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(Mother Nature Network)   Becoming a vegetarian is the healthiest thing you can do for your body, as long as you don't mind an increased risk of colorectal cancer, lower bone mineral density, and insufficient levels of Omega-3 Fatty Acid   (mnn.com) divider line 176
    More: Scary, colon cancers, food chemistry, cancer mortality rates, University of Idaho, medical doctors, vegetarians, yeast extract, bone mineral  
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6041 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 May 2012 at 10:17 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-05-03 10:56:48 AM
I immediately thought of Stewart from the Big Bang Theory: "I'm 37..and I have the bone density of an 80 year old man!"
 
2012-05-03 10:57:17 AM

Spiralmonkey: WhippingBoy: You know how some no vegetarians consider fish to be a vegetable? Well I'm a vegetarian that considers beef and pork and chicken to be vegetables.

Go veg!


/off to pick some bacon

FTFY

If you eat fish you are not vegetarian, you are pescetarian.

I'm vegetarian, and I really don't care what anyone else eats - I do, however, get annoyed at people who say they're vegetarian "except for fish". The fish have a better grasp of language than these people.


If you ate more bacon you'd mellow out.
 
2012-05-03 10:57:41 AM

NewWorldDan: chimp_ninja: Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much

It's possible. I know a vegan who subsists primarily on deep fried tofu and beer. Turns out you can get fat living a strict vegan diet.


You certainly can. Often, for someone who claims to have been a vegetarian for a while but still looks/sounds fat, bet on frying, cheese, or tons of grains being the culprit.

No, mac-n-cheese and jalapeno poppers are not health foods, meat or no.
 
2012-05-03 10:58:34 AM

chimp_ninja: NewWorldDan: chimp_ninja: Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much

It's possible. I know a vegan who subsists primarily on deep fried tofu and beer. Turns out you can get fat living a strict vegan diet.

You certainly can. Often, for someone who claims to have been a vegetarian for a while but still looks/sounds fat, bet on frying, cheese, or tons of grains being the culprit.

No, mac-n-cheese and jalapeno poppers are not health foods, meat or no.


shiat, most of the fatty mcfatness in the American diet comes from processed grains and HFCS. They're vegan.
 
2012-05-03 10:58:54 AM

AbbeySomeone: BillCo: I'm sort of a round-about vegetarian. Pigs and cows eat vegetables and I eat them. Problem solved.

I enjoy being at the top of the food chain.

The greatest hazard to being vegetarian is inspiring animosity in those you attempt to force your agenda on.


So much this! I really farking hate when those goddamn vegatarians come knocking on my door, handing me copies of The VegTower, and the Book of Vegan, asking me if I've found Vegatables. And boy am I pissed every time some fundamentalist Vegan group claims that this country is founded on Vegetarian principles, and if I want to eat meat, I should go live somewhere else. Not to mention all those Vegetarian legislators, trying to outlaw the eating of meat, and funnelling my tax dollars to fundy Vegetarian organizations. Why, just the other day, a bunch of radical Vegetarians tried to indoctrinate my children to the Vegetarian Agenda.
 
2012-05-03 10:59:13 AM
Vegans would be able to increase bone density and Omega 3 fatty acid concentration if they just ate red meat and fish.

Problem solved.
 
2012-05-03 10:59:27 AM

chimp_ninja: 3) Under Problem #3, "Lower bone mineral density", they cite precisely one study, then conclude by noting "The authors claim that the "magnitude of the association is clinically insignificant."


Overall, very nicely done. As I have a distant-past history with, and passing interest in, this specific area, I followed the link to the cite.

Yeah, it's a "meta-analysis" by three epi database grinders (with no degrees given in the author notes? but maybe that's the style of that journal), making it even less noteworthy. I'm shocked they found a significant difference at all, and that they did might actually make me wonder if there's something there...

... if diet studies weren't -notoriously- bad. Anything based on a food frequency questionnaire should be looked at with serious skepticism. Even controlled-intake diets are tough and can be dubious. Toss in that BMD can be wildly unreliable depending on the study design and execution and... well, yeah. Then layer meta-analysis over the top? I've certainly now wasted too much time on this "point," and I really hope no one will use it, at this point in studying the relationship, as a reason for one diet choice or another.

