somehow it's the unions fault that the management of GM gave the unions whatever the hell they asked for for decades, even though the unions were happy to start making concessions the moment (in the 1980s) it became clear the good times were over.

gulogulo: And maybe that's a reason not to support the OWS movement any more. Accepting every crazy idea no matter how crazy it is isn't exactly a unifying direction for society or government.

Who said OWS was supposed to be a unifying direction for our society?

gulogulo: You're right. He should make his position more clear so it can't be taken so out of context

You're still making assumptions. He may well have been carrying the banner as an anti-fascist protest. He may have been carrying it because he thought it looked cool.

I will tell you with absolute certainty that the flag in question dates to the 1980s and was made before the fall of the Soviet Union. It is a relic, and relics carry all sorts of meaning.

gulogulo: (who incidentally is worn on shirts by hipsters everywhere whom have no idea that he didn't represent merely freedom as much as he did mass murder and violent oppression).

Meh. You'd have a better argument there if that hadn't been said a thousand times and if hipsters venerated Casto and not Che.

DozeNutz: Sorry, but openly calling for communism/socalism, after its complete failure all over the world, and human rights violations,.

Yeah, "libertarian" economics are so much better. I mean, in the late 19th/early 20th century, America was just peachy for anyone who wasn't obscenely wealthy.

bugontherug: Crony capitalism is the only capitalism America has ever known. It's why Karl Marx said "government is the executive committee of the capitalist class." I don't know what you mean by "true blue capitalism." Maybe it's similar to the kind of "true blue communism" extreme leftists say never really existed either.


I know you're stupid, but you shouldn't make your ignorance so obvious in public.

It's a historical fact that no nation has ever attempted Marxist-style Communism.

It's also a historical fact that the United States in the 19th century came as close to the libertarian capitalist ideal as any nation has ever come, and that it was a time of EXTREME economic chaos because of the lack of regulation and control.

gulogulo: I might express my opinion to think an opinion is immoral and stupid, though. My personal opinion means that if I am supporting a group, it means I'm always willing to turn a critical eye inwards to make sure I agree with what's being said and how it's being said. Wasn't that the cry of the left when the right didn't denounce their wackos?

You're presuming that the OWS movement speaks with a single voice, which it doesn't, as opposed to the Tea Party and other Right Wing ventures, which do.

/There's a big difference between being inclusive and accepting everyone no matter how crazy their are, and embracing the ideas of the most insane and making them your groups' rallying cry.

gulogulo: lunogled: Not a fan of Stalin, Churchill, and especially people who dont understand that history is not a good-bad guys story

What does that have to do with the fact that flying a flag of Stalin as a model ideal for this country is just stupid? No one is claiming history is good vs. bad guy, but I think you'd have a hard time finding people that would find Stalin's methods of leadership preferable to what we have today in U.S. I'd take the Republicans over Stalin any day.

Would you take Churchill over Stalin? If you were an Indian suffering from famine in the 1940s, I would not be so sure.
(India, by the way, would be the example of a country where Stalin is pretty popular as a historical figure More than Churchill)

JerseyTim: As much as this guy is a jackass, you have to admit it takes a special kind of asshole to have a flag with Stalin on it.

We got people in this country that worship Hitler and jerk off to Mein Kampf, so it stands to reason there are assholes on the other side as well.

What I want to know is when it become illegal or immoral to express your political viewpoint in this country, no matter how kooky it may be.

DozeNutz: Headso: DozeNutz: Headso: DozeNutz: Sorry, but openly calling for communism/socalism, after its complete failure all over the world

versus all the successful libertarian states, ever since Russia took on the flat tax everyone there is living in the lap of luxury!

You must mean ever since the USSR dissolved in 1991, when communism failed.

Yeah you can pinpoint when they took on libertarian policies using this graph.
[www.benbest.com image 422x298]

Does that graph count the millions of people who died while living in communist Russia?

yeah and your libertarian policies still made the numbers take a dive, face it, libertarianism is shiattier than communism.

FarkedOver: Because the UAW caused the bailouts?

The people at the bottom are directly responsible for the decisions of the people at the top. That is why I berate customer service folk when they are only telling me what those in charge tell them to tell me.

skullkrusher: QU!RK1019: skullkrusher: It's almost as if both are important

Equally important?

increasingly, yes.

Yet the providers of capital receive a disproportionately large return on their investment. Increasingly disproportionate.

Headso: DozeNutz: Sorry, but openly calling for communism/socalism, after its complete failure all over the world

versus all the successful libertarian states, ever since Russia took on the flat tax everyone there is living in the lap of luxury!

You must mean ever since the USSR dissolved in 1991, when communism failed.

