Regardless of the conclusions, this is junk science. Their protocol is laughable.

had98c: Those with no affiliation also showed the same shrinkage? It's go Protestant or go home? Seems pretty dubious.

Conservative evangelical protestants ("born-agains"), Catholics and atheists all have in common that they unquestioningly believe what others have told them, and so have less cause to learn and think about what they have learned. It's natural that their hippocampi would be atrophied.

Those with no affiliation also showed the same shrinkage? It's go Protestant or go home? Seems pretty dubious.

"According to the study, people who said they were a "born-again" Protestant or Catholic, or conversely, those who had no religious affiliation, had more hippocampal shrinkage (or "atrophy") compared to people who identified themselves as Protestants, but not born-again."

Hahahahahaha.....

There's a sucker born again every minute.

loonatic112358: Epicedion: I do have one quibble: religious groups (especially in the south, where this study was focused) tend to be demographically self-sorting. Non-born-again protestants tend to be your WASPy group -- wealthier/middle-class white people -- while born-agains tend to be poorer or composed of ethnic minorities (again, self-sorting generally along race lines), and southern Catholics tend to be poor Latin American immigrants.There are a lot of factors here.

yea, i'm not so sure on that

I guess Korean Americans pretty much blow your theory out the windaa. They are uber religious (many are born again evengelicals) yet highly educated and higher income per capita than even whites.

indylaw:
Irrational? I hold rational beliefs that are predicated on assumptions that you disagree with.

There's nothing irrational about believing that God exists. It is an assumption. It is also an assumption that the gravitational force does not reverse itself. ,You don't know that to be true, but it hasn't been disproven.

Try to avoid face-planting logic fails when you defend your rationality, sport.

StrangeQ: indylaw: StrangeQ: I'm sorry your ignorance(religion) has blinded you, but it has.

You can do better than that.

No point. You can't have a rational discussion with someone holding inherently irrational position.

Irrational? I hold rational beliefs that are predicated on assumptions that you disagree with.

There's nothing irrational about believing that God exists. It is an assumption. It is also an assumption that the gravitational force does not reverse itself. You don't know that to be true, but it hasn't been disproven.

indylaw: StrangeQ: I'm sorry your ignorance(religion) has blinded you, but it has.

You can do better than that.

No point. You can't have a rational discussion with someone holding inherently irrational position.

FTA: "when you feel your beliefs and values are somewhat at odds with those of society as a whole, it may contribute to long-term stress that could have implications for the brain."

This fits with other studies showing prolonged high stress is bad for the brain. Which, speaking as one whose beliefs and values have always been very much at odds with society as a whole, from me gets a big "DUH!"

Since 2006 I've taken to self-medicating with alcohol. It takes the edge off the stress, and anyway I might as well shrink the rest of my brain to match the damage from all that cortisol.

indylaw: StrangeQ: indylaw: StrangeQ: No, it's pretty well studied

It's an important and popular fact...

Link

Link

Link

Link

Link

Link

Link

I'm sorry, were you saying something?

Those are all articles citing the single poll which abb3w cited. By that token, it's "pretty well studied" that atheists have degenerate brains.

Well, until you can find anything proving otherwise, the fact stands. I'm sorry your ignorance(religion) has blinded you, but it has.

Well, this is just as good as place as any, I suppose.

This weekend, I saw a guy that was quite a bit younger than me that I hadn't seen since I was in high school. I also met his wife, who is a nurse. Somehow during the conversation, she brought up the appendix (the human organ) and how it was useless. I say "well, it is now, but at some point it had a use." Her answer, "no, it never had a use." I say "sure it did, but it whatever it's purpose was, we evolved and no longer needed it". Her answer, "oh, you're one of those people who believe man evolved from monkeys."

I wanted to argue, but I was drunk and couldn't quite figure out which way I wanted to argue (discuss the differences between micro and macro evolution, explain to her that evolution does not mean "man came from monkeys", or just ask her if she believed that God was infalliable how it was possible that he made the mistake of creating something that doesn't have a use). Being drunk, I could not have argued anything intelligently and just kind of sat there.

When a friend took up the slack and started questioning her, she turned it into a no other life exists anywhere in the universe type of conversations. I just had to back away and let them argue.

indylaw: had98c: Those with no affiliation also showed the same shrinkage? It's go Protestant or go home? Seems pretty dubious.

Conservative evangelical protestants ("born-agains"), Catholics and atheists all have in common that they unquestioningly believe what others have told them, and so have less cause to learn and think about what they have learned. It's natural that their hippocampi would be atrophied.

Well if that's not a troll, I don't know what is.

lacydog: I was working a temp job to put myself through this 6 weeks of unpaid training recently, and the last day I spent with a born again Christian. About 2 hours in to the 10 hour shift, he asked "Are you a churchgoer"? Like an idiot, I told him no. When he asked why, I told him it was because I was an atheist.