/ however, I might be willing to accept it as a small point in a "this area needs more real science done" funding argument
 
2012-05-03 10:59:27 AM

dennysgod: Scary? We're omnivores, our ancestors where omnivorous, our closest living relative, the Chimpanzee is an omnivorous (they form hunting parties to bring down larger animals), I would have used the obvious tag.

/you'll eat the meat and like it.


Otherwise you don't get any pudding.

/level 5 vegan here, I won't eat anything that casts a shadow.
 
2012-05-03 10:59:59 AM

CheekyMonkey: I really farking hate when those goddamn vegatarians come knocking on my door, handing me copies of The VegTower, and the Book of Vegan, asking me if I've found Vegatables.


You know, that would be some funny shiat.
 
2012-05-03 11:00:40 AM

natazha: B12 is the best argument against the "We are natural vegans".


"Natural Vegans" is an oxymoron.
 
2012-05-03 11:00:46 AM

WelldeadLink: Rapmaster2000: I wouldn't be surprised if pretty much everyone is low on Omega 3. You don't get much of it from cheeseburgers.

Actually, it's in there, cows get it from grass.


None of which they eat at the high density feedlot. Here, we're collectively deficient. I'm not biatching about it, I'm just saying that it's true.

Link
 
2012-05-03 11:01:00 AM

thisisyourbrainonFark: dennysgod: Scary? We're omnivores, our ancestors where omnivorous, our closest living relative, the Chimpanzee is an omnivorous (they form hunting parties to bring down larger animals), I would have used the obvious tag.

/you'll eat the meat and like it.

Otherwise you don't get any pudding.

/level 5 vegan here, I won't eat anything that casts a shadow.


So.................


not even sunlight then??????????
 
2012-05-03 11:01:12 AM

ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

Look, either you care about the sum total of suffering on the planet or you don't. You don't get to ride the high horse about eating meat while making use of gelatin and leather and so on.


Wait are you saying that anyone that reduces their meat intake but not to 0% makes no sense, or are you actually aiming this at people that go halfway but gloat and preach?

The latter makes sense, but regardless you're saying the equivalent of "why be a Christian if you aren't going to be a celibate, impoverished monk?" Or why cut down on drinking if you aren't going to be completely dry?
 
2012-05-03 11:01:23 AM

macadamnut: natazha: B12 is the best argument against the "We are natural vegans".

"Natural Vegans" is an oxymoron.


I don't think I have ever heard this argument from someone in person who was abile to maintain a straight face or tie their own shoelaces.
 
2012-05-03 11:02:25 AM

WhippingBoy: In all seriousness, I've been doing a lot of research and soul-searching to try to find the ideal diet (both nutritionally and ethically). I've come to the conclusion that the "best" diet in heavy on fruits and vegetables, but includes moderate amounts of animal protein.

Nutrition: Almost every qualified nutritionist/medical doctor that I've read recommends a diet heavy on fruits and vegetables (no big surprises). But they also recommend moderate amounts of fish (specifically wild salmon) and other animal protein (specifically organic, non-medicated, grass fed beef). Surprisingly, soy and soy products don't come highly recommended due to their high levels of haemagglutinin, goitrogens, and phytates (although I understand that this is somewhat controversial).

Ethics: I struggled with the ethics of requiring that other living beings die so that I can eat. However, I discovered that this issue is not nearly as black and white as some vegetarians/vegans would have you believe. The act of preparing a field (or berry patch, etc.), keeping the crops relatively safe, and harvesting them kills many animals (snakes, moles, mice, etc.). So no matter how you slice it (no pun intended), *something* had to die for your organic tofu. In addition, some of these vegan-friendly products need to be shipped great distances, requiring the burning of fossil fuels, etc.


Humans need to fill their stomachs with grain once or twice a day, fruits and veg once a day, and fill their stomachs with meat once a day to get the super rugged idealized bodies people seem to want. At least, that's what I basically derived by looking at tons and tons of nutrition logs and reading crap tons of articles on health and nutrition. It also makes intuitive sense: That's digging up two or three tubers, eating five or six handfuls of some kind of grass, and catching and eating a small bird or rodent. Put in a non hippy dippy way, that's 120 to 200g (500 to 800 calories) of protein, 100gish (400ish) of carbs, and another 100g (~1000 calories) of the right kinds of fats, and enough fiber to make sure that everything you eat today is completely out of your digestive track by tomorrow.

