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(Some Guy)   "LONG LIVE COMMUNISM" and other Occupy Chicago pictures you won't see in the mainstream media   (libertynews.com) divider line 309
    More: Dumbass, Occupy Chicago, communist revolution, Chicago School, Joseph Stalin, apartheid, May Day, religion and politics, International Workers of the World  
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3502 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 May 2012 at 1:39 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-03 03:30:17 PM

bugontherug: Why thank you. I agree too that the 19th century America, with its slavery, subjugation of women, wars of imperial aggression, and more comes closest to "true" capitalism the world has ever seen.


For the market to be free, there must be no controls, and that include no social controls. If the markets dictates that I can own another human being, who are you to take that right from me?

/honestly not sure what your point is
 
2012-05-03 03:30:18 PM

Dwight_Yeast: nk of when I think of "freedom."


Eh, not sure how you'd call what happened post Batista a model for the U.S., either. Is that what you're suggesting, or are you saying there's another point to flying the flag?
 
2012-05-03 03:33:17 PM

Dan the Schman: I was ready to cringe at painfully inane signs, but instead was met with a sh*tty blog with signs that would outrage tea partiers and not many others.


As others have pointed out, the Stalin flag was pretty genuinely offensive and there _is_ a certain irony in the UAW being present at a protest that's anti-bailout, given that one of our biggest bailouts was almost directly to the UAW (albeit via the companies they dominate).

But yeah, most of the signs weren't outright stupid, except the Israel one and the Greece one, and those were just stupid in context, not stupid in themselves.
 
2012-05-03 03:36:03 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: FarkedOver: Debeo Summa Credo: LOL. And you have no widget making machine without my capital. Good luck finding enough berries to feed your family if you remove your labor from the workforce.

The workers will stand idly by while you hoard your precious things.

Ah yes "Give us your stuff or we'll kill you".

Why don't communists and other far-left anarchists just start with the extortion angle instead of waiting until all their embarrassing economic arguments are shot down? It would save everyone time.


If every idea or position had to be rock solid to move an agenda the right wing would not be so powerful.
 
2012-05-03 03:36:35 PM

gulogulo: Eh, not sure how you'd call what happened post Batista a model for the U.S., either. Is that what you're suggesting


Che was out of Cuba by 1965 and dead by 1967, so I'm not sure how much you can blame him for in what happened "post-Batista".
 
2012-05-03 03:36:37 PM
At least they can spell.
 
2012-05-03 03:36:49 PM

Dwight_Yeast: bugontherug: Why thank you. I agree too that the 19th century America, with its slavery, subjugation of women, wars of imperial aggression, and more comes closest to "true" capitalism the world has ever seen.

For the market to be free, there must be no controls, and that include no social controls. If the markets dictates that I can own another human being, who are you to take that right from me?

/honestly not sure what your point is


Ah. Well played. 7/10.

My original point was to call attention to the similarity between Marxist ideologues and capitalist ideologues. Both preserve the fantasy of their systems' functionality by saying, "well, it's never really been tried." Then, after you essentially agreed with me while calling me stupid, my point was to call attention to the fact that you agreed with me while calling me stupid.
 
2012-05-03 03:37:42 PM

Jim_Callahan: given that one of our biggest bailouts was almost directly to the UAW


It was to companies that agreed to union demands.
 
2012-05-03 03:38:12 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Why don't communists and other far-left anarchists just start with the extortion angle instead of waiting until all their embarrassing economic arguments are shot down?


Question: do you think this nonsense up yourself, or is someone else feeling it to you?
 
2012-05-03 03:40:02 PM

bugontherug: Why thank you. I agree too that the 19th century America, with its slavery, subjugation of women, wars of imperial aggression, and more comes closest to "true" capitalism the world has ever seen.


To be fair, while communism is a fairly specific model of economic (and governmental) organization, capitalism is more of a broad category encompassing basically any system that uses private property. There's sort of an argument to be made that there's a "true" or "pure" brand of Communism, but you really can't say the same of Capitalism. Most variants of socialism, for instance, fall just as thoroughly into the category as Keynesian or free-market economies.

//The exception being straight-up Marxist socialism, which attempts to abolish private property on the way to transitioning into communism. But frankly no one does that, because at this point the Communist transition is empirically established to never end well.
 
