I'm sort of a round-about vegetarian. Pigs and cows eat vegetables and I eat them. Problem solved.

BillCo: I'm sort of a round-about vegetarian. Pigs and cows eat vegetables and I eat them. Problem solved.

I enjoy being at the top of the food chain.

The greatest hazard to being vegetarian is inspiring animosity in those you attempt to force your agenda on.

This is a truly awful article.

1) Under Problem #1, "Lower Cholesterol", they note that precisely one study (conducted exclusively with Japanese-American men aged 71-93 years) showed that low cholesterol was associated with higher mortality.

2) Under Problem #2, "Increased risk of colorectal cancer", they note that precisely one study showed higher risk for one specific cancer in vegetarians, even though many studies show that they have a much lower risk of cancer overall. They conclude by noting "The study's researchers, although not unequivocal in being able to explain the findings, theorize that the vegetarian participants were perhaps not eating sufficient amounts of fruits and vegetables." Really? Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much? Are they just really big on rice and pasta? Maybe you should study smarter vegetarians before yours die of scurvy or anemia or something.

3) Under Problem #3, "Lower bone mineral density", they cite precisely one study, then conclude by noting "The authors claim that the "magnitude of the association is clinically insignificant."

Problems #4 and #5 are more realistic (you have to choose your foods a little more carefully if you aren't getting these from meats), but again, they cite one study. These problems get mitigated if you're not a vegetarian for religious or cultural reasons, and still eat meat on occasion. We don't buy meat at the store, and try not to order it if we're out, but if we're at someone else's house or a business meeting, we don't expect the world to conform to our preferences. I do it for health/ecology reasons, so if I end up eating one serving of meat in a week, the impact is proportionally small.

Medical studies are all over the map. You don't want to make life changes based on any one result-- there can be quirks with the specifics of the study, with the interpretation, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if pretty much everyone is low on Omega 3. You don't get much of it from cheeseburgers.

chimp_ninja: We don't buy meat at the store, and try not to order it if we're out, but if we're at someone else's house or a business meeting, we don't expect the world to conform to our preferences. I do it for health/ecology reasons, so if I end up eating one serving of meat in a week, the impact is proportionally small.

I have a lot of vegetarian hate, but have none of it for "vegetarians" like you.

I think this thread is done.

Pig=good
moderation=good
top of food chain=good

Seriously people. Anything in moderation is OK.
Too much meat=death
Too many vegetables=death
Too much water=death
Not enough water=death.

Live a balanced life and enjoy.

/Except for lima beans--those awful things are poison.

Buddha available for comment.

chimp_ninja: This is a truly awful article.

1) Under Problem #1, "Lower Cholesterol", they note that precisely one study (conducted exclusively with Japanese-American men aged 71-93 years) showed that low cholesterol was associated with higher mortality.

2) Under Problem #2, "Increased risk of colorectal cancer", they note that precisely one study showed higher risk for one specific cancer in vegetarians, even though many studies show that they have a much lower risk of cancer overall. They conclude by noting "The study's researchers, although not unequivocal in being able to explain the findings, theorize that the vegetarian participants were perhaps not eating sufficient amounts of fruits and vegetables." Really? Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much? Are they just really big on rice and pasta? Maybe you should study smarter vegetarians before yours die of scurvy or anemia or something.

3) Under Problem #3, "Lower bone mineral density", they cite precisely one study, then conclude by noting "The authors claim that the "magnitude of the association is clinically insignificant."

Problems #4 and #5 are more realistic (you have to choose your foods a little more carefully if you aren't getting these from meats), but again, they cite one study. These problems get mitigated if you're not a vegetarian for religious or cultural reasons, and still eat meat on occasion. We don't buy meat at the store, and try not to order it if we're out, but if we're at someone else's house or a business meeting, we don't expect the world to conform to our preferences. I do it for health/ecology reasons, so if I end up eating one serving of meat in a week, the impact is proportionally small.

Medical studies are all over the map. You don't want to make life changes based on any one result-- there can be quirks with the specifics of the study, with the interpretation, etc.

Maybe but I'm going to hedge my bets by eating a steak.

What chimp_ninja said.

fickenchucker: I think this thread is done.

Pig=good
moderation=good
top of food chain=good

Seriously people. Anything in moderation is OK.
Too much meat=death
Too many vegetables=death
Too much water=death
Not enough water=death.

Live a balanced life and enjoy.

/Except for lima beans--those awful things are poison.

Everything in moderation is OK (except for red meat).

B12 is the best argument against the "We are natural vegans". There are NO vegetative sources of B12. None.

