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(Daily Kos)   Paul Ryan: My budget is based on Catholic values. Bishops: No, it's based on Ayn Rand - now go read this Catholic Social Doctrine and try again   (dailykos.com) divider line 319
    More: Amusing, Paul Ryan, Catholic Social, Ayn Rand, Catholics, Catholic Faith, rich get richer, suede, Health Care, International  
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6815 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Apr 2012 at 8:32 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-25 09:46:07 PM

WombatControl: Once again, it's the left that gets Catholic Social Doctrine right.


Yes. Yes we do.
 
2012-04-25 09:46:49 PM

WombatControl: do not reflect the actual teachings of the Catholic Church.


Actually they do. Everyone is expected at all times to help those in need. Also you may want to read the rest of those encyclicals you linked to.
 
2012-04-25 09:48:19 PM

Falcc: Bhasayate: But Ayn Rand was Catholic, so it's all good.

You're thinking of Hitler. The other crazy person with a weird accent and a stupid haircut that hated Communists and worked to erase their Jewish heritage so that Nazis didn't take note of it. It's okay to get them confused.


I came to point out that Ryan was just looking for a final solution to the poor problem, but see that my work was half done.
 
2012-04-25 09:49:00 PM
Paul Ryan is the sort of person that makes Spiro Agnew look like an upright guy. Paul Ryan is the sort of person that makes Huey Long look like a honest, fair politician. Boss Tweed? Nice guy, up front about what he wanted, unlike Paul Ryan.

Best part is that none of these men looked like a washed up child star from a sub-par TV sitcom in the '60s.

Paul Ryan can, frankly, fark himself.
 
2012-04-25 09:49:53 PM

WhyteRaven74: WombatControl: do not reflect the actual teachings of the Catholic Church.

Actually they do. Everyone is expected at all times to help those in need. Also you may want to read the rest of those encyclicals you linked to.


Butbutbut they don't support his position!
 
2012-04-25 09:51:50 PM

Magorn: This is one of the finest summaries of Catholic Social doctrine


Wow, I'd like to know what someone like Ryan would think about workers "treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons" being put on the same level as abortion.

It's not like he can say the Pope was wrong, or anything.
 
2012-04-25 09:54:42 PM

WhyteRaven74: WombatControl: do not reflect the actual teachings of the Catholic Church.

Actually they do. Everyone is expected at all times to help those in need. Also you may want to read the rest of those encyclicals you linked to.


I have.

And you miss the point. Everyone is expected to help others. Personally. Just saying "well, I support higher taxes on the rich and the welfare state, so I'm good to go" is the height of hypocrisy. The obligation to help others is personal, and is not satisfied by merely supporting the state.

Again, if I'm so wrong, I provided links to both encyclicals - feel free to quote the passages that support your position.
 
2012-04-25 09:54:44 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Butbutbut they don't support his position!


well yeah, but that's not my problem ;)

Zulu_as_Kono: It's not like he can say the Pope was wrong, or anything.


Part of being a Catholic is you're supposed to abide by the teachings of the church including the content of encyclicals. So yeah, someone should ask him how he considers himself a good Catholic when he stands opposed to the teachings that as a Catholic he's expected to adhere to. To say nothing of standing opposed to the teachings of Jesus.
 
2012-04-25 09:56:30 PM

mahuika: Someone saying that Paul Ryan's budget is not based on his religious leanings is the nicest thing anyone could say about Paul Ryan's budget.


Ah, but they are. Paul may claim to be a Catholic, but like so many Evangelicals, he worships Supply-Side Jesus.
 
2012-04-25 09:56:46 PM

WombatControl: Everyone is expected to help others. Personally


Everyone is expected to have compassion and empathy for all others at all times. And you are expected to help others by those means you personally have. Ergo, if you're a legislator you don't cut off assistance to those in need. Nor do you demonize those in need, or minorities, or women etc etc. Basically what Catholic teachings say is that if you're a CEO and take a bonus for yourself while cutting bonuses for your employees, you fail. If you're a legislator and allow people to go without help, you fail.
 
2012-04-25 09:57:53 PM

WombatControl: If you want to know the real position of the Church, don't trust a group of politicized bishops...


I remember when you said the same thing when those same bishops came out against Obama's health plan.

Oh wait, no I don't.
 
2012-04-25 09:58:19 PM
Wait a minute...now Kos wants us to respect something that reads, in part, "The first right presented in this list is the right to life, from conception to its natural end, which is the condition for the exercise of all other rights and, in particular, implies the illicitness of every form of procured abortion and of euthanasia?"

