TOG85: Pert: WhippingBoy: And personal responsibility is officially dead.



WarszawaScream: Came here to say this. Unbelievable. Man, the lawsuits I could have - THE LIQUOR STORES SELL BOOZE SO IT'S THEIR FAULT I'M A DRUNK! THE 7-ELEVENS SELL CIGARETTES SO IT'S THEIR FAULT I'M A SMOKER! THE BAKERY SELLS SNACKY CAKES SO IT'S THEIR FAULT I'M FAT!

...and everyone else saying the same idiotic thing

They have exactly the same problem in Australia. Now I don't know the facts of this case, but here's how it went down over there.

1. Indigenous population (pre-colonisation) have not developed alcohol and have no experience or tolerance of it.

2. Colonisers arrive, introduce alcohol to indigenous population causing huge detriment. It's often used deliberately to break the will / coherence of the local population who are genetically very susceptible to its effects and find it particularly addictive.

3. After many years of being shat on from a great height by the people who colonised them, original population are in a pretty sorry state. On top of all their other problems their society is being horrifically torn apart by alcohol abuse - the stories from aboriginal homelands are just unbelievably bad.

4. Indigenous people realise that there is a problem, begin to get their shiat together and ban alcohol in their communities. They ban their people from drinking and ask that nearby towns support them and help them rebuild their society by removing temptation from the people who will take a drink if it is made easy for them to do so.

5. Local towns, rather than going along with this and doing something to help actively expand and market their products directly to the communities who have begged them to remove temptation.

To me it's like opening up a heroin supermarket next to a school....

The Indians cannot move their reservation away from the town and they cannot physically prevent their people from visiting the town for supplies. They recognise their own weakness and seek support a ...

Problem is, alcohol is legal to buy for anyone of legal age in the US. Even people who are banned by the US justice system on probation can buy alcohol as long as they have an ID showing they are of age. Now, repercussions may happen because of that, but the stores can not be blamed unless they are directed not to sell alcohol to someone. They are capitalizing on it, but the market is there and in a free market, you can not be blamed. My ex was 1/2 American Indian, her dad was full blooded, they both had drinking problems. We split because of it. WIthout becoming a a socialist state where the government can decide what one can and can not do, there is no room for legal action on this. Now, the tribe themselves may want to actually position tribal police at the entrances to their reservation and inspect vehicles, as they have banned alcohol, they can take their own legal action against it. Its not a solution, but its far more reasonable than blaming alcohol manufacturers for the demise of their culture.

Socialist? I believe the word you were looking for is authoritarian.

Vanis:
That said, leaving the reservation is tantamount to losing what they have left. Staying on the reservation results in the same.

What's the advantage to staying on the reservation, then? Just the cheap booze?

orbister: Vanis:
That said, leaving the reservation is tantamount to losing what they have left. Staying on the reservation results in the same.

What's the advantage to staying on the reservation, then? Just the cheap booze?


Assuming each person can withstand the pressures to WANT to consume material possessions, most of the reservations can supply the simple lifestyle of an indigenous culture. The problem lies in the desire to want the trappings of an American lifestyle with the income of a Namibian village.

Wanting the trappings of the 21st century is, by default, wandering away from the reservation life. So just embrace it and assimilate.

Loving all the bootstrap-your-way-out-of-alcoholism in here. Keep on believing, LOLbertarian farkwits.

Elizabeth Warren should step in and help them:

1. She promotes consumer protection.
2. She has claimed to be part Indian on her job applications.

fickenchucker: orbister: Vanis:
That said, leaving the reservation is tantamount to losing what they have left. Staying on the reservation results in the same.

What's the advantage to staying on the reservation, then? Just the cheap booze?


Assuming each person can withstand the pressures to WANT to consume material possessions, most of the reservations can supply the simple lifestyle of an indigenous culture. The problem lies in the desire to want the trappings of an American lifestyle with the income of a Namibian village.

Dude, have you SEEN what the "simple lifestyle of an indigenous culture" looks like? Dying of alcoholism at 40 is an improvement.

rmoody: Loving all the bootstrap-your-way-out-of-alcoholism in here. Keep on believing, LOLbertarian farkwits.

So if you drank too much, who would you sue?

Great Porn Dragon: soul-crushing poverty, no realistic prospects of improving their lot in life...

How is this any different from life before the Europeans arrived? I know you were discussing Australia, but it's not like pre-Colombian Americans were wealthy. They were hunter-gathers living in what today would be called (materially, anyway) poverty, in a society that was basically stagnant over many generations. Their descendents may now seem poor, but that is only in comparison to the European settlers.

