PonceAlyosha: That follows the books. All of Rob's battles are off screen except Blackwater, which is pretty much the last fourth of the second book. Martin's writing that episode himself and he said it's their bank buster for the season.

Basically, the battle of the Blackwater is the reason for this:

PonceAlyosha: They have to show up at some point. They become pretty important pretty soon, and they become extremely important in A Dance With Dragons.

They have been cut and Osha will serve their role.

[I'm OK with this.jpg]

The Brann chapters started to get draggy and annoying anyways, esp. Jojen getting more and more obsessed and growing weaker & weaker. Streamlining is good.

Tax Boy: The Brann chapters started to get draggy and annoying anyways, esp. Jojen getting more and more obsessed and growing weaker & weaker. Streamlining is good.

Yeah. I'm FAR more disappointed that it looks like we may not get any "weasel soup".

PonceAlyosha: Martin's writing that episode himself

How about he knocks that shiat off and finishes the last two damn books!

Skyrmion: I'm pretty sure at one point they specifically numbered the horde at over "a hundred thousand". Not that logistic support for 30k is possible either.

The books make it clear that his Mance's entire host is around 40k. Although, in later books it also becomes clear that people's estimates of large numbers of Wildings is skewed high,

Mad_Radhu:I don't know about you, but I'm not about to go getting all stabby with a woman who has shadow creatures coming out of her hoo-ha.

Nah, Davos knew what was going on at that point. He's a moral guy, and knew that Melisandre was driving his lord to corruption and madness. He should have tried to kill her. Presumably he was thinking of the guy who tried to poison her just a few days ago and got killed for his troubles - was he present for that? I'm pretty sure he was. Also, he's got his wife and kids to think of, I suppose. Still, it's always bothered me that he didn't try to assassinate her then and there. He seems like the kind of guy who would die for Stannis's benefit, and in my opinion killing Melisandre makes sense for that kind of motivation.

Watching something like that would immediately tell me that my lord was on the wrong path, and it's clear that Davos already thinks that about all this Red God business.

SteelDraco: He seems like the kind of guy who would die for Stannis's benefit, and in my opinion killing Melisandre makes sense for that kind of motivation.

It's not clear at all that Melisandre is bad for Stannis. Sure, her methods are unconventional...

I'm basically just gonna go cold turkey on any more GRRM's books that's not Dunk and Egg. They are getting too damn depressing for my taste, with no "Hell yeah, my guy is winning" moments.

Skyrmion: SteelDraco: He seems like the kind of guy who would die for Stannis's benefit, and in my opinion killing Melisandre makes sense for that kind of motivation.

It's not clear at all that Melisandre is bad for Stannis. Sure, her methods are unconventional...

(Still spoilery for the books!)

Huh. I disagree. I've never seen her as anything other than a complete villain, probably the purest in the series other than maybe Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. Even Cersei and Tywin have reasonable motivations, protecting their family and such. Heck, she's less sympathetic to me than the guy up in the north that sells his male babies to the Others. Melisandre has never seemed at all sympathetic to me. Is there something that changes that perception in Dance with Dragons? I haven't picked that one up - I didn't enjoy Feast for Crows at all, so I'm behind.

If she's given more depth in the newest book, that might actually be enough motivation to get back into reading it. She seemed to me like an evil member of an ostensibly good-hearted religion, using its tenets to corrupt Stannis and get him to wage her own private crusade. Thoros is a member of the same religion, as I remember, but he's portrayed quite differently - isn't he the guy who takes up the role of Friar Tuck in the Brotherhood without Banners and starts raising people from the dead?

I suppose she does spend later books trying to convince people that the real danger is from the North. Is it her idea to use Stannis's army to reinforce the Wall?

amindtat: PonceAlyosha: Martin's writing that episode himself

How about he knocks that shiat off and finishes the last two damn books!

Finish the books? He can't even update the "ASOIAF update" section of his website in a year.

SteelDraco: Is there something that changes that perception in Dance with Dragons?

I would say so. You see a lot more of her in DwD, and her character gets more depth.

Masso: I'm basically just gonna go cold turkey on any more GRRM's books that's not Dunk and Egg. They are getting too damn depressing for my taste, with no "Hell yeah, my guy is winning" moments.



The storylines for Arya Tyrion and Dany end on high notes (comparatively speaking) in Dance with Dragons.

Some others don't fair as well but thems the breaks.

Martin puts his characters through a lot of shiat. He's like the gay love child of Cormac McCarthy and Tolkien.

