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(NPR)   A Christian Minister comes to find out just how Christian her community is after she comes as an Atheist   (npr.org) divider line 634
    More: Florida, American Atheists, United Methodist Church, Southern Baptist, Teresa MacBain  
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27813 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Apr 2012 at 6:23 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-30 10:56:50 PM  

Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Heh Heh...when the Devil has to go down to Georgia what does that tell you

I should have named my vagina Puerto Rico.

My penis I named Sri Lanka, I'm not wearing any panties, I keep the twisty milk gallon tabs and use them as a gourd for Sri Lanka

I don't even know why I'm laughing at this, but I know what to name my tits now

I'm praying to Sir Winnie Churchill that you've named them dagobas and palaces

Dagobas Palaces of the Twisty Winnie, but I call them Milk Gallon Tabs for short.

/I'm entering them in the next American Carnal Tit championship


You do realize now that I'm completely smitten
 
2012-04-30 10:57:23 PM  

Loud_Mouth_Soup: I'm sure it's been pointed out somwhere, but I just had to say the first thing I thought of.


"That's why I spent 23 years in the Army. That's why I'm still a police officer. We have freedom of speech and freedom of thought. And God never forced anybody to believe, so who am I to step up?"

This man is what Christians should be. He lives without any hate for what she did. Too bad so many loud ones are not.


Well, God did tell his people that if they find a place where the inhabitants won't convert, that they were to kill everyone there and take their belongings.
 
2012-04-30 11:02:28 PM  

Farking Canuck: spectrek: To my way of understanding, one can have a religion without professing to have ever had a genuine experience of spiritual transformation by way of God: it seems that all she did is trade one brand of religion for another.

Ahhh ... another person who thinks a lack of religion is a religion.

I find it ironic that the religious feel the need to re-frame atheism as a religion so that they can attack it. It is almost as if they recognize that religion is inherently flawed.

She arrived at atheism in the same way most of us did: by examining religion an seeing it for what it is ... a scam designed by men to separate weak minded people from their money.


The kids these days, they don't like religion. It's so wack yo! They just like worshiping Jesus..at the church they love. Only lame atheists are religious dog.
 
2012-04-30 11:05:35 PM  
gimmegimme: Well, if you believe in your religion on faith, there's really no argument we can have the validity of religion.

I am curious; knowing what you know the Bible says about homosexuality, do you think your brother is set for Hell if he continues on his current track?

What I really don't understand is how you pick and choose what "Christianity" says about such topics. The Bible does indeed condemn a number of groups of people and a number of behaviors. I honestly don't understand how people can ONLY focus on the admittedly Jean Valjean-esque facets of the Jesus story while completely ignoring all of the nasty bits. I'm not a very big fan of the Thenardiers and their philosophy of life, but I can't extricate them from Hugo's narrative.


Sadly, I think that he is. Not because he's gay, though. Because he's pursuing that instead of what Jesus taught. I think that because he's gay his struggle with his faith has been a lot harder for him than it is for people who struggle with more "normal" sins. He's had to worry about a lot more pressure from society (and Christians) than most of us. But I'm holding out hope for him.

I'm not trying to pick and choose. And yeah, the Bible condemns and cautions against behaviors and groups, because that was the shiat they were dealing with at the time. What I'm saying is is that God does not hate people. Here's how that works:

1. Jesus, when he died, paid for everybody's sins. God hated him instead of us. Basic, I know, but I'm building something here.
2. That way, no matter how much you sin, God will still forgive you if you turn toward him and repent of it.
3. The way most people interpret that is, "Great, I've got a free pass on sinning, and stuff!" But that's not how it is. If you have faith in God, and you repent, then God will work in your life, and good works will come out of that.

Humans are universally weak, stupid, hypocritical, self-interested things. But God can lift up anybody. Anyone at all, which brings us to point 4:

Loving Teacher: That is nice and all but I don't see that in the bible. I see lots of "if you aren't a christian you're going to hell". If there is some scriptural support for your assertions I'd love to hear them, I'm tired of self-righteous christians telling me who is going to hell and I'd love to be able to shut them up.

As I said earlier in the thread, Jesus was always hanging out with sinners: prostitutes, tax collectors, and even people who weren't Jewish. That's why the religious people hated him so much. Shoot, today's self-righteous Christians would've crucified him twice as fast as the Romans did.

