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(The New York Times)   Old and busted: Late night debt collection calls. New Hotness: Debt collectors in emergency rooms. Why, yes- there IS a lawsuit already pending   (nytimes.com) divider line 376
    More: Sick, emergency rooms, collection agency, hospital system, American Hospital Association, consumer advocacy, debt settlement, medical debts, health information  
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15605 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2012 at 4:43 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-26 07:48:40 PM

bunner: ...... Which is a lot smarter than a nation that metes out health care in dribs and drabs at a price that offers nothing but fiscal subjugation to the people who need it.


It also kept the lenders from lending making loans that were too risky or that wouldn't be paid by the next Jubilee. Seems to me it would keep them a little bit honest

cookiefleck: No, I'm not saying pay the balance immediately, most companies, if you actually choose to answer the phone, will work with you on a payment plan. Unfortunately, yes, you will have to pay.


So, answer the phone and be on the hook for a payment the size of a mortgage when the job(s) I have can barely keep up with the rent and shoes for the kids, or don't answer the phone. Which one do I not pay when my 15 year old car won't pass inspection because the tires wore out? Hmmm, decisions, decisions.

Oh, right, I should ask for a raise, since that worked so well for the last three former coworkers who tried that one.
Maybe I should have known (hypothetically) I would be hit by a car while I was on the sidewalk, and need to be in the ICU for a week, and went to college so I could make the Big Bucks and saved up?

\House foreclosed because I chose to pay for my wife's meds rather than the mortgage, and the bank said "FU we want ours."
\\They wouldn't take partial payment
\\\Now they have an empty house.
 
2012-04-26 07:49:36 PM

change1211: Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not only demand the time and serv ...


You missed the point of the comparison.

Of course a life is more important than a gallon of milk...that isn't the comparison that I was trying to make.

A hospital is a business...they provide a service. The people that work there are giving a portion of their life to the hospital in exchange for compensation. They are not there to provide services to people for free. But this is what everyone expects them to do. Everyone is arguing that they are entitled to the time and expertise of the doctors and nurses etc. I was simply asking why you are entitled to the time and expertise of another person without any intent or means of compensating them.
 
2012-04-26 07:51:30 PM

Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not only demand the time and services of these ...



The way to avoid such moral conundrums is to approach health care as a basic human right and go from there. Most developed nations do this.
 
2012-04-26 07:52:21 PM

change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.


Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll
 
2012-04-26 07:52:33 PM

insertsnarkyusername: cost me 600 dollars.



Last year I had some health issues-thyroid (still farked) and back (unfixable, mostly). Had an mri and xrays, thyroid scan, whole lotta meds. $25K (insurance paid 14%). Hell of a lot of money for no surgery or such, and it's ruined us.
 
2012-04-26 07:53:12 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: karmaceutical: Just another wonder facet of capitalism. Can't socialize the distribution of health care, no sir. Why yes, it is a great time for insurance companies to be buying up hospitals. Nothing at all perverse about that. They can't make enough money on Wall Street like they did in the old days.

Health care will probably be the next bubble to pop after housing (c.2008)

/ or student loans...


It is pretty much at the breaking point already. It isn't quite like a bubble though. There is no "investment" in health care. No one is going to go around crying that their expensive health insurance plans have plummeted in value.
 
2012-04-26 07:53:18 PM

bunner: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

Yeah, because changing spark plugs is a life and death matter. We get it... Carry on.

[29.media.tumblr.com image 275x210]


So you are entitled to a portion of the life of a man/woman who chooses to be a physician. Got it.
 
2012-04-26 07:53:22 PM

TheDirtyNacho: Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not only demand the time and serv ...


It's a shame the crazy minority ruins things for you there.
 
2012-04-26 07:54:46 PM

Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.

Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll


Ehh, average. 3.5/10.
 
2012-04-26 07:55:06 PM

TheDirtyNacho: Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not only demand the time and serv ...


I agree. But we have not done that, so we are at the point where people feel that they are entitled to the services of doctors and nurses for free.
 
2012-04-26 07:55:56 PM

Silly Jesus: The hospital is a business.


If only there were a way to change that.
 
2012-04-26 07:59:28 PM

change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.

Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll

Ehh, average. 3.5/10.


Ok, now I'm being trolled.