SteelDraco: Skyrmion: SteelDraco: He seems like the kind of guy who would die for Stannis's benefit, and in my opinion killing Melisandre makes sense for that kind of motivation.

It's not clear at all that Melisandre is bad for Stannis. Sure, her methods are unconventional...

(Still spoilery for the books!)

Huh. I disagree. I've never seen her as anything other than a complete villain, probably the purest in the series other than maybe Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. Even Cersei and Tywin have reasonable motivations, protecting their family and such. Heck, she's less sympathetic to me than the guy up in the north that sells his male babies to the Others. Melisandre has never seemed at all sympathetic to me. Is there something that changes that perception in Dance with Dragons? I haven't picked that one up - I didn't enjoy Feast for Crows at all, so I'm behind.

If she's given more depth in the newest book, that might actually be enough motivation to get back into reading it. She seemed to me like an evil member of an ostensibly good-hearted religion, using its tenets to corrupt Stannis and get him to wage her own private crusade. Thoros is a member of the same religion, as I remember, but he's portrayed quite differently - isn't he the guy who takes up the role of Friar Tuck in the Brotherhood without Banners and starts raising people from the dead?

I suppose she does spend later books trying to convince people that the real danger is from the North. Is it her idea to use Stannis's army to reinforce the Wall?

Without being too spoilery, in answer to your first question...

Yes.


/ ADWD is still a huge slog of a book. About as bad as AFFC. I've only read it once. I'm not going to be reading it again anytime soon and that's from a big fan.

imgod2u: Thus far, she's won him the army from Renly. I don't know what your definition of "villain" is but she seems to have no malicious intent towards anyone. It's made pretty clear that she's prepping an army -- and sees Stannis as its leader -- to fight the upcoming cold (the Others) as her prophecies tell.

Her methods aren't the most stereotypically heroic but her motives doesn't at any point show malice.

*SPOILER*

Well, other than the whole human sacrifice thing.

Skyrmion: I'm pretty sure at one point they specifically numbered the horde at over "a hundred thousand". Not that logistic support for 30k is possible either.

You're right. No way anyone without modern technology could live in a place that was all ice.

imgod2u: Thus far, she's won him the army from Renly. I don't know what your definition of "villain" is but she seems to have no malicious intent towards anyone. It's made pretty clear that she's prepping an army -- and sees Stannis as its leader -- to fight the upcoming cold (the Others) as her prophecies tell.

Her methods aren't the most stereotypically heroic but her motives doesn't at any point show malice.

I suppose it boils down to this: I don't believe that she believes what she claims. It never seems like she's telling the truth - I feel like she's lying to EVERYONE when she talks about her motivations. Maybe that changes in ADWD, but she just always comes off as slimy and creepy to me. I don't trust her when she describes the prophecies and such behind what she's doing. I suspect she's playing a long con with Stannis to some nefarious purpose.

I say her methods are straight-up villainous. While the series certainly has enough complexity for her to have good intentions underneath her evil methods, I just don't buy it. Thoros arguably has good intentions with evil methods (necromancy) but I'm still thinking Melisandre will turn out to be one of the most significant villains of the whole series.

SteelDraco: imgod2u: Thus far, she's won him the army from Renly. I don't know what your definition of "villain" is but she seems to have no malicious intent towards anyone. It's made pretty clear that she's prepping an army -- and sees Stannis as its leader -- to fight the upcoming cold (the Others) as her prophecies tell.

Her methods aren't the most stereotypically heroic but her motives doesn't at any point show malice.

I suppose it boils down to this: I don't believe that she believes what she claims. It never seems like she's telling the truth - I feel like she's lying to EVERYONE when she talks about her motivations. Maybe that changes in ADWD, but she just always comes off as slimy and creepy to me. I don't trust her when she describes the prophecies and such behind what she's doing. I suspect she's playing a long con with Stannis to some nefarious purpose.

I say her methods are straight-up villainous. While the series certainly has enough complexity for her to have good intentions underneath her evil methods, I just don't buy it. Thoros arguably has good intentions with evil methods (necromancy) but I'm still thinking Melisandre will turn out to be one of the most significant villains of the whole series.

Melisandre gets a viewpoint chapter [not the intro or epilogue, which would be a spoiler to reveal] in ADWD, and that's pretty much where people's opinion on her is fully fleshed out. I think she's got great PR, but little else.

Dang it... now I might have to buy ADWD. I didn't realize she got a viewpoint chapter at all. I don't read that much any more!