2012-05-03 03:40:43 PM

skullkrusher: heh just snarkin'. Depending on how it was structured. Either is possible. Could be based on production, hourly, % of profits, whatever. The important distinction is that he is not entitled to an equal share of the profits - he isn't the one who saved up to buy the lathe and taking the risk - of course I am free to give it to him but there is no obligation.


I don't disagree with you on this. I don't think he's entitled. And I don't feel there is any obligation to proportionately reward labor other than purely ethical reasons. I was just objecting to any notion that mere providers of capital (as opposed to business owners and operators like you described) were disproportionately deserving of returns on investment.
 
2012-05-03 03:40:48 PM

Dwight_Yeast: LordJiro: Communism and Libertarianism have the same problem; both philosophies are EXTREMELY easy to abuse, and, given human nature, they WILL be abused to give a few people extreme power over others. And that leads to oppression and general shiattiness.

Indeed. Events of the last few years have made me into a Socialist of the pre-Marx variety; Capitalism needs strong social controls and Socialism needs money from capital to work. Capital and Labor should work together, not against each other.

Germany is in the midst of proving that a strong Socialist democracy is far more stable than whatever the hell we've got. They're only feeling the effects of the recession because they're having to bail everyone else out.


so your saying that Germans are national socialists.
 
2012-05-03 03:41:59 PM

bugontherug: Then, after you essentially agreed with me while calling me stupid


I called you stupid because you are actually stupid. Your post history here bears that out (I made a note of it).

bugontherug: My original point was to call attention to the similarity between Marxist ideologues and capitalist ideologues. Both preserve the fantasy of their systems' functionality by saying, "well, it's never really been tried."


Okay, that's great! But the fact that SOME protesters at OWS are calling for a Marxist Communist revolution doesn't mean that ALL protesters support such a revolution. Most are much more moderate and interested more in wealth disparity and lack of industry (especially banking) regulation do to its systematic dismantlement over the last 30 years.
 
2012-05-03 03:42:12 PM

Citrate1007: At least they can spell.


oh yeah?

farm7.static.flickr.com
 
2012-05-03 03:42:50 PM

SkinnyHead: The Occupy Movement sure fizzled fast. I predicted that would happen. Once the true colors of the movement were exposed and the whole thing turned violent, decent people got out.


My god Skinnyhead. You have a cult following for your troll posts. You'd think they'd have caught on by now, but you get them every time. This one wasn't even offensive.
 
2012-05-03 03:43:54 PM

yert: so your saying that Germans are national socialists.


Democratic Socialists. They stopped being particularly Nationalist a few decades back, except for the Bavarians, and the state of Bavaria is one of the biggest stock-holders in BMW and VW.

/yes, I got the joke
 
2012-05-03 03:43:57 PM

Dwight_Yeast: gulogulo: Eh, not sure how you'd call what happened post Batista a model for the U.S., either. Is that what you're suggesting

Che was out of Cuba by 1965 and dead by 1967, so I'm not sure how much you can blame him for in what happened "post-Batista".


Fair enough, though there is yet some dispute of just how much of a "humanitarian" he was when he was alive. That said, going back to an older point, if you saw someone flying a banner with "KKK" on it at a Tea Party rally, would you yet make the same argument that 'you don't know where they're coming from as he hasn't had a chance to express himself?' or would you think perhaps that no matter what that argument is, if it could be so easily misinterpreted that perhaps it is not the best symbol for your argument? For instance, if I went to a pro-Palestinian rally and flew the Swastika because it meant "peace" to some cultures, I think it would be pretty reasonable to have quite a few people misinterpret my intentions. I'd be an idiot for carrying it.
 
2012-05-03 03:44:08 PM
Communists protestors are like bratty little brothers at these events. You can't send them home and they'll follow you wherever you go.
 
2012-05-03 03:45:00 PM

Headso: Debeo Summa Credo: FarkedOver: Debeo Summa Credo: LOL. And you have no widget making machine without my capital. Good luck finding enough berries to feed your family if you remove your labor from the workforce.

The workers will stand idly by while you hoard your precious things.

Ah yes "Give us your stuff or we'll kill you".

Why don't communists and other far-left anarchists just start with the extortion angle instead of waiting until all their embarrassing economic arguments are shot down? It would save everyone time.

If every idea or position had to be rock solid to move an agenda the right wing would not be so powerful.


Well, the idea or position at least it has to not be pants-on-head retarded, like stating that capital is completely dependent on labor but labor doesn't need capital.
 
