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(LA Times)   Of the $200,000 in donations George Zimmerman raised from his website, he's already blown through $50,000 of it on "living expenses, rent or whatever"   (latimes.com) divider line 929
    More: Obvious, donations, attorney-in-fact, expenses  
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16006 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Apr 2012 at 3:58 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-28 10:13:47 AM  
choosepp.net

This should be the sign at the entrance to each Fark thread. Just for derpers...
 
2012-04-28 10:21:22 AM  

Silly Jesus: Zimmerman's horribly violent history...

1 bar fight which was, at least initially, in defense of a friend who he thought was being attacked. (I realize that it was an undercover officer, and I have heard that the officer said that he identified himself to Zimmerman, but being in the presence of a few bar fights, myself, I don't put much weight on this entire incident...it's noisy, there is alcohol, it's crowded...) Hell, let's, just for arguments sake, go ahead and say Zimmerman was fully responsible for the bar fight...

1 instance of him reportedly slapping his wife. Restraining orders were filed by both parties.

Both were several years ago...

Based on that I wouldn't repeatedly throw into every single post in these threads that "Zimmerman was a very violent and aggressive person."

Want to go over all of his documented positive qualities? I think that if we did they would more than cancel out these two "instances of violence and aggression."

Shall we list all of his positives? Or do those not matter when making a judgement of character?


True, but let's list Martin's list of violent incidents:
Nothing.

There, done with the list.

Now, which person do you consider more likely to start a fight with a stranger?
 
2012-04-28 10:36:02 AM  

Brainsick: redhook: Zimmerman was the Captain of the neighborhood watch.

[media.tumblr.com image 271x271]

I'm fairly certain I stated (in the post you responded to) that there was no neighborhood watch to be captain of. Better do your homework on 'citizen's arrest' laws too, I bet it doesn't mean what you think it does. If you 'citizens arrest' someone, you stand a good chance of being charged with false imprisonment, kidnapping, or wrongful arrest, just off the top of my head.


Link

i37.photobucket.com
 
2012-04-28 11:10:45 AM  
Mavent:
Well, the reason is obvious: it's the Farker version of "some of my best friends are black"

Oh, STFU, you evil racist scum. Two black girls were raised as his sisters, and he went into business with a black partner. Pull your head out of your own racist ass, for once.
 
2012-04-28 11:11:25 AM  

chewielouie: Link


From your link:
The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol -- a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.
Actually, they asked for volunteers and George was the only one. Nuance.

At 14 he became obsessed with becoming a Marine, a relative said, joining the after-school ROTC program at Grace E. Metz Middle School and polishing his boots by night.
Oh, well, guys who spend inordinate amounts of time on power-fantasies are usually legit.

On his own at 18, George got a job at an insurance agency and began to take classes at night to earn a license to sell insurance.
Hmmm... wonder why he wasn't in the Marines yet...

In 2004, Zimmerman partnered with an African-American friend and opened up an Allstate insurance satellite office, Donnelly said.
He has a black friend? Oh...well then

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.
That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.
Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.


What I see is a man who, for whatever reason, didn't join the military or police and seems to have an 'authority' fetish in his spare time. Keep in mind, NOBODY else volunteered for the neighborhood watch patrol; they were all too busy or scared or something. But George did. He volunteered his balls off. Got a bigger dog, gave people his card and told them to call him after they called police. And of course, the 'dog-walk patrol' which he engaged in while carrying his 9mm, against regulations. Not against 'the law' but against the rules of the organization he willingly and eagerly joined.
I'm not saying Zimmerman 'stalked and killed' Trayvon, and I'm not suggesting he had a 'vendetta against black people' or anything like that. What I AM suggesting, is that there should of at least been a hearing date set by the time this story hit the national press. You've got a dead, unarmed teenager and a 'gung-ho' neighborhood watch "captain" who was acting in a manner contrary to established guidelines for said watch. If the case goes to trial and Zimmerman is acquitted of wrongdoing, that's one thing, but to look at this scene and say "Yeah, he seems legit, case closed" is an entirely different, more wrong thing, and that's what needs to be investigated along with the facts of the shooting.
 
2012-04-28 11:25:02 AM  

Silly Jesus: Vigilante? Seriously? You can make better arguments than that. Using loaded words is a sign of a weak argument, not a strong one.


A poster above me said something about vigilante behavior, it was more of a reference to that. And...

Silly Jesus: This is the sign at the entrance to Zimmerman's neighborhood. Just for starters...


www.thegrio.com

I'll see your sign and raise you
ebid.s3.amazonaws.com

Neighborhood watch signs are a low-level deterrent measure, not a decree of officialness.
 
2012-04-28 11:39:14 AM  

choo: [choosepp.net image 370x387]

This should be the sign at the entrance to each Fark thread. Just for derpers...


Depends on the thread. The Zimmerman threads seem to bring them out by the dozens.
 
2012-04-28 11:55:30 AM  
I'd like to congratulate some people here for colossal stupidity. Even if you are trolling, you are doing it so poorly that the only thing more sad, is that reasonable people have wasted their time trying to swat you away.

I'd name you, but you know who you are.
 
2012-04-28 11:56:16 AM  

durbnpoisn: Until today, I didn't realize that bail was set based on how much a defendant had. I thought it was based on how bad the crime was, and what their risk of skipping bail were.

So, if he has a lot of money, his bail should be higher?! Why the fark is that?!
The idea that someone might simply skip bail because they are loaded is totally absurd. Where will they go? What will they do? How will they get access to all that money?

There is something seriously stupid about this.

In fact, there is something seriously stupid about this entire situation. There is FAR more to this story than we know.


