If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Huffington Post)   Democracy Inaction: Michigan elections board rejects recall petition signed by over 200,000 people because the font size on the petition forms was slightly too small   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 342
    More: Asinine, emergency managers, Michigan, boards of elections, Strict constructionism, petitions, referendums  
•       •       •

5699 clicks; posted to Politics » on 27 Apr 2012 at 10:21 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



342 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-04-27 02:19:58 PM
The left never really cares about fair elections.

Following the rules and making it easy for people to be informed is so out of style for the left.
 
2012-04-27 02:24:33 PM

EWreckedSean: firefly212: EWreckedSean: magusdevil: EWreckedSean: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: EWreckedSean:

Unfortunately when you are dealing with unions math isn't always the issue. There is a reason GM/Ford/Chrysler needed bailing out and Toyota/Honda/Nissan didn't.

How much bailout $$$ did Ford get?

Actually you are correct, Ford didn't need one. My mistake.

Not even close to the biggest mistake in that sentence.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x316]

Neat picture, can you show me source... because I have a hunch that if we're including management in the hourly cost averages, we're not measuring quite what we think we're measuring.

Google Toyota versus GM labor costs, you'll find a million articles on it. It was a huge deal at the time that the major difference between the two companies was labor costs as most Toyota is not unionized.


Each of them sources from 10+ countries, citing unionization is rather disingenuous considering the variance in minimum legally enforceable wages, healthcare requirements, and other factors. Are we talking about in-US manufacturing only, in which case, it's a good time to point out that hardly any of a GM drivetrain comes from the US, the engines are from mexico and most of the rest is from Canada, different skillsets cost different amounts so if company A has skilled labor in the US, whereas company B also has alot of the unskilled jobs in the US instead of Mexico, it's going to inherently drive down the average hourly labor costs. You're citing one, not all that convincing, difference between companies that, aside from producing similar products, have literally millions of differences in terms of how they source labor and products. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that, by the math, you're not supporting your own statement.
 
2012-04-27 02:26:01 PM
Both fonts are bad.
 
2012-04-27 02:26:16 PM

LibertyHiller: firefly212: This is what Michigan gets for appointing a venture capitalist republican governor, and what America can expect if they decide to do the same.

[facepalm.jpg]

First, Snyder was elected.

Second, the only time an emergency manager comes into play is when the city or school district is demonstrably insolvent. It takes many years of avoiding tough decisions for a city to get to that point; Snyder can't just wake up one morning and decide that he's going to appoint an EM.

The whole point of the emergency manager is to avoid any municipal bankruptcies by giving that person effective receivership of the city or district. It's a last resort, which is why Detroit's mayor tried so hard to get a consent agreement instead of an EM. (He pulled it off this time, but I wonder what happens next time, and there will be a next time.)


It is replacing democratically elected leaders with governor-appointed ones... there's no mountain of rationalization that's going to convince me that foregoing democracy is a good thing.
 
2012-04-27 02:27:33 PM

sweetmelissa31: Both fonts are bad.


Vote Courier.
 
2012-04-27 02:28:50 PM

firefly212: EWreckedSean: magusdevil: EWreckedSean: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: EWreckedSean:

Unfortunately when you are dealing with unions math isn't always the issue. There is a reason GM/Ford/Chrysler needed bailing out and Toyota/Honda/Nissan didn't.

How much bailout $$$ did Ford get?

Actually you are correct, Ford didn't need one. My mistake.

Not even close to the biggest mistake in that sentence.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x316]

Neat picture, can you show me source... because I have a hunch that if we're including management in the hourly cost averages, we're not measuring quite what we think we're measuring.


Also those are not just US workers for Toyota. Guess what, Toyota doesn't have a pension plan as old as GM's which is the difference - Legacy costs.

Labor Costs Aren't the Same as Wages Earned

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word 'compensation.' It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour.

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don't show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix

In 2006, at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, workers averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members at Ford, General Motors and Daimler Chrysler


Toyota has less due to it's presence in the US. Also What's the difference? Socialized medicine in Japan?

IFRS and US GAAP USE DIFFERENT MEASUREMENTS.......

100 year-old-company and newer company cannot be compared. Plus, Labor costs are only one input into the costs of production.

Enjoy your Heritage foundation. You keep farking that chicken though.