Sorry bro, communism/socialism/Marxism sucks. Ask any former Soviet how he feels about communism, and he might not punch you in the face if you ask nicely enough.

skullkrusher: dude, point was that the automakers were collapsing because of their own fault

The point is that if the credit market was there instead of being devastated, GM could have gone through a normal restructuring without government stepping in as a last resort.

Your blog... it sucks....

wait, am I late to the party?

skullkrusher: FarkedOver: What if they day came, like in some anti-Randian world, the workers said FARK THIS. They stopped working. You can use your own damn widget machine to make and sell your widgets. You wouldn't be able to make any profit whatsoever because you wouldn't have the labor power to produce jack shiat.

the beauty of labor organization.

FarkedOver: Your product has no value unless labor was put into my friend. Kiss your worker's collective asses because you are nothing without them.

and the value of labor is miniscule without capital. It's almost as if both are important, Mr Bang Two Rocks Together To Sharpen A Stick :)

/crap, rocks are capital
//as are sticks

BULLSHIAT!

The value is the skill of the craftsman. He would have this own capital from the fruits of his labors (he derives direct benefit from this work with no middlemen).

We have convinced ourselves to give the majority of true value produced by our labors to do-nothing "capital providers" such as banks.

Debeo Summa Credo: meat0918: You know subby, maybe if we didn't cut funding to elementary and secondary education, as well as vilify intelligence in our society, these kids would be more intelligent, have better opportunities, and generally be busy being employed;

So it's right wingers' fault that Occupy protesters are so farking stupid? That's a new one.

I suggest a new placard be distributed for the next rally: "The 1% Created The Moron Holding Up This Sign"

Well, they did.

They rail against teaching a man to fish, and rail against when we give that man a fish because he doesn't know how to fish.

The My Little Pony Killer: I find it amusing that the people crying "OWS is dead, fizzled out, etc" have essentially been the ones to keep the movement alive by constantly whining about it and therefore, keeping the topics fresh on everybody's mind.

So thanks for that!

This.

I think OWS has already done about as much as it can and has added as much as it will to the national political dialogue, and I'm ready to move onto something else, but the fact that Occupy protests are still ongoing and it annoys the right wing does tickle me.
/I even moderated one of Occupy's "official" live chats when it first started

Mrtraveler01: Geotpf: trotsky: I still would rather deal with the extreme OWS people than the teatard assholes. At least the nutty OWS folks are educated enough to discuss big ideas like what actual socialism is.

I'd wish they'd discuss small ideas like specific laws they want passed. Right now, they are mostly protesting for the sake of protesting, with no goals or demands.

Yeah, that's my biggest compliant too. I mean I like the message and all but goddmanit they're as disorganized and useless as every other left-wing protest group.

They have stated their goals over and over again, it is just that they are ignored by the media while they focus on the protest instead of the message, or they are drowned out by all of the lies from the right. But here is a list from their website. By the way that took me all of 2 seconds to Google.

skullkrusher: FarkedOver: Your product has no value unless labor was put into my friend. Kiss your worker's collective asses because you are nothing without them.

and the value of labor is miniscule without capital. It's almost as if both are important, Mr Bang Two Rocks Together To Sharpen A Stick :)

/crap, rocks are capital
//as are sticks

Capital is not as important as you may think. If all the money in the world just vanished into thin air, would people stop working? No. People will work and continue to change their surroundings (i.e. labor) in order to live and survive. Labor is a natural, capital is not.

trotsky: I still would rather deal with the extreme OWS people than the teatard assholes. At least the nutty OWS folks are educated enough to discuss big ideas like what actual socialism is.

with a handle like that I thought you would take a bit more umbrage with the Stalin flag. The flag was a bit douche.

/marched with wobblies and occupy may day

skullkrusher: I love the idea of worker owned companies. Go for it. Of course, I also am opposed to the idea that the government should steal the company and give it to the workers. Crazy, I know.

After looting pensions and exploiting workers some companies have no right to remain in the hands of private entities.

Debeo Summa Credo: f you use my widget making machine to make widgets, am I entitled to some of the profits from the widget sales? Or because you are a widget maker, you are entitled to use anybody elses widget machine whenever you want?

What if they day came, like in some anti-Randian world, the workers said FARK THIS. They stopped working. You can use your own damn widget machine to make and sell your widgets. You wouldn't be able to make any profit whatsoever because you wouldn't have the labor power to produce jack shiat.

Here's the snag that every capitalist hopes the working class never realizes: Labor will continue without capital, capital cannot continue without labor.

Your product has no value unless labor was put into my friend. Kiss your worker's collective asses because you are nothing without them.