If one goes to the Amazon to find tribes living almost untouched by modern civilization, they are not "wealthy" either -- driving around in BMWs with 401k's and matching-contributions.

here to help: jshine: Great Porn Dragon: soul-crushing poverty, no realistic prospects of improving their lot in life...

How is this any different from life before the Europeans arrived? I know you were discussing Australia, but it's not like pre-Colombian Americans were wealthy. They were hunter-gathers living in what today would be called (materially, anyway) poverty, in a society that was basically stagnant over many generations. Their descendents may now seem poor, but that is only in comparison to the European settlers.

If one goes to the Amazon to find tribes living almost untouched by modern civilization, they are not "wealthy" either -- driving around in BMWs with 401k's and matching-contributions.

When the the land was bountiful they WERE rich by nature's standards... which is the only standard that counts in the long run.

You can't eat paper... or a BMW.


I don't think subsistence farming (or hunting/gathering) -- bounty of the land -- would qualify as the kind of wealth that the original-poster had in mind when he/she described "soul-crushing poverty". If you read that post, it sounds a lot more like he/she meant poverty = "a lack of material possessions".

here to help: You can't eat paper...

Also: Money can be exchanged for goods and services. That includes food.

here to help: You sure about that, jshine? Because it's not like they can (or you or I can) just walk out of our huts and snag some dinner out of the woods anymore. Being forced into a monetary system and then being CRUSHED by said imposed monetary system is... well... pretty sh*tty.

You and I can't -- it's generally illegal to hunt out of season ("poaching"). Those laws do not apply on Indian reservations. ...so subsistence hunting/gathering is at least theoretically an option. And in some cases it *is* still practiced.

If one leaves the reservation and joins the larger society, then yes, life is though in a different way. It's tough for all of us. Having to compete with millions of other people sucks, but it's not a problem that's unique to any one ethnic group.

I'm not saying that life is easy if you're from one of the indigenous cultures -- but life isn't easy in general.

here to help: jshine: Those laws do not apply on Indian reservations. ...so subsistence hunting/gathering is at least theoretically an option. And in some cases it *is* still practiced.

To an extent but let's just pretend that statement is completely true and there are absolutely no hunting restrictions on them. The fact remains the land and wildlife are depleted due to the European invasion and/or abuse of the land. It is impossible for them to return to a proper hunter/gatherer society because the land and wildlife have been destroyed by modern society.

In some cases that's probably true, but I would question how many people would really *want* to return to that lifestyle -- even if it was possible in all cases.

It's true, you'd be free of Citibank and the IRS -- but being free of money also means you'd also be free of vaccinations, antibiotics, tv, movies, books, cars, etc., etc. Infant mortality goes way up, and life expectancy goes way down.

Some native people may (and do) choose to make that trade-off, but I doubt it would be a popular choice. For all the bad aspects of modern Western life, there are a lot of good aspects too. I, for one, like an 80+ year life expectancy.

here to help: jshine: Those laws do not apply on Indian reservations. ...so subsistence hunting/gathering is at least theoretically an option. And in some cases it *is* still practiced.

To an extent but let's just pretend that statement is completely true and there are absolutely no hunting restrictions on them. The fact remains the land and wildlife are depleted due to the European invasion and/or abuse of the land. It is impossible for them to return to a proper hunter/gatherer society because the land and wildlife have been destroyed by modern society.

Nonsense. There were plenty of restrictions placed on them by other tribes as they fought each other for land/resources. The "evil" Europeans were just another "tribe" in the mix. It was not as if many tribes had clear undisbuted title. If you were to "give land back" which tribe would you give it back to? The Commance pushed the Apache out of much of Texas and the Objibwe forced theDakota/Lokata out of areas around the Great Lake are just two examples.. How do you think the Aztec, Inca, Mayan and Iroquois empires wer founded?

There was not one big group hug going on in the Western Hemisphere. There was plenty fo inter/intra tribal war going on long before the evil Europeans arrived. The American Indians were long practiced in war, slavery, genocide, human sacrifice cannibalism before Columbus arrived and yes, even environmental depredation.
citation

here to help: Look at some of the sheer hatred in this thread alone.

Where?

Lone Stranger: [monsterhunter.coldfusionvideo.com image 574x435]

That's what happens when you go to town.

She's actually kinda hot now.
but I'm 55 , so there's that.

here to help: Fish in a Barrel: here to help: Look at some of the sheer hatred in this thread alone.