His bail was already quite high for a second-degree murder charge. There are people who got 75K bail for first degree murder in Seminole and surrounding counties

Doubt his bail goes much higher, if at all. He will have hiuge lawyer expenses, and, the judge cannot merely raise bail if the money is not directly Zimmerman's
 
2012-04-28 11:59:27 AM  
As the only person to volunteer when the homeowners association wanted to organize a community watch,[50] Zimmerman was appointed coordinator by his neighbors, according to Wendy Dorival, Neighborhood Watch organizer for the Sanford Police Department.[51] The homeowner's association told residents who saw suspicious activity to call Zimmerman if they could not contact the police.[52] "He [Zimmerman] once caught a thief and an arrest was made," said Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association.[50]
 
2012-04-28 12:01:24 PM  
Funny how the Black Racists and White Guilt Liberals are quick to attack Zimmerman....when Trayvon's family had no problem going and Trademarking his name even before he was buried.

No problem with Trayvon family and his Black Racist lawyers making money off a Trayvon...but Zimmerman raising money for his defense of bogus charges....THATS RACIST

(Hell, Zimmerman is more black than Dred Scott and Spike Lee are..)
 
2012-04-28 12:14:35 PM  

Silly Jesus: You seem to be a fairly reasonable guy. If you find the time, read this very well written article by Reuters that delves into Zimmerman's past. I think that it is actually quite neutral on the situation and it sheds some light on what may have been in Zimmerman's mind on that night that drove his "prejudices."

Reuters on Zimmerman (Pops)


That IS a well-written article!

Thanks for providing the link.

Reuters should do another one - equally well-written - on Trayvon Martin's life. (unless they already have and I've missed it)
 
2012-04-28 12:15:49 PM  

Brainsick: chewielouie: Link

From your link:
The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol -- a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.
Actually, they asked for volunteers and George was the only one. Nuance.

At 14 he became obsessed with becoming a Marine, a relative said, joining the after-school ROTC program at Grace E. Metz Middle School and polishing his boots by night.
Oh, well, guys who spend inordinate amounts of time on power-fantasies are usually legit.

On his own at 18, George got a job at an insurance agency and began to take classes at night to earn a license to sell insurance.
Hmmm... wonder why he wasn't in the Marines yet...

In 2004, Zimmerman partnered with an African-American friend and opened up an Allstate insurance satellite office, Donnelly said.
He has a black friend? Oh...well then

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.
That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.
Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

What I see is a man who, for whatever reason, didn't join the military or police and seems to have an 'authority' fetish in his spare time. Keep in mind, NOBODY else volunteered for the neighborhood watch patrol; they were all too busy or scared or something. But Geo ...


We get it. You're outraged that a black kid was shot by a guy you were initially led to believe was a white racist, and now you have to keep justifying your outrage rather than admit that you were easily hoodiewinked by the 2012 Troll Story of the Year.
 
2012-04-28 12:25:13 PM  

redhook: Can you cite any report that he was in a backyard?


He was not at the street. He left the street, went around to the other side of the house. Normal people call that a backyard. There were 911 calls from people who live there, they said the fight was in their backyard.

For instance, in this 911 call, the dispatcher asks if it's in front of or behind the house, and the lady replies "It's behind my house". That's the call where you can hear the screaming and the gunshot.

Then there is this 911 call, who says "It's behind the house, it's not the front entrance, if you're looking at my house, it's behind, like the back porch"

Or this one where the guy starts the call with "There was a shot behind my house".

You can pretend it happened out by the street all you want, but you're lying about stuff that everyone knows.

redhook: There is also no mention in the transcript of him running.


You linked the transcript. This is a clip from what you linked. I added a couple of circles to make word the parts about running and following stand out. Not that it'll matter, you already know it, you're just making shiat up.

i1005.photobucket.com

So much for your "no mention of him running" nonsense. You linked it yourself, and lied about how there is no mention of running.

redhook: See this, not a backyard. This is what you call a "common area".


The people who live there disagree with you. But you're lying about the "no mention of running", too, so that's no surprise. Also, note that the pics you posted don't show a street. Why? Because the shooting didn't happen near the street, they happened around the other side of the building (which I would call the "back", and you can call any damn thing you want). Which is the point. Zimmerman was there, not at his car in the front, because he chased after Martin.

tirob: I am not sure his lawyer will permit him to testify.


I don't see how he could avoid testifying. There isn't any question that he followed Martin, or that he shot Martin. He has to claim self defense, or he'd be better off to make a plea deal before trial. And without his testimony, I don't see how you can argue self defense. I'm certainly not a lawyer, but it seems to me like he pretty much has to take the stand.

Silly Jesus: You are now Pretty in Pink.


Smart man. Avoiding me is probably better than lying, the way Redhook did. Easier just to pretend I didn't say anything than to make up bullshiat that I can easily disprove.

That's the problem with the Zimmerman supporters. You can hide from the argument, or you can lie. But the facts don't work out well for you.
 
2012-04-28 12:35:42 PM  
Wow, that was a lot of hard workmtomprove yourself wrong.

No evidence that George ran: check.
No neighbors referring to their "back yard" as such: check.
 
2012-04-28 12:39:49 PM  
Work to prove.*

/stupid iPad space bar
 
2012-04-28 12:45:09 PM  

phygz: We get it. You're outraged that a black kid was shot by a guy you were initially led to believe was a white racist, and now you have to keep justifying your outrage rather than admit that you were easily hoodiewinked by the 2012 Troll Story of the Year.


We get it. You're an idiot.
 
2012-04-28 12:51:47 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Depends on the thread. The Zimmerman threads seem to bring them out by the dozens.