Are you actually arguing that if a business has no income they can still pay their employees?

I have family who works in a private practice that also works out of a hospital. When an indigent patient comes in and they use supplies and manpower my relative has to compensate the hospital for those things. If the person does not pay my relative, then those things are out of pocket.

The hospital is a business. If they provide services without compensation then they are losing money. It takes money coming in to pay employees etc.

Econ 101 is hard.
 
2012-04-26 08:00:08 PM

change1211: TheDirtyNacho: Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not only demand th ...

It's a shame the crazy minority ruins things for you there.



They are becoming infirm due to old age/poor health from a lifetime of ignorance. Great changes will happen over the next decade as a younger and much more progressive generation becomes politically active.

Anyone that can do simple math can see that the present health care system is teetering.
 
2012-04-26 08:01:26 PM

bogey: Silly Jesus: The hospital is a business.

If only there were a way to change that.


1. I'm not opposed to it being changed. But right now it is what it is and a situation exists where people feel that they are entitled to the time and expertise of others.

2. How would you change it? Make it into a charity with private donations? Have the government solely fund it through taxes?
 
2012-04-26 08:01:40 PM

Silly Jesus: But we have not done that, so we are at the point where people feel that they are entitled to the services of doctors and nurses for free.


I wouid wager most people don't really give a shiat if they're going to die, or are extremely ill.

And you know what? I'm okay with people feeling entitled to people's time if they're hurt or sick. If you don't like it, I suggest working to try to change our healthcare system instead of complaining about the poors taking up your precious time.
 
2012-04-26 08:02:34 PM

Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

Yeah, because changing spark plugs is a life and death matter. We get it... Carry on.

[29.media.tumblr.com image 275x210]

So you are entitled to a portion of the life of a man/woman who chooses to be a physician. Got it.


When a person's life is on the line, yes you certainly are. I don't know any doctor worth a damn that wouldn't agree to that. It's called being a human being. I see someone in trouble or needing help, and I'm going to help them to the best of my ability. Save their life, fix them up and then worry about money. Hospitals are one of those things that should not be a business. Same for police, fire, rescue, etc.
 
2012-04-26 08:05:42 PM

Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.

Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll

Ehh, average. 3.5/10.

Ok, now I'm being trolled.

Are you actually arguing that if a business has no income they can still pay their employees?

I have family who works in a private practice that also works out of a hospital. When an indigent patient comes in and they use supplies and manpower my relative has to compensate the hospital for those things. If the person does not pay my relative, then those things are out of pocket.

The hospital is a business. If they provide services without compensation then they are losing money. It takes money coming in to pay employees etc.

Econ 101 is hard.


Cool story bro. Maybe you should campaign for health care reform, the government always pays the bills up here.
 
2012-04-26 08:06:23 PM

TheDirtyNacho: change1211: TheDirtyNacho: Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not on ...


I hope you're right. I'm just happy that my dad isn't becoming one of those "Fark you I got mine" guys, he's in the 1% up here and he's perfectly happy paying his fair share to keep the country running.
 
2012-04-26 08:06:55 PM

Nana's Vibrator: What about late night debt collection calls to your house for people you're related to but live 100 miles away? Or people you're not even related to and don't even know? Because that's what I keep getting. Collectons, telemarketers, spammers, spyware programmers, virus programmers. Give me a chainsaw and put me in a room with each and every one of them. I will win.
/did I miss anyone?


Sue them. Sue them all.

/you will win
 
2012-04-26 08:08:51 PM

Silly Jesus: bogey: Silly Jesus: The hospital is a business.

If only there were a way to change that.

1. I'm not opposed to it being changed. But right now it is what it is and a situation exists where people feel that they are entitled to the time and expertise of others.

2. How would you change it? Make it into a charity with private donations? Have the government solely fund it through taxes?


Pretty much every 1st world country has a better system than us. Take your pick or mix and match the best parts. I doubt it would be any worse than what we have now.
 
2012-04-26 08:09:55 PM

change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.

Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll

Ehh, average. 3.5/10.

Ok, now I'm being trolled.

Are you actually arguing that if a business has no income they can still pay their employees?

I have family who works in a private practice that also works out of a hospital. When an indigent patient comes in and they use supplies and manpower my relative has to compensate the hospital for those things. If the person does not pay my relative, then those things are out of pocket.