Where?

You must have an impressive ignore list.

Well, yeah, but I don't think that's a factor here. For a Fark thread on a racial minority, I see a surprising lack of racism, trolling or otherwise. Perhaps you could point out a few examples for me.

Not all Indians are drunken losers, just the Plains ones'.

Maybe if they tried to do something with their lives, rather than just sitting around collecting benefits.

Just another group blaming whitey for their problems.

/me?
//more injun than liz warren.

sounds like a modern Hallelujah Trails story. Maybe hollywood will find a reason to remake the movie.

"sure...blame everyone for your problems...the stores, the breweries, the distributors......"

...the scum sucking bottom feeders profiting off of other people's misery....

There, fixed that for you.

TOG85: WIthout becoming a a socialist state where the government can decide what one can and can not do

Maverick Couch: Socialist? I believe the word you were looking for is authoritarian.

It's not about the government deciding what you can and can't do or becoming authoritarian. Nobody is suggesting that the "government knows best" or should impose discriminatory laws on its own initiative.

This is about a community trying to address one of its problems and asking for help. It's asking for the voluntary imposition of a ban which the local shop-keepers are free to accept.

Rather than help, or even do nothing, the shop-keepers and brewers have cynically taken the opportunity to expand and expand, taking advantage of some of the most vulnerable people in society.

The Natives have said that they have a problem as a society and as a society they need help overcoming it, which includes the removal of temptation / access to alcohol in a certain area that has no other requirement for large-scale alcohol supplies other than the people who want it removed.

This is a very different issue from individual alcoholics being banned from liquor stores, this is about a whole society.

This is an excellent book re: the problems for the Aboriginal people of Australia:

Why Warriors Lie down and die

Greedy white man profiteering off others by creating misery in the world? OoOoOo, shocking.

Pert: This is about a community trying to address one of its problems and asking for help. It's asking for the voluntary imposition of a ban which the local shop-keepers are free to accept.

Rather than help, or even do nothing, the shop-keepers and brewers have cynically taken the opportunity to expand and expand, taking advantage of some of the most vulnerable people in society.

They aren't asking.

What woudl you have the shop keepers do? They either have to stop selling booze completely (denying the people in the area who aren't natives the choice to have it) or they have to sell to the natives (refusing them service ont he basis of their race is illegal).

here to help: hasty ambush: There was not one big group hug going on in the Western Hemisphere.

Yeah... that's not what I said and you know it.

I wonder how much whining Europe would be doing now if the NA natives had taken over their lands, imposed their politics, spirituality, etc... and were forced onto sh*tty little reserves in Wales and Romania while having no prospect to live a normal life due to bigotry.

Oh but they ALLOWED themselves to be conquered so it's okay.

I'm sure Hitler felt the same way about his particular goals and aspirations on the global scene.

that's right... GODWINNED!!!

Nobody is forcing anybody to stay on sh*tty reservations which are sh*tty mostly due to tribal poltics and corruption. Look at all the theft of tribal funds. by tribal councils, the corruption and political favoritism in the allocation and reallocation of tribal lands etc. The bigggest crimes being commited against the American Indian today are by his/her fellow American Indians; that and this constant defeatist "I am a victim" attitude.

You want to know what is holding back the Native Americans as a race besides I am a victim attitude? It is the reservations and an unwillingness to assimulate. In many ways it is as bad as Afghanistan where you have a population still stuck trying to live in the 7th Century.
You can be proud of your heritage but you have to accept that the days of hunting buffalo on the plains or raiding an enemy tribe for slaves and horses is over. The people of Norway seem to be able to get buy with out being able to raid English monasteries.

Except for areas where there is a high concetration of stupid like the Balkans and Ireland most of Europe seems to have gotten over stuff that happended centuries ago. Few Europeans are still whining and sniveling about the Normans, Saxons, Vikings Huns, Romans, Moors etc. Heck most of them have even put World War II behind them.

As far as the alcohol thing goes . It is like if you have and allergic to certain foods, you do not eat them. You do not insist that that item no longer be made available to others (like the NAZI moms of those kids with peanut allergies). Are American Indians incapable of making this type of decision on their own? Are you looking for a law to make it illegal to sell alcohol to Indians? Should we add guns to the list? Should the American Indian only be able to buy and sell items through authorized licensed agents of the Federeal government?

imdani2u: What is not understood by most people is that Native Americans' bodies are not designed to metabolize alcohol like the rest of us. This is a segment of our "society" that has been left out, forgotten about, and whenever there are racial issues going on, the Native Americans "should suck it up and stop whining"...in reference to the Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians, among other things. African Americans complain about Aunt Jemima, the Uncle Ben's logo, why is this ok? Why is there a double standard against the people our ancestors stole this country from and damned near exterminated on a level way worse than the Holocaust? Yes I'm heated and proud Cherokee/Italian American.

