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(Salon)   Academia is supposed to permit and encourage the challenging of one's assumptions and beliefs... Unless we're talking about Israel   (salon.com ) divider line
    More: Sad, UC Santa Cruz, Peter Beinart, Depaul University, formal organization, American Jews, academic senate  
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3565 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Apr 2012 at 2:08 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-25 02:43:57 PM  
Tenure is not a blank check to do whatever you want. Keep your politics to yourself like the rest of us do at work.

/want open discussion?
//come scream at us on Fark!
 
2012-04-25 02:44:28 PM  

Dr Dreidel: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.


Dubai.
 
2012-04-25 02:45:00 PM  
Why do you think Israeli politicians spend so much time visiting the US? It's the only place they can go in the entire world where they are worshiped and where they don't have to worry about receiving any kind of criticism. Hell, Netanyahu treated President Obama more disrespectfully than he would ever treat even a member of the opposition party in Israel.
 
2012-04-25 02:46:02 PM  

The Dog Ate My Homework: Why do you think Israeli politicians spend so much time visiting the US? It's the only place they can go in the entire world where they are worshiped and where they don't have to worry about receiving any kind of criticism. Hell, Netanyahu treated President Obama more disrespectfully than he would ever treat even a member of the opposition party in Israel.


Actually, Germany has us beat on that aspect.
 
2012-04-25 02:46:59 PM  
It's against the law in California to use the name "University of California" in propaganda endorsing any kind of boycott. What this professor did could be construed as breaking the law. That's something to think about.
 
2012-04-25 02:48:15 PM  

GAT_00: Do not question the glory of Israel citizen.

give me doughnuts: Middle-eastern ideals like religious freedom?

Israel does not embrace religious freedom. They aren't Saudi Arabia, but they aren't exactly tolerant towards a certain religion either.


Scientologists?

/While not perfect, they seem to treat muslim citizens fairly well.
 
2012-04-25 02:48:26 PM  

404 page not found: Dr Dreidel: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.

Dubai.


No...they're not fans of Judaism.
 
2012-04-25 02:49:16 PM  

SkinnyHead: It's against the law in California to use the name "University of California" in propaganda endorsing any kind of boycott. What this professor did could be construed as breaking the law. That's something to think about.


[deepthoughtswithskinnyhead.jpg]
 
2012-04-25 02:49:25 PM  

SkinnyHead: It's against the law in California to use the name "University of California" in propaganda endorsing any kind of boycott. What this professor did could be construed as breaking the law. That's something to think about.


No offense. But I treat the ambulance chasers on TV more seriously with legal advice than you.

Because even they haven't proven themselves to be wrong time after time again.
 
2012-04-25 02:49:40 PM  

Dr Dreidel: GAT_00: Do not question the glory of Israel citizen.

give me doughnuts: Middle-eastern ideals like religious freedom?

Israel does not embrace religious freedom. They aren't Saudi Arabia, but they aren't exactly tolerant towards a certain religion either.

Ever been to one of the many mosques in Israel? Ever been to a synagogue anywhere else in the MidEast? (Full disclosure: I've done the former, not the latter.)

I'll grant that CULTURALLY, Israel has growing up to do. Issues of religious freedom, though - I'll take up that radio guy's challenge: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.


Abu Dhabi, perhaps?
 
2012-04-25 02:50:25 PM  

Mrtraveler01: 404 page not found: Dr Dreidel: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.

Dubai.

No...they're not fans of Judaism.


But is Dubai more tolerant towards religion than Jerusalem? That was the good Doctor's wager.
 
2012-04-25 02:50:46 PM  

CommieTaoist: You can be critical of Israel's policies without being antisemitic


Nope. They managed to make Judaism both a race as well as a religion so if you question Israel you question the Jews and if you question the Jews, you're a racist. And they co-opted the whole Semitic people so you're also anti-Semitic. So basically if you question our policies in supporting Israel's policies you're worse than Hitler.