This must be one of those "cunning plans."
 
2012-04-25 09:59:16 PM

eudemonist: Wait a minute...now Kos wants us to respect something that reads, in part, "The first right presented in this list is the right to life, from conception to its natural end, which is the condition for the exercise of all other rights and, in particular, implies the illicitness of every form of procured abortion and of euthanasia?"

This must be one of those "cunning plans."


No, they're just calling bullshiat on Paul when he says he respects it.
 
2012-04-25 09:59:34 PM
Catholic values? Yeah, you mean like castrating young boys in Holland, and maybe elsewhere; stolen babies in Spain, and maybe elsewhere; the Magdalene laundries in Ireland, and maybe elsewhere; Mt. Cashel, in Newfoundland; *residential* schools; every conceivable form of sexual abuse, the world around. And, lest we forget, the endless rumors and reports of the mayhem, murder, money laundering, and ties to the mafia that constantly swirl around the Vatican. When the likes of JP Morgan closes a bank account, as they've done with the Vatican, you don't have to be told that the joint stinks to high heaven and beyond. The action speaks for itself. Catholic values, my *ass. Oooops, I really should be careful, there, shouldn't I?
 
2012-04-25 10:01:21 PM

edmo: "But Jesus wants you to be rich"

[elbourne.org image 260x260]


Approves!

img.thoughts.com
 
2012-04-25 10:01:22 PM

smeegle: Erix: inevitable outcome of fitness, which is the accumulation of lots of money.

How is the accumulation of wealth a single measure of being fittest?


Don't ask me, ask Darwin. He's the one that first noted it. During his studies of the Galapagos finches, he observed that some finches (at least among the Large Ground Finch Geospiza magnirostris) were able to gather larger piles of seeds (or "wealth" as he called it) by virtue of their more robust beaks. In the rudimentary finch "society" these successful seed gatherers came out on top, and were typically more able to find a mate and produce more offspring. Additionally, the larger the finch's seed bank, the more deferential other finches were to their calls, essentially equating "wealth" with "speech", as was keenly noted by Justice Kennedy in his majority opinion on the Citizens United case.

So, the size of the beak was the true phenotypic expression of fitness, but it was really the amount of wealth the the birds gathered (its extended phenotype) that determined reproductive success, and which was much easier to measure for an amateur naturalist. That's why social Darwinism works so well.
 
2012-04-25 10:03:11 PM
The Ayn Rand reading retards thinking Paul Ryan is a true Catholic forgot this part as well:

42. Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?

The answer is obviously complex. If by "capitalism" is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a "business economy", "market economy" or simply "free economy". But if by "capitalism" is meant a system in which freedom in the economic sector is not circumscribed within a strong juridical framework which places it at the service of human freedom in its totality, and which sees it as a particular aspect of that freedom, the core of which is ethical and religious, then the reply is certainly negative.


Link
 
2012-04-25 10:03:35 PM

Erix: . He's the one that first noted it.


Darwin explicitly stated that what goes for nature does not go for human institutions. Darwin thought social darwinism was a complete sham.
 
2012-04-25 10:05:53 PM
More:

48. These general observations also apply to the role of the State in the economic sector. Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principle task of the State is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labours and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. The absence of stability, together with the corruption of public officials and the spread of improper sources of growing rich and of easy profits deriving from illegal or purely speculative activities, constitutes one of the chief obstacles to development and to the economic order.
 
2012-04-25 10:06:52 PM
Wait. What? I'm actually LIKING Catholics right now? And Catholic BISHOPS, no less??!

How the F did this happen?
 
2012-04-25 10:07:38 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: Father Reese: "Survival of the fittest may be okay for Social Darwinists but not for followers of the gospel of compassion and love."

Well said. Though I still maintain that the budget shouldn't be based on ANY religion. Well, maybe Voodoo.


There is nothing wrong with setting a budget in line with any set of religious values simple due to the fact that the values are religious. The question will always be, what specific values whether they happen to be aligned with any religion or not. Your comment makes it sound as if being aligned with religious values is a disqualification, as opposed to an irrelevant correlation.
 
2012-04-25 10:09:13 PM

TV's Vinnie: Wait. What? I'm actually LIKING Catholics right now? And Catholic BISHOPS, no less??!

How the F did this happen?


Even a busted clock is right twice each day.