Fact Check
 
2012-04-27 02:32:28 PM

firefly212: EWreckedSean: firefly212: EWreckedSean: magusdevil: EWreckedSean: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: EWreckedSean:

Unfortunately when you are dealing with unions math isn't always the issue. There is a reason GM/Ford/Chrysler needed bailing out and Toyota/Honda/Nissan didn't.

How much bailout $$$ did Ford get?

Actually you are correct, Ford didn't need one. My mistake.

Not even close to the biggest mistake in that sentence.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x316]

Neat picture, can you show me source... because I have a hunch that if we're including management in the hourly cost averages, we're not measuring quite what we think we're measuring.

Google Toyota versus GM labor costs, you'll find a million articles on it. It was a huge deal at the time that the major difference between the two companies was labor costs as most Toyota is not unionized.

Each of them sources from 10+ countries, citing unionization is rather disingenuous considering the variance in minimum legally enforceable wages, healthcare requirements, and other factors. Are we talking about in-US manufacturing only, in which case, it's a good time to point out that hardly any of a GM drivetrain comes from the US, the engines are from mexico and most of the rest is from Canada, different skillsets cost different amounts so if company A has skilled labor in the US, whereas company B also has alot of the unskilled jobs in the US instead of Mexico, it's going to inherently drive down the average hourly labor costs. You're citing one, not all that convincing, difference between companies that, aside from producing similar products, have literally millions of differences in terms of how they source labor and products. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that, by the math, you're not supporting your own statement.


I'm citing the issue that was a huge sticking point when it came to the bailouts. One of the major conditions of the bailout was that GM and the UAW had to show congress that their new labor agreement significantly reduced labor costs.
 
2012-04-27 02:33:37 PM

EWreckedSean: I'm citing the issue that was a huge sticking point when it came to the bailouts. One of the major conditions of the bailout was that GM and the UAW had to show congress that their new labor agreement significantly reduced labor costs.


And as I already cited the 2007 UAW contract had already done that.
 
2012-04-27 02:34:54 PM
When the fark did the Vogons took over?.
 
2012-04-27 02:36:20 PM

wotthefark: firefly212: EWreckedSean: magusdevil: EWreckedSean: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: EWreckedSean:

Unfortunately when you are dealing with unions math isn't always the issue. There is a reason GM/Ford/Chrysler needed bailing out and Toyota/Honda/Nissan didn't.

How much bailout $$$ did Ford get?

Actually you are correct, Ford didn't need one. My mistake.

Not even close to the biggest mistake in that sentence.

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 400x316]

Neat picture, can you show me source... because I have a hunch that if we're including management in the hourly cost averages, we're not measuring quite what we think we're measuring.

Also those are not just US workers for Toyota. Guess what, Toyota doesn't have a pension plan as old as GM's which is the difference - Legacy costs.

Labor Costs Aren't the Same as Wages Earned

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word 'compensation.' It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour.

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don't show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix

In 2006, at Toyota's Georgetown, Ky., plant, workers averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members at Ford, General Motors and Daimler Chrysler

Toyota has less due to it's presence in the US. Also What's the difference? Socialized medicine in Japan?

IFRS and US GAAP USE DIFFERENT MEASUREMENTS.......

100 year-old-company and newer company cannot be compared. Plus, Labor costs are only one input into the costs of production.

Enjoy your Heritage foundation. You keep farking that chicken though.

Fact Check


Nobody has suggested they are. But thanks for running away with that strawman. Come back when you'd like to argue against an actual points we've made.
 
2012-04-27 02:39:47 PM
I saw a clip from Maddow a while back. Scary things are going on in Michigan. They have a law that says that any new law can't take effect for 90 days after the end of the current session. That's to prevent wacko radicals from doing crazy things. But you can put a law into effect immediately with a 2/3 majority.

The Republicans do not have a 2/3 majority. But virtually every one of the 500+ laws passed this session have gone into effect immediately. How does it happen? They say, "All those in favor raise your hands," and then ten seconds later the speaker of the house says, "This law goes into effect immediately." Because he's able to count several hundred hands in ten seconds. Also, they don't take names on who exactly voted for what.

There is video of this stuff going on. Not exaggerated. It's like 2003 all over again. "We won, you lost, that means we can do whatever we want."
 
2012-04-27 02:40:14 PM

Heron: qorkfiend: uh_clem: And if it goes to the (elected, republican majority) State Supreme Court we all know how those partisan hacks will decide.

Why anybody thought it was a good idea to start electing judges is beyond me.