And you'll reap the ire of the Anti-Defamation League. They co-opted all defamation to mean "Jewish defamation" as well.
 
2012-04-25 02:52:53 PM  
Israel is the girlfriend in the bar that won't stop mouthing off to the biggest guy there and then threatens to break up with you if you don't fight him.
 
2012-04-25 02:53:11 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Dr Dreidel: West Jerusalem has been able to pull itself up by its sandal-straps (kind of) - why not Gaza? I wager it has to do with 65-70+% illiteracy rates there, not helped by all the schools NOT built by the PA/Hamas over the last 20 years.

Did you mean East Jerusalem?


How the hell can they build all these schools when concrete and wood for construction is prohibited from being brought into Gaza D'oh!? Link
 
2012-04-25 02:53:46 PM  

Mrtraveler01: No offense. But I treat the ambulance chasers on TV more seriously with legal advice than you.


I have a GED in psychology and I say he's farking nuts.
 
2012-04-25 02:53:55 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Dr Dreidel: West Jerusalem has been able to pull itself up by its sandal-straps (kind of) - why not Gaza? I wager it has to do with 65-70+% illiteracy rates there, not helped by all the schools NOT built by the PA/Hamas over the last 20 years.

Did you mean East Jerusalem?


I did.

// dyslexics of the world untie!
 
2012-04-25 02:54:04 PM  

tnpir: Skinnyhead and Bevets in the same thread.

Which one of you dolts divided by zero?


It is an Israel thread.

When Tatsuma inevitably shows up, that is when division by zero has occurred.

/no disrepect to any involved
 
2012-04-25 02:55:19 PM  
Dr Dreidel:Ugh. I wish I could wave a magic wand and undo the bad blood from the last 1500 years. Erasing history's blackboard (and the constant drum beat of "evening the score" from everyone) would go a long wa ...

This. Many times over.

/Also...no Tatsuma yet? Really?
 
2012-04-25 02:56:09 PM  

Weigard: Israel is the girlfriend in the bar that won't stop mouthing off to the biggest guy there and then threatens to break up with you if you don't fight him.


Well said. That's an excellent metaphor.
 
2012-04-25 02:57:07 PM  

beta_plus: GAT_00: Do not question the glory of Israel citizen.

give me doughnuts: Middle-eastern ideals like religious freedom?

Israel does not embrace religious freedom. They aren't Saudi Arabia, but they aren't exactly tolerant towards a certain religion either.

Scientologists?

/While not perfect, they seem to treat muslim citizens fairly well.


They don't mind them as long as they don't get any more larger or grow more power and influence in Israel.

As Bibi pointed out in 2003: Link

Speaking at the Herzliya Conference on security, Netanyahu said Israel had already freed itself from control of almost all Palestinian Arabs. He said he could not foresee a future in which "any sane Israeli" could try to make Palestinians either Israeli citizens or "enslaved subjects." The Palestinians would under all circumstances rule themselves and administer their own affairs, he said.

"If there is a demographic problem, and there is, it is with the Israeli Arabs who will remain Israeli citizens," he said. The Declaration of Independence said Israel should be a Jewish and democratic state, but to ensure the Jewish character was not engulfed by demography, it was necessary to ensure a Jewish majority, he said.

If Israel's Arabs become well integrated and reach 35-40 percent of the population, there will no longer be a Jewish state but a bi-national one, he said. If Arabs remain at 20 percent but relations are tense and violent, this will also harm the state's democratic fabric. "Therefore a policy is needed that will balance the two."


/Part of the reason why I think Bibi is a dick
//Like I needed another reason to
 
2012-04-25 02:58:17 PM  

Dr Dreidel: I'll grant that CULTURALLY, Israel has growing up to do. Issues of religious freedom, though - I'll take up that radio guy's challenge: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.


what are we counting as middle east? usually Turkey is said to be mid-east and they're at least as tolerant, if not more so (i guess for that matter how are we defining tolerant?)
 
2012-04-25 02:58:52 PM  
Sigh....