/Catholic
 
2012-04-25 10:09:55 PM

Elandriel: Is this the thread where Catholicism is OK now? I can't keep up with which Catholics are evil bastards hell-bent on destroying the world and remaking it in their image, which ones are rape raping, which ones are imposing theocratic rule on America, and which ones are nice kind loving people who actually think with their farking brains and not only with what is written in a two thousand year old book.


I was thinking the same thing myself (see above post), but then I realized something......

Lex Luthor is bad, but at least he's not really, REALLY evil, like Darkseid.

Which goes to show that Ryan is such a flaming monstrous asswipe that even Nazi sympathizing child-molesters look good compared to him.
 
2012-04-25 10:10:23 PM

WhyteRaven74: Erix: . He's the one that first noted it.

Darwin explicitly stated that what goes for nature does not go for human institutions. Darwin thought social darwinism was a complete sham.


Well, yeah. He hated the name Darwinism and instead referred to it as Wallacism, particularly when applying it in a social context, even though he developed most of the theory himself. His experiences with raising his pigeons showed him that if you gave a pigeon too much feed, it would lose the desire to gather food for itself. Instead, he allowed his pigeons to fight over a limited amount of grain, leading to a far more cohesive flock of stronger birds, albeit with the minor, unfortunate side effect of some poor birds starving to death.
 
2012-04-25 10:11:57 PM

WombatControl: Once again, it's the left that gets Catholic Social Doctrine right.


Yeah, Charlie Pierce has this well-covered: Link
 
2012-04-25 10:13:20 PM

Erix: WhyteRaven74: Erix: . He's the one that first noted it.

Darwin explicitly stated that what goes for nature does not go for human institutions. Darwin thought social darwinism was a complete sham.

Well, yeah. He hated the name Darwinism and instead referred to it as Wallacism, particularly when applying it in a social context, even though he developed most of the theory himself. His experiences with raising his pigeons showed him that if you gave a pigeon too much feed, it would lose the desire to gather food for itself. Instead, he allowed his pigeons to fight over a limited amount of grain, leading to a far more cohesive flock of stronger birds, albeit with the minor, unfortunate side effect of some poor birds starving to death.


Seriously? A true Social Darwinist on Fark? Heil!
 
2012-04-25 10:16:59 PM
What would a budget "based on Catholic values" even look like? A trust fund set aside to pay the victims' families to keep them quiet?
 
2012-04-25 10:17:10 PM
The Catholic Church isn't too fond of individualism as well as collectivism.

46. Accordingly, twin rocks of shipwreck must be carefully avoided. For, as one is wrecked upon, or comes close to, what is known as "individualism" by denying or minimizing the social and public character of the right of property, so by rejecting or minimizing the private and individual character of this same right, one inevitably runs into "collectivism" or at least closely approaches its tenets. Unless this is kept in mind, one is swept from his course upon the shoals of that moral, juridical, and social modernism which We denounced in the Encyclical issued at the beginning of Our Pontificate.[29] And, in particular, let those realize this who, in their desire for innovation, do not scruple to reproach the Church with infamous calumnies, as if she had allowed to creep into the teachings of her theologians a pagan concept of ownership which must be completely replaced by another that they with amazing ignorance call "Christian."
 
2012-04-25 10:18:25 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: What would a budget "based on Catholic values" even look like?


Imagine no one having to beg for money for food or sleeping on the street or lacking medical care. That would be the most basic parts of it.
 
2012-04-25 10:19:29 PM
I hate to Godwin the thread (too late!) but I wonder if this is how it felt in the 30s in Germany? I mean, all these people who think they're fighting the good fight and supporting the god-fearing, patriotic leaders who will save them, but who later come to realize they've been unwittingly supporting fascism and empowering wealthy men with no ethics who will eventually bring ruin upon their nation.

While the proles still argue about Republic vs Democrat, or Liberal vs Conservative, the plutocrats and true villains are shaking hands, making deals, and carving up our nation like a cherry pie.

And guess what, kiddies! Us poor folks who make under $500,000 a year? We get the pits.
 
2012-04-25 10:19:51 PM

WhyteRaven74: LouDobbsAwaaaay: What would a budget "based on Catholic values" even look like?

Imagine no one having to beg for money for food or sleeping on the street or lacking medical care. That would be the most basic parts of it.


Of course you would still have to be a slave...

/Ok, I suppose we are talking about the Jesus part.
 