If you are a Christian in the modern-day sense, I would say that you probably are going to hell. But if you repent and have faith that somebody else paid the debt that you owe, that is true Christianity.

If your friends were true Christians, they would stop trying to sell you on it and quit condemning you.
 
2012-04-30 11:06:03 PM  

Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Heh Heh...when the Devil has to go down to Georgia what does that tell you

I should have named my vagina Puerto Rico.

My penis I named Sri Lanka, I'm not wearing any panties, I keep the twisty milk gallon tabs and use them as a gourd for Sri Lanka

I don't even know why I'm laughing at this, but I know what to name my tits now

I'm praying to Sir Winnie Churchill that you've named them dagobas and palaces

Dagobas Palaces of the Twisty Winnie, but I call them Milk Gallon Tabs for short.

/I'm entering them in the next American Carnal Tit championship


ho ho that'll rile up the choir when they try and meld into the congregation! and before the Summer Solstice no less!

Promise me that when they win, you'll have your tits announced as The Greatest Quarks & leptons this land has ever seen!
 
2012-04-30 11:06:56 PM  
" I am a jealous God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

1. That means there are other Gods?

2. Jealousy is a human emotion often negative. Imperfect. God is supposed to be perfect so how can he feel jealousy? Does not compute, does not compute, overload beep, whir.

"Will I dream?"
 
2012-04-30 11:08:03 PM  

tonguedepressor: Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Salt Lick Steady: tonguedepressor: Heh Heh...when the Devil has to go down to Georgia what does that tell you

I should have named my vagina Puerto Rico.

My penis I named Sri Lanka, I'm not wearing any panties, I keep the twisty milk gallon tabs and use them as a gourd for Sri Lanka

I don't even know why I'm laughing at this, but I know what to name my tits now

I'm praying to Sir Winnie Churchill that you've named them dagobas and palaces

Dagobas Palaces of the Twisty Winnie, but I call them Milk Gallon Tabs for short.

/I'm entering them in the next American Carnal Tit championship

ho ho that'll rile up the choir when they try and meld into the congregation! and before the Summer Solstice no less!

Promise me that when they win, you'll have your tits announced as The Greatest Quarks & leptons this land has ever seen!


Don't make me swing suddenly to the left in your face.
 
2012-04-30 11:10:44 PM  
I'm not an expert on these things, so just throwing this out as a question. Do clergy members sign some kind of contract that might have legal ramifications if they "come out" like that or otherwise act "unpriestly" during a church service?
 
2012-04-30 11:11:43 PM  

smeegle: WhyteRaven74: Also Paul was very much into the equal standing of women. At the end of the letter to the Romans he names several women and explicitly states a few of them as doing God's work, and even mentions one as a deaconess.

That was the woman he travelled with who was into celibacy. As I understand it his relationship with her caused a bit of controversy. Husbands were not amused.
Here'a a question. Who wrote, "Women shall be silent in the church?" (Paraphrased)

The books of today's Bible and the ones left out have been translated many times over as you are well aware. And written several hundred years after. Stories handed down, interpretations, maybe some grains of truth left.
Who lives hundreds of years? I mean really, life was tough and cheap back then. Just ask the Romans.


Seriously. I can't imagine there would be a kind of people who are overwhelmingly Christian, claim to value life very highly, fight to eliminate abortion rights while supporting the death penalty and utterly pointless wars that ruin lives and countries half a world away because they believe the wars will benefit themselves.

Live is indeed very cheap for some people*

1.bp.blogspot.com

*Unless the baby is unborn. Then it needs to be protected, even two weeks before it is conceived.
 
2012-04-30 11:14:20 PM  

smeegle: . Who wrote, "Women shall be silent in the church?" (Paraphrased)


That comes out of 1 Timothy which was written by who knows who. But definitely not Paul.
 
2012-04-30 11:16:22 PM  

tonguedepressor: Promise me that when they win, you'll have your tits announced as The Greatest Quarks & leptons this land has ever seen!


I didn't even know I was nominated, It's this strangely charming top!

