sethstorm: Weaver95: And in this case, rather stupid. seriously - how the in the hell does the GOP think they're gonna convince a bunch of young voters to support the Republicans 10 years down the road? NONE of the Republican's policy positions favor anything to voters under the age of 65.

The only position that the GOP is running on, is: "elect us or businesses won't hire anybody, even if the economy crashes & burns". That is, elect them or else businesses are encouraged to "wait it out" or "go on strike" until their candidate gets in.

No jobs are actually created on net since businesses will keep moving the goalpost out of reach. The only thing that accelerates is the *departure* of jobs faster than people can find new ones.

The best is when states or even cities fight over businesses. Newsflash, if they didn't already pick Mexico or China, they'll be in the united states. There is, at that point, no reason to blow my tax money on handouts to private businesses.

Lillith: What do you mean "Instead" I am fairly sure that they do pay SS and will get it in time.

Nope. in many places teachers unions have 'negotiated away' the right to SS and Medicare, in favor of better pension and health care programs.

Oh, do you know why the Post office is 'so broke' ? Because it's paying its pension obligations up front and in full. Nobody does that. You know why they're doing that ? because congress made them.

/it sounds to me like they need to limit pension payouts to persons age 65 and over.

Why am I supposed to be outraged when someone works for 20 years at a public service job and retires on his pension? Whether it's a garbage man or a cop, they do their jobs, pay into their pension fund for the required time, and they get it in full when they leave their job.

Pension funds are NOT public money. It's money taken from the employee's paycheck and matched by the union from union dues, invested by the union, and then paid back when the employee retires. It's the employee's OWN MONEY that he didn't get paid during his employment. It's not YOUR MONEY, any more than your 401(k) is somehow everyone's money.

So STFU.

Oh dear doG, it is election season and the ____Democrats___ hold the "highest" office.

/You farkers have become those which you hate

Branch Dravidian:

Yep.

your volokh sucks

Klippoklondike: Giltric: NJ teachers and NY cops pay into both ss and pension funds and get to collect both.


If you pay in you should get it.

Agreed. And what's wrong with being a garbage man? I realize it's not glamorous but occupations of all kinds deserve respect.

As a restaurant owner all I can say is this! My staff works hard to make your food. I wish we could pay better and offer affordable health insurance but since we are just lowly service industry workers it just ain't possible.

Mildot: [static.seekingalpha.com image 640x466]

"Source: Author's calculations"

Lemme guess. The author in question is Mildot itself, and the calculations were pulled out of its ass.

Gulper Eel: So they can work their way up from starting at 20 grand a year to 60 grand after 20-odd years...and if this was how it stayed and they wrapped up at 70 grand a year we wouldn't have a problem. But the piles of OT mean they make 120-150 grand their last three years, and their pension will wind up being greater than anything they made in most of their working life.

And people are getting pensions at 37 for collecting garbage? I'd love to see a city plan that allows that.

Ed Willy: Are we sure of that? Garbage men do face occupation hazards of the shiat they pick up, they drive the same streets as the cops and there trucks and dumping as the landfill exposes many mechanical hazards. An comparison of the injury/death would be interesting.I wouldn't be surprised if non-union private industry garbage collectors faced a greater hazard than the average union police officer.

Some quick research finds a workplace-related death rate for garbagemen of 22 per 100,000. For police the rate is 18.5 per 100,000. So it appears to be slightly more dangerous to be a garbageman than a cop.

Interestingly, in looking these numbers up, I also discovered that the homicide rate (that is the rate at which people die at the hands of another person who act with the intention to kill them) for police is 4.9 per 100,000 and 5 per 100,000 for the general population. Which means that if you're a cop you're slightly less likely to be murdered.

Also: Most garbagemen who die on the job are run over by their own trucks.

skepticultist: Ed Willy: Are we sure of that? Garbage men do face occupation hazards of the shiat they pick up, they drive the same streets as the cops and there trucks and dumping as the landfill exposes many mechanical hazards. An comparison of the injury/death would be interesting.I wouldn't be surprised if non-union private industry garbage collectors faced a greater hazard than the average union police officer.

