Louisiana_Sitar_Club: ecmoRandomNumbers: If you can't drive a manual transmission, you don't know how to drive, IMO.

What an enormously stupid opinion to hold.

What opinion? That's a fact.

Also, for some more fuel:

Automatic drivers: Apple users

Manual drivers: Windows/Linux users

Things I discovered about my wife that made me fall in love with her, in chronological order:

- Beautiful
- Shares my interests
- Great cook
- Drives a manual transmission

She drives a Jeep Liberty and I drive a Wrangler. Both are 5-speeds. The Wrangler is dissolving, so we're trading it for something a bit comfier and faster for long drives-- Volvo C30 T5 R-Design with a 6-speed manual.

ecmoRandomNumbers: If you can't drive a manual transmission, you don't know how to drive, IMO.

I wouldn't go quite that far but I think manual transmissions would be a big aid to properly training drivers. A manual forces you to spend more time learning to deal with the car before you try dealing with traffic.

m3h: AbbeySomeone: I live in Seattle and we got us some major hills. Automatic is easier.

You lost me. The car works the same way. Put it in gear, engage clutch slowly while applying gas. Hell, if you're going downhill, you don't even need the gas to get it going. The car really doesn't care if you're on a hill or in a hole. You can either drive stick, or you cannot.

/sounds like you cannot

The problem is avoiding rolling backwards into the car behind while doing this. Special transmissions to address the issue exist but without one it can be a pain. Your approach does *NOT* work, you can't do it slowly.

KrispyKritter: manual trans are great fun to drive while giving you a more 'in control' feel of the vehicle: better acceleration & greater control for fast stops. IMHO it is heavy stop and go commuter traffic killing manual tranny sales. becomes a PITA joyless task resulting in the next car being an automatic.

I think it's more than just a feeling--I've been in a situation where if I had been driving an automatic I would have been hit. If you have an economy engine an automatic transmission is not a good thing when the way to avoid the accident is to accelerate out of the other guy's path.

If you have stop and go traffic or hills, though, go automatic.

ktybear: TwistedFark: Mostly it's just typical posturing.

Mostly, it's because some people like to do more than steer, and some people like to save money on brakes and tires, and because some people like to have more control over the gear change and more control with acceleration, and more control downhill and let's not forget the little handy fact you can clutch start a manual if your battery dies.

you can call it posturing if you want

Huh? I thought that wasn't possible since alternators replaced generators. (On the other hand, if the battery is just too weak the alternator could still work.)

DarkVader: Given how good computer control and dual-clutch automatic gearboxes are, there's no reason for manual transmissions to be built anymore. The computer is better at shifting than you are. Really. And the dual-clutch boxes don't have the lossy torque converters, so gas mileage/power to wheels is actually better than a stick. You CAN'T shift as fast as the computer. You CAN'T shift as smoothly as the computer. And you are NOT more in control of the car. The limitations of the stick mean that the car is more in control of you.

I do agree the computer can shift better than a human. Dual-clutch autoshifting certainly should replace the current automatic transmission. The thing the computer can't do better than a human is decide *WHEN* to shift. The computer can only look at the car, it can't look at the environment. I'd be perfectly happy to ditch the clutch pedal and connect the gearshift to a computer instead of a mechanical linkage. Just give me control of the one aspect the human outperforms the computer--when.

foxyshadis: Then again, electric cars might make all of this obsolete before manufacturers figure out how to make an interface.

There's another possibility: A gasoline-engine electric drive car. The engine isn't connected to anything at all, there simply a big alternator built into it. The electric power runs everything.

Presto, the engine is free to run at optimal RPM no matter what--no need to try to make it do well at low RPMs, an area the internal combustion engine is weak at. Electrics can give full power at minimal RPM, no transmission, no clutch, very high starting torque.

SnarfVader: lohphat: ABS significantly shortens breaking distance and saves lives/prop damage by dissipating energy before impact or eliminating impact altogether. Worth every cent. Sliding on molten rubber does not help anyone involved.

That's a misconception. ABS gives you the ability to maintain control of your vehicle under severe braking situations. It does not shorten the distances (except on ice). I prefer ABS, but still try to maintain a good following distance and don't rely on it to stop me in a shorter distance.

Actually, it does shorten real-world distances even though it doesn't shorten the theoretical minimum distance. In the real world the human has no way to judge exactly how much braking they can apply before losing traction. Don't use 100% and you're wasting traction. Go past 100% and you're looking at sliding friction instead of static friction, you get less braking. (Try dragging something heavy--note how it's harder to start it moving than to keep it moving.)