2012-04-25 10:21:25 PM
I'm absolutely shocked that a teabagging republican would pull shiat out of his ass.
 
2012-04-25 10:22:11 PM

Ned Stark: both sides are bad?


Yes, both sides are bad, but in this case, one side is correct,
 
2012-04-25 10:22:18 PM

Lord_Baull: I'm absolutely shocked that a teabagging republican would pull shiat out of his ass.


I am just surprised he didn't stick it up his nose.
 
2012-04-25 10:23:12 PM

Sabyen91: Erix: WhyteRaven74: Erix: . He's the one that first noted it.

Darwin explicitly stated that what goes for nature does not go for human institutions. Darwin thought social darwinism was a complete sham.

Well, yeah. He hated the name Darwinism and instead referred to it as Wallacism, particularly when applying it in a social context, even though he developed most of the theory himself. His experiences with raising his pigeons showed him that if you gave a pigeon too much feed, it would lose the desire to gather food for itself. Instead, he allowed his pigeons to fight over a limited amount of grain, leading to a far more cohesive flock of stronger birds, albeit with the minor, unfortunate side effect of some poor birds starving to death.

Seriously? A true Social Darwinist on Fark? Heil!


Honestly, I've been grading really bad student papers all day, and I'm so bored that I've stooped to posting ridiculous shiat on Fark to entertain myself.
 
2012-04-25 10:24:26 PM

WhyteRaven74: LouDobbsAwaaaay: What would a budget "based on Catholic values" even look like?

Imagine no one having to beg for money for food or sleeping on the street or lacking medical care. That would be the most basic parts of it.


I don't know what Catholicism you are talking about. I'm talking about the one that exists in the real world; the one that in the Middle Ages built palaces of gold and its leaders lived in unimaginable luxury while people starved to death in the streets and died of the Plague.
 
2012-04-25 10:25:22 PM

Erix: Sabyen91: Erix: WhyteRaven74: Erix: . He's the one that first noted it.

Darwin explicitly stated that what goes for nature does not go for human institutions. Darwin thought social darwinism was a complete sham.

Well, yeah. He hated the name Darwinism and instead referred to it as Wallacism, particularly when applying it in a social context, even though he developed most of the theory himself. His experiences with raising his pigeons showed him that if you gave a pigeon too much feed, it would lose the desire to gather food for itself. Instead, he allowed his pigeons to fight over a limited amount of grain, leading to a far more cohesive flock of stronger birds, albeit with the minor, unfortunate side effect of some poor birds starving to death.

Seriously? A true Social Darwinist on Fark? Heil!

Honestly, I've been grading really bad student papers all day, and I'm so bored that I've stooped to posting ridiculous shiat on Fark to entertain myself.


You need a teacher's aide, dude. I hear they work for pennies. Of course we would have to give that person food stamps...or not (if Ryan has his way).
 
2012-04-25 10:27:48 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: . I'm talking about the one that exists in the real world; the


The one in the real world isn't the one that was around back then. The encyclicals that make up the church's stance on social policy don't go back all that far, in part because how things are now is not how they've been for very long and also because the people running the place actually tend to care about things unlike in the past. In the past you could pretty well buy the election to be pope, that's how you ended up with a Borgia as pope and a de Medici as pope. Neither was remotely qualified, but they could grease the right palms and be pope. Once such things disappeared things started changing.
 
2012-04-25 10:31:11 PM
Ayn Rand the tool of tools...Also the fool of fools. Check out Greenspans relationship with her...Madame RW Wacko Supreme. Madame Cloudcookooville!
 
2012-04-25 10:31:12 PM

Sabyen91:
You need a teacher's aide, dude. I hear they work for pennies. Of course we would have to give that person food stamps...or not (if Ryan has his way).


Ha.. I AM the teacher's aide, aka grad student. We work for pennies and decent health care.
 
2012-04-25 10:32:27 PM

WhyteRaven74: The one in the real world isn't the one that was around back then. The encyclicals that make up the church's stance on social policy don't go back all that far, in part because how things are now is not how they've been for very long and also because the people running the place actually tend to care about things unlike in the past.


The Church's official statement on the cause of child-rape in the Church since the 1950s: Gay Al Qaeda and time-traveling hippies.

They care about what they've always cared about: considering themselves to be blameless for all acts of evil they commit, and money.
 
2012-04-25 10:33:15 PM

Erix: Sabyen91:
You need a teacher's aide, dude. I hear they work for pennies. Of course we would have to give that person food stamps...or not (if Ryan has his way).