2012-05-03 03:45:30 PM

gulogulo: Fair enough, though there is yet some dispute of just how much of a "humanitarian" he was when he was alive.


Who claimed he was a humanitarian? He was a revolutionary, and you don't have a revolution without breaking eggs (ask Washington).

Are you trolling or randomly changing the subject because you don't know how to have a rational argument?
 
2012-05-03 03:45:49 PM

QU!RK1019: skullkrusher: heh just snarkin'. Depending on how it was structured. Either is possible. Could be based on production, hourly, % of profits, whatever. The important distinction is that he is not entitled to an equal share of the profits - he isn't the one who saved up to buy the lathe and taking the risk - of course I am free to give it to him but there is no obligation.

I don't disagree with you on this. I don't think he's entitled. And I don't feel there is any obligation to proportionately reward labor other than purely ethical reasons. I was just objecting to any notion that mere providers of capital (as opposed to business owners and operators like you described) were disproportionately deserving of returns on investment.


I think we're again mixing terms. When I refer to capital I am talking about investing in physical capital and putting it to use in the classical sense, not the people who loan money to buy that sort of capital. While I do work in the latter industry (to the degree that a hedge fund does), the former is what is noble about capitalism - and true to the sense of the word. There is nothing noble about pushing money around although that is a necessary aspect and it does tend to pay pretty well.
 
2012-05-03 03:46:29 PM
The Tea Party is pissed that the Occupy people not only had the gall to protest in less than comfortable weather, they're also starting up an an ungodly time of year as well?
 
2012-05-03 03:46:56 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Well, the idea or position at least it has to not be pants-on-head retarded, like stating that capital is completely dependent on labor but labor doesn't need capital.


You really don't understand basic economics, do you?
 
2012-05-03 03:47:21 PM

mongbiohazard: bugontherug: mongbiohazard: 1. I say this as a committed, unrepentant capitalist: The robber baron scumbag crony capitalism which is slowly impoverishing most of us and weakening our national economy is what the OWS people are pissed about AND is the strongest recruiting tool communism may ever have had. We really have a system of oligarchic corruption being perpetuated between our political and business elites... but it's being masqueraded as true blue capitalism, even when it isn't, and that's giving actual well regulated capitalism a bad name.

Crony capitalism is the only capitalism America has ever known. It's why Karl Marx said "government is the executive committee of the capitalist class." I don't know what you mean by "true blue capitalism." Maybe it's similar to the kind of "true blue communism" extreme leftists say never really existed either.


Call me idealistic, but I just see it simply as boring, properly regulated capitalism. What we have now is oligarchic bullshiat with politicians bending over backwards to funnel trucks full of cash to each other and their buddies in the elite - that's contrary to healthy capitalism.


Remove or otherwise minimize the influence of big business on government in a free democracy, and what do you get?

Canada. Australia. England, etc. I.e., liberal social democracy, or "market socialism," or whatever label you want to slap on it.

You don't get any purer strain of capitalism. You get government a little more responsive to the will of the people, and little less responsive to the will of big business, than in the US.

I'm not saying I think your oligarch critique is wrong. I'm just saying it's what we have, or a government further left. I happen to be okay with a government further left, so maybe we can agree that it's best to diminish the role of big business on government.
 
2012-05-03 03:48:25 PM

IXI Jim IXI: The Tea Party is pissed that the Occupy people not only had the gall to protest in less than comfortable weather, they're also starting up an an ungodly time of year as well?


And that they're drawing bigger numbers than the Tea Party ever did.

/last Tea Party protest here brought out 20 people
//May Day closed a number of blocks in CC Philly because of the number of protesters.
 
2012-05-03 03:49:10 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Well, the idea or position at least it has to not be pants-on-head retarded, like stating that capital is completely dependent on labor but labor doesn't need capital.


saying there will be a panel of people that determine who lives and who dies helped move the right wing agenda in the healthcare debate. Saying Obama is a muslim with a fake birth certificate helped move the right wing agenda.
 
2012-05-03 03:50:48 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Are you trolling or randomly changing the subject because you don't know how to have a rational argument?


Why are you suddenly being rude? I've been polite, while you've failed to address some of the issues I've brought up to you. When I try to redirect you back to them, you accuse me of trolling? Are you just moving the goalposts?
 
2012-05-03 03:51:06 PM

IXI Jim IXI: The Tea Party is pissed that the Occupy people not only had the gall to protest in less than comfortable weather, they're also starting up an an ungodly time of year as well?