[Yeast is not a member of the Plant Kingdom]

Time for breakfast

If you're going to go vegetarian, at least go ovo-lacto - don't exclude animal sources in their entirety. Vegans are, frankly, idiots. We evolved as opportunistic omnivores, and we're designed to include animal sources in our diets. There are things we need that we can only get from animal sources, unless we rely entirely on technology (and, even there, we're just adding an abstraction layer between us and the animal source we're still consuming.)

Not to worry, intertubes, not to worry.

Vegetarians demonstrated a 39 percent higher incidence of colorectal cancer, which is confounding, given that eating red meat leads to higher colorectal cancer rates. The study's researchers, although not unequivocal in being able to explain the findings, theorize that the vegetarian participants were perhaps not eating sufficient amounts of fruits and vegetables.

Very scientific statement by the researchers. Our results contradict generally held beliefs so we'll just ignore that part of them and make up some BS excuse as to why they differ.

Older article about red meat cancer connection:
Now a huge, 20-year study from the American Cancer Society confirms these findings. The bottom line: Those who eat the most red meat -- beef and/or pork and/or processed meat products -- get colon cancer 30% to 40% more often than those who eat these foods only once in a while.

So when one diet causes a 39% increase in cancer it's because the study population is unrepresentative and doesn't eat enough fruit and veggies and another diet increases risk 30-40% and it's because of the red meat.

Just maybe both groups have high incidences because of the lack of fruit and veggies?

Is semen vegetarian?

If God didn't want us to eat animals, he shouldn't have made them out of meat.

"Be moderate in everything, including moderation" -- Horace Porter

One of the things we decided to try this year was to eat less meat in my house (more of a financial decision than a health one). 3 days a week, we go veggie (we used to eat meat at every meal). Nothing super healthy -- lots of veggie lasagnas, quesadillas and homemade cheese pizzas for dinner. Salads for lunch. I've lost 7 pounds (4%) and I poop better.

beefoe: So when one diet causes a 39% increase in cancer it's because the study population is unrepresentative and doesn't eat enough fruit and veggies and another diet increases risk 30-40% and it's because of the red meat.

Just maybe both groups have high incidences because of the lack of fruit and veggies?

The tons-of-meat vs. colorectal cancer link has been replicated by a number of studies. This is the first/only study Ive heard of linking vegetarian diets to colorectal issues.

Some of the benefits of fiber get overhyped, but there's some consensus that enough roughage to keep things "moving along" is a good thing for several reasons. Your body routes a lot of the toxic junk it doesn't know what to do with into the "poopin' process" (medical term), and it's reasonable to assume that there's no benefit and some possibility of harm in storing it there for longer than needed.

chimp_ninja: This is a truly awful article.

1) Under Problem #1, "Lower Cholesterol", they note that precisely one study (conducted exclusively with Japanese-American men aged 71-93 years) showed that low cholesterol was associated with higher mortality.

2) Under Problem #2, "Increased risk of colorectal cancer", they note that precisely one study showed higher risk for one specific cancer in vegetarians, even though many studies show that they have a much lower risk of cancer overall. They conclude by noting "The study's researchers, although not unequivocal in being able to explain the findings, theorize that the vegetarian participants were perhaps not eating sufficient amounts of fruits and vegetables." Really? Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much? Are they just really big on rice and pasta? Maybe you should study smarter vegetarians before yours die of scurvy or anemia or something.

3) Under Problem #3, "Lower bone mineral density", they cite precisely one study, then conclude by noting "The authors claim that the "magnitude of the association is clinically insignificant."

Problems #4 and #5 are more realistic (you have to choose your foods a little more carefully if you aren't getting these from meats), but again, they cite one study. These problems get mitigated if you're not a vegetarian for religious or cultural reasons, and still eat meat on occasion. We don't buy meat at the store, and try not to order it if we're out, but if we're at someone else's house or a business meeting, we don't expect the world to conform to our preferences. I do it for health/ecology reasons, so if I end up eating one serving of meat in a week, the impact is proportionally small.

Medical studies are all over the map. You don't want to make life changes based on any one result-- there can be quirks with the specifics of the study, with the interpretation, etc.

Yes, what you said. The author was reaching really hard to come up with something substantial and still found nothing.

neversubmit: Is semen vegetarian?

I think it would be vegetarian, but not vegan because it's an animal product. On the other hand, it doesn't cast a shadow so a 5th level vegan might be okay with it.

Vegans, the lefts version of the christain scientist who pray for cures instead of using actual medicine nd science.

Baryogenesis: chimp_ninja: This is a truly awful article.

1) Under Problem #1, "Lower Cholesterol", they note that precisely one study (conducted exclusively with Japanese-American men aged 71-93 years) showed that low cholesterol was associated with higher mortality.

