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(NFL)   I said SAINTS' DEFENSIVE LEADER JON VILMA LIKES PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY ABOUT AS MUCH AS YOU'D EXPECT   ( nfl.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Saints, Jonathan Vilma, Scott Fujita, Roger Goodell, Brett Favre, Gregg Williams, Kurt Warner, NFC Championship Game  
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1730 clicks; posted to Sports » on 03 May 2012 at 8:28 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-03 10:29:14 AM  

ihatedumbpeople: I"m a tad surprised as well...a full season with the 'evidence' they've released so far is pretty rough. The guys that have admitted it (Hargrove and Harper) got half the time (and no time in Harper's case). I know he was the defensive captain, but you can't take a player out for a whole season without some strong evidence.

My feeling is the Gregg Williams suspension was valid...audio proved the guy was an asshole. but so far, no evidence has come out to show Vilma specifically participated, funded or otherwise had anything. Hopefully they appeal...I understand WHY the NFL is doing it (hello concussion lawsuits), but seemingly random suspensions isn't the answer.


Well, the "evidence" doesn't have to come out publicly. This isn't a criminal trial, it's a disciplinary action in an employment context. An internal investigation found multiple independent sources who confirmed Vilma's involvement in the injury bounty scheme. Under the rules governing NFL player discipline, the commissioner imposed punishment as a result of what the investigation revealed. Now Vilma has an appeal process available to him. His attorneys can attack all of the people who independently confirmed that Vilma participated in the bounty program. They can make every argument they'd like that Vilma did not do what others say he did. And if there is truly no proof as Vilma claims, then he should win his appeal.

But if it comes down to Vilma's credibility versus multiple credible sources who contradict him, good luck to Vilma.
 
2012-05-03 10:36:17 AM  

Magorn: I heard LaVarr Arrington talking about this on his radio show the other days and I have to say he made a very good point about this (and remember he played for Gregg Williams back when Williams was with the Skins):

When you are a pro football player, your job, and furture career prospects are heavily depndant on keeping your coaches happy. If you don't "buy in" to your coaches philosophy, or worse yet refuse an order from him, you can easily find yourself benched, and labelled as having a "bad attiude" or a "poor work ethic" which will destroy any chances you might have of playing for another team or getting a decent free agent contract.

Even if what your boss told you to do was wrong, how many of you would be willing to risk your job, and possibly your entire career, to stand up to him?

Is it therefore totally fair to punish players, at least this harshly, for obeying their coaches?


More likely, it's a culture that Vilma, and all other players involved, have seen everywhere they've been, at every level, and they've grown accustomed to it.

"I've seen it everywhere, and I've never seen anyone be punished for it, and even my coaches are encouraging it."
 
2012-05-03 10:39:54 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: degenerate-afro: The fact that he is being pointed out as being a "dirty" player, yet rarely if ever did anything illegal on the field makes this pretty suspect IMO.

You don't have to hit someone illegally in football to intentionally injure them.


You don't have to hit them illegally, but you do have to hit people in football. So if he's doing nothing but normal football hits on a player AND doing them within the context of the game AND not going above and beyond to the level that would make an official notice anything out of the ordinary, does that make him "the dirtiest player to ever play the game" as some people are making this out to be?
 
2012-05-03 10:41:09 AM  
As Brett farve said. "we aren't playing flag football"
This all seems bullshat to me. The league has fines and suspensions in place for illegal hits, if he wasn't fined for those then this shat is moot. How the hell is tackling hard and playing strong D a fookin suspension?
 
2012-05-03 10:44:23 AM  

romanmike_27: As Brett farve said. "we aren't playing flag football"
This all seems bullshat to me. The league has fines and suspensions in place for illegal hits, if he wasn't fined for those then this shat is moot. How the hell is tackling hard and playing strong D a fookin suspension?


I thought the commissioner made it pretty clear that the suspensions handed out had nothing to do with play on the field. Did I misread something?

Throughout this entire process, the Saints have yet to be punished for any actual on-the-field activities. Everything has been confined to what went on in the locker room.
 