Eat for the body want. If you want to (like I do) look like a predator capable of hunting small animals, you need to eat and exercise like a predator that hunts small animals.
 
2012-05-03 11:04:00 AM
My friend works at a restaurant where a local vegan RAVES about the mac and cheese... . my buddy finds it too funny to tell her that their mac and cheese starts with a handful of finely diced pancetta in the pan, and the mac and cheese is baked in pork fat. MUUUUhhhhhahahahahahaha.
 
2012-05-03 11:04:15 AM

ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.


What about "lapsed vegetarians"? People who were once ethical vegetarians but have since resumed consumption of meat.
At one point they equated (or claimed to equate) the eating of animals with cannibalism. Suddenly, it's now OK to eat meat? How do you rationalize *that*?
 
2012-05-03 11:04:36 AM

macadamnut: natazha: B12 is the best argument against the "We are natural vegans".

"Natural Vegans" is an oxymoron.


My friend's annoying girlfriend (now thankfully ex): My yoga instructor says eating meat isn't natural.
Me: Humans have consumed meat for hundreds of thousands of years. It's been confirmed in the fossil record. Even our closest genetic relative, the chimpanzee, eats meat.
My friend's annoying girlfriend (now thankfully ex): Well, I don't believe that.
Me in my head: Ahhhhh!!! You can't will away facts because they're inconvenient!!
 
2012-05-03 11:04:36 AM

ph0rk: Plus, plants feel pain too, asshole.


How do you define a plant feeling pain without a nervous system or self awareness? Automatically healing injury chemically at a local level isn't pain...
 
2012-05-03 11:04:49 AM

NewWorldDan: chimp_ninja: Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much

It's possible. I know a vegan who subsists primarily on deep fried tofu and beer. Turns out you can get fat living a strict vegan diet.


I know a vegan girl who is fat as fark. Like 280+ fat. I don't know how.
 
2012-05-03 11:05:35 AM

WhippingBoy: Ethics: I struggled with the ethics of requiring that other living beings die so that I can eat. However, I discovered that this issue is not nearly as black and white as some vegetarians/vegans would have you believe. The act of preparing a field (or berry patch, etc.), keeping the crops relatively safe, and harvesting them kills many animals (snakes, moles, mice, etc.).


THIS is a strong and often-overlooked (willfully, in many cases) point.

Wish I could find the Time (I think?) magazine article from eons ago that did the math on how many field critters were killed to produce grains and the like. It was a staggering number, and the point, iirc, was that if you were just going on "souls lost to produce food", beef / pigs were a much better choice than bread / pasta / etc.

Fact of the matter is, unless someone figures out how to give humans the ability to photosynthesize, we have to kill things to live. Now, one can choose one's own ethics of how/what dies (and, I might argue, we should all at least give it some thought and make an active decision), but death is unavoidable.
 
2012-05-03 11:06:19 AM

Seth'n'Spectrum: Lots of vegetarians (myself included) are unhealthy because they are lazy vegetarians. Being a vegetarian means you have to pay particular attention to if you're getting enough proteins, vitamins, fats, and oils in your diet.


When my sister was a teenager, she had weight problems as a vegetarian. The culprit: junk food. She cut out meat and poultry but instead of replacing it with beans and salads, she ate a lot of candy and whatnot.

Being intelligent, however, she figured out the problem and has since found the correct balance. Hell, she's so nice to animals that not only does she not eat them, she heals them. Although, with her first doctorate she was constantly attaching electrodes to their brains.... hmmm.
 
2012-05-03 11:06:21 AM

factoryconnection: ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

Look, either you care about the sum total of suffering on the planet or you don't. You don't get to ride the high horse about eating meat while making use of gelatin and leather and so on.

Wait are you saying that anyone that reduces their meat intake but not to 0% makes no sense, or are you actually aiming this at people that go halfway but gloat and preach?

The latter makes sense, but regardless you're saying the equivalent of "why be a Christian if you aren't going to be a celibate, impoverished monk?" Or why cut down on drinking if you aren't going to be completely dry?


Can't it be both?

Someone who reduces meat intake isn't going veg/vegan for ethical reasons, or if they are they have a pretty funny way of implementing it.

As for being a celibate impoverished monk, the bible is full of wacky shiat, but I know many "catholics" who use birth control but maintain they are devout. Similarly, Mormons who "cheat" and drink coke, etc. That is a separate, much more complicated discussion that I'd be happy to have in another thread. Short version: yes.