Wonder if the audiobook is any good, I've got an hour in the carpool ride each day and can listen to stuff at work.

imgod2u: It took the audiobook to get me through most of AFFC. ADWD is a chore as well but I was in a very bored place in my life. Kindle app on your phone + morning time on the throne can be great at getting you through it.

/When you play the Game of Thrones, you shiat or you die.

Just watch out for midgets.

MugzyBrown: I want to play with that map and all the little toy, mechanical cities!

Game of Thrones' Intro Replaces Gears With LEGO

cevarius: MugzyBrown: I want to play with that map and all the little toy, mechanical cities!

Game of Thrones' Intro Replaces Gears With LEGO

Yeah that was... boring.

Superjew: George Martin has stated that the weather of Westeros is magical in nature and will be explained at the end of the series.

LINK

Assuming he stops scarfing down hamburgers like they're going out of style and survives to finish the series you mean...

Jurodan: Superjew: George Martin has stated that the weather of Westeros is magical in nature and will be explained at the end of the series.

LINK

Assuming he stops scarfing down hamburgers like they're going out of style and survives to finish the series you mean...

That's ok, they'll just have Brandon Sanderson finish it. Or if the world is just, perhaps Joe Abercrombie or Scott Lynch

wippit: SteelDraco: The only one I remember was Stannis being a grammar Nazi, toward Ser Davos. There was a brief less/fewer conversation regarding his knuckle bones. I thought it was a very clever way of encapsulating just what a tightass pain in the rear Stannis is. Yes, you're about to assassinate your BROTHER with a demon-monster-baby, but you still feel it necessary to correct someone's grammar. Such a hardnosed ass.


He did it also when dictating the letter to announce the Incest Angle:

"Jaime the Kingslayer, call him what he is."

"Make that Ser Jaime the Kingslayer. He earned his knighthood, whatever his other faults are"

That was one of best done scenes of the season so far. They were able to push along the plot and sum up Stannis' character and feelings towards his brothers in a few short lines of dialogue.

I just got into GoT thanks to HBOGo on Xbox. Also thanks to HBOGo and not keeping with, what I will call the standard that Netflix started, they order the episodes strangely.

I ended up watching the last ep of Season 1 thinking it was the first ep. Talk about lost.

/and super spoiler-ish

John Nash: Skyrmion: I'm pretty sure at one point they specifically numbered the horde at over "a hundred thousand". Not that logistic support for 30k is possible either.

You're right. No way anyone without modern technology could live in a place that was all ice.

[www.alaska-in-pictures.com image 234x157]

Nice try, but it's about population densities, and what you can support with hunting, fishing, and occasional gathering as opposed to agriculture.

Skyrmion: John Nash: Skyrmion: I'm pretty sure at one point they specifically numbered the horde at over "a hundred thousand". Not that logistic support for 30k is possible either.

You're right. No way anyone without modern technology could live in a place that was all ice.

[www.alaska-in-pictures.com image 234x157]

Nice try, but it's about population densities, and what you can support with hunting, fishing, and occasional gathering as opposed to agriculture.

That's the point of Mance Rayder. He brought all those people together to storm the Wall because they were all scattered and separate in the first place and vulnerable to the Others.

I never saw Melisandre as a villain. She's acting on whatever she sees in the flames.

Consider this:

Stannis sends in an assassin to kill Renly -- it is considered a cowardly act, but its effective.

The Night Watch is sending in a small group to try to assassinate Mance Rayder instead of fight his horde in open battle. No one bats an eye.

There is nothing but shades of gray for all the characters and factions, whether or not you see them as good or evil. You win or you die.

You can explain it all with one word: FICTION.

redmond24: There is nothing but shades of gray for all the characters and factions, whether or not you see them as good or evil. You win or you die.

OK, sorry, that sets off a rant that has less to do with GRRM than the theme itself. I don't see much gray about "you win or you die". If you believe that you're a cynical bastard. Sure, terms like "good" or "evil" may not apply, but I find nothing inherently deep about that. It's just like calling a simple tone "purple" -- the concept is simple; the adjective just doesn't fit because cynicism isn't about morality in the first place. But within its own context (trusting or cynical) it's a rudimentary extreme, and as a result invariably these sorts of free-for-alls aren't nearly as unbiased as they're made out to be. Now, before I get a "lighten up Francis" retort, the reason this gets to me is because while I don't know which led to what, my generation is rather blind to the upside of playing straight. We think trust is for suckers, and came up with derogatory names for honest people. So we eat this "dog eat dog" shiat like it's candy and, as if to have it both ways, call it "deep". It's shameful and annoying. Truth is, SoIaF is not unique or even remotely original -- at least in this specific aspect -- but just the latest in a long line of cynical GenX pop culture where being honest means you're either a misguided simpleton or about to get your teeth kicked in. Hell, as shown upthread, we've even convinced ourselves life sucked for all of history. It's bullshiat.