Some quick research finds a workplace-related death rate for garbagemen of 22 per 100,000. For police the rate is 18.5 per 100,000. So it appears to be slightly more dangerous to be a garbageman than a cop.

Interestingly, in looking these numbers up, I also discovered that the homicide rate (that is the rate at which people die at the hands of another person who act with the intention to kill them) for police is 4.9 per 100,000 and 5 per 100,000 for the general population. Which means that if you're a cop you're slightly less likely to be murdered.

Also: Most garbagemen who die on the job are run over by their own trucks.

Makes sense. Police are armed and often take precautions with back up. Plus, few robbers will bust into a police station in a hold up,.

Your state taxes are going up (way up) because the guy who dropped out of high school at 17 to work on a garbage truck got to retire at 37 with pay and benefits for life the people managing your state made ridiculous promises they couldn't possibly keep to attract workers. Move along, citizen.

I can never understand how people blame the workers for things like this. Blame the people who made the deals. If management made unsustainable deals it's management's farking fault. When a company I worked at pushed out a bonus plan that had counterproductive incentives, I didn't blame the people who took full advantage of the plan to maximize their own income to the determent of the company, I blamed the dumb ass who pushed the plan in the first place.

rnld: Gulper Eel: So they can work their way up from starting at 20 grand a year to 60 grand after 20-odd years...and if this was how it stayed and they wrapped up at 70 grand a year we wouldn't have a problem. But the piles of OT mean they make 120-150 grand their last three years, and their pension will wind up being greater than anything they made in most of their working life.

And people are getting pensions at 37 for collecting garbage? I'd love to see a city plan that allows that.

You get a pension on most pension plans after you've paid into it for 20 years. If the guy is 37 and started at 17, why does he need to wait for 30 more years to see his pension money? Because YOU seem to think it's somehow "unfair" he worked his ass off for 20 years and wants his money while he's still young enough to use it to start another career, or put his kids through school without it destroying his retirement, or something else fun?

My best friend the CO is getting ready to retire on a full pension at age 53 after 20 years in the Nevada Dept of Corrections. You going to make him wait another 15 years because you think 53 is too young to retire under your system of fairness?

Ed Willy: skepticultist: Ed Willy: Are we sure of that? Garbage men do face occupation hazards of the shiat they pick up, they drive the same streets as the cops and there trucks and dumping as the landfill exposes many mechanical hazards. An comparison of the injury/death would be interesting.I wouldn't be surprised if non-union private industry garbage collectors faced a greater hazard than the average union police officer.

Some quick research finds a workplace-related death rate for garbagemen of 22 per 100,000. For police the rate is 18.5 per 100,000. So it appears to be slightly more dangerous to be a garbageman than a cop.

Interestingly, in looking these numbers up, I also discovered that the homicide rate (that is the rate at which people die at the hands of another person who act with the intention to kill them) for police is 4.9 per 100,000 and 5 per 100,000 for the general population. Which means that if you're a cop you're slightly less likely to be murdered.

Also: Most garbagemen who die on the job are run over by their own trucks.

Makes sense. Police are armed and often take precautions with back up. Plus, few robbers will bust into a police station in a hold up,.

I'm a little surprised they manage to run each other over (the garbagemen). Driving all the time is inherently dangerous, but, and correct my assumptions if I'm wrong, a slow moving portable tank like a dump truck shouldn't be too bad. Simple following rules of making sure the rider gives the go ahead before taking off should cover any running each other over....

Smackledorfer: Ed Willy: skepticultist: Ed Willy: Are we sure of that? Garbage men do face occupation hazards of the shiat they pick up, they drive the same streets as the cops and there trucks and dumping as the landfill exposes many mechanical hazards. An comparison of the injury/death would be interesting.I wouldn't be surprised if non-union private industry garbage collectors faced a greater hazard than the average union police officer.

Some quick research finds a workplace-related death rate for garbagemen of 22 per 100,000. For police the rate is 18.5 per 100,000. So it appears to be slightly more dangerous to be a garbageman than a cop.