I've found that the more clear-cut the lines between right and wrong, the more forcefully ConservaTards will swarm out to be assholes. In this case, it really couldn't be any simpler: if Zimmerman had merely left Martin alone as directed by the 911 operator, none of this would have happened. Which means, of course, that we have every lunatic, nutjob, and closet Klansman on the planet here, defending Zimmerman. They could just admit that Martin was a completely innocent victim in what may or may not have been a simple case of an over-zealous dumbass with a gun, but that would be too simple and sane. Instead, they have to climb up on their soap boxes and tell us all why Zimmerman was perfectly justified in ending the life of a teenager. That's the part that gets me. They're more worried about Zimmerman's "right to carry around a gun acting like Deputy Dawg" than they are about the fact that a teenager died. An entire life snuffed out for no reason, and Republicans choose to make this about whether or not Martin "had it coming" because "blacks are scary" and therefore anyone with a gun has the right to shoot them.
 
2012-04-28 12:58:37 PM  

Mavent: Satanic_Hamster: Depends on the thread. The Zimmerman threads seem to bring them out by the dozens.

I've found that the more clear-cut the lines between right and wrong, the more forcefully ConservaTards will swarm out to be assholes. In this case, it really couldn't be any simpler: if Zimmerman had merely left Martin alone as directed by the 911 operator, none of this would have happened. Which means, of course, that we have every lunatic, nutjob, and closet Klansman on the planet here, defending Zimmerman. They could just admit that Martin was a completely innocent victim in what may or may not have been a simple case of an over-zealous dumbass with a gun, but that would be too simple and sane. Instead, they have to climb up on their soap boxes and tell us all why Zimmerman was perfectly justified in ending the life of a teenager. That's the part that gets me. They're more worried about Zimmerman's "right to carry around a gun acting like Deputy Dawg" than they are about the fact that a teenager died. An entire life snuffed out for no reason, and Republicans choose to make this about whether or not Martin "had it coming" because "blacks are scary" and therefore anyone with a gun has the right to shoot them.


Damn you have a lot of names for people.
 
2012-04-28 01:01:10 PM  

Mavent: phygz: We get it. You're outraged that a black kid was shot by a guy you were initially led to believe was a white racist, and now you have to keep justifying your outrage rather than admit that you were easily hoodiewinked by the 2012 Troll Story of the Year.

We get it. You're an idiot.


Oh, how I love broad statements. Please elaborate on your educated assessment of my intelligence level, what was it that led you to believe that my intellect pales to your obviously superior brainpower?
 
2012-04-28 01:10:07 PM  

Mavent: Satanic_Hamster: Depends on the thread. The Zimmerman threads seem to bring them out by the dozens.

I've found that the more clear-cut the lines between right and wrong, the more forcefully ConservaTards will swarm out to be assholes. In this case, it really couldn't be any simpler: if Zimmerman had merely left Martin alone as directed by the 911 operator, none of this would have happened. Which means, of course, that we have every lunatic, nutjob, and closet Klansman on the planet here, defending Zimmerman. They could just admit that Martin was a completely innocent victim in what may or may not have been a simple case of an over-zealous dumbass with a gun, but that would be too simple and sane. Instead, they have to climb up on their soap boxes and tell us all why Zimmerman was perfectly justified in ending the life of a teenager. That's the part that gets me. They're more worried about Zimmerman's "right to carry around a gun acting like Deputy Dawg" than they are about the fact that a teenager died. An entire life snuffed out for no reason, and Republicans choose to make this about whether or not Martin "had it coming" because "blacks are scary" and therefore anyone with a gun has the right to shoot them.


Maybe some people are just sick and tired of the false outrage and race-baiting that came out full force with this story. There are farking retards defending both sides of this, justifying it with their own brands of racism. The truly objective people are the ones that understand and admit that

A) Zimmerman was an asshole
2) The kid was not as innocent as initially portrayed (as in being an attacker)
III) Nobody would have given a flying fark about any of this if the victim was white
 
2012-04-28 01:11:48 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Silly Jesus: Zimmerman's horribly violent history...

1 bar fight which was, at least initially, in defense of a friend who he thought was being attacked. (I realize that it was an undercover officer, and I have heard that the officer said that he identified himself to Zimmerman, but being in the presence of a few bar fights, myself, I don't put much weight on this entire incident...it's noisy, there is alcohol, it's crowded...) Hell, let's, just for arguments sake, go ahead and say Zimmerman was fully responsible for the bar fight...

1 instance of him reportedly slapping his wife. Restraining orders were filed by both parties.

Both were several years ago...

Based on that I wouldn't repeatedly throw into every single post in these threads that "Zimmerman was a very violent and aggressive person."

Want to go over all of his documented positive qualities? I think that if we did they would more than cancel out these two "instances of violence and aggression."

Shall we list all of his positives? Or do those not matter when making a judgement of character?

True, but let's list Martin's list of violent incidents:
Nothing.

There, done with the list.

Now, which person do you consider more likely to start a fight with a stranger?


I don't know enough to make that call. Some of the meanest and most meat-headed violent idiots that I knew in high school have a clean criminal record.

Martin wasn't a saint, either. As far as I know his juvenile records (if there are any) would be sealed and there are a couple of questionable things that haven't really been confirmed or denied by anyone. But I'm not going to try to slam his character like others have as a basis for determining right and wrong here.

My post was about my belief that Zimmerman's "history of aggression and violence" was not incredibly egregious. And I certainly don't think that it is enough to base any assumptions about the fight on. YMMV

.
 
2012-04-28 01:13:36 PM  

s2s2s2: Wow, that was a lot of hard workmtomprove yourself wrong.

No evidence that George ran: check.
No neighbors referring to their "back yard" as such: check.


Evidence given by George that Martin ran, check. George saying he's following, check. Heavy breathing on the phone as if he's running, check.