OCCUPY!!! *

*not valid Nov 1 - April 30
 
2012-05-03 03:52:01 PM

gulogulo: Dwight_Yeast: Are you trolling or randomly changing the subject because you don't know how to have a rational argument?

Why are you suddenly being rude? I've been polite, while you've failed to address some of the issues I've brought up to you. When I try to redirect you back to them, you accuse me of trolling? Are you just moving the goalposts?


because he's a farking asshole with nothing of interest to say so he goes that direction instead. Just realizing that now?
 
2012-05-03 03:54:23 PM

Dwight_Yeast: IXI Jim IXI: The Tea Party is pissed that the Occupy people not only had the gall to protest in less than comfortable weather, they're also starting up an an ungodly time of year as well?

And that they're drawing bigger numbers than the Tea Party ever did.

/last Tea Party protest here brought out 20 people
//May Day closed a number of blocks in CC Philly because of the number of protesters.


And they've not accomplished a thing yet other than getting a conversation started (which is good, but not nearly enough). That's something, but this whole concept of "we don't need a unifying idea" is not going to get very far. When their list of demands includes "stop animal testing" then you see where a hodgepodge of anything goes loses a lot of credibility as a political movement. Say what you will about the insanity of the Tea Parties, but they actually effected change. Bad change, in my view, but they did something because they had a cohesive set of ideas that they could push.
 
2012-05-03 03:54:31 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Debeo Summa Credo: Well, the idea or position at least it has to not be pants-on-head retarded, like stating that capital is completely dependent on labor but labor doesn't need capital.

You really don't understand basic economics, do you?


Of course I do.
 
2012-05-03 03:55:31 PM

skullkrusher: because he's a farking asshole with nothing of interest to say so he goes that direction instead. Just realizing that now?


Fair enough. I should have recognized that when he called you a troll and had you on ignore.
 
2012-05-03 03:55:37 PM

Jim_Callahan: o be fair, while communism is a fairly specific model of economic (and governmental) organization, capitalism is more of a broad category encompassing basically any system that uses private property. There's sort of an argument to be made that there's a "true" or "pure" brand of Communism, but you really can't say the same of Capitalism. Most variants of socialism, for instance, fall just as thoroughly into the category as Keynesian or free-market economies.


I agree with your broad definition of capitalism in relation to private property. But those who I refer to as "capitalist ideologues" would disagree with it. Talk to a Randist/ hard right libertarian, and some of them won't even agree America has ever been capitalist at all. In their minds, at least, there is a "true" or "pure" brand of capitalism. And if it has ever been tried, it was only so in Iceland several hundred years ago.
 
2012-05-03 03:57:12 PM

skullkrusher:

OCCUPY!!! *

*not valid Nov 1 - April 30


As I remember, OWS didn't shut down until early December. Occupy Providence was still out in the park close to New Year's.

The Tea Party, however, was busy making excuses about how they couldn't get snow tires for Hoverrounds...
 
2012-05-03 03:57:49 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Debeo Summa Credo: Well, the idea or position at least it has to not be pants-on-head retarded, like stating that capital is completely dependent on labor but labor doesn't need capital.

You really don't understand basic economics, do you?


for that matter, neither does most of wall street....
 
2012-05-03 03:59:35 PM
the ows crowd doesn't know who is pulling their puppet strings.
 
2012-05-03 03:59:54 PM

IXI Jim IXI: skullkrusher:

OCCUPY!!! *

*not valid Nov 1 - April 30

As I remember, OWS didn't shut down until early December. Occupy Providence was still out in the park close to New Year's.

The Tea Party, however, was busy making excuses about how they couldn't get snow tires for Hoverrounds...


don't harsh my joke, man

/they were kicked out of Zucotti on Nov 15th though
 
2012-05-03 04:00:33 PM

gulogulo: skullkrusher: because he's a farking asshole with nothing of interest to say so he goes that direction instead. Just realizing that now?

Fair enough. I should have recognized that when he called you a troll and had you on ignore.


he needs insulation
 
2012-05-03 04:02:27 PM

Dwight_Yeast: You make posts I often disagree with. Because I am a thin-skinned pathological narcissist who can't handle being contradicted, I marked your posts as "stupid." Publicly cutting down other people makes me feel better about my mother's failure to express enough love for me to develop a healthy sense of self-worth.