The faster feedback loop of the ABS sensor will inherently outperform even a human who can somehow sense exactly where the limit is.

AlwaysRightBoy: My first manual was a 67 Beetle, (bought for a couple of hundred in 1976) and learned early on that they start on hills without a good battery. Bought 3 more Beetles and a Scirocco that were all manual. Protip: Live on a hill.

66 Beetle, bought for $225 (complete with new paint job) in 1977. And yes, I too tried to always park on a hill; those old 6 volt systems just didn't have much cranking power.

FlashHarry: my new (manual) car has a hill-assist brake, which i find extremely useful. but i also feel like i'm cheating. anyone else experience this?

Same here, it's nice to have but does feel like cheating.


/luvs my Cooper S 6 speed
//female
///can 'balance' the gas and clutch to keep the car stationary on a hill

MacTehKlimed: FlashHarry: my new (manual) car has a hill-assist brake, which i find extremely useful. but i also feel like i'm cheating. anyone else experience this?

Same here, it's nice to have but does feel like cheating.


/luvs my Cooper S 6 speed
//female
///can 'balance' the gas and clutch to keep the car stationary on a hill

That will hurt your clutch if you do it too often.

remotecody: Driving automatic is like pouring hollandaise sauce or gravy out of a can.

Bullsh*t! I make my own sauces from scratch and drive an automatic. That is a stupid comparison.

santadog: It's like not knowing how to swim.
Not that hard to learn, and in the right situation it could save your life.

Preference and lack of knowledge or skill are not the same.

MaudlinMutantMollusk: ecmoRandomNumbers: If you can't drive a manual transmission, you don't know how to drive, IMO.

QFT

/and might I add, who the f*ck would buy a Jeep Wrangler with an auto?
//Jeep herder, manual trans

A serious offroader that climbs a bunch of crap. My last Jeep was manual and my Cooper S is a manual. My current built Jeep . . . No way. Being damn near vertical going up hills, having to watch where the rocks, spotters and trees are . . . the clutch is one less thing for me to worry about. I'd rather have my eyes on the trail than look cool shifting. Besides, with a twin stick transfer case I can find any gear I want anyway.

I learned how to drive in a 5 speed PT Cruiser and my roommate's 5 speed Cobalt. I bought an 04 Mazda3 hatch with a 5 speed for my first car. People are like "What's the big deal about stick?" and the only answer "It's WAY more fun!". They don't get it... would rather drive automatic so they can eat/text/put on makeup/smoke/whatever while driving. Meanwhile I can get close to 40mpg highway, OR have a blast on back country roads. I can see myself getting an auto when I'm in my 60's possibly.

The first car I bought was a manual (and I was looking for one on purpose). It was a little 88 hp Mercury Tracer wagon. I had been practicing on my dad's '68 Chevy pickup that he'd dropped a 350 into, but that had a lot of low end torque and the clutch feel was pretty stiff. You had to start in second gear and it only had four gears. I'm glad no cops seemed to be around when I was learning because I'd have probably gotten a ticket for hot rodding or something because I peeled out a bit often in that thing. I was basically always popping the clutch since I wasn't good at a stick yet.

Driving a stick is just a lot more fun than an automatic, even in a gutless wonder. Driving a stick over a mountain pass is also nicer because it's not trying to constantly shift gears on you when you hit a briefly steeper section even though you've got it down by a gear or two. The constant change in engine camber can get really annoying when ascending to the summit of a pass. The pseudo manual stuff they put in is not remotely the same thing as a stick.

I like standard transmissions. I think they force you to be a better driver simply because you have to pay attention more. More control doesn't seem like it's a bad thing to me. It's harder to use a cell phone in general on a manual transmission. That is my main reason for wishing more people could and would drive sticks.

I think the primary reason people may be starting to return to manual transmissions is economics. Automatic transmissions on a new car will set you back at least $700 extra over what a stick will, and sometimes more when you end up with 5+ speed automatic transmissions or CVT transmissions. Manuals also generally cost less to repair because they're a simpler design. Manual transmission cars are also lighter than automatics and have comparable fuel economy with even the most recent innovations in automatic transmissions. Generally, manuals still get better fuel economy, even though some car companies are putting automatic transmissions in with more gears than the manual transmissions they build to try to make the automatics look more fuel efficient than the manual. If the same model has the same number of gears comparing a standard and automatic transmission, generally the manual will have 5-10% better fuel economy.

ericbo84: I learned how to drive in a 5 speed PT Cruiser and my roommate's 5 speed Cobalt. I bought an 04 Mazda3 hatch with a 5 speed for my first car. People are like "What's the big deal about stick?" and the only answer "It's WAY more fun!". They don't get it... would rather drive automatic so they can eat/text/put on makeup/smoke/whatever while driving. Meanwhile I can get close to 40mpg highway, OR have a blast on back country roads. I can see myself getting an auto when I'm in my 60's possibly.