2012-05-03 10:56:22 AM  

drewsclues: Adolf Oliver Nipples: His statement is bullshiat. They would never have put him in the dock for a year if they didn't have the goods, it would be too easy to disprove. It's just more pro-forma denial from a guy who got caught being a douchebag. He certainly can't come clean about it, he'll be crucified by his fellow players. You know, the ones he aimed to hurt.

The real question is, will this stop players from trying to hurt other players? No. It's football. Trying to knock the other guy out of the game is a VALID strategy that will be used by EVERY team this season. This whole debacle is pointless.


No, intentionally injuring someone is not a valid strategy and never should be. You wanna hit someone so that it hurts, fine. You wanna hit someone so that they take a serious injury, no good.
 
2012-05-03 10:59:17 AM  

SuperChuck: You wanna hit someone so that it hurts, fine. You wanna hit someone so that they take a serious injury, no good.


How do you ... wait, what?
 
2012-05-03 11:03:10 AM  

bulldg4life: I mean, there are guys that have been in federal PMITA and didn't get that type of suspension (yeah yeah, Vick was suspended the whole time he was in prison). People who could probably be considered drug dealers, violent felons, and even other people who violated serious NFL rules.


Which, to me, is precisely why the league should suspend Vilma for longer than Vick, Burress, et al. Criminal matters are handled by the criminal justice system; they relate to crimes against society; and the criminals pay their debts to society (by being incarcerated, which is a much, much worse punishment than just being given time off). Arguably, the NFL need not even get involved in those cases. What Vilma did1 is a violation of NFL rules, and it's for the NFL to mete out punishment.


1 Assuming truthfulness of allegations, which Vilma disputes.
 
2012-05-03 11:04:08 AM  

Slow To Return: SuperChuck: You wanna hit someone so that it hurts, fine. You wanna hit someone so that they take a serious injury, no good.

How do you ... wait, what?


For the very slow: hurt means you can continue to play. Injured means you can't. Sometimes injuries happen during the normal course of play, but intent to injure a player should be taken extremely seriously. If Vilma encouranged attempts to injure then the year-long suspension is more than warranted.
 
2012-05-03 11:09:39 AM  

romanmike_27: As Brett farve said. "we aren't playing flag football"
This all seems bullshat to me. The league has fines and suspensions in place for illegal hits, if he wasn't fined for those then this shat is moot. How the hell is tackling hard and playing strong D a fookin suspension?


Yeah, as much as a lot of folks seem to hate on Favre, he never once came out against guys that 'apparently' tried to take him out...he took the high road and basically said what you quoted...it's football...
 
2012-05-03 11:13:06 AM  
To threadjack another football thread with unrelated football news, T-Sizzle tore his A-Chizzle and will miss the 20-Twizzle season.
 
2012-05-03 11:14:23 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: For the very slow: hurt means you can continue to play. Injured means you can't. Sometimes injuries happen during the normal course of play, but intent to injure a player should be taken extremely seriously.


So, how would you show that someone was tackling in order to injure as opposed as in order to hurt someone? There is genuinely no way to legitimately answer this question.
 
2012-05-03 11:18:43 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: To threadjack another football thread with unrelated football news, T-Sizzle tore his A-Chizzle and will miss the 20-Twizzle season.


Aw, that's too bad... I was looking forward to the Steelers' rookie DiCastro making him look like a punk this year. Looks like Murderin' Ray has to drag his tired old bones out and make it happen on his own this year.
 
2012-05-03 11:18:52 AM  

IAmRight: AdmirableSnackbar: For the very slow: hurt means you can continue to play. Injured means you can't. Sometimes injuries happen during the normal course of play, but intent to injure a player should be taken extremely seriously.

So, how would you show that someone was tackling in order to injure as opposed as in order to hurt someone? There is genuinely no way to legitimately answer this question.


Deliberate head and knee shots are fairly easy to determine. If a player goes very high or very low while obviously in control of his actions it's a pretty clear case of intent to injure. If the player's body position puts him between the level of an opposing player's hips and chest then he's OK. But the issue here is that the Saints coaches and players encouraged teammates to attempt to injure opposing players and that's also worthy of punishment.
 