/and I do bottom
 
2012-04-30 11:20:39 PM  

WhyteRaven74: smeegle: . Who wrote, "Women shall be silent in the church?" (Paraphrased)

That comes out of 1 Timothy which was written by who knows who. But definitely not Paul.


It was Ricky, apostle of the diaspora
 
2012-04-30 11:24:14 PM  

Mr. Holmes: Humans are universally weak, stupid, hypocritical, self-interested things. But God can lift up anybody. Anyone at all, which brings us to point 4:


Excuse me, sorry to interrupt but I had this come to me while I was reading your post.
Don't you think it's rather weird to create a species then show them this tree and tell them not to eat of it's fruit, when he knows the faults of his creation? God knows they're gonna blow the first Covenant. All of the sudden it becomes a deal breaker so he boots them out of Paradise, just like he did Lucifer. Then he goes back for a second try, and his creations blow that one too. He knows they're gonna do it.
So then he sends down this usurper, this hippy peace-nick guy that hangs out with prostitutes and other hippies. Lo and behold once again, they fark it all up and the Establishment (Elders) manipulate the Law (Rome) to get rid of the usurper. But this time it's special, third times a charm and it all becomes about the blood of the hippy that turns out to be born of a virgin and the son of God.

Taken at face value, it's a little weird. But hey, I like the Hippy's message, just seems like a long twisty way to go about it.
No disrespect intended just trying to shorten the story for short attention span theatre known as Fark :)
 
2012-04-30 11:27:07 PM  

Salt Lick Steady: It was Ricky, apostle of the diaspora


Frothy did it. He went back in time.
 
2012-04-30 11:29:09 PM  

WhyteRaven74: But definitely not Paul.


It was his evil twin, Saul.
 
2012-04-30 11:49:34 PM  

Somacandra: Cagey B: Also, I find these "conventions" and "coming out" when it comes to atheism to be really weird. It's not the "Religion of No God",

[upload.wikimedia.org image 267x386]

Speak for yourself. For some it really is a religion onto itself.

Great book--disillusioned WWII vet starts anti-God ministry in the South, becoming an antipriest.


I'm sorry, did you just put a Flannery O'Connor novel and "great book" in the same post? They don't belong together. It's like calling Ayn Rand a great philosopher or novelist (... or great anything, for that matter). Stop doing it.
 
2012-05-01 12:14:49 AM  

WhyteRaven74: The tribe has no concept of anything that could be described as divine or even spiritual, and their own thinking is almost purely in the present.


Do you remember the name? I would guess New Guinea.
 
2012-05-01 12:18:41 AM  

gimmegimme: You have asserted that one part of the Bible is wrong and another is correct. Many Christians would disagree with you, as you're negating a fundamental tenet of their faith. I'm just wondering how you arrived at your understanding


On a sliding scale, yes. Most would, but most are wrong(also in the Bible). By not paying much attention to tenets.
 
2012-05-01 12:19:25 AM  
I can argue Christianity/religion being farked from the oddest of perspectives.

This is perspective A1 for me:

So the whole deal is that you are "good" on this earth, and then get to go to heaven, right? Heaven is a joyous place where you will be euphoric for eternity. Hell is eternal damnation. I consider heaven just as scary as hell, and I don't know anyone has even challenged it from that perspective.

I don't think many of you have spent time at 3 AM thinking about infinity. Infinity is the scariest concept in the universe.

So I'm there in heaven, FOREVER, and I can't check out?

Do you know what eternity is? Think you can't stand working 8 hours as if it was forever?

Imagine being stuck somewhere forever and ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever ever and ever, AND KEEP GOING!

Can you smoke crack in heaven? If that's bliss to you, you should be able to. But you can't check out once you get there. You're stuck, whether you like it or not.

And on infinity, we all sit and pontificate on the afterlife, not enough of us pontificate on the before life. I didn't exist for billions of years, I wasn't cognizant of it, and that's fine by me. You live, you die, and the universe doesn't give a shiat. Life is beautiful because there is a beginning and end.
 
2012-05-01 12:20:32 AM  

James F. Campbell: Somacandra: Cagey B: Also, I find these "conventions" and "coming out" when it comes to atheism to be really weird. It's not the "Religion of No God",

[upload.wikimedia.org image 267x386]

Speak for yourself. For some it really is a religion onto itself.