Yet more A-Holes who can't figure out that disagreeing with Israeli policy is NOT THE SAME as being Anti Semitic.

If I don't like my jobs going to India, am I racist? If I complain about the Catholic Church, am I bashing Italy and suggesting that all Italians need to be discriminated against?

What a load of horseshiat, I get the whole 'Not promoting political agendas in class' thing, but that's just their excuse, the student got butthurt about Israel, and the school bent over backwards to figure out a way to bust this guy on it.
 
2012-04-25 03:04:47 PM  

Mikey1969: Sigh....

Yet more A-Holes who can't figure out that disagreeing with Israeli policy is NOT THE SAME as being Anti Semitic.

If I don't like my jobs going to India, am I racist? If I complain about the Catholic Church, am I bashing Italy and suggesting that all Italians need to be discriminated against?

What a load of horseshiat, I get the whole 'Not promoting political agendas in class' thing, but that's just their excuse, the student got butthurt about Israel, and the school bent over backwards to figure out a way to bust this guy on it.


I think it has to do with the current witch hunt of racism in America today. For example, many who are anti-illegal immigration are branded as racists, many who do not support Obama are accused of racism, and many in the OWS who are against big bankers are seen as anti-semitic.

I think it has become a moral panic in our American culture.
 
2012-04-25 03:11:58 PM  

quatchi: adamgreeney: cameroncrazy1984: Cagey B: SkinnyHead: A "cultural and academic boycott" does not advance academic freedom, it works against it.

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.

Israel: Number 1 with sock puppets and bots.

We're still missing one.

Don't worry, Mein/Tats will be in soon I'm sure.

It's depressing how unable we are to extradite ourselves from Israel. The relationship does nothing for us anymore.

The fact that the US has consistently vetoed any attempts to use the power of the UN to help resolve the situation in Israel/Palestine during the multi-decade occupation there is the single largest reason why the situation has not been resolved to anyone's satisfaction yet.

That situation does not ultimately help either Israel or the US, it just erodes global confidence in the US while isolating Israel even further among it's neighbors and the international community.

Talking about Israel?

Would love to but the existence of so much very real anti-semitism in the world makes it hard to approach the subject without being an anti-semite.


That's exactly my point. We need to be willing to sanction them just as we would any other country. We would have no trouble doing that to Europe, Japan, etc if it needed to happen. Why not them?
 
2012-04-25 03:12:04 PM  

Mrtraveler01: beta_plus: GAT_00: Do not question the glory of Israel citizen.

give me doughnuts: Middle-eastern ideals like religious freedom?

Israel does not embrace religious freedom. They aren't Saudi Arabia, but they aren't exactly tolerant towards a certain religion either.

Scientologists?

/While not perfect, they seem to treat muslim citizens fairly well.

They don't mind them as long as they don't get any more larger or grow more power and influence in Israel.

As Bibi pointed out in 2003: Link

Speaking at the Herzliya Conference on security, Netanyahu said Israel had already freed itself from control of almost all Palestinian Arabs. He said he could not foresee a future in which "any sane Israeli" could try to make Palestinians either Israeli citizens or "enslaved subjects." The Palestinians would under all circumstances rule themselves and administer their own affairs, he said.

"If there is a demographic problem, and there is, it is with the Israeli Arabs who will remain Israeli citizens," he said. The Declaration of Independence said Israel should be a Jewish and democratic state, but to ensure the Jewish character was not engulfed by demography, it was necessary to ensure a Jewish majority, he said.

If Israel's Arabs become well integrated and reach 35-40 percent of the population, there will no longer be a Jewish state but a bi-national one, he said. If Arabs remain at 20 percent but relations are tense and violent, this will also harm the state's democratic fabric. "Therefore a policy is needed that will balance the two."

/Part of the reason why I think Bibi is a dick
//Like I needed another reason to


Maybe if some other countries stopped threatening Israel's existence, they would lighten up about this.

