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(Foreign Policy)   Want world peace? ... better treat your women right   (foreignpolicy.com) divider line 94
    More: Interesting, women's rights, fictional world, Vietnam, status of women, academic disciplines, peace, empirical evidence, George H. W. Bush  
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8145 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2012 at 1:24 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-26 02:27:26 PM

lazyguineapig33: crab66: lazyguineapig33: i disagree. i think that gender inequality is a symptom of a unstable region, not a cause of it. in regions that have political instability, law enforcement is often non existant. in such a situation, if a woman is wronged by someone, it is up to the men of her family or tribe or village to correct/avenge the wrong. often times this corrective action will involve violence and represents a huge risk for the men that must carry it out. Additionally, any violence in such a society has to potential to spiral out of control as opposing groups get revenge for previous acts of revenge.

In such a situation, it makes sense for the village to make sure that its women are not running around getting into trouble. Imagine that the men of your village must avenge your sister if she gets raped while she was hanging around the local warlord's house while alone and dressed provocatively. would you risk your life and the lives of the rest of your village to give your sister the right to whore around as she pleases? Or would you place restrictions on the actions of your sister for the good of everyone? i dont know the answer because ive never lived in a place like that, but as you can see, it is not so cut and dry.

wtf am i reading.....

you are reading something that you have never thought about before because you live in a country with law and order. some of our ideals are simply so completely removed from the realities of life in places like Afghanistan that they are utterly incompatible


QFT.
 
2012-04-26 02:28:29 PM

Fano: Carousel Beast: namatad: Link
great maps of different levels on inequality

cracks me up
People think that the US is such a great place. alas, we have room for improvement

Yeah, we're absolutely horrible, aren't we?

/Stop drinking dude, and get some sleep

I think this might have been trolled in the boobies, since that chart shows the US being on par with Western Europe except for number of female ministers.


I remember reading some survey somewhere that said while Europe leads the US in member of women in government, the US leads Europe in the number of women on corporate boards and upper management.

/so there are more female psychopaths in the US?
 
2012-04-26 02:29:01 PM
Want world peace? Treat your women better.
Want household peace? Treat your woman better.
Want a piece? Treat your woman better.
Warm peas? Treat. Your. Woman. Better.
 
2012-04-26 02:33:56 PM
correlation does not equal causation. Those countries that have a culture and leadership that cares about and protects human dignity and liberty, are better off. Those who promote strife will tend to find lots of ways to create and foster divides - gender being just one among many such divisions.
 
2012-04-26 02:38:08 PM

dang sure: but females are neither more moral, many would say less


You may have missed the article and discussion from April 16's "Women over 30 found to be more 'moral' than men" thread.
 
2012-04-26 02:39:40 PM
Stop talking about correlation & causation if you are to lazy to RTFA.

"The evidence of violence against women is clear. So what does it mean for world peace? Consider the effects of sex-selective abortion and polygyny: Both help create an underclass of young adult men with no stake in society because they will never become heads of households, the marker for manhood in their cultures. It's unsurprising that we see a rise in violent crime, theft, and smuggling, whereby these young men seek to become contenders in the marriage market. But the prevalence of these volatile young males may also contribute to greater success in terrorist recruiting, or even state interest in wars of attrition that will attenuate the ranks of these men. For instance, the sole surviving terrorist from the 2008 Mumbai attacks testified that he was persuaded by his own father to participate in order to raise money for the dower that he and his siblings needed in order to marry. "

They also mention gendercide in China leading to 50 million Chinese men with no hope of finding a spouse. That's going to be fun to watch. Maybe the price for a Chinese sex slave will rise, that or China will need to find a way to kill off the surplus men.
 
2012-04-26 02:42:25 PM
lazyguineapig33: In such a situation, it makes sense for the village to make sure that its women are not running around getting into trouble. Imagine that the men of your village must avenge your sister if she gets raped while she was hanging around the local warlord's house while alone and dressed provocatively. would you risk your life and the lives of the rest of your village to give your sister the right to whore around as she pleases? Or would you place restrictions on the actions of your sister for the good of everyone? i dont know the answer because ive never lived in a place like that, but as you can see, it is not so cut and dry.

crab66: wtf am i reading.....


Classic blame-the-victim excuse. Nothing new.
 
