truthseeker2083: No offense, but the gay community has taken about as much as they can, and having tried civil tones before, some people just snap at the stupid.

thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis!

I just have to think back to when Maine had Prop 1 (just after California's Prop 8, btw). The LGBT crowd were all about rational arguments for gay marriage, while the fundies pulled out the stops with obfuscation, appeals to primal instincts (i.e. THINK OF TEH CHILDRENS) and outright lies.

I don't blame Savage for snapping. Sometimes taking the high road will only get you so far. The time HAS come to fight fire with fire.

Max Awesome: Callous:
I'm not being an ass. I'm speaking from personal experience...

Your personal anecdote is so frustrating to read. You were brain-washed to believe that gay people are mentally defective and were to be shunned

Yes, that's exactly what happened.

(not particularly Christ-like by the way)

Absolutely not, but I didn't see it then.

and when you expressed this horrible attitude to the first gay people you met you were stunned and offended that they took offense?

No, they reacted the way I had been told to expect them to react. I had been taught to believe that reaction was proof of their mental defect.

And you only turned around when you met a gay person who was so noble that they didn't get upset when you treated them as less-than human

I never treated or thought of gay people as less than human. I believed they were all mentally damaged/defective. She very well might have been ready to explode but she was nothing but nice and completely shattered my view of how gay people are. I didn't know what to think at that point and ignorance and possibly a bit of fear gave way to curiosity. Initially it was to see when the name calling and anger would come. It never did. And I began to learn.

so therefore all gay people should only face hatred with patient love and humility?

It's not hatred, it's ignorance. There probably is a degree of fear due to the ignorance. But telling you that you are mentally damaged/defective is thought to be the right thing to do. Like they are somehow helping you by pointing out that you need to be "fixed". Anger and insults are exactly what they are taught to expect. It plays right into the BS they have been told. My whole point here is to avoid reinforcing that BS by giving into the anger. It's not hatred, it's ignorance. Yes there are haters, but they are very much the minority.

Shouldn't it be the Christians who reach out to the oppressed with love and acceptance - like Jesus did?

Absolutely, but it isn't. I'm sorry it's not, but it is what it is. I lived that life for about the first 15 or 16 years of my life. I still have many of those friends. There are MANY wonderful people. They need to be shown what they believe is not true. Don't give in to the urge to get angry and call them names, it's what they expect and it reinforces their misguided beliefs.

I'm not saying that all of them will ever accept you, but some, possibly many, will. Some will never work to help you, but if we can get them to stop working against you it can be just as effective.

I'm not saying to not be active and to accept what they call you. On the contrary. Talk to them about it in a rational manner. Their opinions are not rational but they are not aware of it, it's normal to them. Once you are able to get through to them and point it out they will have to at least think about it. Don't expect an immediate turn around. It took me a couple years before I was able to let go of those beliefs and change the way I thought.

The My Little Pony Killer:

Good luck.

eddiesocket: I can't for the life of me figure out why you think it's my responsibility to hold the hypothetical bigoted Christian's hand through this process. 12 years ago this lesbian girl made the judgment call that you were worth all this trouble. Bully for her. I see no upside to pandering to such hateful people.

And once again you demonstrate why no progress is being made in changing their minds. It's not hatred, it's ignorance. Every time you call it hate you play right into the BS. Yes there are hateful people. They are by no stretch the majority, just the loudest mouthed.

truthseeker2083: I went to my father's church while I was staying with him a while ago. I don't believe in that stuff, but I sat silent and respectful. I didn't even walk out when his preacher started going on about there being no poor in America, and certainly no one starving. I sat there, bit my tongue, and stayed silent. I only brought it up to him when he asked me again to go to church and I said no. He asked why not, and THAT's when I brought up the vile things spewed at church. I was silent and let them speak, and it sucked, but I was mature about opposing view points. These christians didn't even TRY to make it that far.

It's an echo chamber. I have only ever made progress when I can talk to them away from that environment. When they are together and you start challenging their views you will see them start looking around at each other for support if there is a group of them. And they will behave as they have been told because there are witnesses that will rat on them if they "misbehave".

Canned Tamales: Callous: eddiesocket: Callous: PonceAlyosha: Callous: Keep having conversations with them. Let them walk away with a good experience to remember. It will make them think, perhaps shatter a stereotype. Try and develop friendships with them. Creating divisions never helps. Let the nut jobs be nut jobs. But don't let them bait you into looking like a nut job.

Oh yeah, that'll change the mind of all those homophobic state legislatures, congressmen, senators and governors! Why didn't we think of just letting them walk all over us before?

There are people that elect those jackasses. Those are the people you should be concerned about. Politicians do what they think will get them votes. Concentrate on changing the minds of the voters. Not acting like an ass and calling those voters names for who they voted for. Offending them will only make them dig in.

Really, at this point you're being a condescending ass. I know you "mean well", but please don't lecture minorities on how to be minorities.

I'm not being an ass. I'm speaking from personal experience. I grew up in a Baptist home, went to a Baptist church and school. My parents not so much, but the school and church taught me to think of gays as mentally sick and perverted. I was taught to avoid gay people anyway I could. And I met several gay people that got all angry and worked up when I told them I believed that being gay was sick and disgusting. The negative reaction by them, while understandable, only served to reenforce the stereotype I held. Some people will change their opinions on their own, I was not one of those people. I needed "help" to cross that bridge from rejection to acceptance. Calling me or those I voted for names would have completely backfired.