The idea was that it'd make them accountable, unfortunately it also makes them easier for monied interests to buy and harass out of office.


Judges shouldnt be accountable...
 
2012-04-27 02:42:52 PM
Republican's have been showing their true colors in state legislatures lately. Here I thought the GOP was trying to win Michigan in the election.
 
2012-04-27 02:44:09 PM

Kibbler: I saw a clip from Maddow a while back. Scary things are going on in Michigan. They have a law that says that any new law can't take effect for 90 days after the end of the current session. That's to prevent wacko radicals from doing crazy things. But you can put a law into effect immediately with a 2/3 majority.

The Republicans do not have a 2/3 majority. But virtually every one of the 500+ laws passed this session have gone into effect immediately. How does it happen? They say, "All those in favor raise your hands," and then ten seconds later the speaker of the house says, "This law goes into effect immediately." Because he's able to count several hundred hands in ten seconds. Also, they don't take names on who exactly voted for what.

There is video of this stuff going on. Not exaggerated. It's like 2003 all over again. "We won, you lost, that means we can do whatever we want."


I really hate the "both sides are bad" argument, but I read an article on that subject and it mentions that the Democrats did the same thing while they were in power. In any case, the minority party can demand a roll call so the claim of supermajority can actually be challenged, which is what the Michigan Democrats are starting to do.
 
2012-04-27 03:06:33 PM
I'll start out by saying that I was initially fully in favor of the EFM law. It took a long time of chronic mismanagement for these municipalities to get into such a state that bankruptcy was a stones throw away. Having a single person with broad powers in charge of cleaning up finances seems the best option to right the financial ship and ensure long-term stability through comprehensive restructuring. Bankruptcy alone does not give much pressure for long-term stability by any means as the power of municipal bankruptcy rest largely in the hands of the failed municipality and not the judge or the creditors.

However, the key to my support of the law rests in the fact that it could be overturned by the citizens if desired. The state is the final authority in all of these matters as municipalities aren't sovereign in their own right outside of state law. It isn't my view that representation was being subverted because the citizens could modify the law at the state level. Yesterday's decision is making me re-evaluate my position because it provides proof that the will of the people is not favored disproportionately against such a powerful, open to abuse law.

I'm also swayed by the opinion that the EFM will not correct the underlying political problems of these municipalities. If the argument that mismanagement is the a major component of the dire financial problems (which I think is true but certainly not the only cause), then having someone come in from the outside doesn't solve the underlying political disfunction, and the financial problems will re-emerge. If anything, the EFM law may exacerbate political disfunction by creating an "us versus them" mentality, possibly fueling unhelpful, ineffectual or reactionary leadership or just causing citizens to drop out of the democratic process altogether.

In the end, I'm still mildly in favor the the EFM law if only because of the dire shape and large need of immediate action in financially failed municipalities. But I am much more doubtful that the process isn't being abused or that it'll lead to any long-term stability to the EFM-lead municipalities.
 
2012-04-27 03:12:05 PM

halfof33: protip: I am bisexual, and have been married for ten years.


How is that a protip?
 
2012-04-27 03:15:20 PM

Hetfield: halfof33: protip: I am bisexual, and have been married for ten years.

How is that a protip?



Because he's a pro at taking just the tip?
 
2012-04-27 03:18:37 PM

dracos31: Hetfield: halfof33: protip: I am bisexual, and have been married for ten years.

How is that a protip?


Because he's a pro at taking just the tip?


Protip: I lol'd.
 
2012-04-27 03:19:40 PM
Whoa! Who would of thought politicians would be dicks?!?!

Get it right or STFU and stay home.
 
2012-04-27 03:20:53 PM

dracos31: Hetfield: taking just the tip?


heh, is that how they define bisexuality?
 
2012-04-27 03:21:54 PM
Republicans... They cheat in every conceivable way and then pretend they're the "moral" ones...

fark all Republicans and the people who support them.
 
2012-04-27 03:30:36 PM

JohnnyC: fark all Republicans and the people who support them.


Protip: Maybe that's exactly what they want. I hear some of them are bisexual.
 
2012-04-27 03:32:28 PM

AcademGreen: I'll start out by saying that I was initially fully in favor of the EFM law. It took a long time of chronic mismanagement for these municipalities to get into such a state that bankruptcy was a stones throw away. Having a single person with broad powers in charge of cleaning up finances seems the best option to right the financial ship and ensure long-term stability through comprehensive restructuring. Bankruptcy alone does not give much pressure for long-term stability by any means as the power of municipal bankruptcy rest largely in the hands of the failed municipality and not the judge or the creditors.