2012-04-26 02:43:58 PM
I'm doubting that most countries want world peace. Domestic peace maybe. But I doubt most of them give a shiat about the rest of the world.

And as others have noted, countries that go out of their way to treat women like shiat generally treat everyone else almost as badly. It's not like those countries are a ride through the wine country for most men, just the ones in power. As usual.
 
2012-04-26 02:45:57 PM

scarmig: Want world peace? Treat your women better.
Want household peace? Treat your woman better.
Want a piece? Treat your woman better.
Warm peas? Treat. Your. Woman. Better.


What about herpes?
 
2012-04-26 02:48:51 PM

devilEther: scarmig: Want world peace? Treat your women better.
Want household peace? Treat your woman better.
Want a piece? Treat your woman better.
Warm peas? Treat. Your. Woman. Better.

What about herpes?


Treat your woman to Valtrex
 
2012-04-26 02:49:58 PM
Crastor would like to have a word with all of you about that male-to-female ratio.

/GoT
 
2012-04-26 02:50:36 PM
Correlation is not causation
 
2012-04-26 02:50:41 PM
lazyguineapig33
In such a situation, it makes sense for the village to make sure that its women are not running around getting into trouble. Imagine that the men of your village must avenge your sister if she gets raped while she was hanging around the local warlord's house while alone and dressed provocatively. would you risk your life and the lives of the rest of your village to give your sister the right to whore around as she pleases? Or would you place restrictions on the actions of your sister for the good of everyone? i dont know the answer because ive never lived in a place like that, but as you can see, it is not so cut and dry.

Right, because if a woman doesn't completely cover herself from head to toe, she's whoring around and asking for it. If men are backwards enough to actually think that, they are obviously the ones in the wrong.

No, no, no, and no some more. No amount of supposed risk to the men who allegedly must avenge a woman who is wronged justifies the way women are treated in places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Burkas? It sure as hell doesn't justify those oppressive instruments of male dominance. Women have to wear a drab, all-concealing robe because otherwise a man might not be able to control his cock? Fark that. Forcing someone to marry their rapist? Seriously? Forbidding women from driving? Ridiculous. Keeping them from getting a decent education? Reprehensible. Not letting them go anywhere without a male family member? Absurd. Absolutely nothing excuses that shiat.

you are reading something that you have never thought about before because you live in a country with law and order. some of our ideals are simply so completely removed from the realities of life in places like Afghanistan that they are utterly incompatible

No. Completely wrong. Stop using cultural relevancy to excuse the brutal oppression of half the population because a bunch of men want to be in charge. Afghanistan is obviously a very different reality than our own. No one would argue that fact, but their treatment of women is still appalling and still wrong. There's no cultural excuse that justifies it. Those who oppress women are despicable assholes. If that means most of the men of some country are despicable assholes, so be it.
 
2012-04-26 02:51:00 PM

lazyguineapig33: you are reading something that you have never thought about before because you live in a country with law and order. some of our ideals are simply so completely removed from the realities of life in places like Afghanistan that they are utterly incompatible


I only WISH it were something I had never thought about before, but no, I've heard this kinda of crap used to justify all sorts of horrible behaviour by claiming it's "realistic" or "natural" or "inevitable" before. Many, many times, in fact.

Your excuses are not new, and you flatter yourself by imagining you're one of the first people to ever come up with them.

Maybe you should try arguing that women are actually better off this way. I don't think anyone's ever tried that excuse before.

Or maybe you want to go back to the "You don't know what it's like to live in a Third-World country" routine. Yeah, that's a good one. Please, please use that argument on me.
 
2012-04-26 02:52:30 PM
ciberido
Classic blame-the-victim excuse. Nothing new.

Your answer is also correct and is much shorter than mine.
 
2012-04-26 02:54:05 PM
@Smelly Pirate Hooker - I encourage you to actually read the article. In the countries discussed, women are clearly treated much worse than men. I think something is really screwed up in any country that punishes a woman who had just been gang raped for getting into a car with a man she was not married to while allowing the gang-rapers to go free ... Just my two cents.
 
2012-04-26 02:55:22 PM

Tiberian.Winter: Stop talking about correlation & causation if you are to lazy to RTFA.


what in that makes you think there isn't a correlation versus causation issue? Those cultures are promoting violence, divide, and strife. Cultures which do the opposite, are better off. Cultures which divide the community and put the population at constant odds with itself, don't do well. Cultures which have close communities and populations that cooperate and are fairly harmonious, do better. Systems which promote unnecessary, irrational, and self-destructive frictions don't do well. Systems which get all the parts and pieces together with minimal friction, run smoothly.