Interestingly, in looking these numbers up, I also discovered that the homicide rate (that is the rate at which people die at the hands of another person who act with the intention to kill them) for police is 4.9 per 100,000 and 5 per 100,000 for the general population. Which means that if you're a cop you're slightly less likely to be murdered.

Also: Most garbagemen who die on the job are run over by their own trucks.

Makes sense. Police are armed and often take precautions with back up. Plus, few robbers will bust into a police station in a hold up,.

I'm a little surprised they manage to run each other over (the garbagemen). Driving all the time is inherently dangerous, but, and correct my assumptions if I'm wrong, a slow moving portable tank like a dump truck shouldn't be too bad. Simple following rules of making sure the rider gives the go ahead before taking off should cover any running each other over....

I wonder what the comparison would be between union and non-union. Union shops put a lot of emphasis on safety training. Private firms sometimes push too much work onto their crews, and in order to keep up the guys are forced to skip safety steps in order to collect enough trash.

namatad: except that the GOVERNMENT is us ....

Yes, it is. However, the person working for the pension is ONE PERSON. Even with a union behind them they still don't control the government, and if they did they'd protect their pension from any of the borrowing and dipping, wouldn't they? So you can't really pin the blame of underfunded pensions back on the people working for the pensions in this case, because if they had the ability to take the blame, they never would have put themselves in a position where they would have to.

I'm not saying an unopposed union wouldn't rob the state blind (well, I'd hope they'd hold back a little given this hypothetical system where they are unopposed), but that they would keep their own goose healthy for the laying of more eggs.

Ed Willy: I wonder what the comparison would be between union and non-union. Union shops put a lot of emphasis on safety training. Private firms sometimes push too much work onto their crews, and in order to keep up the guys are forced to skip safety steps in order to collect enough trash.

I wonder what it would be like without OSHA.

Gyrfalcon: If the guy is 37 and started at 17, why does he need to wait for 30 more years to see his pension money?

Because Pensions start at a very reduced rate when you are younger and nobody here has shown that there is any city or state that a pension can start at 37.

rnld: Gyrfalcon: If the guy is 37 and started at 17, why does he need to wait for 30 more years to see his pension money?

Because Pensions start at a very reduced rate when you are younger and nobody here has shown that there is any city or state that a pension can start at 37.

Most pension plans I know of allow you to withdraw them, albeit at substantial penalty, after 20 years, regardless of the age of the owner. It's the DURATION OF THE PENSION, not the AGE OF THE EMPLOYEE that usually controls.

MithrandirBooga: Mildot: Thank You Unions!

[nygoe.files.wordpress.com image 580x508]

Every time I see your name, my mind reads it as "Midiot". It's amazingly fitting, don't you think?

I always read it as "microdot".

/Don't take the blue acid.

rnld: Gyrfalcon: If the guy is 37 and started at 17, why does he need to wait for 30 more years to see his pension money?

Because Pensions start at a very reduced rate when you are younger and nobody here has shown that there is any city or state that a pension can start at 37.

I doubt any current plans allow you to retire at age 37. All the states have tightened up, but only on new hires. I think you must go back to the plan policies of 20 years ago(pre-internet days). Don't forget that some states, like Texas, will include your military service when calculating your years of service. Gov Rick Perry just retired last year with his 20 years of service (including military time).

Police and Firefighter Pension Plans
Journal article by Michael Bucci; Monthly Labor Review, Vol. 115, 1992

Police and firefighter pension plans.

by Michael Bucci

Police and firefighters typically may retire with full pension benefits at a younger age and with less service than other private or public sector employees. In 1990, 15 percent of full-time police and firefighters covered by defined benefit pension plans were able to retire and receive full benefits after completion of 20 years of service regardless of age.(1) This compares with 1 percent or fewer of full-time regular government employees(2) and full-time private industry employees.

Link

Gyrfalcon: Most pension plans I know of allow you to withdraw them, albeit at substantial penalty, after 20 years, regardless of the age of the owner. It's the DURATION OF THE PENSION, not the AGE OF THE EMPLOYEE that usually controls.