The hospital is a business. If they provide services without compensation then they are losing money. It takes money coming in to pay employees etc.

Econ 101 is hard.

Cool story bro. Maybe you should campaign for health care reform, the government taxpayers always pays the bills up here.


But yeah, I'm all for health care reform.
 
2012-04-26 08:10:30 PM

bogey: Silly Jesus: bogey: Silly Jesus: The hospital is a business.

If only there were a way to change that.

1. I'm not opposed to it being changed. But right now it is what it is and a situation exists where people feel that they are entitled to the time and expertise of others.

2. How would you change it? Make it into a charity with private donations? Have the government solely fund it through taxes?

Pretty much every 1st world country has a better system than us. Take your pick or mix and match the best parts. I doubt it would be any worse than what we have now.


Agreed
 
2012-04-26 08:11:25 PM

StanTheMan: change1211: Wow, that is just pathetic. Remind me again why socialized health care is a bad thing for the US?

Because, as with anything else, healthcare gets worse when it becomes an entitlement.


On threshold of the door to the ER, the public servants who get you there or help you get there, the Police, Fire Department, EMTs and Search & Rescue, are looked upon as heroes. Just don't you dare put public servants on the other side of that threshold because that's un-American and those people are swine!
 
2012-04-26 08:12:36 PM
Way to stay classy, healthcare insurers/providers.

Ugh.

;)
 
2012-04-26 08:13:44 PM

Indubitably: Way to stay classy, healthcare insurers/providers.

Ugh.

;)


P.S. You're next for "Shut The farker Down," yo. Fair warning.
 
2012-04-26 08:13:53 PM

Cheesus: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

Yeah, because changing spark plugs is a life and death matter. We get it... Carry on.

[29.media.tumblr.com image 275x210]

So you are entitled to a portion of the life of a man/woman who chooses to be a physician. Got it.

When a person's life is on the line, yes you certainly are. I don't know any doctor worth a damn that wouldn't agree to that. It's called being a human being. I see someone in trouble or needing help, and I'm going to help them to the best of my ability. Save their life, fix them up and then worry about money. Hospitals are one of those things that should not be a business. Same for police, fire, rescue, etc.


1. I am not primarily talking about emergencies.

2. If you are a doctor or nurse etc. and you are being "charitable" with your time and resources, eventually there will be a time when you need to eat. Of course if you happen upon someone on the side of the road, give them your time etc. But if this is your job 12 hours a day and what you rely on for your income, then how can you give of your time in the same way and survive?
 
2012-04-26 08:14:10 PM

Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.

Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll

Ehh, average. 3.5/10.

Ok, now I'm being trolled.

Are you actually arguing that if a business has no income they can still pay their employees?

I have family who works in a private practice that also works out of a hospital. When an indigent patient comes in and they use supplies and manpower my relative has to compensate the hospital for those things. If the person does not pay my relative, then those things are out of pocket.

The hospital is a business. If they provide services without compensation then they are losing money. It takes money coming in to pay employees etc.

Econ 101 is hard.

Cool story bro. Maybe you should campaign for health care reform, the government taxpayers always pays the bills up here.

But yeah, I'm all for health care reform.


Taxpayers pay the government who pays health care providers, a minor detail.

What's the average pay for a doctor in the US?
 
2012-04-26 08:18:30 PM
So, you get sick and they bleed you to death of your cash, and then let you die?


Sound business model, for a very tiny portion of the country - the assholes who own the hospitals.

Why is it that countries that we consider beneath us have better health care and don't charge nearly so much for the same thing?

We are really screwing the pooch on this (and other things).
 
2012-04-26 08:20:21 PM

jbezorg: StanTheMan: change1211: Wow, that is just pathetic. Remind me again why socialized health care is a bad thing for the US?

Because, as with anything else, healthcare gets worse when it becomes an entitlement.

On threshold of the door to the ER, the public servants who get you there or help you get there, the Police, Fire Department, EMTs and Search & Rescue, are looked upon as heroes. Just don't you dare put public servants on the other side of that threshold because that's un-American and those people are swine!


"Help! POLICE?"

"911 Dispatch, what's your emergency?"

"I'm raping myself."