Mikey1969: Yeah, but that 'special kind' of asshole is a part of what makes America great. We allow all kinds, no mater how many times one side tries to squash the others. I have no problems with Communists, not because I believe their principles, but because I believe in their freedom. As long as they aren't infringing on anyone else rights, I'm cool with 'em being there. Same with flag burners, it's their right, just not one that I agree with.

I don't think it was his point to shut them down. I'm an OWS supporter, in general terms, but think it's pretty ignorant to fly a flag of Stalin or Che. Eye-rolling "you're not helping" sort of idiotic. Not all ideas are equal. Some are just plain misinformed and stupid, and I feel it my duty if I really believe in the movement to point out the ideas that I reject. This is one of them.

Capitalism is the collectivization of Capital.

Communism is the collectivization of Labor.

whats the problem? Except that Labor is real and Money is an artificial construct.

I fear I may be a little too late, but really, I never get tired of posting this picture.

It's also less ironic that the same folks who put together this blog praising the wealthy "job creators" who undermined the economy for short term benefit while demonizing unions and other middle-class professionals.

Two things:

1. I say this as a committed, unrepentant capitalist: The robber baron scumbag crony capitalism which is slowly impoverishing most of us and weakening our national economy is what the OWS people are pissed about AND is the strongest recruiting tool communism may ever have had. We really have a system of oligarchic corruption being perpetuated between our political and business elites... but it's being masqueraded as true blue capitalism, even when it isn't, and that's giving actual well regulated capitalism a bad name.

2. The mainstream media hasn't exactly been all that great to the OWS movement, nor were they at first to the Tea Party - though at least they've been more fawning over the Tea Party since they were absorbed largely as wing of the Republican Party. I'd expect they'd give similar treatment to the OWS movement if it ever allows itself to be absorbed by the Democratic party, like the Tea Party was by the Republicans, because our media has an establishment bias and tends to protect the current political elite structure whose teats they suckle at so deeply.

RedPhoenix122: skullkrusher: RedPhoenix122: skullkrusher: FarkedOver: skullkrusher: Fart_Machine: Wait, the guy was wearing a UAW hoodie? Some guy had a T-shirt supporting teachers?

[neoneocon.com image 323x414]

don't see the irony in a protest in part against corporate bailouts?

Because the UAW caused the bailouts?

Because they were direct beneficiaries of them. Fark you got mine?

Keeping your job != benefiting from bailouts. CEO bonuses, on the other hand....

in what universe?

So, staying exactly where you are is now a benefit?

when in the absence of the corporate bailout you would be unemployed in the midst of a very tough labor market? Yeah, I'd say that's a benefit from the corporate bailout. Wouldn't you?

What's the benefit of air bags? I get to keep living? Pffft! I already do that!

Which is worse? Claiming to support Communism, or Wal-Mart funding it?

I still would rather deal with the extreme OWS people than the teatard assholes. At least the nutty OWS folks are educated enough to discuss big ideas like what actual socialism is.

skullkrusher: Because they were direct beneficiaries of them. Fark you got mine?

Bit of a stretch. They got to keep their jobs (what a major farking windfall!).... maybe it should be an incentive for more working people to organize!

skullkrusher: Fart_Machine: Wait, the guy was wearing a UAW hoodie? Some guy had a T-shirt supporting teachers?

[neoneocon.com image 323x414]

don't see the irony in a protest in part against corporate bailouts?

Because a move to save thousands of middle class jobs from imploding was a giveaway to the 1%?

boo hoo, mainstream media is paying too much attention to OWS......

boo hoo, mainstream media isn't paying enough attention to OWS....

Repubs say these guys are bunch of clowns but I haven't seen them so afraid of one group of people since Nixon went crazy and tried to lock up everyone with hair below their shoulders.

SkinnyHead: Because a bunch of leaderless and powerless disorganized losers can still blow up bridges and kill people.

Don't even go there, shiathead.

Weaver95: JerseyTim: As much as this guy is a jackass, you have to admit it takes a special kind of asshole to have a flag with Stalin on it.

well....the downside to OWS is that you can't screen out the idiots. so if you walk around a protest long enough and are diligent, you can find pictures of people waving all kinds of stupid things.

to be fair, you can do the same things to the tea party idiots. its just that OWS never authorizes weapons. But on the sign thing, i'm willing to give the teabaggers the benefit of the doubt so long as they do the same for OWS.

To be fair, it's not really fair to compare these signs to the signs you see at tea party rallies. Most of those signs weren't all that stupid. Open the borders? Karl Marx quotes? Marx was about the little guy realizing their own power and standing up to the oppressive minority.

I was ready to cringe at painfully inane signs, but instead was met with a sh*tty blog with signs that would outrage tea partiers and not many others.