2012-05-03 11:19:20 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: If that's your stance, why does it matter that a player leads with his head or goes for knees? It's part of the game, right?


Those are offenses that get penalties and fines, right? Illegal plays one might say?

You can play the game hard and clean yet still be professional about it. If someone gets hurt as a consequence, them's the breaks. But actively trying to hurt somebody is way out of line.

Exactly. Why, I wonder, do we not see a higher proportion of injured players and personal fouls against the Saints?

It's a tempest in a teapot is what it is. The program was wrong. It had to be stopped. But the fact of the matter is the program didn't do anything. Empty talk.
 
2012-05-03 11:21:34 AM  

ihatedumbpeople: Yeah, as much as a lot of folks seem to hate on Favre, he never once came out against guys that 'apparently' tried to take him out...he took the high road and basically said what you quoted...it's football...


That's because, as much as he gets hated on around here, he's as tough a sumbiatch as anyone that ever laced them up.
 
2012-05-03 11:21:38 AM  

IAmRight: AdmirableSnackbar: For the very slow: hurt means you can continue to play. Injured means you can't. Sometimes injuries happen during the normal course of play, but intent to injure a player should be taken extremely seriously.

So, how would you show that someone was tackling in order to injure as opposed as in order to hurt someone? There is genuinely no way to legitimately answer this question.


You're absolutely right. So the NFL is going to return James Harrison's fine money?
 
2012-05-03 11:21:42 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hurt means you can continue to play. Injured means you can't


Oh, I get that.

Just so I'm clear. If I'm an NFL player, and I am hitting Favre with intent to only hurt him, that's cool, but, if in the act of trying to only hurt him, I accidentally hit him just a little bit too hard and cross that threshold from hurt to injure, that's not cool?
 
2012-05-03 11:21:54 AM  

IAmRight: Adolf Oliver Nipples: If that's your stance, why does it matter that a player leads with his head or goes for knees? It's part of the game, right?

Because the actual action should be punished. Punishing "intent" is stupid, because you're putting yourself in a position where you think you know what's going on in someone's head.

Does it hurt more getting tackled by Vilma, who was potentially being paid to injure, or by James Harrison, who just loves hitting people in the head, and is willing to pay lots of money in order to do it over and over?


Meh. People make arguments like this in discussions of criminal justice all the time, usually in the context of hate crimes. This argument doesn't carry any weight. The law can and does make distinctions in terms of intent. If you kill someone because you caught him farking your wife, it's a long-term jail sentence; if you kill someone because he's a judge or a witness, it could be a capital crime. Intent matters, always has.
 
2012-05-03 11:21:55 AM  
ALL CAPS IS BAD! IT LEADS TO THINGS LIKE DELETING THE POLITICS TAB!
 
2012-05-03 11:22:35 AM  
A year is a bit much, I don't think any of them should have gotten as much as the coaches. He's had plenty of time though to come out and make a statement though or cooperate with the investigation.

The players are not helping themselves though with all these lawsuits for head injuries while simultaneously fighting everything related to safety.
 
2012-05-03 11:25:47 AM  
ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-05-03 11:25:59 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Deliberate head and knee shots are fairly easy to determine. If a player goes very high or very low while obviously in control of his actions it's a pretty clear case of intent to injure.


The funny thing is, in all the looped footage on ESPN of hard hits by Saints players, the only hit that falls in the category of "deliberate head and knee shots" is the McCray hit on Favre, for which he was fined.

I did, however, see a "deliberate head shot" on Pierre Thomas in the Saints/49ers game last year. Is that what you're referring to?
 
2012-05-03 11:26:10 AM  

JohnBigBootay: ihatedumbpeople: Yeah, as much as a lot of folks seem to hate on Favre, he never once came out against guys that 'apparently' tried to take him out...he took the high road and basically said what you quoted...it's football...

That's because, as much as he gets hated on around here, he's as tough a sumbiatch as anyone that ever laced them up.


that he is...that he is.
 