Or a combination of both

From the San Francisco Miscellaneous plan

At least age 50 with 20 years of service credit or at least age 60 with 10 years of service credit

HempHead: (1) This compares with 1 percent or fewer of full-time regular government employees

The devil may be in the details here: most of the government guys I know have a 25 year pension, so its not light years away from cops. Cops are also mandatory-ed out at a certain age (55, 57?) and because they are essentially age discriminated against they still get tossed a full pension.


Now, that said, the biggest thing cops get pension wise is that they pull the overtime scam. I can certainly see OT being removed from the pension calculation, or possibly have it shifted to an average OT worked over a career. If its their career standard and the standard in their precinct to work 50 hour weeks, I see no reason why an X% pension shouldn't account for that. At the same time, obviously working 40 hour weeks for 18 years and then 60 hour weeks your last 2 shouldn't net you 20 years of a pension that is twice X%.

Smackledorfer: The devil may be in the details here: most of the government guys I know have a 25 year pension, so its not light years away from cops. Cops are also mandatory-ed out at a certain age (55, 57?) and because they are essentially age discriminated against they still get tossed a full pension.

This is pretty much the reason for the 20 year retirement for military types. Heck, after 20 years something like half of military members are busted up enough to get at least some disability. It's crazy.

orclover: GOP retirement plan:
Work until you die. Or go to prison and die.

/this will be known as the "fark you, I got mine" century.

You obviously have no grasp of the history of the human race. This will be known as the "take from the producers and give to the parasites" century. And the result is proving to be a disaster.

Folks I work with blame their taxes on Obama. They hate him because they have to pay taxes. I just let them talk; it eventually fizzles out.

skepticultist: Also: Most garbagemen who die on the job are run over by their own trucks.

As someone who has audited the policies for Veolia Transportation since their 2006 policy I can tell you this is bullshiate.

LasersHurt: relcec: Kurland: I have absolutely no problem with a garbage man getting a good pension like that. Assholes like the Subby can go fark themselves. I am just a little surprised that he can retire with full pension so young. Perhaps its due to the hazardous nature of the job.

being a roofer, farmer, logger, fisherman, pilot, taxi driver, etc. is way more dangerous than being a cop or firefighter, but they can't retire at age 40.
perhaps it is has something to do with political clout of the firefighters and cops.
perhaps that actually has everything to do with it.

... being a taxi driver... is "way more dangerous"... than being a cop or firefighter.

Wow.

Lots of jobs are more dangerous than being a cop. And before the big spike in otj cop deaths in 2010, cop wasn't even in the top 100 (iirc, it was down there with "traveling salesman" in fatality stats).

Ken VeryBigLiar: the Work Comp policies

FTFM. Actually the few death claims they've had in that period were either from getting hit by traffic or around their own warehouses.

Firethorn: Smackledorfer: The devil may be in the details here: most of the government guys I know have a 25 year pension, so its not light years away from cops. Cops are also mandatory-ed out at a certain age (55, 57?) and because they are essentially age discriminated against they still get tossed a full pension.

This is pretty much the reason for the 20 year retirement for military types. Heck, after 20 years something like half of military members are busted up enough to get at least some disability. It's crazy.

That's because they are weak. Rather than caring about protecting the U.S., they only care about the paycheck.

DrPainMD: Lots of jobs are more dangerous than being a cop. And before the big spike in otj cop deaths in 2010, cop wasn't even in the top 100 (iirc, it was down there with "traveling salesman" in fatality stats).

"On the job" can be quite different than work-related. I've had heart attack claims for truckers and other professions denied death benefits because while they were in the course and scope of their duties it's hard to tag the company when the guy is walking around at 5'10 and 325 with a history of heart issues.

/I've got two clients that average three to five death claims a year.
//Freaky shiat sometimes.

1) Start at 17, retire at 37? How so? Cops can go at 20. I want to see a plan that allows others to go after 20 no matter what their age. Here's the one I'm familiar with. It's 30 years.