However, the key to my support of the law rests in the fact that it could be overturned by the citizens if desired. The state is the final authority in all of these matters as municipalities aren't sovereign in their own right outside of state law. It isn't my view that representation was being subverted because the citizens could modify the law at the state level. Yesterday's decision is making me re-evaluate my position because it provides proof that the will of the people is not favored disproportionately against such a powerful, open to abuse law.

I'm also swayed by the opinion that the EFM will not correct the underlying political problems of these municipalities. If the argument that mismanagement is the a major component of the dire financial problems (which I think is true but certainly not the only cause), then having someone come in from the outside doesn't solve the underlying political disfunction, and the financial problems will re-emerge. If anything, the EFM law may exacerbate political disfunction by creating an "us versus them" mentality, possibly fueling unhelpful, ineffectual or reactionary leadership or just causing citizens to drop out of the democratic process altogether.

In the end, I'm still mildly in favor the the EFM law if only because of the dire shape and large need of immediate action in financially failed municipalities. ...


Is there any limit in the Michigan law as to how long the EFM can run the municipality before the return it to the control of elected officials?

I'm curious, because we have a case here in Illinois where I could see the need for such a thing, but on a very limited time basis.

The woman who was simultaneously Treasurer and Comptroller of the City of Dixon was recently discovered to have embezzled $33,200,000 dollars from the City over the past 6 years. In the last year she took nearly 1/3 of the total city revenues.

Clearly the elected official were not providing proper oversight and financial controls. I could see that removing them and empowering someone to both establish what the current finances are and to create proper procedures to prevent such things could be the appropriate response.

However, I would only support that if the time span before elections for new City officials was of short duration, say 6 months to a year. Certainly an completely open ended duration would be unacceptable.
 
2012-04-27 03:34:12 PM

Hetfield: halfof33: protip: I am bisexual, and have been married for ten years.

How is that a protip?


I'm a pro at just giving the tip.
 
2012-04-27 03:36:27 PM

halfof33: Hetfield: halfof33: protip: I am bisexual, and have been married for ten years.

How is that a protip?

I'm a pro at just giving the tip.


How you doin'?
 
2012-04-27 03:36:55 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: The woman who was simultaneously Treasurer and Comptroller of the City of Dixon was recently discovered to have embezzled $33,200,000 dollars from the City over the past 6 years. In the last year she took nearly 1/3 of the total city revenues.


I don't think that requires an EFM, since there doesn't seem to be a repeated problem unsolvable by the city's government. I assume this woman was removed from office in handcuffs, faces a lengthy stay in prison, and the city will be able to recoup most of the money?

Corrupt politician in Illinois; she's a Democrat, isn't she?
 
2012-04-27 03:43:36 PM

qorkfiend: Philip Francis Queeg: The woman who was simultaneously Treasurer and Comptroller of the City of Dixon was recently discovered to have embezzled $33,200,000 dollars from the City over the past 6 years. In the last year she took nearly 1/3 of the total city revenues.

I don't think that requires an EFM, since there doesn't seem to be a repeated problem unsolvable by the city's government. I assume this woman was removed from office in handcuffs, faces a lengthy stay in prison, and the city will be able to recoup most of the money?

Corrupt politician in Illinois; she's a Democrat, isn't she?


It's unclear how much money is recoverable.

That over $30M disappeared over 6 years in a City who's budget was around $9M without any of the elected officials noticing certainly implies that they were woefully incompetent in their management of the cities finances and that massive structural problem exist.

As for the political party, it's not clear. Most local politicians out side of Chicago don't identify as "Democrat" or Republican" when they run. Dixon is in a rural area and McCain carried the county in 2008, so I wouldn't necessarily assume she's a Democrat.
 
2012-04-27 03:46:02 PM

firefly212: LibertyHiller: firefly212: This is what Michigan gets for appointing a venture capitalist republican governor, and what America can expect if they decide to do the same.

[facepalm.jpg]

First, Snyder was elected.

Second, the only time an emergency manager comes into play is when the city or school district is demonstrably insolvent. It takes many years of avoiding tough decisions for a city to get to that point; Snyder can't just wake up one morning and decide that he's going to appoint an EM.