Way worse than the Holocaust? I'm sorry, when did early Americans perform medical experiments on children? Where exactly are the sites of the US gas chambers where millions were put to death? Stop it, you're letting your idiot show through.

There is a huge difference between killing people for who they are and conquering people for what they have.

fickenchucker:
Wanting the trappings of the 21st century is, by default, wandering away from the reservation life. So just embrace it and assimilate.

Something similar is happening in the Outer Hebrides, where an austere lifestyle of subsistence farming and fishing under the watchful eye of extremist presbyterian zealots grows ever less attractive to the young. Many of them leave - and the Hebrides have some of the highest alcohol and hard drug addiction rates in Europe.

Paradise is relative.

here to help:

According to their supporters here, Native Americans are weak-willed imbeciles who need laws to prevent them indulging their fatal attraction to alcohol. That image is not necessarily one which is going to help in the job market, is it?

/not saying I agree
/but with friends like those

here to help: I wonder how much whining Europe would be doing now if the NA natives had taken over their lands, imposed their politics, spirituality, etc... and were forced onto sh*tty little reserves in Wales and Romania while having no prospect to live a normal life due to bigotry.

Who forces Native Americans to live on reserves?

Pert:
This is about a community trying to address one of its problems and asking for help. It's asking for the voluntary imposition of a ban which the local shop-keepers are free to accept.

OK, so a shop keeper agrees to the request and promises to stop selling liquor to the injuns. Someone with dark skin comes into the shop and says "A pint of your finest hooch, my good fellow".

"Oh no", says the shop keeper, "I'm not selling you any. Your skin is too dark."

What's the legal position at that point? Perhaps it's different in the US, but in the UK I am pretty sure that you can't get away with racial discrimination by saying "Some members of that race asked me to discriminate against other members of that race."

Terrible Old Man: Greedy white man profiteering off others by creating misery in the world? OoOoOo, shocking.

What about greedy casino owners profiting from gambling addictions?

Rik01: Kind of like the current crackdown on tobacco smoking.


Which is also crap.

Engaging in vices actually saves money in the long run.

With the starting point being everyone dies at some point, and most of those deaths involve expensive medical treatments near the end, "deaths caused by X and are expensive" is a bullshiat argument.

Dying earlier due to vices shortens the time spent on Medicare and Medicaid and society benefits.

Each person's family might be sad about the early death, but that's up to the person with the vice, not society at large to dictate what's right and what's wrong.

/Ever notice many of the people who think vices are bad and want to save the world are also the same ones who think killing babies is a good idea via abortion on demand?

//And if you think that's a lame analogy and abortion is a good idea, then why do you want to restrict alcohol, pot, tobacco, and other things? Because you know better and want to infantilize everyone who disagrees with you?

///Really don't give a crap about abortion--just pointing out the illogic.

here to help: hasty ambush: Nobody is forcing anybody to stay on sh*tty reservations

Then why are they there? I'll tell you why. Because they get treated like sh*t anywhere else and their economic prospects off the reserves wouldn't allow for them to comfortably "assimilate" to our society (what are you... the freaking Borg?).

citation? I would argue that their economic prospects would have to be considerable enhanced off the reservations, granted the handouts would be diminished, but their prospects for employment would be better. As much as I am opposed to illegal immigration at least the illegal immigrants are smart and energetic enough to get off their rear and go looking for a place they can make a better life instead of sitting on their rear hoping things get better where they are at while playing the victim.

You do not have to assimulate but when you lack the ability or refuse to work/live in the language and culture in which most of the busness in a country is done do not be surprised if you do not prosper in that country. You MIGHT do OK as some have done in the Chinatowns and Hispanic communities but American Indians only make up about 1% of the nations total population; hardly a big enough market share to warrant a lot of investment.

apiarist: I got as far as "Ward Churchill" and gave up

Granted, that was a pretty stupid witch hunt.

Pert: TOG85:
Why Warriors Lie down and die

Because we played Cowboys and Indians, and the indians got the gold star for participating?

/seriously, i am part indian. wouldn't live on pine ridge, as it seems to be a slow death at the hands of your own people.