/funny that Israel and the United States are the only two countries that ever make you upset
 
2012-04-25 03:14:36 PM  
The Daily Bruin: Some professors are having a fairly standard academic fight over the appropriateness of linking modern political materials to undergraduate coursework. The exchanges have been largely respectful, if somewhat passive aggressive, and the professor with the coursework in question has addressed the concerns of his detractors, also relatively respectfully. Beyond some snotty academic equivalents of letters to the editor addressed to organizations that don't have much to do with anything, no official actions have been taken by either side.

Salon, upon reading TDB article: HOW DARE ACADEMICS TRY TO SUPPRESS FREE SPEECH!?!?!?!?!? ITS RACISM, I TELLS YA.

... seriously, Salon, WTF? I know you sometimes go over the deep end, but it's usually sort of a slow drift away from a starting premise that's at least somewhat reasonable, not this diving straight into failure shiat.


404 page not found: Mrtraveler01: 404 page not found: Dr Dreidel: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.

Dubai.

No...they're not fans of Judaism.

But is Dubai more tolerant towards religion than Jerusalem? That was the good Doctor's wager.


Possibly. There aren't many countries that try to specifically deny a religion the right of citizenship by marriage. The Law of Return is not just blatantly but explicitly discriminatory on religious grounds.

More egregiously, to quote from Wikipedia's article on Arab citizens of Israel: "In 2001, Human Rights Watch described government-run Arab schools ... The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system. In 2005, the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education said that the Israeli government spent an average of $192 a year on Arab students compared to $1,100 for Jewish students."

Does Dubai practice similar religiously-targeted discrimination against its Christian of Jewish children and immigrants? I could see immigrants, possibly, but the muslim-majority nations of the middle east aren't big on shafting large portions of their population on education for any reason, they kinda want to join the modern world for the most part.
 
2012-04-25 03:14:54 PM  
Like the Wall Street Journal, there was a time when Playboy was a periodical of note.
 
2012-04-25 03:15:47 PM  
Whoops, wrong thread!
 
2012-04-25 03:17:02 PM  

beta_plus: Maybe if some other countries stopped threatening Israel's existence, they would lighten up about this.


itsallmaya.com
 
2012-04-25 03:19:00 PM  

beta_plus: /funny that Israel and the United States are the only two countries that ever make you upset


Every country has it's ills. I like Israel, just not it's leadership.

/You suck at this
 
2012-04-25 03:19:27 PM  

tlchwi02: Dr Dreidel: I'll grant that CULTURALLY, Israel has growing up to do. Issues of religious freedom, though - I'll take up that radio guy's challenge: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.

what are we counting as middle east? usually Turkey is said to be mid-east and they're at least as tolerant, if not more so (i guess for that matter how are we defining tolerant?)


Definitions are a bit sticky. Turkey usually counts as MidEast, but I hear tell they're moving away from the culture's secular history of the last 100 years or so.

// I don't know how the radio guy specified it, but let's go with freedom to worship protected at the highest levels of law - like the US' 1st Amendment
 
2012-04-25 03:19:38 PM  

Dr Dreidel:

I'll grant that CULTURALLY, Israel has growing up to do. Issues of religious freedom, though - I'll take up that radio guy's challenge: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.


the Lebanese government setup isn't bad - the President, Speaker and Prime Minister all have to be from different ethnic groups (one Sunni, one Shia, one Christian) and the seats in their parliament are split 50:50 between te Christian and Muslim groups to ensure the Muslim majority (60:40 iirc) in the country doesnt completely dominate the government. They also do a good job of providing representation to minority ethnic groups, like the Druze and less populous Christian groups.
 
2012-04-25 03:28:04 PM  

Jim_Callahan: The Law of Return is not just blatantly but explicitly discriminatory on religious grounds.


Hmm... I thought it was on ethnic grounds and not religious grounds, but apparently you can't immigrate if you practice a religion that is not Judaism even if you are ethnically Jewish. But I believe you could immigrate if you are an atheist, since it doesn't involve practicing religion. Not that I would want to live there.
 