The whole point of the emergency manager is to avoid any municipal bankruptcies by giving that person effective receivership of the city or district. It's a last resort, which is why Detroit's mayor tried so hard to get a consent agreement instead of an EM. (He pulled it off this time, but I wonder what happens next time, and there will be a next time.)

It is replacing democratically elected leaders with governor-appointed ones... there's no mountain of rationalization that's going to convince me that foregoing democracy is a good thing.


The city councils aren't sent home, and the mayors still sit in their offices. They simply don't have the financial authority they otherwise would have, because they and their predecessors didn't do their job, and kicked the fiscal can down the road instead.

Again, this is a last-resort measure. Looking at where it's been invoked, how can you say otherwise?

This "replacement of democracy" is exactly what would happen under bankruptcy, as we have seen in California. The difference is that the emergency manager reports to the state government, while a bankruptcy receiver would report to a federal court.

Remember, local governments only exist because the state governments create them; the emergency manager is a way of keeping local control and holding bankruptcy at bay, by providing an extra stage between home rule and receivership.

If a local government behaves irresponsibly, the state government is obligated to its citizens to set things right, even if that means limiting or even rescinding those powers. Or are you arguing that New Rome (new window) should still be allowed to run its speed traps?
 
2012-04-27 03:47:24 PM

LibertyHiller: firefly212: LibertyHiller: firefly212: This is what Michigan gets for appointing a venture capitalist republican governor, and what America can expect if they decide to do the same.

[facepalm.jpg]

First, Snyder was elected.

Second, the only time an emergency manager comes into play is when the city or school district is demonstrably insolvent. It takes many years of avoiding tough decisions for a city to get to that point; Snyder can't just wake up one morning and decide that he's going to appoint an EM.

The whole point of the emergency manager is to avoid any municipal bankruptcies by giving that person effective receivership of the city or district. It's a last resort, which is why Detroit's mayor tried so hard to get a consent agreement instead of an EM. (He pulled it off this time, but I wonder what happens next time, and there will be a next time.)

It is replacing democratically elected leaders with governor-appointed ones... there's no mountain of rationalization that's going to convince me that foregoing democracy is a good thing.

The city councils aren't sent home, and the mayors still sit in their offices. They simply don't have the financial authority they otherwise would have, because they and their predecessors didn't do their job, and kicked the fiscal can down the road instead.

Again, this is a last-resort measure. Looking at where it's been invoked, how can you say otherwise?

This "replacement of democracy" is exactly what would happen under bankruptcy, as we have seen in California. The difference is that the emergency manager reports to the state government, while a bankruptcy receiver would report to a federal court.

Remember, local governments only exist because the state governments create them; the emergency manager is a way of keeping local control and holding bankruptcy at bay, by providing an extra stage between home rule and receivership.

If a local government behaves irresponsibly, the state government is obligated to its citizens ...


Nope, still not buying it. It's evil.
 
2012-04-27 03:53:31 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: qorkfiend: Philip Francis Queeg: The woman who was simultaneously Treasurer and Comptroller of the City of Dixon was recently discovered to have embezzled $33,200,000 dollars from the City over the past 6 years. In the last year she took nearly 1/3 of the total city revenues.

I don't think that requires an EFM, since there doesn't seem to be a repeated problem unsolvable by the city's government. I assume this woman was removed from office in handcuffs, faces a lengthy stay in prison, and the city will be able to recoup most of the money?

Corrupt politician in Illinois; she's a Democrat, isn't she?

It's unclear how much money is recoverable.

That over $30M disappeared over 6 years in a City who's budget was around $9M without any of the elected officials noticing certainly implies that they were woefully incompetent in their management of the cities finances and that massive structural problem exist.

As for the political party, it's not clear. Most local politicians out side of Chicago don't identify as "Democrat" or Republican" when they run. Dixon is in a rural area and McCain carried the county in 2008, so I wouldn't necessarily assume she's a Democrat.


Well, I guess it is a lot easier to steal half the farking Treasury when you're in control of both the Treasury and the department that's supposed to oversee the Treasury.

It seems...strange...that they wouldn't identify with either major party, though I suppose in rural areas there's much less of a need for brand recognition.
 
2012-04-27 04:03:55 PM
But the conservative group Citizens for Fiscal Responsibility challenged the petitions' validity, claiming the typeface used in their headings was too small.

This just in! Republicans are assholes.
 
2012-04-27 04:08:42 PM
Here's the Rachel Maddow clip from last night.