Honestly, how many more of these "trust no one" stories have to be made before we start calling it tripe? GRRM's strength isn't the faux "shades of gray" aspect, it's the level of interaction he invests in characters (before slaughtering half of them). It's an amazing well of character development and destruction. GRRM's cannon fodder is more interesting than many writers' protagonists. THAT'S what gets people reading his books. And that's fine. But the "dog eat dog" part? OK, I get it, Farkers love it. Farkers are cynical, by and large, so it makes sense. But please, let's be honest here. "Dog eat dog" is GenX's pulp. I got tired of it years ago, and after the gazillionth "trust no one" tagline I kinda stopped eating the BS that it's somehow original or deep.

Magorn: I'd recommend to you a good history of the "warring States" period in Japan for an example of how the "trust no one" ethic seems to underlie almost all interactions in a fuedal system. It was not uncommon for Daimyo to switch sides during battles much less before them.

I'm vaguely versed with Japan's feudal period, but one way or another, this isn't really about what happened, per se. It's about why GenX is fascinated by feudal periods, in this way, in the first place. Because they were bloody? Probably, but that particular aspect has been romanticized ad nauseum. The difference is that classic pop fiction uses it as a stage for some hero to shine. I daresay GenX identifies with the dysfunction. We see politicians and businesses shatter the public trust and think it's normal. And it may be. After all, how is the feudal social structure fundamentally different from capitalism? It's for money instead of blood, but businesses that don't go under post haste generally aren't loyal to anyone either. They switch suppliers, lay off workers, undercut their partners, etc. all the time. I can only laugh or scream at Republican suggestions that businesses should be trusted when (and I know from firsthand experience) frankly the only thing reliable about the market is that, in an absence of regulation, everything is a race to the bottom. Anything that isn't written in a contract is fair game. The problem is that's as far as they think.

In reality, while disloyalty can lead to instability, this doesn't result in chaos. What it does result in is caution, which (when it gets bad enough) leads to stagnation -- which is why people hate it so much. You can't do anything when everyone you see is an enemy, which invariably leads to demand for trust. As a result many businesses become quite successful by maintaining reputations for trustworthiness -- and why not? Working with them makes managing your own problems much easier. That's the appeal. However, these "honest" businesses certainly don't expect anyone to return the favor. They're not stupid. They have lawyers and contingency plans and "second sources" -- people who know what they're doing, even the honest ones, are always ready for that knife in the back. It really doesn't even matter when the knife flies; they're already prepared for it. If you're a field commander you may not expect a daimyo's loyalty, but that doesn't mean you can't predict how they'll behave. To the contrary, mercenaries are quite predictable, and smart commanders know how to use that to their advantage. You do not need to be a liar to know how to deal with one.

I'm not denying those dysfunctional feudal periods never happened, or were even exceptional. Nor do I think using them as inspiration for fiction is inherently bad. Just. . . unimpressive. My frustration is in the blind opinion that it's inherently clever. GenX has this unhealthy fascination with distrust that results in an annoying projection of their cynicism onto everything. They think there's no good solution for the problem that some people are just dishonest assholes, and this is reflected in the pop culture of the day. ZOMG some people are lying liars -- the world is gonna implode!! This is emo teenager logic, dude. Yet they have the gall to call these representations of their cynical worldview in fiction "deep" with this amazing cognitive dissonance preventing them from noticing that "trust no one" is a goddamn CLICHE at this point.

Again, this isn't a direct indictment of GRRM, or saying his writing (or source of inspiration) is bad -- just that this particular theme is a non-factor for me. You cannot impress me with phrases like "shades of gray" anymore. I get it -- his writing is dark and full of cruelty. Big. Farking. Whoop. A lot of people like that, fair enough. But whether we're going to praise or criticize his writing, I want to state that this is just a flavor of fiction no better or worse than any other.

Because Magic, that's why.

Bill Frist: its a fake planet in a fantasy world with dragons and zombies. Jesus christ, SF nerds have to obsess over the dumbest shiat.

Haha, this.