Savvy drivers can smoke and drink coffee while operating a manual/stick vehicle. I've done it.
I learned to drive on an old Volvo 164 with an unforgiving clutch. People should know how to operate both types of vehicles.

Oh yeah, a human can tell when a hill is upcoming or they need to pass another vehicle and can promptly downshift as needed. An automatic transmission takes a second or two to realize you need more power after you've throttled the gas pedal before it will downshift. The computer might be better at shifting for initial acceleration issues, but it's not better at knowing when you need more power due to environmental changes.

foxyshadis: The novelty will wear off, it always does. The dwindling hardcore will continue to be hardcore, the posers and rice rocket racers will get sick of it and opt for convenience the minute they get an office job or a kid. It's only spiked now because so many people have been taking anything they can get on the used market for so long, that now that the economy's back they're ready to listen to the guys who crow about fuel economy and ultimate control. Most of them regret it and maybe 5% ever see any fuel savings.

Face it, stick shifters, you guys are the hipsters of the auto world.

Have to say that I completely agree with this.

Most stick shifters out there are easy to spot, they tend to drive as bad as the automatic crowd but their cars are always moving backwards at the red lights or you can see their cars pop (jerk) as they switch gears without having a clue on how to use a clutch.

But I'm sure that if you ask them, they are ALL great drivers.

I've driven enough of them to know that in the city, a stick is not a good thing, and I'd never would buy such a car.

There's enough trouble with people not able to drive properly as they text, talk on the cells, spill their coffee all over themselves, putting on makeup, etc. that at this point, a stick shouldn't even be legal for some people.

The truth is (for many), the lower price of the manual is why many get them (and probably the whole increase in sales as per this article), telling themselves that they'll get used to it (or learn how). After a while, they switch back to an automatic after understanding the pain in the arse it is to use in a city with stops everywhere, red light being badly synchronized, traffic, etc. causing a increase in manual cars in the used car market.

With the variable speed transmission (the semi-auto), there's no reason for full manuals aside specialized vehicles.

With so many that can't drive and chew gum at the same time, a manual transmission is the worse thing ever for them... they might still suck as drivers with an automatic, but it would probably helps them concentrate on the road more.

we'refromthesamestory: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: ecmoRandomNumbers: If you can't drive a manual transmission, you don't know how to drive, IMO.

What an enormously stupid opinion to hold.

Someone doesn't drive manual.

Actually, the car I learned to drive in was a manual (My aunt's beat to hell Datsun) and I currently drive a Jeep with manual transmission. (Although I take the truck with automatic when I know I'm going to be sitting in traffic). But yes, I'm sure that someone out there doesn't drive a manual so, technically, you are correct. Regardless of what I do or do not drive, the opinion that I referenced is enormously stupid.

ADHD Librarian: powhound: Currently own two manuals (both 98's), but looking to buy a farking automatic because the wife needs to learn how to drive.

/public transport only takes one so far

What is wrong with learning to drive on a manual?

Already tried. She totaled a car by running over a fire hydrant.

ohokyeah: Oh yeah, a human can tell when a hill is upcoming or they need to pass another vehicle and can promptly downshift as needed. An automatic transmission takes a second or two to realize you need more power after you've throttled the gas pedal before it will downshift. The computer might be better at shifting for initial acceleration issues, but it's not better at knowing when you need more power due to environmental changes.

hmmm... no.

If you know how to drive, you can control your transmission and the switching of gears by how you press your gas pedal... and if you need an extra speed burst, you just floor it, causing the system to downshift (go in overdrive), it's just as fast (or faster) as someone with a manual is, taking the time to clutch and switch the gear (even with clutch-less shifting)..

5 speed '97 Saturn SL1, 186,000 km and still runs like a top. Costs me $34 to fill from empty, and averages 487 km per tank. Yes, I just spent $1200, but I replaced the rear brake lines, the front lower ball joint, had an alignment and put new tires on the front for that price. And that's the most I've ever spent on this car. It has some minor perforations at the floor pan in the back which I fixed, but the car looks and runs like it's new otherwise. The paint is in excellent shape and the body will long out last the car. I love my Saturn.

imfallen_angel: go in overdrive

[indigomontoya.jpg]

ecmoRandomNumbers: If you can't drive a manual transmission, you don't know how to drive, IMO.