Am I losing you somewhere?

It's not specific to how the women are treated. In pretty much all such places, it's not just a gender struggle; there are also dramatic inefficiencies in the system in many ways unrelated to gender. Someone is suspected of theft, so we cut off their hands - condemning them to a lifetime of begging on a streetcorner? How is that not just a harm and burden on society to have a punishment like that? I could list other examples, but merely quoting more stuff about the harms done to women won't change the "correlation versus causation" issue. Well-treated women don't make for a good society - poorly treated /humans/ make for a bad one, regardless the selection criteria might be for treating someone poorly.
 
2012-04-26 03:00:01 PM

Ron Von Kleinenstein: [ph.cdn.photos.upi.com image 319x354]


Came here for Metta's elbow. Leaving satisified.
 
2012-04-26 03:00:37 PM
Headline is very Metta
 
2012-04-26 03:00:38 PM
Sabine Women, anyone?
 
2012-04-26 03:01:37 PM

SandMann: If I remember right, their are about 50 million missing females in China and 30 million in India.


They aren't missing. They're at the bottom of the Yellow and Ganges rivers.
 
2012-04-26 03:04:54 PM
Soooo lack of sense leads to war.......guess I'm a threat to national security.
 
2012-04-26 03:05:42 PM

IamAwake: Tiberian.Winter: Stop talking about correlation & causation if you are to lazy to RTFA.

what in that makes you think there isn't a correlation versus causation issue? Those cultures are promoting violence, divide, and strife. Cultures which do the opposite, are better off. Cultures which divide the community and put the population at constant odds with itself, don't do well. Cultures which have close communities and populations that cooperate and are fairly harmonious, do better. Systems which promote unnecessary, irrational, and self-destructive frictions don't do well. Systems which get all the parts and pieces together with minimal friction, run smoothly.

Am I losing you somewhere?

It's not specific to how the women are treated. In pretty much all such places, it's not just a gender struggle; there are also dramatic inefficiencies in the system in many ways unrelated to gender. Someone is suspected of theft, so we cut off their hands - condemning them to a lifetime of begging on a streetcorner? How is that not just a harm and burden on society to have a punishment like that? I could list other examples, but merely quoting more stuff about the harms done to women won't change the "correlation versus causation" issue. Well-treated women don't make for a good society - poorly treated /humans/ make for a bad one, regardless the selection criteria might be for treating someone poorly.


I'm getting the impression most people are throwing out the correlation causation to appear smart without taking the time to read. The article is promoting a book where, if these researchers are worth anything, they will lay out the full causal connection. In the meantime, they've laid out the strong correlation and suggested one causal effect. It seems like a teaser.

And since you seem to have simply skimmed that article too -

"In fact, the very best predictor of a state's peacefulness is not its level of wealth, its level of democracy, or its ethno-religious identity; the best predictor of a state's peacefulness is how well its women are treated. "

Women's rights can't be wrapped up into an overall banner of human rights. If you don't see them as people, it won't make a difference to them.
 
2012-04-26 03:06:54 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: Correlation is not causation


Came in to say the same thing. Successful and stable societies respect the civil rights of all, not just one gender or ethnic group.

Also...

It's ironic that authors such as Steven Pinker who claim that the world is becoming much more peaceful have not recognized that violence against women in many countries is, if anything, becoming more prevalent, not less so, and dwarfs the violence produced through war and armed conflict. To say a country is at peace when its women are subject to femicide -- or to ignore violence against women while claiming, as Pinker does, that the world is now more secure -- is simply oxymoronic.

WTF is this? Seriously? Are they seriously saying that tens of millions of people are being killed every decade nowadays? And how do they make the claim that it's "more prevalent" than in the past? CITATION FARKING NEEDED.
 
2012-04-26 03:06:56 PM

genner: Soooo lack of sense leads to war.......guess I'm a threat to national security.


....and now auto-correct has guaranteed this for me.
 
2012-04-26 03:08:37 PM

Tiberian.Winter: They also mention gendercide in China leading to 50 million Chinese men with no hope of finding a spouse. That's going to be fun to watch. Maybe the price for a Chinese sex slave will rise, that or China will need to find a way to kill off the surplus men.