About 12 years ago I met a gay woman that didn't react negatively and just kept talking to me. We became friends. Great friends I would say. My mother flipped a brick when she found out I had a gay friend. She eventually, it took years, met ...

And what you and others consistently fail to realize....is that the only reason that gay person was able to be open, honest, and become you friend was in part because of the generations of fire-breathing activists who risked a lot by loudly and rudely calling out bigotry for what is was. Most minorities have done the "catch flies with honey" routine all their lives as a matter of survival. But that kind of survival used to require hiding yourself away your whole life, too.

Because of all those people who you claim are somehow people dig in deeper, your friend was able to be honest, a whole person, of just a sterotype in your mind. The fact that you identify her as "good" while rude activists are "bad" or "hurting their own cause" only serves to clearly show that the difference is all in your mind. To you, demanding equality is "rude"....and that has nothing to do with them...that's you being all farked up.

If it hadn't been for the "out & proud", the fire-breathers....this woman might never have had the courage or the safety to ever let you in on the secret. And then you (and every other ex-gay-hater in the world) would never have had your ideas truly confronted and challenged. Sure, the memory of being rebuked might still sting....but you were the one dehumanizing them out of the gate. Maybe the things they have to do to survive as equals doesn't have as much to do with respecting your gut feelings as you think. Maybe you didn't like the in-your-face ones...but do you really think they don't help pave the way for those who come after?


/activism, how does it work?

To add to Canned Tamales point, I grew up in the middle of the religious right. These people weren't just the poor misguided good hearted people that we're supposed to believe bigots are, they were actively hateful. This was back in the early '90s when Act Up and Queer Nation were in the height of their confrontational style of activism, and that kind of activism and taking to the streets to demand their rights was something that I could understand. It took me a lot longer to get over the whole, "it's a sin" programming, but taking to the streets to demand equal rights was something that made sense. Not only that, but the loud confrontational approach was the only alternative viewpoint I heard. Without the activists, I quite literally would have never been presented with the idea that being gay was normal and nothing to be ashamed of until I went to work in retail to make money for college and ended up with lots of gay coworkers. Oh, and that would also be why, unlike Callous, I knew better than to be a complete ass to my coworkers.

eddiesocket: Callous: eddiesocket: I can't for the life of me figure out why you think it's my responsibility to hold the hypothetical bigoted Christian's hand through this process. 12 years ago this lesbian girl made the judgment call that you were worth all this trouble. Bully for her. I see no upside to pandering to such hateful people.

And once again you demonstrate why no progress is being made in changing their minds. It's not hatred, it's ignorance. Every time you call it hate you play right into the BS. Yes there are hateful people. They are by no stretch the majority, just the loudest mouthed.

Calling people disgusting is by definition hatred.
And you don't seem to have much knowledge of the society around you if you think no progress is being made.

Hatred is an emotion. There is no hatred involved. Earlier I said "And I met several gay people that got all angry and worked up when I told them I believed that being gay was sick and disgusting". I'm sure I never said it like that. I used the words mental illness and gross to describe gay behavior. But that is how I viewed it. Because that was all I knew. I viewed gays as mentally sick, and gay behavior as disgusting because I had a warped view of how gays behaved. We were only told about unsafe and hugely promiscuous behavior. Gays having a loving committed relationship was never a consideration. Homosexuality was portrayed as nothing but debauchery. The whole thing revolves around ignorance and misinformation. When I first heard her tell me she had been with the same woman for 10 years I was dumbfounded. It violated everything I believed about what homosexuals are.

There was no hatred or malice. If you can't accept that I understand. But where I was hatred was never acceptable. If any emotion was involved it was pity for people I viewed as mentally ill.

truthseeker2083: Callous: truthseeker2083: I went to my father's church while I was staying with him a while ago. I don't believe in that stuff, but I sat silent and respectful. I didn't even walk out when his preacher started going on about there being no poor in America, and certainly no one starving. I sat there, bit my tongue, and stayed silent. I only brought it up to him when he asked me again to go to church and I said no. He asked why not, and THAT's when I brought up the vile things spewed at church. I was silent and let them speak, and it sucked, but I was mature about opposing view points. These christians didn't even TRY to make it that far.

It's an echo chamber. I have only ever made progress when I can talk to them away from that environment. When they are together and you start challenging their views you will see them start looking around at each other for support if there is a group of them. And they will behave as they have been told because there are witnesses that will rat on them if they "misbehave".

I understand that it's easier to deal with them one on one. I was responding to the post about staying somewhere that views are being challenged, and how it's ok they walked out because they might hear something challenging to their delicate ears. My point was that I sat there, bit my tongue, and listened to a vile sermon, supposedly from a godly man, when these precious teens couldn't even comprehend doing the same.

They have been specifically taught to avoid anything at goes against what they have been taught. So to them leaving was the right thing to do. And as soon as one stood up the rest were guaranteed to line and follow. There's a great deal of peer pressure in the form of ratting to the adults when someone doesn't fall in line. Good for you for biting your tongue and sitting through it. I have found that paying attention and then later addressing the speakers points and picking them apart when you have someone one on one quite effective. Won't convert them immediately, but you will get them thinking.

eddiesocket: Let the hateful bigots be hateful bigots (yes, that's what they are).

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. They will say that you are mentally ill and engage in reprehensible behavior just like you say they are hateful bigots. Both of you are wrong. So there's one thing you do have in common with them. You're both brainwashed to believe something untrue about the other.