2) Defined benefit pensions are based from income and years of service. Less years of service means less pension. Again, an example from Delaware where I live

3) Defined benefit pensions were fine until the financial collapse in 2008. All the people who helped bring us that little crisis got bailed out and are still making their insane money investing other's earned incomes. But no, blame the little guy.

Your state taxes are going up, way up, because the state hired people at a reasonable wage, and matched their pension contributions during their twenty years of public service, instead of hiring chinese slaves to do the work like the ones that made your ipod, xbox, and other frilly toys, you spoiled fark. If you don't like it, you could live in a state like mine, where trash contracting is privately contracted... and guess what, it doesn't really save you any farking money at all, not because of evil unions or soshulizt muslins, but because they actually pay people wages on which they can raise a family, buy food, buy medicine, and have a home. Leave it to farking misinformed capitalists to biatch about how people don't give them services for free.

Because people who do difficult, menial jobs for long periods of time don't deserve to have their benefits paid out just because they fulfilled their end of the bargain.

Yes, this seems ridiculous now, because we don't live in a world where those jobs are available, not anymore. But yes, for a long time it was "Work here 20-30 years, and you get a pension." Surprising, I know, but it would help if you weren't a MORON, subby.

HempHead: I doubt any current plans allow you to retire at age 37.

I would like to see any plan, old or new, that allows a garbage collector to receive a pension at 37.

This article is not about firefighters or military.

Ennuipoet: You know what Subby, if the guy was farkin' garbage man for 20 years, he showed up to work and picked up shiat five days a week for 20 frakin' years...he deserves every dime he gets. Jesus, people saying mind boggling stupid shiat like this really make we want to cockpunch every Republican I meet, which mean I would have to cockpunch my Dad and I am pretty sure he can still kick my ass.

Yet another defender of the freeloaders, right here.

We must protect the hardworking Americans right to earn every dollar they make, to make sure the money they're given isn't just taken away by the government. We must fight to make sure the Paris Hiltons of the world don't lose their hard-inherited millions to some lazy, do-for-nothing slob who can't even make enough money off of her two obviously family-ties jobs to feed her four welfare write-offs, and won't do the bootstrappy thing and marry into money. And we must insure that money never goes into the hands of someone even worse than that shiftless waste of human space: The ebil gubmint worker. Anyone who works for the government is directly stealing from your freedoms, and must be stopped before it's too late. That's why we fight hard to take away their pensions, their collective bargaining rights, and their right to organize: Because we want them to abandon the coward's way out and actually work hard for their money, just like the Kardashians.

DOWN WITH FREELOADERS! UP WITH JERSEY SHORE!

Kiss up, kick down, America. That will solve your problems, I promise.

coco ebert: I have never heard of this "not paying into SS" business. How widespread is this?

Most non federal government employees.

Surool: Too bad the rest of us can't have collective bargaining.

No one is stopping you from forming a union at your workplace.

Well, unless you work in a company like Walmart that spends millions a year illegally trying to stop you.

relcec: I guess illinois was one of the most irresponsible States about actually doing what it promised it would, but and all things being equal, give me the Illinois pension over social security any day.

it looks like that State is at least forced to reckon with its promises before it is utterly impossible to do anything about it.

So glad to be out of Illinois!

Since I left, property taxes where I used to live have gone up 50%, while property values have dropped by 20%. Then there's the income tax increase, if you are lucky enough to have a job, what with unemployment higher than the national average there.

But it's ok, the government employees have got theirs!

JAYoung: Same with some of the stories I've heard of big city teachers' unions being used to cut pay and benefits for some $25,000 a year hard-working and dedicated young teacher in my local school system.

Where is this going on?

WI teachers were estimated to get on average $100k/yr in salary/bennies
Chris Christie in NJ only told teachers that they had to start contributing 1% to their pensions and benefits and wanted to return union dues money ($180M or $870/teacher/year) back to the teachers.

Obviously the Unions have a problem with this.

Watch "Waiting for Superman" to see what public Unions are doing to this country.