2012-05-03 11:26:44 AM  

Slow To Return: AdmirableSnackbar: hurt means you can continue to play. Injured means you can't

Oh, I get that.

Just so I'm clear. If I'm an NFL player, and I am hitting Favre with intent to only hurt him, that's cool, but, if in the act of trying to only hurt him, I accidentally hit him just a little bit too hard and cross that threshold from hurt to injure, that's not cool?


It's not how hard you hit him. It's if you place a dirty hit on him that injures him, that's the issue. I liked the Saints strategy that year of just beating the everloving shiat out of the older QBs they faced in the playoffs. They absolutely rocked Favre and Warner whenever they got the chance - and they did so (for the most part IIRC) completely legally. When a QB is getting hit on nearly every play, even if it's not very hard, then on every other play he's thinking about being hit and might make bad decisions like Warner, Favre, and Manning did in those games.
 
2012-05-03 11:28:46 AM  

degenerate-afro: I'm curious. How many "on the field" penalties did Vilma have while this whole bounty gate scandal was happening? Honestly I can only think of one or two instances. The fact that he is being pointed out as being a "dirty" player, yet rarely if ever did anything illegal on the field makes this pretty suspect IMO.


There are a lot of penalties that dont get called for the sake of "letting them play" just read a few books and you can see players trying to injure other players is not new but while they were usually just trying to slow a guy down, these people are trying to give them catastrophic career ending injuries.

They wouldnt suspend him this long with out hard evidence, I suspect they wanted to suspend more but only got those they had solid evidence that were dirty.

Now I just hope they go back and say hes being fined at his old pay scale before his contract restructuring.
 
2012-05-03 11:30:04 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Deliberate head and knee shots are fairly easy to determine. If a player goes very high or very low while obviously in control of his actions it's a pretty clear case of intent to injure.


So James Harrison, who has hit several players intentionally in the helmet, gets one game after several incidents. Vilma was fined for one helmet-to-helmet hit of Eli Manning that I can find. (Mark Sanchez was fined for going after Vilma's knees, interestingly enough). But he deserves a year for what amounts to what, exactly? The Saints were no more penalized than anyone else. They weren't fined any more than anyone else for illegal hits.

So it comes down to the money.

Stop pretending it's about safety, because it's clearly not.
 
2012-05-03 11:30:36 AM  

IAmRight: AdmirableSnackbar: For the very slow: hurt means you can continue to play. Injured means you can't. Sometimes injuries happen during the normal course of play, but intent to injure a player should be taken extremely seriously.

So, how would you show that someone was tackling in order to injure as opposed as in order to hurt someone? There is genuinely no way to legitimately answer this question.


I think having tape of a team talking about intentionally trying to hurt someone, paying players who hurt someone and having players on the field celebrating about an opponent being hurt and saying "he's out of the game, pay me!" are a good start
 
2012-05-03 11:33:38 AM  

Slow To Return: AdmirableSnackbar: Deliberate head and knee shots are fairly easy to determine. If a player goes very high or very low while obviously in control of his actions it's a pretty clear case of intent to injure.

The funny thing is, in all the looped footage on ESPN of hard hits by Saints players, the only hit that falls in the category of "deliberate head and knee shots" is the McCray hit on Favre, for which he was fined.

I did, however, see a "deliberate head shot" on Pierre Thomas in the Saints/49ers game last year. Is that what you're referring to?


don't forget the hit from Harper on Steve Smith about 3 yards into the endzone (Harper, no suspension btw)
 
2012-05-03 11:33:59 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: You're absolutely right. So the NFL is going to return James Harrison's fine money?


Well, clearly he was in on the Saints' bounty program, as evidenced by all his helmet-to-helmet hits. So he should be suspended for probably three years, as there's actual evidence that he was attempting to injure, rather than Vilma's ONE incident in the years in question.

Super Chronic: Intent matters, always has.


Intent matters IF SOMETHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS. Intent typically doesn't result in roughly 16x the punishment of someone carrying out the event.

If you pay someone to kill someone else, does the hit man (without killing anyone) get a larger punishment than people who actually go out and commit murder?
 