Narcissistic personality disorder is famously difficult to treat, if for no other reason than that the narcissist is loath to admit he has a problem. For example, I bet you'll contradict this very post, rather than recognizing it for the healing message it is, and seek out a competent psychotherapist.
 
2012-05-03 04:03:42 PM

skullkrusher: /they were kicked out of Zucotti on Nov 15th though


True, but they were still wandering around after that.

I guess they were homeless...
 
2012-05-03 04:08:21 PM

FlashHarry: jesus - how many "THE MAINSTREAM MSM MEDIA ISNT COVERING OWS!!!!!11!!!" posts are we going to get green-lit today?


Came here to say this. Or, rather: How many 'THE MAINSTREAM MSM MEDIA ISN'T WHOLEHEARTEDLY ATTACKING OWS TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL ELSE!!!111!!111!' threads are we going to get greenlit today?

/Seriously, until the journalists involved can learn the meaning of the word 'unbiased', I'd rather they farked themselves in the ass than covered OWS.
//They're an embarrassment to their profession.
 
2012-05-03 04:09:22 PM

bugontherug: Narcissistic personality disorder is famously difficult to treat, if for no other reason than that the narcissist is loath to admit he has a problem. For example, I bet you'll contradict this very post, rather than recognizing it for the healing message it is, and seek out a competent psychotherapist.


I could handle the narcissism if he was offering stunning brilliance in his analysis and prose. A smart asshole, after all, still has interesting things to say even if I find the way they say things distasteful. Alas...
 
2012-05-03 04:09:54 PM

colon_pow: the ows crowd doesn't know who is pulling their puppet strings.


And the Teabaggers know EXACTLY who are pulling theirs.

/Fox, ALEC, the GOP...
 
2012-05-03 04:13:35 PM

DozeNutz: Sorry bro, communism/socialism/Marxism sucks. Ask any former Soviet how he feels about communism, and he might not punch you in the face if you ask nicely enough.


Gee, reminds me of a recent BoingBoing post

Lenin and Stalin still have a posse

boingboing.net
 
2012-05-03 04:14:14 PM

skullkrusher: I think we're again mixing terms. When I refer to capital I am talking about investing in physical capital and putting it to use in the classical sense, not the people who loan money to buy that sort of capital. While I do work in the latter industry (to the degree that a hedge fund does), the former is what is noble about capitalism - and true to the sense of the word. There is nothing noble about pushing money around although that is a necessary aspect and it does tend to pay pretty well.


Oh cool. We see eye to eye then. Right on, brotherman!
 
2012-05-03 04:15:05 PM

Weaver95: JerseyTim: As much as this guy is a jackass, you have to admit it takes a special kind of asshole to have a flag with Stalin on it.

well....the downside to OWS is that you can't screen out the idiots. so if you walk around a protest long enough and are diligent, you can find pictures of people waving all kinds of stupid things.

to be fair, you can do the same things to the tea party idiots. its just that OWS never authorizes weapons. But on the sign thing, i'm willing to give the teabaggers the benefit of the doubt so long as they do the same for OWS.


A few just authorized bombs on an Ohio bridge. Still waiting for the tea party bomb plot.
 
2012-05-03 04:15:41 PM

Vlad_the_Inaner: Lenin and Stalin still have a posse


Wow...I thought Buddy Hackett was dead.
 
2012-05-03 04:17:53 PM

MyRandomName: A few just authorized bombs on an Ohio bridge


Got any proof anyone from OWS authorized that?
 
2012-05-03 04:28:00 PM

Weaver95: Mrtraveler01: Geotpf: trotsky: I still would rather deal with the extreme OWS people than the teatard assholes. At least the nutty OWS folks are educated enough to discuss big ideas like what actual socialism is.

I'd wish they'd discuss small ideas like specific laws they want passed. Right now, they are mostly protesting for the sake of protesting, with no goals or demands.

Yeah, that's my biggest compliant too. I mean I like the message and all but goddmanit they're as disorganized and useless as every other left-wing protest group.

[images2.dailykos.com image 550x506]


Ok. They are against Economic Injustice. That's lovely.

Now, what specific laws do they want passed?

[crickets chirping]
 
2012-05-03 04:29:26 PM

skullkrusher: oh yeah?


Should have been "Sighed" at the end.

skullkrusher: When I refer to capital I am talking about investing in physical capital and putting it to use in the classical sense, not the people who loan money to buy that sort of capital.


So, what are your thought's on Karl Marx's statement that "Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -- and what does it imply about Republican politics?
 
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