Great book--disillusioned WWII vet starts anti-God ministry in the South, becoming an antipriest.

I'm sorry, did you just put a Flannery O'Connor novel and "great book" in the same post? They don't belong together. It's like calling Ayn Rand a great philosopher or novelist (... or great anything, for that matter). Stop doing it.


It's time for the midnight lunch. Shouldn't you be sleep working?
 
2012-05-01 12:26:10 AM  

GoSurfing: But you can't check out once you get there. You're stuck, whether you like it or not.

And on infinity, we all sit and pontificate on the afterlife, not enough of us pontificate on the before life. I didn't exist for billions of years, I wasn't cognizant of it, and that's fine by me. You live, you die, and the universe doesn't give a shiat. Life is beautiful because there is a beginning and end.


You can check out but you can never leave!

Well yes, I have pondered that concept, that's what makes the whole deal implausible.

My lil ole perspective is related to infinity but there's a lot going on, like cause and affect.
Infinity is monstrous to grapple with. I don't think the confines of our brains can really grok it.
 
2012-05-01 12:29:25 AM  

GoSurfing: So the whole deal is that you are "good" on this earth, and then get to go to heaven, right?


That is one tenet of the Babylonian Mystery Religion which has been adopted by modern Christianity, yes. I believe the biggest problem is the poor understanding of the difference between the three words which were all translated as 'heaven' and the ignorance of what a "kingdom" was referring to. But, oddly, the christian source material doesn't claim that at all. It claims that everyone who ever lived will be resurrected on the earth for 100 years, with those who didn't follow the laws given another chance to do so, and those who don't wish to follow the laws being obliterated. Whether that's odder or saner than going to outer space when you die, I will leave as an individual decision.
 
2012-05-01 12:31:47 AM  

xebeche_tzu: Do you remember the name? I would guess New Guinea.


They're called the Piraha and they live in the Amazon
 
2012-05-01 12:31:52 AM  
I got to this thread late, so I just skimmed through for pictures. All you religious nutcases who chimed in need to STFU and put on the god damned glasses!
maggotfilms.comllwproductions.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-05-01 12:33:16 AM  

SageC: I got to this thread late, so I just skimmed through for pictures. All you religious nutcases who chimed in need to STFU and put on the god damned glasses!
[maggotfilms.com image 400x399][llwproductions.files.wordpress.com image 633x453]


That tears it, I gotta go to bed.
 
2012-05-01 12:36:25 AM  

smeegle: Mr. Holmes: Humans are universally weak, stupid, hypocritical, self-interested things. But God can lift up anybody. Anyone at all, which brings us to point 4:

Excuse me, sorry to interrupt but I had this come to me while I was reading your post.
Don't you think it's rather weird to create a species then show them this tree and tell them not to eat of it's fruit, when he knows the faults of his creation? God knows they're gonna blow the first Covenant. All of the sudden it becomes a deal breaker so he boots them out of Paradise, just like he did Lucifer. Then he goes back for a second try, and his creations blow that one too. He knows they're gonna do it.
So then he sends down this usurper, this hippy peace-nick guy that hangs out with prostitutes and other hippies. Lo and behold once again, they fark it all up and the Establishment (Elders) manipulate the Law (Rome) to get rid of the usurper. But this time it's special, third times a charm and it all becomes about the blood of the hippy that turns out to be born of a virgin and the son of God.

Taken at face value, it's a little weird. But hey, I like the Hippy's message, just seems like a long twisty way to go about it.
No disrespect intended just trying to shorten the story for short attention span theatre known as Fark :)


What I've gotten from the Bible:
Old Testament: Jews, you're special. You're God's Chosen ones. Now act like it!
New Testament: God: Ok, I farked up that whole Old Testament business. Now I really can't fark it up twice, now can I? Here, kill my son and believe the crap people wrote about him and I'll keep you from going to hell. I don't know why I don't just not send you to hell, but whatevs.

I've looked a bit at the Quaran recently too. What I got from that:
I'm Muhammad, I'm either Schizo or loaded on 'shrooms. God hates everyone who doesn't believe me and will strike you non-believers. He is so cool he's even created you non-believers just to not-believe and go to hell. Guess he's really into that whole domination stuff huh? 2:10 "In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie."