'Font size' latest obstacle in struggle for democracy in Michigan

Rev. David Bullock, pastor of the Greater Saint Matthew Baptist Church in Highland Park, President of the Highland Park NAACP and the president of the Detroit chapter of the Rainbow Push Coalition, talks with Rachel Maddow about why replacing democracy in Michigan with "emergency managers" is not a solution to the economic problems facing Michigan cities and towns.

Video pops

skip to about 2:20
 
2012-04-27 04:10:40 PM

EWreckedSean: 1) We don't have oil subsidies. We have oil tax breaks, the majority of which all companies get.


Yeah, every company can deduct their drilling expenses! See, all companies get all the same tax breaks as oil companies.
 
2012-04-27 04:12:51 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Is there any limit in the Michigan law as to how long the EFM can run the municipality before the return it to the control of elected officials?


It's really a matter of convincing people in the state treasury that there's a sustainable plan in place. A town in West Michigan was placed under an emergency manager in 2008 and she served for a year or so before the town was allowed to resume control of its finances, but the state didn't declare an end to the emergency until late 2011. On the other hand, Flint has had two rounds of emergency managers since the turn of the century.

There's also a requirement for swift action on the part of the emergency manager. I don't know what the time frame for a financial and operating plan was before PA 4 took effect, but now, the emergency manager has 45 days to come up with one.
 
2012-04-27 04:17:09 PM

karnal: For some reason, I am reminded of the saying: What's good for the Michigoose is good for the Michigander.



FTFY
Michiganian
 
2012-04-27 04:17:38 PM

Alphax: Nope, still not buying it. It's evil.


First question: Why?

Second question: Would you prefer that the city go straight to bankruptcy? Again, why?
 
2012-04-27 04:20:10 PM

LibertyHiller: Alphax: Nope, still not buying it. It's evil.

First question: Why?

Second question: Would you prefer that the city go straight to bankruptcy? Again, why?


It has nothing to do with money. It's the suspension of all local power. One man, given supreme authority over a town, including the power to dissolve it, and no one able to object.
 
2012-04-27 04:21:06 PM
EWreckedSean:
1) We don't have oil subsidies. We have oil tax breaks, the majority of which all companies get. Why don't we ever talk about Apple Subsidies?


Because last I checked, 4,486 americans didn't die and 33,184 Americans weren't wounded in Iraq over iPads. The oil corporations are making more money than god... why do they need a break?

2) This is a law that allows the government some extra powers to resolve budgetary issues in school districts that are bankrupt. What else would you have them do? This isn't all or most school districts.

One more time: raise taxes to cover costs. California farked that up long ago when it passed prop 13. Used to be local property tax money covered costs for schools in their districts. Then prop 13 passed, and the costs for running the public schools outpaced local tax revenues. The money used to fill in the gaps then came from other taxes through the state capital, Sacramento.

Now we have people paying tax rates from 1990 on a house they bought in 1985 and passed on to their kids because of prop 13, while the houseowner who bought last year just across the street gets prison raped at tax time. And the schools still aren't funded adequately.

tl; dr - Nice things cost money. If you want nice things, you have to pay for them.
 
2012-04-27 04:22:42 PM
I'm going to answer, even though it wasn't addressed to me.

LibertyHiller: Alphax: Nope, still not buying it. It's evil.

First question: Why?


It removes local control of government in favor of a centrally-appointed manager. All proponents of democracy should be wary of that sort of development.

Second question: Would you prefer that the city go straight to bankruptcy? Again, why?

That depends entirely upon the details of the bankruptcy process.
 
2012-04-27 04:35:32 PM

rewind2846: EWreckedSean:
1) We don't have oil subsidies. We have oil tax breaks, the majority of which all companies get. Why don't we ever talk about Apple Subsidies?

Because last I checked, 4,486 americans didn't die and 33,184 Americans weren't wounded in Iraq over iPads. The oil corporations are making more money than god... why do they need a break?

2) This is a law that allows the government some extra powers to resolve budgetary issues in school districts that are bankrupt. What else would you have them do? This isn't all or most school districts.

One more time: raise taxes to cover costs. California farked that up long ago when it passed prop 13. Used to be local property tax money covered costs for schools in their districts. Then prop 13 passed, and the costs for running the public schools outpaced local tax revenues. The money used to fill in the gaps then came from other taxes through the state capital, Sacramento.