And obviously your good buddy George did catch up with Martin at some point.

None of the neighbors said "yard", but everyone said "back of the house" or "behind the house". It happened away from the street where Zimmerman left his car. I don't understand your point. It looks like you're just denying the evidence and saying "Zimmerman didn't chase him, Martin didn't run, and it happened next to Zimmermans car".

Mavent: An entire life snuffed out for no reason, and Republicans choose to make this about whether or not Martin "had it coming"


I think you're making a mistake here. I don't think that republicans, overall, all believe that this situation should have happened like it did. And I suspect that not everyone who is defending the shooter is a republican.

Of course, I'm not big on the whole "conservatives think this" and "liberals think that" stuff anyway. Most people I know fall into conservative viewpoints on some things, and liberal viewpoints on others. Very, very few fit entirely into the usual "conservative" / "liberal" divisions.
 
2012-04-28 01:16:27 PM  

phygz: III) Nobody would have given a flying fark about any of this if the victim was white red or brown.

 
2012-04-28 01:19:15 PM  

phygz: Mavent: Satanic_Hamster: Depends on the thread. The Zimmerman threads seem to bring them out by the dozens.

I've found that the more clear-cut the lines between right and wrong, the more forcefully ConservaTards will swarm out to be assholes. In this case, it really couldn't be any simpler: if Zimmerman had merely left Martin alone as directed by the 911 operator, none of this would have happened. Which means, of course, that we have every lunatic, nutjob, and closet Klansman on the planet here, defending Zimmerman. They could just admit that Martin was a completely innocent victim in what may or may not have been a simple case of an over-zealous dumbass with a gun, but that would be too simple and sane. Instead, they have to climb up on their soap boxes and tell us all why Zimmerman was perfectly justified in ending the life of a teenager. That's the part that gets me. They're more worried about Zimmerman's "right to carry around a gun acting like Deputy Dawg" than they are about the fact that a teenager died. An entire life snuffed out for no reason, and Republicans choose to make this about whether or not Martin "had it coming" because "blacks are scary" and therefore anyone with a gun has the right to shoot them.

Maybe some people are just sick and tired of the false outrage and race-baiting that came out full force with this story. There are farking retards defending both sides of this, justifying it with their own brands of racism. The truly objective people are the ones that understand and admit that

A) Zimmerman was an asshole
2) The kid was not as innocent as initially portrayed (as in being an attacker)
III) Nobody would have given a flying fark about any of this if the victim was white


Whale? Female? White what?

Who is white anyway. WTF does that mean?
 
2012-04-28 01:32:24 PM  

phygz: A) Zimmerman was an asshole
2) The kid was not as innocent as initially portrayed (as in being an attacker)
III) Nobody would have given a flying fark about any of this if the victim was white


I agree on A. I'd like to think that most people would agree, but some sure seem to see Zimmerman as a hero, so I guess not.

On 2, there is no evidence other than the shooters word that Martin was the attacker. And considering that a maniac with a gun was chasing him down at night, I feel he had a right to defend himself, so even if he threw the first punch, I don't blame him. If Zimmerman was close enough to get punched, he was close enough for Martin to feel threatened. Martin tried to avoid this. ZImmerman instigated it and refused to let it go. I can certainly understand where others would disagree with me here.

On III, I completely disagree. Some of the outrage would come from different people, and some of the Zimmerman lovers would be on the other side of the argument, but you would still have a maniac who chased down an unarmed kid, shot the kid, with a very limited investigation and no attempt at justice. Which, to me, was the biggest problem with this whole case.
 
2012-04-28 01:53:17 PM  

Brainsick: chewielouie: Link

From your link:
The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol -- a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.
Actually, they asked for volunteers and George was the only one. Nuance.

At 14 he became obsessed with becoming a Marine, a relative said, joining the after-school ROTC program at Grace E. Metz Middle School and polishing his boots by night.
Oh, well, guys who spend inordinate amounts of time on power-fantasies are usually legit.

On his own at 18, George got a job at an insurance agency and began to take classes at night to earn a license to sell insurance.
Hmmm... wonder why he wasn't in the Marines yet...

In 2004, Zimmerman partnered with an African-American friend and opened up an Allstate insurance satellite office, Donnelly said.
He has a black friend? Oh...well then

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.
That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.
Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

What I see is a man who, for whatever reason, didn't join the military or police and seems to have an 'authority' fetish in his spare time. Keep in mind, NOBODY else volunteered for the neighborhood watch patrol; they were all too busy or scared or something. But Geo ...


The case was investigated over a series of weeks and the police as well as the initial DA's office determined that enough evidence was in line with what Zimmerman said happened that it would be impossible to ethically charge him with anything.

Not sure where this idea that the police showed up, gave Zimmerman a high five, and then went out for a beer, comes from.

An investigation was done, just like with any other crime, and, again, just like with any other crime, the DA determined whether or not there was reason (evidence) to go forward with charges. This was one of the times that they decided there wasn't enough to pursue charges. Well, the mobs and POTUS and Al and Jessie didn't like that very much so they riled up enough people that the Governor appointed some nutcase (charging a 12 year old as an adult in another case) to commit perjury in order to try to get trumped up charges through on little to no evidence...and that's where we are now.
 
2012-04-28 01:58:13 PM  

JuggleGeek: redhook: Can you cite any report that he was in a backyard?

He was not at the street. He left the street, went around to the other side of the house. Normal people call that a backyard. There were 911 calls from people who live there, they said the fight was in their backyard.

For instance, in this 911 call, the dispatcher asks if it's in front of or behind the house, and the lady replies "It's behind my house". That's the call where you can hear the screaming and the gunshot.