I'll look into the Book of Mormon some time. I get the feel from it it goes something like this:
I'm convicted felon Joseph Smith. You might remember me from such TV series as "Buck Henderson, Union Buster" and "Troy and Company's Summertime Smile Factory". Today I'm here to tell you about Golden Plates, the 19th century's new method of prophecy. Let's meet the inventor, Dr. Nick Riviera.
 
2012-05-01 12:38:09 AM  

Cagey B: People had every right to be upset that someone professing to be something they weren't didn't have the stones to be straight with them until she was outed.

Also, I find these "conventions" and "coming out" when it comes to atheism to be really weird. It's not the "Religion of No God", it's the lack of belief. People that do this kind of stuff give the same vibe as Scientologists and addicts who move on to some obsessive substitute for whatever it was they were into.


Next up, she comes out as not that into dudes either. You just wait.
 
2012-05-01 12:43:24 AM  
i could make her cry out to god.

/thought she was cute
 
2012-05-01 12:58:46 AM  

Salt Lick Steady: It's time for the midnight lunch. Shouldn't you be sleep working?


How did I get here? Who are you people? Where did my drink go?
 
2012-05-01 12:58:50 AM  
For those of you surprised at the actions of her flock, let me clue you into something;

First for full disclosure let me say that I am an active pastor. I am also almost completely an athiest by this point. Its not that uncommon, the job will do that to you. In fact, it is indirectly probably the reason I have been promoted to a leadership position in my church. Most of the upper leadership is that way, unclouded and undistracted by the doctrinal minutiae. Not the only church that is like either. Put true believers in charge and they have no larger perspective.

With that out of the way, if her flock were actually at all truly spiritual, they would be worried about her soul and try to bring her back into the fold after losing her way. Instead she is cast out with a lot of vitriol. This is simple to understand;

The reasons for this are not complex; Many of her flock secretly don't really believe either, at least not in any more than an abstract sense. Its a social club, in fact its a social contract more or less, the tribe to which you belong, a social system or virtual village. You don't violate that contract, and you don't go against the party line of the tribe. Depending to some degree on the denomination, modern flocks tend to have very homogeneous views on everything, not just morality but politics and culture as well. They are truly a tribe. Faith is not really their common point, but its the blanket 'Flag' of that tribal system under which it is organized. Just make sure you don't point out the emperor has no clothes and you are fine.

I have a lot of people in my flock with 'faith issues', particularly couples where one believes and the other doesn't, or where both don't believe anymore but came back for the kids, or old people that came back to have a support network, or teens that go because their family does. there are a lot of athiests (or more correctly, agnostics) in the pews, for many reasons. As a social and cultural cornerstone the churches are just too useful to them, and family ties too valued to risk breaking.
 
2012-05-01 01:07:04 AM  

Salt Lick Steady: WhyteRaven74: smeegle: . Who wrote, "Women shall be silent in the church?" (Paraphrased)

That comes out of 1 Timothy which was written by who knows who. But definitely not Paul.

It was Ricky, apostle of the diaspora


And verily he proclaimed he was never going to let us down...
 
2012-05-01 01:10:57 AM  

CliChe Guevara: First for full disclosure let me say that I am an active pastor. I am also almost completely an athiest by this point


Yes, religion has traditionally attracted the morally bankrupt, hypocrites, and liars. Also, you misspelled atheist.
 
2012-05-01 01:31:37 AM  

o4tuna: If faith without works is dead, what is works without faith?


Early on in my marriage, my wife, who is Christian, and I once had a conversation where she said something along the lines of "well, sure you can live your life through your works". I stopped her right there and told her that I don't acknowledge terms like "works". That is religious terminology, and is mostly nonsensical to me. Or, as I like to put it, "utter bullshiat". Still married after 18 years and doing fine.
 