Now we have people paying tax rates from 1990 on a house they bought in 1985 and passed on to their kids because of prop 13, while the houseowner who bought last year just across the street gets prison raped at tax time. And the schools still aren't funded adequately.

tl; dr - Nice things cost money. If you want nice things, you have to pay for them.


Do we really want to take a good look at what Apple does do to people?
 
2012-04-27 04:43:56 PM

Weaver95: And then Republicans wonder why nobody votes for them anymore... the cost of votes keeps going up

 
2012-04-27 04:44:28 PM

EWreckedSean: rewind2846: EWreckedSean:
1) We don't have oil subsidies. We have oil tax breaks, the majority of which all companies get. Why don't we ever talk about Apple Subsidies?

Because last I checked, 4,486 americans didn't die and 33,184 Americans weren't wounded in Iraq over iPads. The oil corporations are making more money than god... why do they need a break?

2) This is a law that allows the government some extra powers to resolve budgetary issues in school districts that are bankrupt. What else would you have them do? This isn't all or most school districts.

One more time: raise taxes to cover costs. California farked that up long ago when it passed prop 13. Used to be local property tax money covered costs for schools in their districts. Then prop 13 passed, and the costs for running the public schools outpaced local tax revenues. The money used to fill in the gaps then came from other taxes through the state capital, Sacramento.

Now we have people paying tax rates from 1990 on a house they bought in 1985 and passed on to their kids because of prop 13, while the houseowner who bought last year just across the street gets prison raped at tax time. And the schools still aren't funded adequately.

tl; dr - Nice things cost money. If you want nice things, you have to pay for them.

Do we really want to take a good look at what Apple does do to people?


Apple's only responsibility is to maximize return to investors. Why do you hate capitalism?
 
2012-04-27 04:44:49 PM

EWreckedSean: rewind2846: EWreckedSean:
1) We don't have oil subsidies. We have oil tax breaks, the majority of which all companies get. Why don't we ever talk about Apple Subsidies?

Because last I checked, 4,486 americans didn't die and 33,184 Americans weren't wounded in Iraq over iPads. The oil corporations are making more money than god... why do they need a break?

2) This is a law that allows the government some extra powers to resolve budgetary issues in school districts that are bankrupt. What else would you have them do? This isn't all or most school districts.

One more time: raise taxes to cover costs. California farked that up long ago when it passed prop 13. Used to be local property tax money covered costs for schools in their districts. Then prop 13 passed, and the costs for running the public schools outpaced local tax revenues. The money used to fill in the gaps then came from other taxes through the state capital, Sacramento.

Now we have people paying tax rates from 1990 on a house they bought in 1985 and passed on to their kids because of prop 13, while the houseowner who bought last year just across the street gets prison raped at tax time. And the schools still aren't funded adequately.

tl; dr - Nice things cost money. If you want nice things, you have to pay for them.

Do we really want to take a good look at what Apple does do to people?


I'm game!
 
2012-04-27 04:45:03 PM
Alphax: Nope, still not buying it. It's evil.

LH: First question: Why?

Second question: Would you prefer that the city go straight to bankruptcy? Again, why?

Alphax: It has nothing to do with money. It's the suspension of all local power. One man, given supreme authority over a town, including the power to dissolve it, and no one able to object.


The county courts and commissions still function when a city is under an EFM, so I don't see your point about "all local power." If a city in Michigan is disincorporated, it would presumably revert to a township government, or be absorbed into the surrounding township, either of which has its own inherent powers. Any dissolution or disincorporation must be approved by the governor.

qorkfiend: It removes local control of government in favor of a centrally-appointed manager. All proponents of democracy should be wary of that sort of development.


Agreed, in principle. The reality is that local governments exist at the pleasure of state governments.

That depends entirely upon the details of the bankruptcy process.

I know I'm not an expert on the subject, but having seen Orange County and Vallejo's problems, I also know that I wish California offered its local governments an alternative that was short of actual bankruptcy.
 
2012-04-27 04:51:39 PM

LibertyHiller: Alphax: Nope, still not buying it. It's evil.

LH: First question: Why?

Second question: Would you prefer that the city go straight to bankruptcy? Again, why?

Alphax: It has nothing to do with money. It's the suspension of all local power. One man, given supreme authority over a town, including the power to dissolve it, and no one able to object.