I'd argue it makes you a better driver, especially if a new driver. You actually need to pay more attention to the road, and less to the 100's of other things stupid ass people do in their automatic transmission cars.

I've also noticed the only ones to biatch about manual transmission (always in traffic) are those who can't drive on. I've never once been in traffic and much cared. Only thing that comes to my mind then is the poor clutch, but others no it doesn't "suck in traffic".

The simple fact is that if you care about driving at all, stick is far superior. Even in stop and go traffic, it's better. You can coast, and you get better mileage in stop and go traffic as well.

The thing is, almost every single automatic (especially in Japanese cars) is designed to shift at predetermined points, and if you require more torque than the automatic transmission wants to give you, you're out of luck.

Stick isn't for everyone. Some people don't like driving. Some people just want to get from Point A to Point B. Some people just don't care and want the easiest possible solution, even at the cost of performance, mileage, fun, and capability.

Most people buy automatic somewhat efficient people movers. Some people buy fun cars because they like the process of driving.

I don't know how anyone could want to drive an automatic personally. It feels like driving around in a boat. Now, I haven't driven the newer generation of automatics, but even there, I know they won't shift when I want to. I LOVE the feeling of power when you're right in the torque range, and how quickly the stick responds. Cars with 300hp and automatics don't feel nearly as responsive as my 225hp stick.

Lots of people like boring mindless cars, boring mindless TV, boring mindless movies, etc.

StrangeQ: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: ecmoRandomNumbers: If you can't drive a manual transmission, you don't know how to drive, IMO.

What an enormously stupid opinion to hold.

What opinion? That's a fact.

Also, for some more fuel:

Automatic drivers: Apple users

Manual drivers: Windows/Linux users

So are you saying that if you don't have an Apple, you don't know how to use a computer?
And it's funny you should mention that. I have a dual boot Windows/Linux box and an Apple notebook. Although Linux is beyond question the most fun, I find them all to be pretty useful in the right situation. Why the hell would people join "teams" over computers and an car parts anyway?

I miss my 1st stick!

/always felt good in my mouth

we'refromthesamestory: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: we'refromthesamestory: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: ecmoRandomNumbers: If you can't drive a manual transmission, you don't know how to drive, IMO.

What an enormously stupid opinion to hold.

Someone doesn't drive manual.

Actually, the car I learned to drive in was a manual (My aunt's beat to hell Datsun) and I currently drive a Jeep with manual transmission. (Although I take the truck with automatic when I know I'm going to be sitting in traffic). But yes, I'm sure that someone out there doesn't drive a manual so, technically, you are correct. Regardless of what I do or do not drive, the opinion that I referenced is enormously stupid.

IMO, the only people that care that much drive automatic.

So caring individuals drive automatics? That means only heartless bastards drive manual? Dude, you're blowing my mind.

Never understood what America's love with automatic transmissions is.

In the UK, you're taught to drive manual straight off, and are moved on to automatic only if you suck at it.... a majority of cars over here are manual transmission.

My mum drives an automatic, and I've tried it... absolutely hate it. There's nothing to do with your left foot.

TommyymmoT: They're a good car jacking deterrent.

I laugh my ass off every time (about 2x per month) I hear about some scumbag car jacker who has to leave the car there, because they can't figure out how to get the damn thing to move.

Have had to drive my car up on the lift to get an inspection done because all (4 guys) the mechanics could not drive stick. Really... how do you take an interest in cars to the point that you have a job fixing them, and can't drive stick.

Also asked my insurance company about a partial theft deterrent for having a stick shift. They agreed in theory but either couldn't or wouldn't give me a discount.

I can drive a manual, but I choose to drive an automatic. This is because I don't give a shiat about "really" driving.

Sorry if your car defines you as a person! ;)

I hope there are always good manual choices out there. My next car and my last one don't come with any option but a manual, so no worries for me just yet. The wife's car ('11 Outback) is a CVT, which frankly is the best thing that ever happened to Outbacks performance-wise. Much faster than a regular automatic or manual. But that's because it's underpowered and the CVT's manipulation of the power band is incredibly helpful.

ktybear: What really pisses me off are cars that are automatics sitting at a speed between gears, so when you're behind them its a constant shuffle between 3rd and 4th or 2nd and 3rd...argh!

Stay in the lower gear. Extra RPM isn't going to hurt the engine, but shuffling between gears just to keep it in a certain RPM range is going to put a lot of wear on the clutch.

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Why the hell would people join "teams" over computers and an car parts anyway?

Because they seek identity. Pride.

This is a good source of identity for stupid and/or shallow people. Kind of like pop music, food appreciation, gun ownership, you name it.

fark pride.

/I'm a blast at parties