2012-05-01 01:31:50 AM  

untaken_name: CliChe Guevara: First for full disclosure let me say that I am an active pastor. I am also almost completely an athiest by this point

Yes, religion has traditionally attracted the morally bankrupt, hypocrites, and liars. Also, you misspelled atheist.


ah, so I did. silly me for not proofreading.

so, I am at a loss to decide which one of those three attributes you think apply to myself, as someone who started out and found they were steadily losing faith along the way.
most likely the hypocrite part, as i struggle with where that line lies that myself. i have stopped giving spiritual guidance, as i could not in good conscience do that anymore, and now fill a strictly organizational and service position working specifically with charity work, although i still maintain my ordination. i have not brought myself to leave as i started here to do some good, and i still am actually accomplishing quite a bit of it using this entities resources, regardless of my beliefs. i have a position in which it is not necessary to do this job. still helping others though, and i think it would be selfish to quit for purely personal reasons as i would not be doing anything to help others at that point. hence why i live with what is very clearly some hypocrisy.
i would assume you do not direct the other two epithets at me personally, although you may be just a troll and/or a hateful cheerleader for your own tribal group (nonbelievers do it too), in which case you won by getting a response, or you won't read anything i say save to mock it. as you will.
i did write this in the hope you would discuss this a bit with me, however slim a hope that is.
 
2012-05-01 01:34:16 AM  

o4tuna: If faith without works is dead, what is works without faith?


lol. that is a question i ask myself every day i get up and go to work.
 
2012-05-01 01:37:17 AM  

GoSurfing: Can you smoke crack in heaven? If that's bliss to you, you should be able to. But you can't check out once you get there. You're stuck, whether you like it or not.


How I think of it: Yes and no. I think it would probably be an entirely different type of existence, probably energy-based. In heaven we have full understanding of everything that has ever happened as a conciousness, but no corresponding physical form. However, the entire course of the existence of the universe would be open to you, so you "mentally" can be smoking crack, but still with full knowledge that that is a sorta skewed form of bliss, diminishing the experience somewhat.

There's no checking out, until there is. Time had no meaning before the big bang, and thus was effectively inifite, except that it ended. Heaven could work similarly.
 
2012-05-01 01:45:41 AM  

CliChe Guevara: so, I am at a loss to decide which one of those three attributes you think apply to myself, as someone who started out and found they were steadily losing faith along the way.


Well, you're a pastor who doesn't believe in what he preaches - that should just about cover all three. An honest man would find another job. A morally upstanding man would find another job. You decide which attributes apply to you.

CliChe Guevara: i have stopped giving spiritual guidance, as i could not in good conscience do that anymore, and now fill a strictly organizational and service position working specifically with charity work, although i still maintain my ordination


See above.

CliChe Guevara: i have not brought myself to leave as i started here to do some good, and i still am actually accomplishing quite a bit of it using this entities resources, regardless of my beliefs.


Are you implying that there are no non-faith-based charities? Or just that you couldn't do any good at one of them? Also, upon what is your definition of "doing good" based?

CliChe Guevara: still helping others though, and i think it would be selfish to quit for purely personal reasons as i would not be doing anything to help others at that point.


Again, is this because there are no secular charities, or because you wouldn't be able to "do good" for one of them?

CliChe Guevara: i would assume you do not direct the other two epithets at me personally, although you may be just a troll and/or a hateful cheerleader for your own tribal group (nonbelievers do it too), in which case you won by getting a response, or you won't read anything i say save to mock it. as you will.


I simply used the words as they are defined in the dictionary. If you believe that implies something negative about yourself, you may wish to look up the dictionary definitions and determine from where your sense of persecution is coming. I would suggest it is from your conscience, except that I don't believe in those. Just conditioned response, programmed into you by your upbringing.

CliChe Guevara: i did write this in the hope you would discuss this a bit with me, however slim a hope that is.


Well, here you go.
 
2012-05-01 01:53:04 AM  

CliChe Guevara: untaken_name: CliChe Guevara: First for full disclosure let me say that I am an active pastor. I am also almost completely an athiest by this point

Yes, religion has traditionally attracted the morally bankrupt, hypocrites, and liars. Also, you misspelled atheist.

ah, so I did. silly me for not proofreading.