Then there is this 911 call, who says "It's behind the house, it's not the front entrance, if you're looking at my house, it's behind, like the back porch"

Or this one where the guy starts the call with "There was a shot behind my house".

You can pretend it happened out by the street all you want, but you're lying about stuff that everyone knows.

redhook: There is also no mention in the transcript of him running.

You linked the transcript. This is a clip from what you linked. I added a couple of circles to make word the parts about running and following stand out. Not that it'll matter, you already know it, you're just making shiat up.

[i1005.photobucket.com image 569x283]

So much for your "no mention of him running" nonsense. You linked it yourself, and lied about how there is no mention of running.

redhook: See this, not a backyard. This is what you call a "common area".

The people who live there disagree with you. But you're lying about the "no mention of running", too, so that's no surprise. Also, note that the pics you posted don't show a street. Why? Because the shooting didn't happen near the street, they happened around the other side of the building (which I would call the "back", and you can call any damn thing you want). Which is the point. Zimmerman was there, not at his car in the front, because he chased after Martin.

tirob: I am not sure his lawyer will permit him to testify.

I don't see how he could avoid testifying. There isn't any question that he ...


I didn't put you on ignore, you aren't quite to that level, as of now...

What exactly did I lie about and what exactly did I say that you have proven to be untrue? Or was that just hyperbole?
 
2012-04-28 02:10:11 PM  

JuggleGeek:

tirob: I am not sure his lawyer will permit him to testify.

I don't see how he could avoid testifying.


Well, he certainly has the right not to under the Fifth Amendment.

Zimmerman has two choices: 1) He could appear at his preliminary hearing--I am not sure what it is called in Florida--and try to have the judge throw out the charge against him by proving by a preponderance of the evidence that he acted in self defense (in such a case I concur with you that he will probably have to testify), or

2) (a) He could waive the preliminary hearing and go to trial, in which case he would have to make what Florida calls a "prima facie" case that he acted in self-defense (still waiting for a Florida lawyer to provide a cite for some case law that would indicate what a "prima facie" case for self defense would look like), in which case the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did *not* act in self defense.

(b) If Zimmerman goes to trial and does not or cannot put on a prima facie case that he acted in self-defense, I believe that the prosecution would still have to prove that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense, but that the standard of proof the prosecution would have to meet will be *lower* than "beyond a reasonable doubt." (preponderance of the evidence?)

Zimmerman has already made one noticeable fluff on the stand, this during his recent "apology" to Martin's parents, when he said (not under oath AFAIK) that he believed that Martin was a little younger than him, this in contrast to his telling the 911 dispatcher on the evening of 2/26 that he thought that Martin was in his late teens. If I were Zimmerman's lawyer I would think long and hard before I put my client on the stand; if, during rehearsals when I played the part of the prosecutor, Zimmerman made a practice of "fluffing" answers such as has already happened once, I might recommend that Zimmerman waive the preliminary hearing and try to present a prima facie case for self-defense at trial using only the testimony of "John," the eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and striking him.
 
2012-04-28 02:14:43 PM  

Mavent: Satanic_Hamster: Depends on the thread. The Zimmerman threads seem to bring them out by the dozens.

I've found that the more clear-cut the lines between right and wrong, the more forcefully ConservaTards will swarm out to be assholes. In this case, it really couldn't be any simpler: if Zimmerman had merely left Martin alone as directed by the 911 operator, none of this would have happened. Which means, of course, that we have every lunatic, nutjob, and closet Klansman on the planet here, defending Zimmerman. They could just admit that Martin was a completely innocent victim in what may or may not have been a simple case of an over-zealous dumbass with a gun, but that would be too simple and sane. Instead, they have to climb up on their soap boxes and tell us all why Zimmerman was perfectly justified in ending the life of a teenager. That's the part that gets me. They're more worried about Zimmerman's "right to carry around a gun acting like Deputy Dawg" than they are about the fact that a teenager died. An entire life snuffed out for no reason, and Republicans choose to make this about whether or not Martin "had it coming" because "blacks are scary" and therefore anyone with a gun has the right to shoot them.


Stop it, just stop it already.

He wasn't ordered to do anything. "We don't need you to do that." is more like a suggestion, to which he replied, "o.k." Nevertheless, IT IS IRRELEVANT.

And no, no rational, thinking person is gonna blindly accept the premise that Martin was a completely innocent just because his family says so. Just because the media circulated an old innocent looking photo of him to sway public opinion and in the process possibly pollute the jury pool.

I will grant you that Zimmerman was a grade A imbecile for carrying a gun while on neighborhood patrol, and for going beyond merely observing and reporting to 911.

BUT, and THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS AND THAT IS RELEVANT, if Martin did not care for the fact that Zimmerman was following him, that Zimmerman maybe questioned him as to who and what he was doing there, that Zimmerman maybe even grabbed him, and that as a result he started to pummel Zimmerman by breaking his nose (looks like he did, but we don't know for sure) and banging his head against the sidewalk (certainly looks like he did from the photo) then Zimmerman was perfectly justified and well within his rights to defend himself, even with deadly force.

Don't kid yourselves, he's being prosecuted on 2nd degree murder charges for political reasons. Heck, the circus like announcement made that obvious. They should have gone for manslaughter, if anything.

Prediction:
1. There will be no plea deal. This is going to trial.
2. Zimmerman will take the stand to give his side of the story.
3. He's gonna be acquitted.
4. Thanks to the racial tension created by Sharpton, Jackson and the NBP, there will be protests and perhaps some rioting.
5. Zimmerman will make a lot of money in a book deal and go into hiding.
6. Martin's family will file wrongful death suit against Zimmerman.