In this particular case, someone making a moral/ethical argument about animal suffering either must go whole hog or shut the fark up. That means no meat, no cheese, no wool, no ivory, not even horsehide (though horsehide only comes from horses that die of natural causes), no pets, yadda yadda.

The point being that if they go anything less than whole hog they are full of shiat and just attention whoring and/or applying a balm for some other source of guilt.
 
2012-05-03 11:06:35 AM

Keigh: A friend of mine recently came for a visit and she has in the last few years become practically vegan. She says her digestion lets her know if she eats something with, say, chicken broth hidden in it. She'll eat cheese because it's delicious but that gives her gas. She doesn't mind what we eat, but she's pretty militant about GMO and preservatives in her own food.

But, she smokes cigarettes. Kinda makes the rest of the health nut stuff hard to take seriously.


That doesn't sound like a health nut. That sounds like somebody with a protein allergy.

I'm sure she can eat some of the stuff she doesn't, but protein allergies can be pretty nasty, so I don't blame her for sticking with stuff where she knows the effect won't be serious.
 
2012-05-03 11:07:00 AM

WienerButt: NewWorldDan: chimp_ninja: Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much

It's possible. I know a vegan who subsists primarily on deep fried tofu and beer. Turns out you can get fat living a strict vegan diet.

I know a vegan girl who is fat as fark. Like 280+ fat. I don't know how.


Vegetarians can fall into the trap of eating a shiatload of fries because they're everywhere and they taste good compared to other nonmeat things.
 
2012-05-03 11:07:25 AM

factoryconnection: ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

Look, either you care about the sum total of suffering on the planet or you don't. You don't get to ride the high horse about eating meat while making use of gelatin and leather and so on.

Wait are you saying that anyone that reduces their meat intake but not to 0% makes no sense, or are you actually aiming this at people that go halfway but gloat and preach?

The latter makes sense, but regardless you're saying the equivalent of "why be a Christian if you aren't going to be a celibate, impoverished monk?" Or why cut down on drinking if you aren't going to be completely dry?


Well, if you instead make the argument, "Why do you claim to be a Christian when you clearly hate the world", I'd support it...

I think he's railing against the people who don't go all the way but still exercise their rights to judge and belittle people who don't go as far as they do.
 
2012-05-03 11:08:05 AM

ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

Look, either you care about the sum total of suffering on the planet or you don't. You don't get to ride the high horse about eating meat while making use of gelatin and leather and so on.


That's like saying that you either care about pollution or you don't, so get in your Hummer or live in a yurt.

Personally, I'm less concerned about killing animals than I am about the ecological costs of raising them in massive quantities, or the health costs of a high-meat diet. Let's say I cut out 95% of the meat I would have otherwise eaten. I get the health benefits I want-- a little meat from time to time helps with certain nutrients, actually, and the rest is in the noise. I reduce the amount of land/energy/water/etc. needed to produce my meals, but even beans and grains and nuts need that (just less on a per-calorie basis). I save some money, but my food isn't free.

There's always some cost to getting your ~1500-2000 calories per day.
 
2012-05-03 11:08:58 AM
Stick your maw in a tub of boiling meat.
 
2012-05-03 11:09:09 AM

WhippingBoy: ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

What about "lapsed vegetarians"? People who were once ethical vegetarians but have since resumed consumption of meat.
At one point they equated (or claimed to equate) the eating of animals with cannibalism. Suddenly, it's now OK to eat meat? How do you rationalize *that*?


They woke up?

Mr Guy: ph0rk: Plus, plants feel pain too, asshole.

How do you define a plant feeling pain without a nervous system or self awareness? Automatically healing injury chemically at a local level isn't pain...


I am sorry you took that line seriously.

(it really does make the average half-ass vego proselytizer sputter though)
 
2012-05-03 11:09:47 AM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Keigh: A friend of mine recently came for a visit and she has in the last few years become practically vegan. She says her digestion lets her know if she eats something with, say, chicken broth hidden in it. She'll eat cheese because it's delicious but that gives her gas. She doesn't mind what we eat, but she's pretty militant about GMO and preservatives in her own food.

But, she smokes cigarettes. Kinda makes the rest of the health nut stuff hard to take seriously.

That doesn't sound like a health nut. That sounds like somebody with a protein allergy.