2012-04-25 03:28:19 PM  

Dr Dreidel: I'll grant that CULTURALLY, Israel has growing up to do. Issues of religious freedom, though - I'll take up that radio guy's challenge: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.


That's like being the prettiest girl on the WNBA team...
 
2012-04-25 03:32:03 PM  
University likely giving minimal support to keep a paying student by taking no actual action other than have some paper trail of speaking with the professor. The main concern seems to be his association with the boycott, but this is such a nonissue in terms of the politicizing some professors have done. Outcome will be explicit mention of the link as a resource and simple disclaimer about not seeing the use of the link as endorsing any position.
 
2012-04-25 03:34:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Definitions are a bit sticky. Turkey usually counts as MidEast, but I hear tell they're moving away from the culture's secular history of the last 100 years or so.

// I don't know how the radio guy specified it, but let's go with freedom to worship protected at the highest levels of law - like the US' 1st Amendment


Well then i'd say Turkey qualified. Religious tolerance and freedom of conscience is guranteed in their constitution. At the least, it is equal to Isreal.
 
2012-04-25 03:36:17 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Does Dubai practice similar religiously-targeted discrimination against its Christian of Jewish children and immigrants? I could see immigrants, possibly, but the muslim-majority nations of the middle east aren't big on shafting large portions of their population on education for any reason, they kinda want to join the modern world for the most part.

Dubai does not give out citizenships to anyone (maybe there are some exceptions to the rule). Even through marriage. Children born to non-emerati couples will never get citizenship or permanent residency. There is no permanent residency - your visa is tied to your employer and if you lose your job you have a relatively short time to find a new one or GTFO. (note- at time people have been given visas if they buy a house and have enough $$$, but the law in Dubai changes on a whim and does so often). You can't change employers without permission of your existing employer, who can easily prevent you from legally working in the country after you leave their employment. The court system is absurdly slanted depending on ethnic groups the parties are from - have the misfortune to be rear ended at a red light by a speeding Emerati and the courts will find you at fault. And that's without even starting on the huge issues surrounding the labor imported from India, Pakistan and te Philippines and the myriad of human rights abuses surrounding it.

It's not exactly a beacon of ethnic and religious tolerance.
 
2012-04-25 03:51:09 PM  

vernonFL: I support a boycott of Israeli goods, fortunately I don't regularly buy many Israeli products to begin with.

We all use Israeli software and probably don't know it.


They export great hummus and speakers too. The Morel brand is considered one of the best in the audiophile crowd.
 
2012-04-25 03:51:50 PM  
There are plenty of ridiculous examples of pro-Israel entities beating up on free speech under the guise of "defending Jews vs. Anti-Semitism". This isn't really one of them and not worth much angst.

The guy included as part of his course curriculum a link to a petition for which he himself is one of the sponsors.

That would annoy me as a student even if I agreed with the cause. It's 9/10 of the way to formally advocating a political position as part of the course-work, which is a pretty big no-no in most serious schools (I don't include Bob Jones or its ilk as serious).
 
2012-04-25 03:52:55 PM  
Calling out Israel for being a bit dickish in their foreign policy does not equal antisemitism or any other form of animus. Nor, does calling for a boycott in protest of said policies. This being fark, I'm sure we all already know thiss but don't care.
 
2012-04-25 03:59:35 PM  
... as well as a complaint from a student who dropped the course...

Transcript of complaint and photo of student:
images2.wikia.nocookie.net

"It was just so dry in that cleeasroom."
 
2012-04-25 04:00:10 PM  
I really don't understand why Israel gets special treatment from the United States.

What's the purpose of it?

Why should I care about Israel as much as I care about my own country? And, why are there American citizens who seem to care more about Israel than about the United States?
 
2012-04-25 04:17:10 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Dr Dreidel: I'll grant that CULTURALLY, Israel has growing up to do. Issues of religious freedom, though - I'll take up that radio guy's challenge: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.