Since that night, Zimmerman no doubt regrets his decision to leave his car and not wait for the police. Hopefully, this will be a lesson to others that if you plan on carrying a gun, you damn well better be trained to use it, and never even try to get yourself into a situation where you might have to use it. You're not a cop.

Thug in the making or not, Martin did not have to die that night. But if he was the one that got all uppity with Zimmerman and started the fight, then he should have been packing more than Skittles.

Stupid came into contact with stupid that night. Unfortunately, one stupid had a gun.
 
2012-04-28 02:17:41 PM  

Silly Jesus: I didn't put you on ignore, you aren't quite to that level, as of now...

What exactly did I lie about and what exactly did I say that you have proven to be untrue? Or was that just hyperbole?


I didn't say you lied. I said that Zimmerman supporters seem to choose "ignore it" or "lie about it" because using actual facts doesn't work in their favor.

What you did was to ignore me. You claimed that I made up 75% of the stuff I posted, but you didn't mention any single item, you didn't really respond to me at all except to call me an idiot. Considering my low opinion of you, you calling me an idiot doesn't really bother me.
 
2012-04-28 02:35:02 PM  

tirob: Well, he certainly has the right not to under the Fifth Amendment.


Of course he has the right. But it's hard to argue self defense if you aren't willing to say "I felt I had to defend myself". As I said before, if he isn't willing to testify, he better work out a plea deal and avoid a court trial. I'm pretty sure he'll testify, because if he doesn't, he's almost certainly doing time. If he testifies, he might get off.

chewielouie: And no, no rational, thinking person is gonna blindly accept the premise that Martin was a completely innocent just because his family says so.


You guys can keep pretending Martin was a thug in the middle of a felony all you want, but there is no actual evidence of that. Every bit of available evidence is that he was someplace where he had a right to be, where he had a logical reason to be, that he had walked to the store, bought candy for his brother and a drink for himself, and he was walking home and talking on the phone to his GF. There is no evidence that he was doing anything else.

Yes, I've heard 9beers screaming about how he was casing houses - but even Zimmerman didn't make that claim. Some other asshole was screaming about how Martin was looking into windows - again, with no evidence whatsoever, and it seems very likely that Zimmerman would have mentioned it if that had been the case.

chewielouie: They should have gone for manslaughter, if anything.


On that, I agree with you. Unless they have evidence we haven't heard, 2nd degree murder sounds like they are reaching.

6. Martin's family will file wrongful death suit against Zimmerman.

From what I've read, if the court rules that this was self defense, Martin's family won't be allowed to sue. You seem very convinced that Zimmerman will walk, and I'm not so sure. I think it's possible, but I think they might get a conviction (likely on a lesser charge than the muder2 charge.)
 
2012-04-28 02:41:13 PM  

chewielouie:

Prediction:
1. There will be no plea deal. This is going to trial.
2. Zimmerman will take the stand to give his side of the story.
3. He's gonna be acquitted.
4. Thanks to the racial tension created by Sharpton, Jackson and the NBP, there will be protests and perhaps some rioting.
5. Zimmerman will make a lot of money in a book deal and go into hiding.
6. Martin's family will file wrongful death suit against Zimmerman.


1. I'll buy that.
2. I wouldn't bet my collection of hockey cards that he will. His memory seems not to be particularly good so far.
3. Too soon to say. Let's wait for the prosecution to present its case.
4. Funny how you blame Sharpton, Jackson, et al. for the tension here. I would give Norm Wolfinger, the Seminole County prosecutor who initially decided against prosecuting Zimmerman, some of the credit, too.
5. Citizen's Guide to Shooting Suspicious Characters Under Color of Town Watch Authority.
6. If Zimmerman is acquitted, Florida law would bar Martin's family from suing Zimmerman for wrongful death.
 
2012-04-28 02:57:53 PM  

JuggleGeek: phygz: A) Zimmerman was an asshole
2) The kid was not as innocent as initially portrayed (as in being an attacker)
III) Nobody would have given a flying fark about any of this if the victim was white

I agree on A. I'd like to think that most people would agree, but some sure seem to see Zimmerman as a hero, so I guess not.

On 2, there is no evidence other than the shooters word that Martin was the attacker. And considering that a maniac with a gun was chasing him down at night, I feel he had a right to defend himself, so even if he threw the first punch, I don't blame him. If Zimmerman was close enough to get punched, he was close enough for Martin to feel threatened. Martin tried to avoid this. ZImmerman instigated it and refused to let it go. I can certainly understand where others would disagree with me here.

On III, I completely disagree. Some of the outrage would come from different people, and some of the Zimmerman lovers would be on the other side of the argument, but you would still have a maniac who chased down an unarmed kid, shot the kid, with a very limited investigation and no attempt at justice. Which, to me, was the biggest problem with this whole case.


2- there is no evidence anyone was "chasing" anyone. Following does not equal chasing. Some people here would like to portray GZ as chasing with gun in hand, arms flailing. I seriously doubt that GZ pulled his gun out at any time before he shot the kid, then again I don't know, and neither do any of the armchair detectives screaming cold-blooded murder.

III- This is where the reverse racists and guilt-ridden liberals show their true colors- when the case first came out, it was all pretty much about how an innocent black kid was gunned down by a racist vigilante, with facts being distorted and withheld to bolster this scenario. As facts emerged and it became more clear that there was no racial motivation for the shooting, the focus closed in on the "injustice" of the shooter not being charged. GZ was cuffed, taken in for questioning for hours and released not because the police didn't care about justice, but because there was no evidence or case to arrest him on.
If you still think this is all about "injustice" and not about the need to show how "the evil white society still has it out for the hapless black man", answer this truthfully- if white kid "Trevor Martin" was gunned down by a black man under the exact same circumstances, would there be the same outrage? Would Rev. Al, Jesse and the Black Panthers be screaming for justice?
Fark no, and neither would anyone here. There are plenty of cases of real injustice out there that go unnoticed- if it was a caucasian kid that was shot in this particular case, it would have been at the most a 100 comment thread here and forgotten about.
 