There was also an article in FP recently about how many middle class Chinese women can't find a man because their demands are too high.

So, the life-partner market doesn't seem to adjust itself through some secret hand mechanism.

/hurr durr secret hand
 
2012-04-26 03:26:02 PM

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Are they seriously saying that tens of millions of people are being killed every decade nowadays? And how do they make the claim that it's "more prevalent" than in the past? CITATION FARKING NEEDED.


Did you miss the part where Valerie M. Hudson (the author of the article) mentioned she co-authored an entire book on the subject? If you need citations, maybe their book on the subject might be a good place to look.

But if you want to hear the other side's argument, here's Pinker, whose book The Better Angels of Our Nature Professor Hudson specifically said she disagrees with.

Is Human Violence On The Wane?

/Next time, please do your own Googling
 
2012-04-26 03:28:29 PM

Seth'n'Spectrum: So, the life-partner market doesn't seem to adjust itself through some secret hand mechanism.


Well, that's because China is Communist, obviously. If they had Capitalism like the USA does, then the Invisible Hand of the Marketplace would fix everything!
 
2012-04-26 03:35:27 PM
So, the Republicans' war on women is a threat to national security. I can't believe I'm the first one to point this out.

I read awhile back that extreme Islam has made the men in those countries neurotic, largely because of how they view women as less than human, and sex as... the way they view sex.

/tried to find article.
//sorry I failed.
 
2012-04-26 04:13:01 PM
You want a piece? Then want peace

Link
 
Skr
2012-04-26 04:28:16 PM
Oddly enough I've come in contact with some guys in power that seem to have all of the sex drive of a eunuch and yet are still raging assholes bent on dominating their little plot of land on the turd ball. While sex is an awesome Panacea for most, some men just want to watch the world burn.
 
2012-04-26 04:56:19 PM

Tiberian.Winter: And since you seem to have simply skimmed that article too -

"In fact, the very best predictor of a state's peacefulness is not its level of wealth, its level of democracy, or its ethno-religious identity; the best predictor of a state's peacefulness is how well its women are treated. "

Women's rights can't be wrapped up into an overall banner of human rights. If you don't see them as people, it won't make a difference to them.


lemme repeat a part of that for you - "the best predictor of a state's peacefulness is how well its women are treated."

Not cause, not driving force...predictor. X is very strongly, and very often, associated with Y. They are, as it were, correlated. Poor and rich countries alike can shiat on their citizens. Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, and Jewish people can all do about as good a job killing themselves and others. If you're going to start treating women better just to have a more peaceful society, you're not really going to start treating women better; you should be doing it because of the intrinsic value that each human, each life, has - independent of gender. If you can't offer that consideration due, faking it for your own gain isn't going to help them - they may see a short-term benefit, but that will disappear very rapidly because the motivation was not right. The point is women - and men - and children - and those who make mistakes - and those who have less money - so on, so forth - all deserve a certain level of respect and dignity, and should be given that respect and dignity for themselves, not for what a false show of concern will give to you.

Thus the reason it's not causation.

It's correlation. The two things are associated. Every system in the world works better if it isn't working poorly, by definition. By definition, if you introduce disharmony and violence into a system (be that a society, a bag of marbles, computers in a server room, a bunch of happy photons drinking coronas on a microscopic beach, etc) then...that system has disharmony and violence. Whether women are treated relatively equal and all we do is instead own brown people (ie - slavery) or brown people aren't owned but we make women wear crazy all-covering outfits, whatever disharmony and discord we're introducing into the system by definition adds disharmony and discord into the system. And generally speaking, for most of today's societies, that discord is in place by design to distract the general populous from the ruling elite's rape of the world's resources and peoples. Something like that is the cause - something is prompting the society to have that behaviour. Removing one aspect of the behaviour isn't going to change anything. Removing the cause itself will.

All this is assuming, of course, that you're not sexist - that you don't believe that women are just superior to men, and the actual cause of the problems is that we're oppressing the people who could fix the problems. Or worse, that you think women never cause any problems, and that if we were to oppress the men we could cause them to be unable to start the problems in the first place, thus never needing to "fix" anything. If either of those is your thinking, then...well...dunno what to say.

Otherwise, it's nothing more than correlation. Blatant correlation, at that - article even says "predictor."
 
