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(Minneapolis Star Tribune)   To E15 or not E15, that is the question   (startribune.com) divider line 77
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5346 clicks; posted to Business » on 30 Apr 2012 at 3:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-30 11:37:30 AM
Hey, it's good for the corn industry, reduces gas mileage, and drives up world prices for food, so it must be good! Let's subsidize it some more!
 
2012-04-30 11:38:52 AM
The higher the ethanol level, the more you're getting ripped off on your mileage AND your tax dollars.
 
2012-04-30 11:49:34 AM
In Congress, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., is pushing a bill to halt introduction of E15 and conduct more research. "I think this is outrageous," he said. "The government is telling consumers to use a product that the manufacturer of their car says will ... void the warranty."

E15, the blend of 15 percent alcohol and 85 percent gasoline, has undergone considerable testing -- enough for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to grant a "waiver" allowing its use in newer cars and light trucks.


Granting waiver allowing companies to sell something = government telling consumers to use a product.
Passing law that halts the introduction of a product = lassie-fair capitalism.

Got it.
 
2012-04-30 12:01:42 PM
If your vehicle doesn't say "flex fuel" I think you'd pretty much be screwed.
 
2012-04-30 12:12:25 PM
I already know where to go to get real gas, and I hope they continue to be that way.

/and I'm not talking Taco Hell
 
2012-04-30 12:13:42 PM
Why is it that when Big Oil and Big Ag fight, they don't destroy each other but instead f*ck the innocent bystanders?
 
2012-04-30 12:16:02 PM
E-15?

EINGO!
 
2012-04-30 12:20:48 PM

Speaker2Animals: Why is it that when Big Oil and Big Ag fight, they don't destroy each other but instead f*ck the innocent bystanders?


Why fight when they can fool us into thinking a refined corn/oil hybrid is America-friendly green technology?
 
2012-04-30 12:22:28 PM

Speaker2Animals: Why is it that when Big Oil and Big Ag fight, they don't destroy each other but instead f*ck the innocent bystanders?


That's the free market. Do you have a problem with the free market?
 
2012-04-30 12:31:29 PM
E-15?

You sunk my battleship!
 
2012-04-30 12:46:43 PM

junkmetal: I already know where to go to get real gas, and I hope they continue to be that way.

/and I'm not talking Taco Hell


I have to get mine delivered. Where do you find yours?
 
2012-04-30 01:12:50 PM
Thanks for screwing it up, subby. To E15, or not to E15, ya dumbass.
 
2012-04-30 01:36:51 PM

jaylectricity: Thanks for screwing it up, subby. To E15, or not to E15, ya dumbass.


Whether 'tis nobler in the gas tank to suffer the pings and corn rows of outrageous subsidies, or to take diesel against a sea of BP's troubles, and by opposing end them...
 
2012-04-30 02:03:19 PM
If this is anything like the Pen 15 Club, I'm not interested.
 
2012-04-30 02:11:10 PM

Marcus Aurelius: junkmetal: I already know where to go to get real gas, and I hope they continue to be that way.

/and I'm not talking Taco Hell

I have to get mine delivered. Where do you find yours?


There's a Shell station here that still uses ethanol free gas and two small convenience stores that are close, but I'm unsure of their affiliation, I just know it's non ethanol..
 
2012-04-30 02:58:37 PM

junkmetal: Marcus Aurelius: junkmetal: I already know where to go to get real gas, and I hope they continue to be that way.

/and I'm not talking Taco Hell

I have to get mine delivered. Where do you find yours?

There's a Shell station here that still uses ethanol free gas and two small convenience stores that are close, but I'm unsure of their affiliation, I just know it's non ethanol..


http://pure-gas.org/
 
2012-04-30 03:13:07 PM
You Minnesotans can ask your neighbors to the east how they like it.

/And the answer is not a whole hell of a lot.
 
2012-04-30 03:16:08 PM
I just wish they'd use sugarcane or sugarbeets for the biomass
 
2012-04-30 03:18:45 PM
Fuel lines rotting underhood
Cars dying on the road.
Monsanto is wishing you
Happy load.
 
2012-04-30 03:19:51 PM

loonatic112358: I just wish they'd use sugarcane or sugarbeets for the biomass


and/or Kudzu.

Would make sense to use invasive plants as well.
Economize the cleaning of rivers, bays, ponds, lakes.
 
2012-04-30 03:21:27 PM
The need to make ethanol from zebra mussels.
 
2012-04-30 03:26:31 PM

impaler: In Congress, Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., is pushing a bill to halt introduction of E15 and conduct more research. "I think this is outrageous," he said. "The government is telling consumers to use a product that the manufacturer of their car says will ... void the warranty."

E15, the blend of 15 percent alcohol and 85 percent gasoline, has undergone considerable testing -- enough for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to grant a "waiver" allowing its use in newer cars and light trucks.