2012-04-28 03:04:44 PM  

Mavent: if Zimmerman had merely left Martin alone as directed by the 911 operator


On what evidence do you base this claim?
 
2012-04-28 03:29:10 PM  

JuggleGeek: Yes, I've heard 9beers screaming about how he was casing houses - but even Zimmerman didn't make that claim. Some other asshole was screaming about how Martin was looking into windows - again, with no evidence whatsoever, and it seems very likely that Zimmerman would have mentioned it if that had been the case.


When have we had a chance to hear Zimmerman's statements to the police? Hilarious that you can speculate all you want on this case, even after the prosecution admits to not having the evidence to support it, but when somebody else speculates, you're sure that they're wrong.

Face it dude, there's not a shred of evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime that night.
 
2012-04-28 03:37:29 PM  

9beers:
Face it dude, there's not a shred of evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime that night.


Oh, I don't know about that. Given what so far appears on the face of them to be the relatively minor injuries that Zimmerman suffered (no, we won't know their true extent until the medical evidence comes out), I'd say that there is at least an arguable case that Zimmerman committed voluntary manslaughter.
 
2012-04-28 03:39:58 PM  

9beers: Face it dude, there's not a shred of evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime that night.


Look, 3shyofa12pack(said in love); All they are saying, is that every time a black teenager is shot, a Peruvian-Jew should go to prison. Because: racism. Is that so hard to understand? Is it really too much to ask?

/lqtms
 
2012-04-28 03:43:48 PM  

tirob: Oh, I don't know about that. Given what so far appears on the face of them to be the relatively minor injuries that Zimmerman suffered (no, we won't know their true extent until the medical evidence comes out), I'd say that there is at least an arguable case that Zimmerman committed voluntary manslaughter.


So how many times does a person need to have his head banged off the cement by an attacker before he's allowed to be in fear of great bodily harm?
 
2012-04-28 03:44:49 PM  

tirob: Oh, I don't know about that. Given what so far appears on the face of them to be the relatively minor injuries that Zimmerman suffered (no, we won't know their true extent until the medical evidence comes out), I'd say that there is at least an arguable case that Zimmerman committed voluntary manslaughter.


776.041 does not require an extent of injury qualifier. The aggressor/user of deadly force only has to have no reasonable retreat, and fear of impending "great bodily harm". We KNOW George's nose was broken, the defense handed the prosecution the medical report on live(and recorded) TV.
We have an eyewitness that says almost immediately after viewing Martin on top of Zimmerman, a shot was fired. I can totally see a conviction. Innocent(under the law) people go to prison everyday.
 
2012-04-28 03:47:01 PM  

tirob: 9beers:
Face it dude, there's not a shred of evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime that night.

Oh, I don't know about that. Given what so far appears on the face of them to be the relatively minor injuries that Zimmerman suffered (no, we won't know their true extent until the medical evidence comes out), I'd say that there is at least an arguable case that Zimmerman committed voluntary manslaughter.


Amount of damage =/= murderer

It's the action of getting your head beat upon the sidewalk and nose broken, that's where the reasonable fear comes from.

Pain and the extent of the wounds have little to do with what is reasonable fear. If the action shows no signs of stopping, a reasonable fear could be present.

If a guy is even simply coming at you with a knife, actual injury need not be present at the time one is to employ self defense measures. It's the current action, not the current state of injuries, that sets one up for self defense. Actual injuries are, however, evidence as to being attacked.
 
2012-04-28 03:51:37 PM  
I think Conservatives tend to sound more reasonable on this issue than liberals, because liberals are really viewing this from the standpoint of caring, and wanting a generally better relationship between disparate groups. But in this case, reason and logic, and more importantly a lack of math and science, give conservatives a leg up, because the facts happen to "lean right" on this one.
So in this argument it is fair to say that liberals care more about allowing for more good in the world not leaving much room for things like this to happen. Whereas Conservatives are more in that "Oh shiat, I think we are going to win this one!" mindframe.
 
2012-04-28 03:54:44 PM  
Following = grounds to beat some ass? UNSUBSTANTIATED!
Receiving head injuries, including a broken nose while being pinned down as a result of confronting an unarmed black teen = legal right to shoot them dead? SUBSTANTIATED!

Yeah, but it does suck.
 
2012-04-28 03:56:12 PM  

9beers: tirob: Oh, I don't know about that. Given what so far appears on the face of them to be the relatively minor injuries that Zimmerman suffered (no, we won't know their true extent until the medical evidence comes out), I'd say that there is at least an arguable case that Zimmerman committed voluntary manslaughter.

So how many times does a person need to have his head banged off the cement by an attacker before he's allowed to be in fear of great bodily harm?


s2s2s2: tirob:

776.041 does not require an extent of injury qualifier. The aggressor/user of deadly force only has to have no reasonable retreat, and fear of impending "great bodily harm". We KNOW George's nose was broken, the defense handed the prosecution the medical report on live(and recorded) TV.
We have an eyewitness that says almost immediately after viewing Martin on top of Zimmerman, a shot was fired. I can totally see a conviction. Innocent(under the law) people go to prison everyday.


A citation of Florida case law on what consitutes "reasonable fear of grave bodily harm" would help here. Not every busted nose or injury (allegedly) caused by head striking pavement is justification for self-defense in a homicide case. I've said before here that the issue is whether Zimmerman could genuinely have reasonably believed he was about to be crippled/killed or whether he was just irked that he had been on the receiving end of an embarrassing beatdown. I just don't think that enough evidence has been made public to permit us to come to a conclusion about this issue.
 