2012-04-26 05:20:12 PM

Tiberian.Winter: Women's rights can't be wrapped up into an overall banner of human rights. If you don't see them as people, it won't make a difference to them.


one more note - you're very wrong here. Women's right can and must be wrapped up into an overall banner of human rights. If you don't see them as people, you aren't respecting human rights. If I'm saying that puppies should all be loved without looking at whether they're a boy or girl puppy, and you're saying that doesn't make a difference because some people don't think of girl puppies as puppies at all, then...the requirement of "all puppies should be loved" isn't being met. You, then, are the one putting gender on it - I'm seeing that what should be happening isn't happening, you're wanting to twist it into some sort of reason to hate me simply because (I'm assuming...) I was born with different genitalia than you. We should be able to just agree that the situation is bad and needs to be fixed, but you're stuck on the gender thinking that is somehow a causitive thing - it's not a cause, it's an effect. The problem itself has to be addressed, and by magnifying the arbitrary divide you're really just making it worse. If it hadn't been that thing, it would have been another thing...such as a strange violent divide between protestants and catholics, or some other arbitrary thing.

Note also that other types of divides tend to fall along lines that are being excluded from consideration here. Pakistan versus India, for instance - I argue it should be looked at as a global society, with strike occuring based on fairly arbitrary boundaries. We here in the US are already well beyond being unhealthy at the arbitrary democrats/republican thing, throwing lots of hate on people who really want about the same thing (generally - given other things being equal, such as neighbors who are of differing parties). the people in charge don't care, it's all just a facade - yet we're happy to throw the hate around and allow ourselves to be distracted.
 
2012-04-26 05:24:52 PM
And suddenly republicans actions recently make sense.
 
2012-04-26 06:13:17 PM

Akuinnen: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us? p age=0,0

When more than 90 percent of ever-married women in Egypt -- including my mother and all but one of her six sisters -- have had their genitals cut in the name of modesty, then surely we must all blaspheme.

:(


I cannot close my legs tight enough whenever I read about that. Just the though of that mutilation horrifies me.
 
2012-04-26 06:14:21 PM
Paging Aristophanes and Lysistrata...
 
2012-04-26 06:28:19 PM

scarmig: Want world peace? Treat your women better.
Want household peace? Treat your woman better.
Want a piece? Treat your woman better.
Warm peas? Treat. Your. Woman. Better.


Want whirled peas? Treat your blender better.
 
2012-04-26 06:34:00 PM

ciberido: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: Are they seriously saying that tens of millions of people are being killed every decade nowadays? And how do they make the claim that it's "more prevalent" than in the past? CITATION FARKING NEEDED.

Did you miss the part where Valerie M. Hudson (the author of the article) mentioned she co-authored an entire book on the subject? If you need citations, maybe their book on the subject might be a good place to look.

But if you want to hear the other side's argument, here's Pinker, whose book The Better Angels of Our Nature Professor Hudson specifically said she disagrees with.

Is Human Violence On The Wane?

/Next time, please do your own Googling


Another source that indicates that murder rates have fallen drastically over the past several hundred years:

Link

I've never seen any actual data that indicates that murder rates (in the long term) have risen. I've seen a lot of uninformed opinions, though . . .
 
2012-04-26 06:56:46 PM
I was listening to news radio yesterday and they said World Peace got suspended for elbowing someone in the face.

I didn't realize that they were talking sports so I thought they were getting philosophically weird.
 
2012-04-26 07:01:36 PM
So, the White Man's Burden is really to teach the brown man not to beat his wife?
 
2012-04-26 07:06:07 PM
I can't find which specific post it was that linked to it, but the article on China's leftover women is quite interesting. Thanks for linking it!
 
2012-04-26 07:14:29 PM

Ron Von Kleinenstein: [ph.cdn.photos.upi.com image 319x354]


you sonofa...

i'mma post it anyway

static8.businessinsider.com
 
2012-04-26 08:17:24 PM

Skr: Oddly enough I've come in contact with some guys in power that seem to have all of the sex drive of a eunuch and yet are still raging assholes bent on dominating their little plot of land on the turd ball.


The classic Freudian answer to that would be that what you observe is their sublimated sex drive.
 
2012-04-26 10:16:48 PM
My simple rule?

If it floats, flies, or fornicates, rent it.
 
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