Granting waiver allowing companies to sell something = government telling consumers to use a product.
Passing law that halts the introduction of a product = lassie-fair capitalism.

Got it.


loonatic112358: I just wish they'd use sugarcane or sugarbeets for the biomass


Sugar beets pretty much rape the soil they are grown in, plus, they kill people.

//Back home, at least once a year someone seemed to die or be seriously injured by a sugar beet falling off of an overloaded truck.
 
2012-04-30 03:27:07 PM
dunno why I got two quotes there.
 
2012-04-30 03:27:51 PM
You guys are getting all excited for nothing. Blend my own E40-50 in wife's non flex fuel Malibu with zero problems. Run it in the lawn mower, too.

I have never, ever, has a problem that could be traced back to ethanol.
 
2012-04-30 03:30:29 PM

BHShaman: and/or Kudzu.Would make sense to use invasive plants as well.Economize the cleaning of rivers, bays, ponds, lakes.


how well does kudzu biomass convert to alcohol?

i know there's no issue getting it grow

meat0918: sugargar beets pretty much rape the soil they are grown in, plus, they kill people.//Back home, at least once a year someone seemed to die or be seriously injured by a sugar beet falling off of an overloaded truck.


I wasn't aware of how they grew, I just knew they'd probably ferment into alcohol better then corn. Besides we could grow them in places that are already wastelands, like pennsyltucky or detroit

don't stand behind the truck
 
2012-04-30 03:31:28 PM
There are a couple stations around here that sell gas w/o ethanol for the same price as with ethonal. Easy decision here and yes, I do get better mileage w/o ethanol.
 
2012-04-30 03:35:27 PM

impaler: The need to make ethanol from zebra mussels.



Is that even possible?
 
2012-04-30 03:37:19 PM
I made 7% ethanol in my kitchen over the weekend. The secret ingrediant was honey. And love.

So what is the issue here? Does it damage seals/hoses/whatever? Does it throw off emissions hardware?
 
2012-04-30 03:37:52 PM
I just shove a bottle of cheap vodka in my tank. It's cheaper and almost emissions.
 
2012-04-30 03:42:52 PM

Pick: You guys are getting all excited for nothing. Blend my own E40-50 in wife's non flex fuel Malibu with zero problems. Run it in the lawn mower, too.

I have never, ever, has a problem that could be traced back to ethanol.


Fuel rails, and some of the hoses/seals in an engine not specced for E85 can be destroyed by higher ethanol fuels. Also there can be problems with your car's tune coping with E85 (check engine comes on, car stumbles, etc). If you really want do it yourself ethanol fun, look at getting an used Subaru and modding it, there is a massive community around that. Given sufficient time the E40 will do damage.

Also just because the car doesn't display any errors doesn't mean the computer isn't logging weirdness with the fuel and compensating for it. You go in for warranty work and the dealer will inform you the warranty is void because of the errors the vehicle logged and the fact the dealer is pretty sure you ran E85 in the vehicle.

/auto engineer
 
2012-04-30 03:50:27 PM

NewWorldDan:
So what is the issue here? Does it damage seals/hoses/whatever? Does it throw off emissions hardware?


Yes and yes.

Ethanol in gasoline attracts water, and water+metal in cars not designed for it = rust

And ethanol doesn't give you the same MPG as gasoline does, and depending on the model car, it can throw check engine lights. In theory however, this could be fixed by a software download, but who is going to go to the dealer to get a software download on a vehicle out of warranty?

The E15 issue is out there because of the older cars and the fact that the UL has not approved most fuel dispensers for above E10. And you have the liability for it. Gas station owners have been lobbying for a "Stand Your Ground" no-liability law for them. Meaning that if someone ignores the sign, puts E15 in their car, and ruins it, they can't sue the gas station. Then if they actually do file a lawsuit, they have to pay legal fees of the gas station.
 
2012-04-30 04:02:24 PM
Let me see what my gas cap says....hrm, it is solid black.

I'm already not using the E10, even though Honda guesses my old clunker can still take it.
 
2012-04-30 04:07:40 PM

impaler: The need to make ethanol from zebra mussels.


Maybe biodiesel. The problem is the efficiency of harvesting them.
 
2012-04-30 04:11:06 PM

wildcardjack: impaler: The need to make ethanol from zebra mussels.

Maybe biodiesel. The problem is the efficiency of harvesting them.


Start with Asian carp and work our way up to Zebra mussels.
 
2012-04-30 04:14:49 PM

Galloping Galoshes: Hey, it's good for the corn industry, reduces gas mileage, and drives up world prices for food, so it must be good! Let's subsidize it some more!


And done in 1.
 
2012-04-30 04:15:42 PM

ha-ha-guy: wildcardjack: impaler: The need to make ethanol from zebra mussels.

Maybe biodiesel. The problem is the efficiency of harvesting them.