"Can you repeat that, sir?"

"(muffled noises) my! SELF!"

"Why are you doing that sir? Is there any way you can stop for a moment?"

"STOP?"

"Sir."

"HOW CAN I STOP RAPING MYSELF?"

"Sir you need to calm down. You need to get to a room without sharp corners."

"BUT I'M AMERICAN."

"Sir, please--"

"WHAT?"

"Please calm down. I will send an emergency response team to your address, if you give it to me."

"THERE ARE MEXICANS EVERYWHERE."

"Sir? Are you lying on your side?"

"Blargh!"
 
2012-04-26 08:20:23 PM
I just this moment received the statement from a trip I had to the ER a couple weeks ago - severe chest pains that, thankfully, turned out to be a severely spasming pectoral muscle. I was discharged with a script for motrin and finally managed to settle it down with muscle relaxants I had from a recent trip to Europe. $5145 billed to insurance for overzealous diagnostics and worthless treatment. Of the three countries I have lived in long enough to repeatedly assess the health care, the US is a distant last place. Combine that with a completely corrupt credit assessment system where one must constantly run down bogus posts and you get this crazy situation.
 
2012-04-26 08:22:47 PM

change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.

Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll

Ehh, average. 3.5/10.

Ok, now I'm being trolled.

Are you actually arguing that if a business has no income they can still pay their employees?

I have family who works in a private practice that also works out of a hospital. When an indigent patient comes in and they use supplies and manpower my relative has to compensate the hospital for those things. If the person does not pay my relative, then those things are out of pocket.

The hospital is a business. If they provide services without compensation then they are losing money. It takes money coming in to pay employees etc.

Econ 101 is hard.

Cool story bro. Maybe you should campaign for health care reform, the government taxpayers always pays the bills up here.

But yeah, I'm all for health care reform.

Taxpayers pay the government who pays health care providers, a minor detail.

What's the average pay for a doctor in the US?


The average physician salary in the United States is $146,000 - which is undeniably a lot of money at face value.

But it's a lot less when you factor in the overhead costs that doctors incur. And that's not including the medical school debt which, on average, exceeds $150,000.

This clip shows how the take home pay of an average physician today can come out to less than $28 per hour.

Cutting physician salaries will save much less money than most health reformers think. They should best listen to noted Princeton economist Uwe Reinhardt who said as much in this New York Times' letter:

Cutting doctors' take-home pay would not really solve the American cost crisis. The total amount Americans pay their physicians collectively represents only about 20 percent of total national health spending. Of this total, close to half is absorbed by the physicians' practice expenses, including malpractice premiums, but excluding the amortization of college and medical-school debt.

This makes the physicians' collective take-home pay only about 10 percent of total national health spending. If we somehow managed to cut that take-home pay by, say, 20 percent, we would reduce total national health spending by only 2 percent, in return for a wholly demoralized medical profession to which we so often look to save our lives. It strikes me as a poor strategy.

Indeed.
 
2012-04-26 08:23:04 PM

thamike: jbezorg: StanTheMan: change1211: Wow, that is just pathetic. Remind me again why socialized health care is a bad thing for the US?

Because, as with anything else, healthcare gets worse when it becomes an entitlement.

On threshold of the door to the ER, the public servants who get you there or help you get there, the Police, Fire Department, EMTs and Search & Rescue, are looked upon as heroes. Just don't you dare put public servants on the other side of that threshold because that's un-American and those people are swine!

"Help! POLICE?"

"911 Dispatch, what's your emergency?"

"I'm raping myself."

"Can you repeat that, sir?"

"(muffled noises) my! SELF!"

"Why are you doing that sir? Is there any way you can stop for a moment?"

"STOP?"

"Sir."

"HOW CAN I STOP RAPING MYSELF?"

"Sir you need to calm down. You need to get to a room without sharp corners."

"BUT I'M AMERICAN."

"Sir, please--"

"WHAT?"

"Please calm down. I will send an emergency response team to your address, if you give it to me."

"THERE ARE MEXICANS EVERYWHERE."

"Sir? Are you lying on your side?"

"Blargh!"


I have no idea what I just read but it was highly entertaining.
 
2012-04-26 08:23:12 PM

thamike: jbezorg: StanTheMan: change1211: Wow, that is just pathetic. Remind me again why socialized health care is a bad thing for the US?