2012-05-03 11:36:02 AM  

ihatedumbpeople: (Harper, no suspension btw)


That's what makes the punishments more laughable. Guys who actually did things like that are not punished.
 
2012-05-03 11:36:26 AM  

IAmRight: Well, clearly he was in on the Saints' bounty program, as evidenced by all his helmet-to-helmet hits. So he should be suspended for probably three years, as there's actual evidence that he was attempting to injure, rather than Vilma's ONE incident in the years in question.


No there's not. You can't divine intent, and recordings or interviews don't count either. That is, if I am to take the things you're saying in this thread at face value.
 
2012-05-03 11:38:43 AM  

IAmRight: AdmirableSnackbar: Deliberate head and knee shots are fairly easy to determine. If a player goes very high or very low while obviously in control of his actions it's a pretty clear case of intent to injure.

So James Harrison, who has hit several players intentionally in the helmet, gets one game after several incidents. Vilma was fined for one helmet-to-helmet hit of Eli Manning that I can find. (Mark Sanchez was fined for going after Vilma's knees, interestingly enough). But he deserves a year for what amounts to what, exactly? The Saints were no more penalized than anyone else. They weren't fined any more than anyone else for illegal hits.

So it comes down to the money.

Stop pretending it's about safety, because it's clearly not.


Meh...i dont' think Harrison even intentionally targets the head area. he always seems to be aiming chest/shoulder height...but there's a problem...the guys he's tackling don't stand still for him. Heck, the McCoy hit wasn't that bad if you focus on the whole play, and not just the hit. McCoy was an active running when harrison launched at him, he was even changing direction slightly as Harrison planted to make the tackle.

It's football folks...people get hit by 260lb muscles with pads on.
 
2012-05-03 11:41:24 AM  
They should give him another year for such an absurd statement
 
2012-05-03 11:42:48 AM  

IAmRight: Super Chronic: Intent matters, always has.

Intent matters IF SOMETHING ACTUALLY HAPPENS. Intent typically doesn't result in roughly 16x the punishment of someone carrying out the event.


Tell that to the "subway bomber" who just got convicted of conspiracy in Brooklyn.
 
2012-05-03 11:44:03 AM  

JohnBigBootay: ihatedumbpeople: Yeah, as much as a lot of folks seem to hate on Favre, he never once came out against guys that 'apparently' tried to take him out...he took the high road and basically said what you quoted...it's football...

That's because, as much as he gets hated on around here, he's as tough a sumbiatch as anyone that ever laced them up.


Well I am sure his painkiller addiction was helped by all that pain.
 
2012-05-03 11:45:58 AM  

ihatedumbpeople: Meh...i dont' think Harrison even intentionally targets the head area.


So the guy with multiple fines for helmet-to-helmet shots isn't trying to do it, but the guy who has racked up one such event is clearly trying to do it.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: No there's not. You can't divine intent, and recordings or interviews don't count either. That is, if I am to take the things you're saying in this thread at face value.


Hey, I'm just making your argument. A guy illegally hitting an opponent to the point that he gets fined once in the past several years, but might make extra money from it, is 16x as bad as the guy illegally hitting opponents multiple times, and doing it just because he likes it.
 
2012-05-03 11:46:11 AM  

ihatedumbpeople: n't forget the hit from Harper on Steve Smith about 3 yards into the endzone (Harper, no suspension btw)


That was a deliberate shot, but not a deliberate head or knee shot.
 
2012-05-03 11:47:22 AM  

IAmRight: ihatedumbpeople: (Harper, no suspension btw)

That's what makes the punishments more laughable. Guys who actually did things like that are not punished.


Again, the punishments are NOT for on-the-field actions. Goodell, I thought stated that quite clearly.
 
2012-05-03 11:48:47 AM  

Super Chronic: Tell that to the "subway bomber" who just got convicted of conspiracy in Brooklyn.


did he get 16x the punishment of people who actually blew a subway up?
 
2012-05-03 11:50:59 AM  

Slow To Return: ihatedumbpeople: n't forget the hit from Harper on Steve Smith about 3 yards into the endzone (Harper, no suspension btw)

That was a deliberate shot, but not a deliberate head or knee shot.