so, I am at a loss to decide which one of those three attributes you think apply to myself, as someone who started out and found they were steadily losing faith along the way.
most likely the hypocrite part, as i struggle with where that line lies that myself. i have stopped giving spiritual guidance, as i could not in good conscience do that anymore, and now fill a strictly organizational and service position working specifically with charity work, although i still maintain my ordination. i have not brought myself to leave as i started here to do some good, and i still am actually accomplishing quite a bit of it using this entities resources, regardless of my beliefs. i have a position in which it is not necessary to do this job. still helping others though, and i think it would be selfish to quit for purely personal reasons as i would not be doing anything to help others at that point. hence why i live with what is very clearly some hypocrisy.
i would assume you do not direct the other two epithets at me personally, although you may be just a troll and/or a hateful cheerleader for your own tribal group (nonbelievers do it too), in which case you won by getting a response, or you won't read anything i say save to mock it. as you will.
i did write this in the hope you would discuss this a bit with me, however slim a hope that is.


Then why not find a secular position that allows you to do the same good work without having to pretend you have faith? I know it might be hard to find a perfect fit but it's gotta be better than living a lie. Even if you are not directly involved in spiritual work you are still living that lie because you are allowing others to assume from your position in the church that you support the church's teachings.

I fully realize that it may take some time to find a position outside the cchurch but I would think that after you do you would be much happier and less conflicted about your place in the world.
 
2012-05-01 01:57:25 AM  

chuggernaught: A minister turned atheist does not deserve ridicule and spite. They deserve love and compassion.

/I mean, were you people even paying attention in church!


wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com

/seems appropriate
//I like christianity
///I do not like Christian Culture...they don't seem to actually practice christianity.
 
2012-05-01 02:06:40 AM  
Kill the heretic?
 
2012-05-01 02:10:57 AM  

LovingTeacher: I fully realize that it may take some time to find a position outside the cchurch but I would think that after you do you would be much happier and less conflicted about your place in the world.


i would very much agree. one of the reasons i am specifically doing liaison work with outside charities is to hopefully jump ship to one eventually. it would seem the perfect option. not an option right now, but as i look i have to consider the present and whether or not that much less good work would be done due to the lack of my presence, the lack of that presence coming due simply to selfish reasons.

at that point, can one even begin to consider it an even remotely moral choice to quit until there is an alternative, when to distill it down, the result would be unequivocally that i would make others suffer simply to make myself feel more comfortable? sticky question. in the meantime, i think i can live with some hypocrisy, working, and keeping my mouth shut.

untaken_name can certainly argue the morality of the point, or whether one can even make a moral yet hypocritical decision. i may or may not disagree with him, as i have not even yet decided, but there is the rationale for my choice currently.
 
2012-05-01 02:13:23 AM  

Spaz-master: Because an internal viewpoint requires community consensus, right?
Freaking atheist are exactly the same crap they despise.
If your confidence in your own beliefs on faith are so weak that you need a community support group, then you have no confidence at all.

[www.ffxivcore.com image 411x377]


Which is why you didn't come here to post this on Fark.

I get it!
 
2012-05-01 02:24:13 AM  

Cheesus: skinnycatullus: Cagey B: Also, I find these "conventions" and "coming out" when it comes to atheism to be really weird

I'd never go to a convention, but "coming out" makes sense because it is often a very difficult step to take. If I were gay, I'd much rather tell my parents that than that I am an atheist. For lots of us, there is overwhelming pressure from family regarding religion. For me, it isn't a question of whether they would shun me (they wouldn't), but it would absolutely destroy them emotionally to know I don't believe anymore.

My family was never too big of a deal. My grandfather supported whatever decision I made with my life, and my grandmother thought it was just a phase. It's the community that got me. They flat out turn their backs on you like you're the most despicable thing to ever grace their presence. Not sure what I would've done without a few close friends and the internet. I don't know that I would've gone to a convention without those things, but I can't say for sure.


This is human nature and hardly is unique to religion. Politics, sports, you name it. People belong to groups and it's psychologically very uncomfortable to have someone leave your group. Any common belief you may have is now has a visible contrary view. It represents disunity and as such intrinsically is a threat to the group view.

I come on it from the opposite end -- secular public school in Northern California -- I remember when one of my high-school social peers starting praying fervently before her meal. Totally wigged me out and gave me a negative impression of her. Before she was an assumed part of the group culture and now she was a stranger. I don't think I ever talked to her again.
 
2012-05-01 03:03:19 AM  
I'm a Secular Humanist too. Welcome to the club of the informed, educated, compassionate and clear of mind.
Liberating isn't it - when you aren't governed by dogma and fiction.
 