I'm sure she can eat some of the stuff she doesn't, but protein allergies can be pretty nasty, so I don't blame her for sticking with stuff where she knows the effect won't be serious.


No, massive fiber deficiency. She's getting gas because the protein is fermenting, and she smokes (and I'll put money on it she also tans a LOT) to offset the mild anorexia with a chemical stimulant (see also: ECA stacks).
 
2012-05-03 11:10:18 AM
When I think of all the vegetarians I've known, there's not a single one of them that hasn't had major health issues - of course a lot of them were mental health issues, but still...
 
2012-05-03 11:10:48 AM

WhippingBoy: In all seriousness, I've been doing a lot of research and soul-searching to try to find the ideal diet (both nutritionally and ethically). I've come to the conclusion that the "best" diet in heavy on fruits and vegetables, but includes moderate amounts of animal protein.

Nutrition: Almost every qualified nutritionist/medical doctor that I've read recommends a diet heavy on fruits and vegetables (no big surprises). But they also recommend moderate amounts of fish (specifically wild salmon) and other animal protein (specifically organic, non-medicated, grass fed beef). Surprisingly, soy and soy products don't come highly recommended due to their high levels of haemagglutinin, goitrogens, and phytates (although I understand that this is somewhat controversial).

Ethics: I struggled with the ethics of requiring that other living beings die so that I can eat. However, I discovered that this issue is not nearly as black and white as some vegetarians/vegans would have you believe. The act of preparing a field (or berry patch, etc.), keeping the crops relatively safe, and harvesting them kills many animals (snakes, moles, mice, etc.). So no matter how you slice it (no pun intended), *something* had to die for your organic tofu. In addition, some of these vegan-friendly products need to be shipped great distances, requiring the burning of fossil fuels, etc.


I went through a similar ethical struggle about 12 years ago. The conclusion I came to is that eating meat is not inherently a bad thing. What is important is how the animal is raised and treated, prior to being killed for meat.

As such, I do not eat any conventional/factory-farmed meat. I have a chest freezer, and buy half a pig every year from a local farmer that I know. I picked up this year's half just the other day, and before loading it into my truck, I walked out to the barn with the farmer to see the next batch of piglets, happily rooting around in their field. I get chickens and eggs from another local farmer. Sometimes one of my friends who hunt will get an extra deer, and I'll have venison for the cost of the butchering.
 
2012-05-03 11:11:25 AM

SFSailor: WhippingBoy: Ethics: I struggled with the ethics of requiring that other living beings die so that I can eat. However, I discovered that this issue is not nearly as black and white as some vegetarians/vegans would have you believe. The act of preparing a field (or berry patch, etc.), keeping the crops relatively safe, and harvesting them kills many animals (snakes, moles, mice, etc.).

THIS is a strong and often-overlooked (willfully, in many cases) point.

Wish I could find the Time (I think?) magazine article from eons ago that did the math on how many field critters were killed to produce grains and the like. It was a staggering number, and the point, iirc, was that if you were just going on "souls lost to produce food", beef / pigs were a much better choice than bread / pasta / etc.

Fact of the matter is, unless someone figures out how to give humans the ability to photosynthesize, we have to kill things to live. Now, one can choose one's own ethics of how/what dies (and, I might argue, we should all at least give it some thought and make an active decision), but death is unavoidable.


Here's a link to one of the articles on it (as a starting point): Link
There is still some debate over which type of production (meat vs vegetarian) has the most harmfull effect, but in any case it shows that "vegans don't hurt other living creatures" to be a complete myth. When confronted with this, defensive vegans usually fall back on the "least harm" argument, which, while understandable, is usually a radical change from their initial claims of "no harm".
 
2012-05-03 11:11:49 AM

natazha: B12 is the best argument against the "We are natural vegans". There are NO vegetative sources of B12. None.

[Yeast is not a member of the Plant Kingdom]


You can get it by now washing your hands after wiping your butt.
No joke, you need tiny amounts of B12 and bacteria in your rectum is able to produce B12.
 
2012-05-03 11:12:00 AM

Rapmaster2000: My friend's annoying girlfriend (now thankfully ex)


Tim Minchin feels your pain.

hiiamchris: local vegan RAVES about the mac and cheese


< quizzicaldog.jpg >

Vegan? Eating mac-and-cheese?