He was going for the hit to the head but pulled off a bit when he realized he was way too late, also if you are going to pick someone then smith was the wrong guy to choose, that guy is tough as hell. Some players have issues with getting hit while others will keep taking hit and then get up and laugh at you.
 
2012-05-03 11:51:49 AM  

IAmRight: ihatedumbpeople: Meh...i dont' think Harrison even intentionally targets the head area.

So the guy with multiple fines for helmet-to-helmet shots isn't trying to do it, but the guy who has racked up one such event and apparently encouraged others to do it is clearly trying to do it.


FTFY. And as I've said many times, you should punish the intent and not the outcome of a play. Harrison was fined and suspended for the outcomes of plays where an opposing player put his own head between himself and Harrison, which unfairly gave Harrison a reputation as a dirty player. Offensive players should bear the consequences for lowering their heads into obvious contact zones just as defensive players have a duty to not hit offensive players high or low.
 
2012-05-03 11:53:38 AM  

steamingpile: He was going for the hit to the head but pulled off a bit


Going for the head but pulling off, and actually hitting the head, aren't two entirely different things?
 
2012-05-03 11:54:04 AM  
IAmRight: Hey, I'm just making your argument. A guy illegally hitting an opponent to the point that he gets fined once in the past several years, but might make extra money from it, is 16x as bad as the guy illegally hitting opponents multiple times, and doing it just because he likes it.


No, a guy who puts other people up to it by laying money on the table for it is 16x as bad.

You need not make my arguments for me. You're having enough trouble with your own.
 
2012-05-03 11:54:41 AM  

ihatedumbpeople: Meh...i dont' think Harrison even intentionally targets the head area. he always seems to be aiming chest/shoulder height...but there's a problem...the guys he's tackling don't stand still for him.


I agree. That's what galls me about all the arm chair qb's in here advocating for form tackles like they did in jr high school. Those are great of course when the stars align for you to do it like that. The rest of the time you bring them down how the hell ever you can do it. Harrison gets picked on because he's a meathead. And he plays defense - half the time the offensive guys 'cause' the contact by doing the natural thing in a stress situation and ducking, but the flag always goes to the defensive guy. But you can sit there in each and every game and pick out at least five helmet to helmet hits that don't get called. If the zebras don't throw a flag and the guys in the booth don't re-run the play or mention it it's like it never happened.
 
2012-05-03 11:55:50 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: the outcomes of plays where an opposing player put his own head between himself and Harrison, which unfairly gave Harrison a reputation as a dirty player.


Oh those rascally offensive players, trying to get themselves severe brain trauma in order to portray the gentle Mr. Harrison as a monster!
 
2012-05-03 11:59:07 AM  

IAmRight: Oh those rascally offensive players, trying to get themselves severe brain trauma in order to portray the gentle Mr. Harrison as a monster!


Harrison has some dirty hits. He's also got some fines for plays that could not reasonably be avoided by a guy doing what he's supposed to be doing that probably would not have been fined if there was a different name on his jersey. You're an NBA fan - you know damn well some guys get calls and some guys don't.
 
2012-05-03 12:00:04 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: No, a guy who puts other people up to it by laying money on the table for it is 16x as bad.


You know, you just made me think of something. Vilma did this in college in Miami. He did this in the pros in New Orleans. But I'm sure he was 100% clean and innocent while in New York, though, right?
 
2012-05-03 12:01:15 PM  
Would Mr Vilma feel better if he found out that Goodell pocketed a $50K bounty for taking him out for the season?
 
2012-05-03 12:01:20 PM  

Slow To Return: steamingpile: He was going for the hit to the head but pulled off a bit

Going for the head but pulling off, and actually hitting the head, aren't two entirely different things?


I guess, in the same was as attempted murder and murder charges, its all in if you go through with it..........

His suspension is not fair, he should be gone longer if they have enough proof, and it will be interesting to see how many personal foul calls go against the saints this year, I cant be alone in thinking they will be watched a lot closer than other teams.
 
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