2012-05-01 03:13:41 AM  
You have a brain.
It's driven to find meaning.
Even when meaning doesn't necessarily exist.
Like that pattern in burnt toast.
Or those wood rings in that log that got sawed in half.
Or those clouds in the sky.
Or the entirety of existence.
None of these necessarily have to have meaning.
Nor did anyone create them to look that way, they just happened to turn out that way.

There are people around you.
Some are jerks.
Some are nice.
Some are indifferent.
How the relationships between people exist has a lot to do with how each chooses to treat the other.

You have a life.
It began at some point.
It will end at some point.
There is no determined length until the end occurs.
You can imagine what happened before you were born.
You can imagine what will happen after you die.
Maybe you're right on one or the other.
But you can't know for sure.
In the mean time your life, the people around you, and your brain are waiting for you.

What do you want to do with each of those?


Lastly Mr. Shaw has something to say.
Christianity might be a good thing if anyone ever tried it
 
2012-05-01 03:17:22 AM  

CliChe Guevara: at that point, can one even begin to consider it an even remotely moral choice to quit until there is an alternative, when to distill it down, the result would be unequivocally that i would make others suffer simply to make myself feel more comfortable? sticky question. in the meantime, i think i can live with some hypocrisy, working, and keeping my mouth shut.


You are rationalizing here. You are not so important to your job that anyone would notice in any material way if you just quit. No one is going to be sitting around saying, "Well, gee, I *was* going to go to Charity X for help, but since CliChe Guevara isn't working there anymore, forget that!" You are staying at your job and lying to those around you for your own selfish gain and benefit. That is the same reason that 99.9% of humanity goes to work - we just don't all lie about who we are and what we believe. Also, I already knew you could live with being a hypocrite - you're morally bankrupt. The joke is that you are reacting to the term "moral" and even using it yourself, yet you claim to be an atheist. I'm not sure you have a very clear idea of what you believe or why. From where does morality originate?
 
2012-05-01 03:30:54 AM  

untaken_name: CliChe Guevara: at that point, can one even begin to consider it an even remotely moral choice to quit until there is an alternative, when to distill it down, the result would be unequivocally that i would make others suffer simply to make myself feel more comfortable? sticky question. in the meantime, i think i can live with some hypocrisy, working, and keeping my mouth shut.

You are rationalizing here. You are not so important to your job that anyone would notice in any material way if you just quit. No one is going to be sitting around saying, "Well, gee, I *was* going to go to Charity X for help, but since CliChe Guevara isn't working there anymore, forget that!" You are staying at your job and lying to those around you for your own selfish gain and benefit. That is the same reason that 99.9% of humanity goes to work - we just don't all lie about who we are and what we believe. Also, I already knew you could live with being a hypocrite - you're morally bankrupt. The joke is that you are reacting to the term "moral" and even using it yourself, yet you claim to be an atheist. I'm not sure you have a very clear idea of what you believe or why. From where does morality originate?


Bio:
For further details, consult your local FBI
wanted poster.
/just say'in
 
2012-05-01 03:31:17 AM  
Consider this if God is supposed to be absolute, and undeniable, and always right, immortal, always existed, always will existed and is the reason that everything exists, and is the only way to salvation, the light of the heavens, and the penultimate "king"

God seems to be the very fabric of the universe, that is the very universe itself, in that regard, God's laws are immutable, but also unknowable to men who do not seek to know God better, and in that regard, God must be explored and discovered, it's properties explained, his virtues and limitations known by the mind that seeks the truth.

In this regard, religion is the babbling of those who wish to imagine a pretty and artistic anthropomorphism.

And science is the only way to really know God.

As for Jesus, eh, he had some good ideas, as long as you ignore the fact that the actual original person might have had their life story Frankensteined together from various different pagan mythologies.
 
2012-05-01 03:34:30 AM  

Weaver95: hiding knowledge is wrong..as is deliberately distorting knowledge or information.


Where do you stand on hiding Jews from Nazis? When they ask, do you have to give them up? Not snarky, curious.
 
2012-05-01 03:37:37 AM  
meadatron
`
So - it's Bullshiat?
 
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