The county courts and commissions still function when a city is under an EFM, so I don't see your point about "all local power." If a city in Michigan is disincorporated, it would presumably revert to a township government, or be absorbed into the surrounding township, either of which has its own inherent powers. Any dissolution or disincorporation must be approved by the governor.


The problem is that the dissolution is not done by the will of the people whose municipality is being dissolved; the dissolution is by decree from a central authority.

qorkfiend: It removes local control of government in favor of a centrally-appointed manager. All proponents of democracy should be wary of that sort of development.

Agreed, in principle. The reality is that local governments exist at the pleasure of state governments.


Of course, but just because it's legal doesn't make it any less repugnant.
 
2012-04-27 04:53:11 PM

EWreckedSean:

tl; dr - Nice things cost money. If you want nice things, you have to pay for them.

Do we really want to take a good look at what Apple does do to people?


Yes yes I know about the huge profit margins Apple makes on their products, the suicides of Chinese workers at FoxConn, the pollution laws they skirt to get things made. But there is one distinction between Apple and EXXON - Apple sells a luxury product, EXXON (or other oil company) sells a vital necessity for the functioning of modern society.
I can go weeks without touching or interacting with anything made by Apple, and do just fine. Can't say the same about oil. Matter of fact I don't own and have never bought anything made by Apple, and if all the computers in my classes weren't Macs I would never deal with Apple stuff at all.

If all Apple products vanished from the earth at midnight tonight, the markets would open just fine tomorrow morning, possibly a little shakier, but they and the rest of the planet would be just peachy. Well, except for the people who held Apple stock. They're screwed.

What would happen if the last drop of oil were used at the same time?
 
2012-04-27 04:57:18 PM
Fuch Republicans
 
2012-04-27 05:03:32 PM

qorkfiend: The problem is that the dissolution is not done by the will of the people whose municipality is being dissolved; the dissolution is by decree from a central authority.


The municipality was created by a central authority in the first place; the power to create is the power to destroy.

qorkfiend: Just because it's legal doesn't make it any less repugnant.

I'm not sure which is more repugnant: taking away a municipality's rights when it's been grossly irresponsible, or the idea that it's okay to let a corrupt or insolvent city government stay in power because "that's what the residents want."
 
2012-04-27 05:11:54 PM

gimmegimme: EWreckedSean: rewind2846: EWreckedSean:
1) We don't have oil subsidies. We have oil tax breaks, the majority of which all companies get. Why don't we ever talk about Apple Subsidies?

Because last I checked, 4,486 americans didn't die and 33,184 Americans weren't wounded in Iraq over iPads. The oil corporations are making more money than god... why do they need a break?

2) This is a law that allows the government some extra powers to resolve budgetary issues in school districts that are bankrupt. What else would you have them do? This isn't all or most school districts.

One more time: raise taxes to cover costs. California farked that up long ago when it passed prop 13. Used to be local property tax money covered costs for schools in their districts. Then prop 13 passed, and the costs for running the public schools outpaced local tax revenues. The money used to fill in the gaps then came from other taxes through the state capital, Sacramento.

Now we have people paying tax rates from 1990 on a house they bought in 1985 and passed on to their kids because of prop 13, while the houseowner who bought last year just across the street gets prison raped at tax time. And the schools still aren't funded adequately.

tl; dr - Nice things cost money. If you want nice things, you have to pay for them.

Do we really want to take a good look at what Apple does do to people?

Apple's only responsibility is to maximize return to investors. Why do you hate capitalism?


Same as oil companies, but Oil companies, which have a way smaller profit margin than Apple, are bad, and should be punished, while Apple that builds those wonderful little toys with slave labor and has more money than most countries should be left alone.
 
2012-04-27 05:12:34 PM

LibertyHiller: I know I'm not an expert on the subject, but having seen Orange County and Vallejo's problems, I also know that I wish California offered its local governments an alternative that was short of actual bankruptcy.


The city council of Vallejo voluntarily and unanimously voted for bankruptcy. They weren't forced into it by anyone, much less the state. They thought it would be a great way to get out from under the obligations the city had entered into. I don't know if they were too stupid to realize that it would probably mean that nobody in their right mind would every buy a muni bond from them again or just didn't care. In the end it was a clusterfark. The bankruptcy itself cost the city eight million dollars.

Orange county farked itself with bad investments. Nobody forced them to gamble with public funds and nobody forced them to declare bankruptcy once they lost.

The CA state government is all kinds of farked up, but the state has little blame in either events.
 
Displayed 50 of 342 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report