2) Under Problem #2, "Increased risk of colorectal cancer", they note that precisely one study showed higher risk for one specific cancer in vegetarians, even though many studies show that they have a much lower risk of cancer overall. They conclude by noting "The study's researchers, although not unequivocal in being able to explain the findings, theorize that the vegetarian participants were perhaps not eating sufficient amounts of fruits and vegetables." Really? Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much? Are they just really big on rice and pasta? Maybe you should study smarter vegetarians before yours die of scurvy or anemia or something.

3) Under Problem #3, "Lower bone mineral density", they cite precisely one study, then conclude by noting "The authors claim that the "magnitude of the association is clinically insignificant."

Problems #4 and #5 are more realistic (you have to choose your foods a little more carefully if you aren't getting these from meats), but again, they cite one study. These problems get mitigated if you're not a vegetarian for religious or cultural reasons, and still eat meat on occasion. We don't buy meat at the store, and try not to order it if we're out, but if we're at someone else's house or a business meeting, we don't expect the world to conform to our preferences. I do it for health/ecology reasons, so if I end up eating one serving of meat in a week, the impact is proportionally small.

Medical studies are all over the map. You don't want to make life changes based on any one result-- there can be quirks with the specifics of the study, with the interpretation, etc.

Yes, what you said. The author was reaching really hard to come up with something substan ...

Do 10th level Vegans get Lightining Bolt once per day?

chimp_ninja: Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much

It's possible. I know a vegan who subsists primarily on deep fried tofu and beer. Turns out you can get fat living a strict vegan diet.

chimp_ninja:

Thank you for the articulate analysis. I hold very similar beliefs regarding animal consumption, and it's nice to see someone explain it so well before the brigade of "hurr derr bacon lol" crowd comes in.

BillCo: I'm sort of a round-about vegetarian. Pigs and cows eat vegetables and I eat them. Problem solved.

An all-pork diet would explain how you're able to shiat on politics threads with such violence.

Look, meat is fine, but not in huge amounts. You can get all the health benefits of vegetarianism just by eating quality meat instead of quantity.

Regardless, death is right around the corner, coronary, coroner.

Fiber is a harsh mistress.

NewWorldDan: chimp_ninja: Your study's vegetarians don't eat from those food groups much

It's possible. I know a vegan who subsists primarily on deep fried tofu and beer. Turns out you can get fat living a strict vegan diet.

Vegetarian junk food will still cause you to balloon up.

I'm sure he knows some beer is not vegan. Isinglass, a clarification aid, is from fish

BillCo: I'm sort of a round-about vegetarian. Pigs and cows eat vegetables and I eat them. Problem solved.

Vegetarian once removed is the official term, I believe.

Humans evolved as omnivores. If one if going to become a vegetarian, one must educate oneself to find out how to supplement those essential nutrients that we normally get from meat. It's a lot of work and there's a lot of information to digest. It should not be something that one does on a whim just because being a vegetarian is so hip just now.

Lots of vegetarians (myself included) are unhealthy because they are lazy vegetarians. Being a vegetarian means you have to pay particular attention to if you're getting enough proteins, vitamins, fats, and oils in your diet.

Things like nuts, seaweeds, beans, and leafy greens are all absolutely essential. Unfortunately, most of those things are either expensive or require a commitment to home cooking.

As more of a picky eater than a vegetarian at heart, I have a terrible, terrible diet.

factoryconnection: chimp_ninja: Some of the benefits of fiber get overhyped, but there's some consensus that enough roughage to keep things "moving along" is a good thing for several reasons. Your body routes a lot of the toxic junk it doesn't know what to do with into the "poopin' process" (medical term), and it's reasonable to assume that there's no benefit and some possibility of harm in storing it there for longer than needed.

It does seem to make sense that way, doesn't it? A good salad or having carrots as a snack does wonders for me in that department.

SOME of the benefits of fiber are overhyped, but it seems to be a lot like how proper hydration and proper exercise are overhyped. People are so chronically fiber deficient, that it's easy to put HUGE benefits on fiber because lots of people are so deficient they think their bodies ARE healthy, and try and blame other factors for their lack of health. Fiber and hydration are huge for how you feel and look, up to a reasonable level.

Scary? We're omnivores, our ancestors where omnivorous, our closest living relative, the Chimpanzee is an omnivorous (they form hunting parties to bring down larger animals), I would have used the obvious tag.

/you'll eat the meat and like it.

HailRobonia: Look, meat is fine, but not in huge amounts. You can get all the health benefits of vegetarianism just by eating quality meat instead of quantity.

Pretty much true. Likely true of all things. Costs cabbage, though.


The thing I never really understood is why people go veg for some sort of quasi-moral/ethical reason, but don't go whole hog.

Look, either you care about the sum total of suffering on the planet or you don't. You don't get to ride the high horse about eating meat while making use of gelatin and leather and so on.

Plus, plants feel pain too, asshole.