Because, as with anything else, healthcare gets worse when it becomes an entitlement.

On threshold of the door to the ER, the public servants who get you there or help you get there, the Police, Fire Department, EMTs and Search & Rescue, are looked upon as heroes. Just don't you dare put public servants on the other side of that threshold because that's un-American and those people are swine!

"Help! POLICE?"

"911 Dispatch, what's your emergency?"

"I'm raping myself."

"Can you repeat that, sir?"

"(muffled noises) my! SELF!"

"Why are you doing that sir? Is there any way you can stop for a moment?"

"STOP?"

"Sir."

"HOW CAN I STOP RAPING MYSELF?"

"Sir you need to calm down. You need to get to a room without sharp corners."

"BUT I'M AMERICAN."

"Sir, please--"

"WHAT?"

"Please calm down. I will send an emergency response team to your address, if you give it to me."

"THERE ARE MEXICANS EVERYWHERE."

"Sir? Are you lying on your side?"

"Blargh!"


Goo goo ga joob, man.

;)
 
2012-04-26 08:23:14 PM
I would not like to observe Silly Jesus getting into a nasty car accident where his wallet goes flying whee into the ditch utterly unobserved, and then listen to how nobly he complains about how very crass and rude he is to be making a claim upon the time of the doctor.

No, I would not enjoy that at all.
 
2012-04-26 08:24:02 PM

Silly Jesus: The hospital is a business. If they provide services without compensation then they are losing money. It takes money coming in to pay employees etc.

Econ 101 is hard.


So...all this money I'm paying in taxes for Medicare, where does it go?

The main issue I have is that the insurance company has a deal with the hospital, but when I have a medical issue, the insurance company refuses to pay and the hospital comes after me. The new rules on what insurance companies can't do will be a huge help, although not a complete one.

Here's a lesson you've forgotten from Econ 101. If hospitals aren't getting any money, then they aren't getting any money from the insurance companies. Oh wait, that's not Econ 101, that's basic addition. Maybe you should have taken that first.
 
2012-04-26 08:24:40 PM
For the people that say "pay your bills" is the best way to avoid debt collectors, that isn't true. I have no outstanding debt, my credit cards are all paid in full at the end of the month, all my vehicles and houses are paid for, and I still have a debt collector calling.

/not so CSB.
There is a company called Portfolio Recovery that had called the house numerous times while I was out of town. When I returned, I called back the number they had left for me They claimed that I owed on a Discover card bill from "a while back". I informed them that I was not the Mr. Cautionflag that they were seeking since I never had a Discover card. They asked for my SSN to verify that I was not the person. I asked them to give me the SSN they had and I would let them know if it was mine. Well, that was a standoff. I told them to notify me in writing of the bill I owe and the paperwork showing what I had bought. Well, they still haven't sent me anything but still call at least once a day (sometimes twice from different numbers). Ms. Cautionflag keeps an eye on our credit reports and nothing has shown up there. And thank goodness for caller ID, I just let the phone ring when they call. This has been going on since November, 2011.
 
2012-04-26 08:25:30 PM

Kittypie070: I would not like to observe Silly Jesus getting into a nasty car accident where his wallet goes flying whee into the ditch utterly unobserved, and then listen to how nobly he complains about how very crass and rude he is to be making a claim upon the time of the doctor.

No, I would not enjoy that at all.


Aw, Kittay, my sweet, we love more than we violence, we must.

;)
 
2012-04-26 08:25:32 PM

kidgenius: Elandriel: cman: America: Where its patriotic to not pay one's debts

Will you give it a rest? The average person can't pay a goddamn $70,000 medical bill when they need emergency surgery and are in the ICU for a few days. That doesn't mean they're a deadbeat.

True.

But, there are the cases mentioned where people already have outstanding/past due accounts and are coming back for more care. If I'm the hospital, I would be pissed that I have to give care to this person that has already shown that they can't or won't pay for the thousands of dollars of service I'm about to give them.


There was this pregnant lady in Texas. Two hospitals turned away the the ambulance because they figured she wouldn't pay. Pregnant lady and baby die in the ambulance.

Congress, outraged, pasted a law that any hospital taking Medicare money cannot turn away a patient until stabilized.