That's like being the prettiest girl on the WNBA team...


Oh, I know. The facts are that everyone likes to get up in Israel's shiat for how they treat their citizens - which is fair.

However, claiming that Israel is unique for this mistreatment, when they're by far not the worst offender in the region (and, as I argue, probably top of the heap in the freedom vein), seems...weird.

Though, in the sense that "they should know better", I totally agree.
 
2012-04-25 04:18:43 PM  
 
2012-04-25 04:26:21 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: inb4 Tats threadshiat


I wish I could ignore him for just those threads.

He's actually kind of engaging in threads on other topics.

But god help you if you're critical of Israel, or say something that can be construed as supportive of Iran.
 
2012-04-25 04:30:43 PM  

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.


Um, genius, this had jack shiat to do with Israel. This was because a professor assigned a class his pet project as part of the curriculum.

Also, you're perfectly welcome to argue whatever you like with your biology professor, but he's perfectly welcome to ignore you, argue back, or even throw you out of a classroom.
 
2012-04-25 04:39:49 PM  

tlchwi02: Dr Dreidel: Definitions are a bit sticky. Turkey usually counts as MidEast, but I hear tell they're moving away from the culture's secular history of the last 100 years or so.

// I don't know how the radio guy specified it, but let's go with freedom to worship protected at the highest levels of law - like the US' 1st Amendment

Well then i'd say Turkey qualified. Religious tolerance and freedom of conscience is guranteed in their constitution. At the least, it is equal to Isreal.


Turkey seems like it would qualify, along with possibly Lebanon and (depending on how literally you want to take the question) Iraq. Iraq does have very strong religious freedom codified, and if there are militia groups exerting huge religiously-based pressures on people, they are being opposed by the government.

For purposes of research: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/index.htm
 
2012-04-25 04:40:12 PM  
There's a good reason why tenure exists at the University level. This is that reason.

/FSM only knows why tenure exists prior to the University level
 
2012-04-25 04:42:14 PM  

machoprogrammer: dahmers love zombie: OK, here's the deal. Yes, stifling speech/academic freedom is A Bad Thing. However, it's done all the time. There are a metric shiatpile of things that I'm not going to be overtly advocating in my teaching. If we're keeping with the Jewish/Israel topic, how about Holocaust Denial? Other areas as well. Being an anti-Muslim activist? How about being a flat-earth geologist (hat tip to the BevBot)? Pro-pedophilia? You don't in fact have complete freedom to advocate any/all opinions/positions as an academic. However, the guy in TFA is an Associate Professor, so he most likely has tenure, and I'd be VERY opposed to any calls to revoke his tenure for his politico-religious views, since that's the whole logic behind tenure in the first place. And he didn't base his grading policies upon taking a particular political position, which isn't unknown in some areas (and evil, in my opinion). If he continues to be controversial, he probably won't make Full anytime soon, if ever, and he likely won't get a lot of important positions with the university either (which is the only way you get significant raises if you stay at one place -- getting appointed as a Dean or some such). So he will be "punished" in a sense. And if he messes with students by grading them more harshly for advocating a pro-Israel stance, then by all means revoke his tenure and be done with him. But having one (voluntary) assignment linked to a website with a controversial position is hardly worthy of notice in academe.

And no, I'm not suggesting that any/all of those alternative "problematic views" are on a par with or in any way equivalent to "criticism of Israel".

Would you feel the same way if he had posted a link advocating banning gay marriage or banning interracial marriage?



The difference of course, the link he provided is relevant to the class he is teaching. A link advocating or banning marriage is not relevant at all. Try to be more careful with your analogies.
 
2012-04-25 04:59:23 PM  

Diogenes: Weigard: Israel is the girlfriend in the bar that won't stop mouthing off to the biggest guy there and then threatens to break up with you if you don't fight him.

Well said. That's an excellent metaphor.


Yeah. Almost like it was already said on some sort of stage.

/not obscure, Weigard
 
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