Start with Asian carp and work our way up to Zebra mussels.


Could any under-utilized industrial livestock feeding operations manure waste be used for biodiesel as well?

There is a lot of shiat just sort of lying around on many farms.
 
2012-04-30 04:18:56 PM
Good Lord, some of you morons do not understand that it is 2012, not 1955. Anything approaching being a modern car that can burn regular gas can burn E15 with no problems.

Or do you really think fuel line manufacturers etc never imagined that there might be some ethanol in gasoline? It's been added by law in some places since the 1980's.
 
2012-04-30 04:33:59 PM

ghare: Or do you really think fuel line manufacturers etc never imagined that there might be some ethanol in gasoline?


Do I really think that Ford or whoever (even cuddly Toyota/Honda/Subie) would welch on warranty work if they could even remotely trace it back to 'not quite approved for this vehicle' fuel? Yes, sadly. Out of warranty, yeah, I'm with you.
 
2012-04-30 04:34:01 PM
My DIESEL VW laughs at these E15 shenanigans.
 
2012-04-30 04:37:13 PM

Ken VeryBigLiar: You Minnesotans can ask your neighbors to the east how they like it.

/And the answer is not a whole hell of a lot.


I get out to Johnson Creek whenever I can just to put actual gas in my car - the Shell out there has non-gasohol on the premium pump. Same when I'm driving to Indy, there's a Phillips 66 near West Lafayette.

There used to be a BP near Ixonia that was 100% gas on all pumps (they even had the "we've got good ol' gas" sign out) but they went E-10 a few years back. No idea why, they had constant traffic before, now they're just a gas station on a sleepy freeway exit.

Sure my car takes E10 with no problems but the difference with the straight gas can be dramatic.
 
2012-04-30 04:37:35 PM

lucksi: Let me see what my gas cap says....hrm, it is solid black.

I'm already not using the E10, even though Honda guesses my old clunker can still take it.


I'm pretty sure that's why your cluncker cam take that poison.
 
2012-04-30 04:38:56 PM
The next thing we know, they'll be using corn as kitty litter-

-oh wait...
 
2012-04-30 04:44:35 PM
Ethanol = crap.
E10 - garbage
E15 - total crap
E20 - obammy!!!! Total f**king garbage.
 
2012-04-30 04:48:06 PM
They are testing this in my area. I know it makes my brand new weedwhacker run like shiat (50:1 mix).
 
2012-04-30 05:09:15 PM

Pick: You guys are getting all excited for nothing. Blend my own E40-50 in wife's non flex fuel Malibu with zero problems. Run it in the lawn mower, too.

I have never, ever, has a problem that could be traced back to ethanol.


Ethanol always has some water in it that cannot be removed during distillation. It also has a lower energy density than regular gasoline, so if you pay the same for ethanol as you do gas, you're getting ripped off. My car's economy is 2 MPG better with 100% gasoline. And none of my two stroke equipment will run on E10. I run them on racing fuel (aviation fuel works even better).
 
2012-04-30 05:11:16 PM

impaler: The need to make ethanol from zebra mussels.


and Asian Carp.
 
2012-04-30 05:17:51 PM

taliesinwi: Ken VeryBigLiar: You Minnesotans can ask your neighbors to the east how they like it.

/And the answer is not a whole hell of a lot.

I get out to Johnson Creek whenever I can just to put actual gas in my car - the Shell out there has non-gasohol on the premium pump. Same when I'm driving to Indy, there's a Phillips 66 near West Lafayette.

There used to be a BP near Ixonia that was 100% gas on all pumps (they even had the "we've got good ol' gas" sign out) but they went E-10 a few years back. No idea why, they had constant traffic before, now they're just a gas station on a sleepy freeway exit.

Sure my car takes E10 with no problems but the difference with the straight gas can be dramatic.


Yeah, living in reformulated country does suck. It was especially bad when I still drove the old beastly '92 F150 with a 5L in it. I drive something much newer now but on older engines like that it could really drain them. Even out by my parents in Juneau County there's not much in the way of stations that don't at least have E10.
 
2012-04-30 05:22:26 PM

Devolving_Spud: My DIESEL VW laughs at these E15 shenanigans.


Newer VWs have a similar issue regarding biodiesel. I can't remember if the limit is 5% or 10%, but apparently higher percentages can mess up some of the emission-control stuff.
 
2012-04-30 05:32:16 PM
Yup, my diesel VW said no more than 2 or 5% bio... and in PA it's mandated 10% I think increasing to 15-20% in the next few years. I love how lobbyists can throw cash around and get laws passed that will break peoples possessions. Think you can sue the state when their fuel wrecks your engine?
 
2012-04-30 06:02:39 PM
I think I mistakenly filled up with E-85 in a 2000 Blazer once in far western Nebraska. I barely made it to DIA because of the reduced fuel mileage.
 
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