Fast forward 30 years when just a doctor's visit costs two days wages (7.25 x 8 - (.15 x (7.25 x 8)) = 48 ish) this even when the visit is to say, yes you have sinus problems here is a Claritin D script or yes the kid is sick, here is your no truancy doctor note, costs 90.
 
2012-04-26 08:27:03 PM

noelwycliffe: I just this moment received the statement from a trip I had to the ER a couple weeks ago - severe chest pains that, thankfully, turned out to be a severely spasming pectoral muscle. I was discharged with a script for motrin and finally managed to settle it down with muscle relaxants I had from a recent trip to Europe. $5145 billed to insurance for overzealous diagnostics and worthless treatment. Of the three countries I have lived in long enough to repeatedly assess the health care, the US is a distant last place. Combine that with a completely corrupt credit assessment system where one must constantly run down bogus posts and you get this crazy situation.


You can thank frivolous malpractice suits for this.

Sniffles? We're doing a damn MRI! ( only slight exaggeration )
 
2012-04-26 08:28:57 PM

Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: change1211: Silly Jesus: bunner: Silly Jesus: I don't know the answer to the quandary.

Well, I can't help but thinking that a return to the notion that greed, flinty avarice and Dickensian cruelty in the name of profit as being something abhorrent would be a good start.

I am not speaking of profit. I am speaking of time. A portion of the life of that Dr. and nurse etc. is being taken away without compensation. That adds up. I don't feel that I am any more entitled to demand that a Dr. provide me his time free of charge than I feel that I would be right to demand that a mechanic provide me his.

So you're saying if someone doesn't pay their bill the doctor/nurse makes no money? Wouldn't the hospital be paying the doctor/nurse their hourly salary?

Troll.

Yes, doctors often make no money after treatment is doled out for free. The hospital is a business. They can't just print money when they are not paid for their services that they then pass on to the employees. I know this personally.

Troll

Ehh, average. 3.5/10.

Ok, now I'm being trolled.

Are you actually arguing that if a business has no income they can still pay their employees?

I have family who works in a private practice that also works out of a hospital. When an indigent patient comes in and they use supplies and manpower my relative has to compensate the hospital for those things. If the person does not pay my relative, then those things are out of pocket.

The hospital is a business. If they provide services without compensation then they are losing money. It takes money coming in to pay employees etc.

Econ 101 is hard.

Cool story bro. Maybe you should campaign for health care reform, the government taxpayers always pays the bills up here.

But yeah, I'm all for health care reform.

Taxpayers pay the government who pays health care providers, a minor detail.

What's the average pay for a doctor in the US?

The aver ...


I'm surprised, that's lower than I would have expected. I guess it really depends on if you go into a specialty. Most GP's make around $150,000 and it trends upwards from there. I'm pretty sure the highest public worker in my province is an ophthalmologist who clears around $1.1 million per year, that seems like it's a bit extreme.
 
2012-04-26 08:28:59 PM

Kittypie070: I would not like to observe Silly Jesus getting into a nasty car accident where his wallet goes flying whee into the ditch utterly unobserved, and then listen to how nobly he complains about how very crass and rude he is to be making a claim upon the time of the doctor.

No, I would not enjoy that at all.


I'm not talking about COD medical care.

Interesting straw man though.

Don't you need to feed your cats or something? You seem to be stalking me recently.
 
2012-04-26 08:30:17 PM
Don't like it? Reform your damn fool healthcare system. Forget insurance, pay for it through taxation. Like just about every other first world nation on the planet has done for years. Or you could continue to believe that any form of socialism is pure evil. Because you guys are right and the rest of the first world is obviously clueless and wrong.
 
2012-04-26 08:32:43 PM

Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not only demand the time and services of these ...


What better way to put the farkers out of business or adjust to the current market demand. At certain prices people are no longer willing to buy goods and services and as it's happened throughout history, they will take what they need to survive.
 
2012-04-26 08:33:31 PM

Silly Jesus: Kittypie070: I would not like to observe Silly Jesus getting into a nasty car accident where his wallet goes flying whee into the ditch utterly unobserved, and then listen to how nobly he complains about how very crass and rude he is to be making a claim upon the time of the doctor.

No, I would not enjoy that at all.