Either it's advertised on the menu as vegan and not containing cheese, in which case your "friend" adding the pancetta and such is an asshole and should be canned along with the person who added the menu item (if they knew)... or the "vegan" isn't.
 
2012-05-03 11:12:20 AM
29.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-05-03 11:12:32 AM

ph0rk: In this particular case, someone making a moral/ethical argument about animal suffering either must go whole hog or shut the fark up.


Key words, most important. Got it.

WienerButt: I know a vegan girl who is fat as fark. Like 280+ fat. I don't know how.


Probably the worst combination of genetic predisposition, old (bad) eating habits, a sedentary lifestyle, and eating processed foods that contain lots of grain-based carbs with little fiber. Still if that's the fattest vegan anyone can think of, consider how many people we've all met that are 50lbs or more over that weight that eat meat!

At 280, you're still on your feet at least... 380, 430 you're in Jazzy/Hoveround territory. Poor Jazzy.
 
2012-05-03 11:13:25 AM
Livestock meant for food consume more food energy in grain than we get from slaughtering them, obviously. They're an inefficient but tasty "waste" of food energy. If you must eat meat, i recommend that you eat certain animals in particular, which are a more efficient use of food energy than others. I can't find the article offhand, but I recall reading that broiler chickens and pigs were the most efficient, and cows raised for beef the least.
 
2012-05-03 11:13:29 AM

chimp_ninja: ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

Look, either you care about the sum total of suffering on the planet or you don't. You don't get to ride the high horse about eating meat while making use of gelatin and leather and so on.

That's like saying that you either care about pollution or you don't, so get in your Hummer or live in a yurt.

Personally, I'm less concerned about killing animals than I am about the ecological costs of raising them in massive quantities, or the health costs of a high-meat diet. Let's say I cut out 95% of the meat I would have otherwise eaten. I get the health benefits I want-- a little meat from time to time helps with certain nutrients, actually, and the rest is in the noise. I reduce the amount of land/energy/water/etc. needed to produce my meals, but even beans and grains and nuts need that (just less on a per-calorie basis). I save some money, but my food isn't free.

There's always some cost to getting your ~1500-2000 calories per day.


Sure, and for context I live in a place where you can get all the tasty meaty dishes you want made out of local animal parts raised "organically" (or at least humanely). We still have vegozealots, though.

In the case of meat; cheese, wool, eggs, and gelatin are easy enough to skip if you're really into the animal suffering angle. Yes, that leaves you (well, not you) with a rather boring diet, but don't bullshiat the rest of us about slaughterhouses while eating your cheese omelet, asshole.
 
2012-05-03 11:13:55 AM
EAT FOOD

NOT TOO MUCH

MOSTLY PLANTS
 
2012-05-03 11:14:36 AM
You know, I've never once met a vegetarian who grew up on or around a farm. Do they exist?

/Old Indian word for "hunts poorly"
 
2012-05-03 11:15:07 AM

Rapmaster2000: macadamnut: natazha: B12 is the best argument against the "We are natural vegans".

"Natural Vegans" is an oxymoron.

My friend's annoying girlfriend (now thankfully ex): My yoga instructor says eating meat isn't natural.
Me: Humans have consumed meat for hundreds of thousands of years. It's been confirmed in the fossil record. Even our closest genetic relative, the chimpanzee, eats meat.
My friend's annoying girlfriend (now thankfully ex): Well, I don't believe that.
Me in my head: Ahhhhh!!! You can't will away facts because they're inconvenient!!


Consuming meat is a lot different from "must have" meat for each lunch/dinner.
Yeah, humans are omnivores - the same as pigs, we are NOT lions.
 
2012-05-03 11:15:43 AM

Spaced Lion: You know, I've never once met a vegetarian who grew up on or around a farm. Do they exist?

/Old Indian word for "hunts poorly"


I did, and?
 
2012-05-03 11:16:01 AM
So far this thread is more reasonable than I expected.
 
2012-05-03 11:16:44 AM

CheekyMonkey: I went through a similar ethical struggle about 12 years ago. The conclusion I came to is that eating meat is not inherently a bad thing. What is important is how the animal is raised and treated, prior to being killed for meat.

As such, I do not eat any conventional/factory-farmed meat. I have a chest freezer, and buy half a pig every year from a local farmer that I know. I picked up this year's half just the other day, and before loading it into my truck, I walked out to the barn with the farmer to see the next batch of piglets, happily rooting around in their field. I get chickens and eggs from another local farmer. Sometimes one of my friends who hunt will get an extra deer, and I'll have venison for the cost of the butchering.