He looked downright shocked, and spent a good portion of the rest of the day asking me about it and whether I'd like to go to church with him sometime.

I think Jim Cornette said it best (referring to born again and noted complete asshole Shawn Michaels): "I've noticed that people start talking to god when nobody else wants to farking talk to them anymore"

That being said, I have a good friend who's a BA, and she's fine to me about it. And there are some people that, for whatever reason, are absolutely made better by converting (like ex-addicts). So while I don't hate most born again folks, I generally try to avoid them. Much like Jehovah's Witnesses.

As an alcoholic and addict I'd have to disagree with that. Addicts and alcoholics who become all god-happy and born again are hardly better, sure they're not drunk or high but they are just as obnoxious as when they were. Being "born again" usually makes them think that god has got their back and nothing will go wrong ever again. As soon as they relapse (most of us will more than once before we finaly sober up) they swing over to either "I hate god", or "god hates me and wants to punish me". They are always looking for a magical answer to their problems and rarely take resposibility for themselves.

abb3w: indylaw: I'd venture to guess that most atheists don't pay much attention to religious doctrine or dogma.

Pew Forum data suggests you're wrong, there. While they may think the doctrine and dogma is bull, they tend to know it pretty well. Atheists/Agnostics tend to be more knowledgeable about religion in general than Christians, and about Christian beliefs more so than most sects of Christian. (White Evangelicals and Mormons tend to know more than Atheists/Agnositics about Christianity in particular, but not religion in general.)

Generic "Nothing In Particular" may be more like what you're thinking of, however.

Respectfully, that survey (and it's unclear to me whether the participants were chosen at random or whether they were participants who chose to take the test and were therefore self-selecting) deals with knowledge of basic religious facts or facts about things peripheral to religion (like application of the Establishment Clause).

Fark that, they don't get an excuse for believing in nonsense.

I was working a temp job to put myself through this 6 weeks of unpaid training recently, and the last day I spent with a born again Christian. About 2 hours in to the 10 hour shift, he asked "Are you a churchgoer"? Like an idiot, I told him no. When he asked why, I told him it was because I was an atheist.

He looked downright shocked, and spent a good portion of the rest of the day asking me about it and whether I'd like to go to church with him sometime.

I think Jim Cornette said it best (referring to born again and noted complete asshole Shawn Michaels): "I've noticed that people start talking to god when nobody else wants to farking talk to them anymore"

That being said, I have a good friend who's a BA, and she's fine to me about it. And there are some people that, for whatever reason, are absolutely made better by converting (like ex-addicts). So while I don't hate most born again folks, I generally try to avoid them. Much like Jehovah's Witnesses.

So we read this...

According to the study, people who said they were a "born-again" Protestant or Catholic, or conversely, those who had no religious affiliation, had more hippocampal shrinkage (or "atrophy") compared to people who identified themselves as Protestants, but not born-again.

Then they say this...

"One interpretation of our finding -- that members of majority religious groups seem to have less atrophy compared with minority religious groups -- is that when you feel your beliefs and values are somewhat at odds with those of society as a whole, it may contribute to long-term stress that could have implications for the brain," Amy Owen, lead author of the study and a research associate at Duke University Medical Center, said in a Duke news release.

So in terms of a religious debate, this information is meaningless. Got it.

Phony_Soldier: fickle floridian: or conversely, those who had no religious affiliation, had more hippocampal shrinkage

I love how people keep missing this part "or conversely, those who had no religious affiliation, had more hippocampal shrinkage".

LOLs

Read the entire article. The folks who experience Hippocampal shrinkage are those that underwent a "born-again" type experience. It didn't matter if it was coming to Jesus, Bhudda, or saying "FSCK IT THERE IS NOT GOD."

Once you decide to throw out any past experience and formulate all future conclusions on a made up set of doctrines (and it doesn't matter whose they are) you cease to exercise the "learn from experience" part of the brain.

And the brain scans reflect that.

Also,

A lot of recovering alcoholics become born agains.
Ethanol shrinks your brain.

Bam, science

Evil Twin Skippy: Corporate Self: Regardless of the conclusions, this is junk science. Their protocol is laughable.

Comparing the results of a brain scans on people over time from a cross section of backgrounds? I'll bite, where's the whole in that logic?

These people's lifestyles? Their habits? Drug use? Existing medical conditions? Ethnicity? Genetic disposition? Age? Controls?

I could go on ...

fickle floridian: "According to the study, people who said they were a "born-again" Protestant or Catholic, or conversely, those who had no religious affiliation, had more hippocampal shrinkage (or "atrophy") compared to people who identified themselves as Protestants, but not born-again."

Hahahahahaha.....

The best Trolls know how to piss off both sides of an argument.

Yup, Conservatives are dumb as hell. Didn't need any research to figure that out. Just have a conversation with your local conservative...