I'm not talking about COD medical care.

Interesting straw man though.

Don't you need to feed your cats or something? You seem to be stalking me recently.


'Cuz yer silly queso Jesus?

Heh.

I crack me up up on at least seven levels here, maybe eight.

Ah.

Love abounds.

;)
 
2012-04-26 08:33:43 PM

GriffXX: Nabb1: I'm betting this is aimed at people who come into the ER for every damned thing under the sun, like a cold or a hangnail, and not people with legitimate emergencies. I'm not advocating the practice, but I can see where they'd have a problem with repeat deadbeat customers abusing the availability of services.

FTA: Collection activities extended from obstetrics to the emergency room. In July 2010, an Accretive manager told staff members at Fairview that they should "get cracking on labor and delivery," since there is a "good chunk to be collected there," according to company e-mails.

That does not sound to me like a crackdown on people abusing the ER.


I don't even practice healthcare law and can tell you why there is a law saying hospitals cannot turn people away.

/irony mine has struck the mother load.
 
2012-04-26 08:36:27 PM

insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: insertsnarkyusername: Silly Jesus: I think that a lot of people don't know where healthcare comes from. They don't see it as a commodity. Yes, the system is broken, but a great deal of people, with emergencies and non-emergencies, don't see the cost of their treatment as a real thing. They think that "oh well, I can't pay" just makes it all go away and the hospital continues on unscathed. You just received a good/service for free, that means that someone just worked for you for free. At some point people can't work for free anymore.

And who is to say that you are entitled to the uncompensated labor of another man/woman to begin with? By virtue of you being born are you automatically entitled to whatever portion of another man/woman's life that it takes to keep you in good health?

On the one hand I can't see turning someone away that truly needs help...
BUT
I also can't see saying "hey, you, come here and give me a portion of your life, I am entitled to it."

Do people truly believe that, by virtue of our very existence, we are entitled to a portion of the life of another?

Last time I went to the ER 5 stitches and and a shot of novocain cost me 600 dollars. This isn't even mentioning the fact that after the injection I waited for 2 hours for a doctor to come back. When she did I was told I could have another but it'd be about another hour and she didn't know when she'd be back. Next time I'm coming in without ID and giving fake info. Start making prices approaching something reasonable and I'll agree with you.

/45 minutes of labor involved, 15 minutes for the doc and 15 minutes each for 2 people who may have or may not have been nurses to grill me about payment info until I started shouting at them to sew my farking hand up and showing them the visible bone.

Generally if someone does not like the price of a good or service, they don't get said good or service. You, on the other hand, have stated that you will not only demand the time and serv ...


Or, alternatively, they could be stopped from taking stealing it.
 
2012-04-26 08:36:50 PM

cman: Do you know what the best way is to avoid a debt collector?

Give a fake name and SSN

/Be careful, you may end up in prison


Or just pay your bills?
 
2012-04-26 08:39:02 PM

Indubitably: Silly Jesus: Kittypie070: I would not like to observe Silly Jesus getting into a nasty car accident where his wallet goes flying whee into the ditch utterly unobserved, and then listen to how nobly he complains about how very crass and rude he is to be making a claim upon the time of the doctor.

No, I would not enjoy that at all.

I'm not talking about COD medical care.

Interesting straw man though.

Don't you need to feed your cats or something? You seem to be stalking me recently.

'Cuz yer silly queso Jesus?

Heh.

I crack me up up on at least seven levels here, maybe eight.

Ah.

Love abounds.

;)


You are...um...strange. I kinda like it, though.

Are you typically inebriated in one way or another when you post or is this the "normal" Indubitably?
 
2012-04-26 08:39:05 PM

change1211: I have no idea what I just read but it was highly entertaining.


Then my job is done.

/have you checked into girlstownespresso.com today?
 
2012-04-26 08:39:40 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: kidgenius: True.

But, there are the cases mentioned where people already have outstanding/past due accounts and are coming back for more care. If I'm the hospital, I would be pissed that I have to give care to this person that has already shown that they can't or won't pay for the thousands of dollars of service I'm about to give them.

Wouldn't be a problem if hospitals weren't for-profit, now would it.


You didn't read the farking article, did you? This was about a NON-PROFIT hospital.
 
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