Ha.. I AM the teacher's aide, aka grad student. We work for pennies and decent health care.


Hah, a TA! You guys get all the good jobs! Lucky ducky.
 
2012-04-25 10:33:57 PM
Why are all of these right wingers suddenly all trying to suck the Catholic Church's dick like an alter boy plied with communion wine?
 
2012-04-25 10:34:00 PM
The only thing funnier than Paul Ryan being called on his bullshiat is how far his fortunes have fallen. Over 16 months ago this gollum-like loser was positioning himself to be the Republican nominee. He was all ready and set to give the rebuttal to the State of the Union address and finally make it big time. He was actually cunning enough to realize that maybe the next Republican nominee should start early and get on top of a Republican 'win' (that just happened to shiat itself when coming close to gaining the Senate).

Then three things happened: the Medicare bill was revealed to be a way of getting rid of the program and Ryan took credit for it, Bachmann upstaged him during the 'Teabagger Response' where she looked like she was about to behead a soldier, and then the Republicans figured that Donald Trump would be a better candidate than Paul Ryan. And now that stupid shiathead is begging to be second fiddle to the Romney campaign by doing everything short of sticking his nose up a Book of Mormon.

The fact that Paul Ryan has failed at even trying to attempt to gain power and now has to resort to asking for the VP slot in a doomed campaign tells you everything you need to know about the man. The fact that he looks like his mother still dresses him. The way he shoots off the Republican rhetoric in the most half-assed way. The way he looks like Kirk Cameron pushing another crocoduck and selling it with all the glee of a door-to-door salesman five days away from hanging himself with his unclean socks.

Paul Ryan isn't smart enough to realize Romney is a sinking ship. What the fark does anybody think he has to add to the national discourse if he's this pathetic?
 
2012-04-25 10:34:53 PM

ongbok: Why are all of these right wingers suddenly all trying to suck the Catholic Church's dick like an alter boy plied with communion wine?


Because the Mormon is going to be a hard sell to those seeking ideological purity?
 
2012-04-25 10:39:38 PM
Faith is a very shiatty economic policy.
 
2012-04-25 10:39:40 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: Father Reese: "Survival of the fittest may be okay for Social Darwinists but not for followers of the gospel of compassion and love."

Well said. Though I still maintain that the budget shouldn't be based on ANY religion. Well, maybe Voodoo.


I'm trying to figure out how you even CREATE a budget based on religion.

"And on the fourth day, we shall allocate education and social services programs!"
 
2012-04-25 10:40:14 PM
Most Catholics are pretty decent folks, or at least on the same level as most other people.

Most Catholic politicians seem to think that the best idea the church ever had was the Inquisition.

//still trying to figure out how Newt and Santorum could claim to be Catholic with a straight face.
 
2012-04-25 11:05:48 PM

Hobodeluxe: Ed Finnerty: You have a better chance of fitting a camel through the eye of a needle than finding a Republican who can recite the Golden Rule.

He who has the Gold makes the rules


images4.fanpop.com
 
2012-04-25 11:10:57 PM

WhyteRaven74: WombatControl: Everyone is expected to help others. Personally

Everyone is expected to have compassion and empathy for all others at all times. And you are expected to help others by those means you personally have. Ergo, if you're a legislator you don't cut off assistance to those in need. Nor do you demonize those in need, or minorities, or women etc etc. Basically what Catholic teachings say is that if you're a CEO and take a bonus for yourself while cutting bonuses for your employees, you fail. If you're a legislator and allow people to go without help, you fail.


And again:

By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. One thinks of the condition of refugees, immigrants, the elderly, the sick, and all those in circumstances which call for assistance, such as drug abusers: all these people can be helped effectively only by those who offer them genuine fraternal support, in addition to the necessary care.


Opposition to the welfare state isn't just consistent with Catholic social thought, it's necessitated by it. The welfare state is not in accord with charity - it is a system which systematically robs individuals of their human agency and subordinates them to the state in a way that is not acceptable to Catholic social teachings.

Rep. Ryan's budget does not cut programs to the poor out of spite, it does it because many of these programs no longer serve the poor, but entrap them into a culture of dependency and subservience.

To argue that it is moral to create a system of permanent welfare entitlement that can never be challenged, never be changed, never be cut is an idea that is not only incorrect as a matter of Catholic social teaching, but common sense and logic also.
 
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