2012-04-28 03:59:43 PM  

tirob: chewielouie:

Prediction:
1. There will be no plea deal. This is going to trial.
2. Zimmerman will take the stand to give his side of the story.
3. He's gonna be acquitted.
4. Thanks to the racial tension created by Sharpton, Jackson and the NBP, there will be protests and perhaps some rioting.
5. Zimmerman will make a lot of money in a book deal and go into hiding.
6. Martin's family will file wrongful death suit against Zimmerman.


1. I'll buy that.
2. I wouldn't bet my collection of hockey cards that he will. His memory seems not to be particularly good so far.
3. Too soon to say. Let's wait for the prosecution to present its case.
4. Funny how you blame Sharpton, Jackson, et al. for the tension here. I would give Norm Wolfinger, the Seminole County prosecutor who initially decided against prosecuting Zimmerman, some of the credit, too.
5. Citizen's Guide to Shooting Suspicious Characters Under Color of Town Watch Authority.
6. If Zimmerman is acquitted, Florida law would bar Martin's family from suing Zimmerman for wrongful death.


I'm sorry, which law is that?
 
2012-04-28 04:04:54 PM  

tirob: A citation of Florida case law on what consitutes "reasonable fear of grave bodily harm" would help here


"Great Bodily Harm"
"The term `great bodily harm' as used in statute stating when an assault and battery becomes aggravated, is not susceptible of precise definition, but implies an injury of a graver and more serious character than ordinary battery. Herrington v. State, 352 P.2d 931, 933 (Okla. Cir.)."(15)

"Great bodily harm" means bodily injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily injury."(16)

Minn. Stat. § 609.02, Subd. 8. Great bodily harm. "'Great bodily harm' means bodily injury which creates a high probability of death, or which causes serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or other serious bodily harm."(18)

"The loss of a tooth is a permanent loss of the function of a bodily member" and is therefore great bodily harm under Minn. Stat. § 609.221 - Great bodily harm.(19)

Assault victim's injuries, including lacerated liver, laceration on head requiring stitches, bruises, other head injuries causing lapses of consciousness, and long scar running length of upper body, constituted "other serious bodily harm" for purposes of Minn. Stat. 609.02 subd. 8. Great bodily harm.(20)

I know this is for Minnesota. Couldn't find FL definition. However, in the wiki article related to the Zimmerman case, Minnesota law is referenced.

Also included:
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. declared in Brown v. United States (256 U.S. 335, 343 (16 May 1921) a case that upheld the "no duty to retreat" maxim that "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife".[5]
 
2012-04-28 04:05:40 PM  

omeganuepsilon: tirob: 9beers:
Face it dude, there's not a shred of evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime that night.

Oh, I don't know about that. Given what so far appears on the face of them to be the relatively minor injuries that Zimmerman suffered (no, we won't know their true extent until the medical evidence comes out), I'd say that there is at least an arguable case that Zimmerman committed voluntary manslaughter.

Amount of damage =/= murderer

It's the action of getting your head beat upon the sidewalk and nose broken, that's where the reasonable fear comes from.

Pain and the extent of the wounds have little to do with what is reasonable fear. If the action shows no signs of stopping, a reasonable fear could be present.



Very well. Is there any evidence that has come to light so far that Zimmerman was aware that his nose had been broken in the seconds before he shot Martin? Is there any evidence, other than Zimmerman's family's word, that would show that Zimmerman sustained the wounds to the back of his head because Martin beat Zimmerman's head against the pavement? Is there any evidence that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head against the pavement just before Zimmerman shot him? "John," the eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman a short time before Zimmerman fired, has not, to my knowledge, said that Martin was bouncing Zimmerman's head on the concrete when he saw the two fighting.
 
2012-04-28 04:06:26 PM  

tirob: A citation of Florida case law on what consitutes "reasonable fear of grave bodily harm" would help here. Not every busted nose or injury (allegedly) caused by head striking pavement is justification for self-defense in a homicide case.


The ongoing nature of the assault certainly is. Martin didn't punch Zimmerman in the nose and then walk away, he got on top of him and continued the assault. It seems that some of you want to argue that maybe it was a tickle fight and Zimmerman overreacted.
 
2012-04-28 04:07:25 PM  
I should note that one does not have to sustain great bodily harm to be justified in the use of deadly force, only have a reasonable fear of it.

Also
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-04-28 04:08:22 PM  

chewielouie: tirob: chewielouie:

Prediction:
1. There will be no plea deal. This is going to trial.
2. Zimmerman will take the stand to give his side of the story.
3. He's gonna be acquitted.
4. Thanks to the racial tension created by Sharpton, Jackson and the NBP, there will be protests and perhaps some rioting.
5. Zimmerman will make a lot of money in a book deal and go into hiding.
6. Martin's family will file wrongful death suit against Zimmerman.


1. I'll buy that.
2. I wouldn't bet my collection of hockey cards that he will. His memory seems not to be particularly good so far.
3. Too soon to say. Let's wait for the prosecution to present its case.
4. Funny how you blame Sharpton, Jackson, et al. for the tension here. I would give Norm Wolfinger, the Seminole County prosecutor who initially decided against prosecuting Zimmerman, some of the credit, too.
5. Citizen's Guide to Shooting Suspicious Characters Under Color of Town Watch Authority.
6. If Zimmerman is acquitted, Florida law would bar Martin's family from suing Zimmerman for wrongful death.

I'm sorry, which law is that?


Oh I see, the stand your ground statute. That is of course if he is successful in arguing it.
 
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