This is exactly the same conclusion that I came to. I now buy my meat from a local butcher who gets his meat from local famers who raise grass-fed, non-medicated beef (I've been to some of the farms). These animals are treated humanely, and, as far as I can tell, appear to be "happy".
 
2012-05-03 11:17:26 AM

James F. Campbell: Livestock meant for food consume more food energy in grain than we get from slaughtering them, obviously. They're an inefficient but tasty "waste" of food energy. If you must eat meat, i recommend that you eat certain animals in particular, which are a more efficient use of food energy than others. I can't find the article offhand, but I recall reading that broiler chickens and pigs were the most efficient, and cows raised for beef the least.


But, dude. Beef.

Unrelated:
I wish there was something as easy to put between two pieces of bread as a slice or two of deli meat. Cheese alone, boring. Most veggies make unsatisfying sandwiches without some fatty spread/sauce to unhealthen it up.

Some roast beef or pastrami is just damned nice with some swiss on rye.
 
2012-05-03 11:17:35 AM

WhippingBoy: There is still some debate over which type of production (meat vs vegetarian) has the most harmfull effect, but in any case it shows that "vegans don't hurt other living creatures" to be a complete myth.


Considering that all the calories that come from meat come from plant sources, all the things wrong with vegetarians' impact is built into omnivorous diets. However, I agree about the "living creatures" fantasy.

SFSailor: Either it's advertised on the menu as vegan and not containing cheese, in which case your "friend" adding the pancetta and such is an asshole and should be canned along with the person who added the menu item (if they knew)... or the "vegan" isn't.


Regardless of the truth of that situation, let's all consider for a moment just how freaking delicious that mac and cheese preparation sounds!
 
2012-05-03 11:18:01 AM

WhippingBoy: Here's a link to one of the articles on it (as a starting point): Link


Thanks for that -- I appreciate it.

One of these days I should forgo wasting time on Fark and elsewhere and make a concerted effort to find the original article I saw... I have a vivid image of the cover of the issue, but, at this point, it must have been 10+ years ago and it bugs me.

But, there's farkin' and such to do. And I am lazy.

However, thanks for the link -- I do think it's an interesting point and one that should be made in any veggie/vegan/omni conversation.

/ I don't care what anyone chooses to eat... as long as they don't attempt to foist belligerently their beliefs off on me
// I will move heaven and earth to accommodate a guest who is a polite adherent to *any* diet, but if'n they're demanding and in my face? Yeah, maybe there's an old bun in the back of the fridge or something, sorry....
 
2012-05-03 11:19:04 AM

ph0rk: But, dude. Beef.


Pork is nearly in all ways superior to beef.
 
2012-05-03 11:19:17 AM

ph0rk: chimp_ninja: ph0rk: The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

Look, either you care about the sum total of suffering on the planet or you don't. You don't get to ride the high horse about eating meat while making use of gelatin and leather and so on.

That's like saying that you either care about pollution or you don't, so get in your Hummer or live in a yurt.

Personally, I'm less concerned about killing animals than I am about the ecological costs of raising them in massive quantities, or the health costs of a high-meat diet. Let's say I cut out 95% of the meat I would have otherwise eaten. I get the health benefits I want-- a little meat from time to time helps with certain nutrients, actually, and the rest is in the noise. I reduce the amount of land/energy/water/etc. needed to produce my meals, but even beans and grains and nuts need that (just less on a per-calorie basis). I save some money, but my food isn't free.

There's always some cost to getting your ~1500-2000 calories per day.

Sure, and for context I live in a place where you can get all the tasty meaty dishes you want made out of local animal parts raised "organically" (or at least humanely). We still have vegozealots, though.

In the case of meat; cheese, wool, eggs, and gelatin are easy enough to skip if you're really into the animal suffering angle. Yes, that leaves you (well, not you) with a rather boring diet, but don't bullshiat the rest of us about slaughterhouses while eating your cheese omelet, asshole.


Honestly, I live in an area that supports multiple vegetarian restaurants, and I've never run into a "vegozealot". I'm not seeing any examples in this thread, either. I think the "Meat is murder!!!" crowd is a very small outlier who aren't worth expending energy on.
 
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