Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Salon)   Academia is supposed to permit and encourage the challenging of one's assumptions and beliefs... Unless we're talking about Israel   (salon.com ) divider line
    More: Sad, UC Santa Cruz, Peter Beinart, Depaul University, formal organization, American Jews, academic senate  
•       •       •

3565 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Apr 2012 at 2:08 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



166 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2012-04-25 10:39:34 AM  
The funny thing is, as Israel gets further and further removed from original WW II survivors, the less and less it behaves like a European country and more like a Middle-eastern country, with Middle-eastern ideals and methods of achieving them.
 
2012-04-25 10:48:19 AM  
i34.tinypic.com
 
2012-04-25 10:49:09 AM  

Generation_D: The funny thing is, as Israel gets further and further removed from original WW II survivors, the less and less it behaves like a European country and more like a Middle-eastern country, with Middle-eastern ideals and methods of achieving them.


Middle-eastern ideals like religious freedom?
 
2012-04-25 10:55:31 AM  
The update with the quote from Krugman struck me as interesting:

It seems obvious from here that the narrow-minded policies of the current government are basically a gradual, long-run form of national suicide - and that's bad for Jews everywhere, not to mention the world. But I have other battles to fight, and to say anything to that effect is to bring yourself under intense attack from organized groups that try to make any criticism of Israeli policies tantamount to anti-Semitism.
 
2012-04-25 10:56:09 AM  
Do not question the glory of Israel citizen.

give me doughnuts: Middle-eastern ideals like religious freedom?


Israel does not embrace religious freedom. They aren't Saudi Arabia, but they aren't exactly tolerant towards a certain religion either.
 
2012-04-25 10:56:52 AM  
 
2012-04-25 11:26:09 AM  
This will be a fun thread. My fuel to the flame war fire: You can be critical of Israel's policies without being antisemitic. Israel is not infallible and while the United States should ensure that Israel continues to exist as a country, the US does not have to support every idiotic decision Israel makes. The Palestinian people are human beings and deserve to be treated as such and should not have to live in near apartheid conditions.

I particularly liked the last part of this clip, "Because, apparently in Israel, you are allowed to be critical of Israel and still hold public office."
 
2012-04-25 11:26:42 AM  
A "cultural and academic boycott" does not advance academic freedom, it works against it.
 
2012-04-25 11:29:18 AM  
Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.
 
2012-04-25 11:42:46 AM  

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.


All those pesky facts are annoying, aren't they? And demanding hard evidence is SO unfair. Why can't we just cling to our ancient beliefs that have been handed down through the millenia? It's so much easier to not have to think and analyze data. Let your feelings form your reality. It's what God wants.
 
2012-04-25 11:43:35 AM  

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.


blogs.discovermagazine.com
 
2012-04-25 11:53:38 AM  

CommieTaoist: The Palestinian people are human beings and deserve to be treated as such and should not have to live in near apartheid conditions.


Near apartheid? Gaza best resembles the world's largest prison. Even South Africa wasn't that bad under apartheid.
 
2012-04-25 11:55:19 AM  

SkinnyHead: A "cultural and academic boycott" does not advance academic freedom, it works against it.


Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.


Israel: Number 1 with sock puppets and bots.
 
2012-04-25 11:55:39 AM  

GAT_00: CommieTaoist: The Palestinian people are human beings and deserve to be treated as such and should not have to live in near apartheid conditions.

Near apartheid? Gaza best resembles the world's largest prison. Even South Africa wasn't that bad under apartheid.


That kind of talk is Un-American!
 
2012-04-25 11:59:41 AM  

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.


Biology is science, not a belief system. But I really don't know why I bother with you. You're more narrow-minded as those you accuse of the same.
 
2012-04-25 12:05:44 PM  

Cagey B: SkinnyHead: A "cultural and academic boycott" does not advance academic freedom, it works against it.

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.

Israel: Number 1 with sock puppets and bots.


We're still missing one.
 
2012-04-25 12:10:55 PM  
On one hand...

During winter quarter, Shorter taught a class titled "Tribal Worldviews." The class focused on "native people's worldviews as they are expressed through language, mythology, ritual, health practices, languages and ecology," according to the syllabus.

As part of the class materials, Shorter posted a link to a site advocating for a cultural and academic boycott of Israel. Currently, he is also listed on the site as one of the endorsers of the boycott.


Imagine if a professor had posted a link to a site advocating for some kind of boycott or action (endorsed by the professor) against gay people or gay marriage or something. Would everyone posting in here leap to the defense of academic freedom?

On the other hand...

Shorter said he recognizes why the link could be seen as problematic, but added that the subject fit within the context of his course because Palestinians are recognized as a native people by the United Nations.

Shorter also said he discusses the issue in context during his lectures on the subject and that he points out areas where he disagrees with the boycott and discusses his evolving stance on the matter.
 
2012-04-25 12:15:41 PM  

Quasar: Imagine if a professor had posted a link to a site advocating for some kind of boycott or action (endorsed by the professor) against gay people or gay marriage or something. Would everyone posting in here leap to the defense of academic freedom?


Because that's the same farking thing.
 
2012-04-25 12:26:37 PM  

GAT_00: Quasar: Imagine if a professor had posted a link to a site advocating for some kind of boycott or action (endorsed by the professor) against gay people or gay marriage or something. Would everyone posting in here leap to the defense of academic freedom?

Because that's the same farking thing.


Yeah, a link "against gay people" would be comparable to a link "against Jewish people", not a link against Israeli state actions. But antisemitic and homophobic links could be appropriate in certain contexts regarding hate groups. As long as you're not listed as a farking supporter on the linked site.

I don't know why this guy is talking about his own viewpoint on Israel or making his viewpoint obvious via web links. If anything, the students in the class should be doing the arguing that with the prof. neutrally moderating. I don't know if the teacher should be penalized but he doesn't seem to be very good at his job.
 
2012-04-25 12:27:22 PM  
OK, here's the deal. Yes, stifling speech/academic freedom is A Bad Thing. However, it's done all the time. There are a metric shiatpile of things that I'm not going to be overtly advocating in my teaching. If we're keeping with the Jewish/Israel topic, how about Holocaust Denial? Other areas as well. Being an anti-Muslim activist? How about being a flat-earth geologist (hat tip to the BevBot)? Pro-pedophilia? You don't in fact have complete freedom to advocate any/all opinions/positions as an academic. However, the guy in TFA is an Associate Professor, so he most likely has tenure, and I'd be VERY opposed to any calls to revoke his tenure for his politico-religious views, since that's the whole logic behind tenure in the first place. And he didn't base his grading policies upon taking a particular political position, which isn't unknown in some areas (and evil, in my opinion). If he continues to be controversial, he probably won't make Full anytime soon, if ever, and he likely won't get a lot of important positions with the university either (which is the only way you get significant raises if you stay at one place -- getting appointed as a Dean or some such). So he will be "punished" in a sense. And if he messes with students by grading them more harshly for advocating a pro-Israel stance, then by all means revoke his tenure and be done with him. But having one (voluntary) assignment linked to a website with a controversial position is hardly worthy of notice in academe.

And no, I'm not suggesting that any/all of those alternative "problematic views" are on a par with or in any way equivalent to "criticism of Israel".
 
2012-04-25 12:28:30 PM  
I think the main issue is that he is a signatory of the site he has in his class.

Now I will grant he does not require students to read it, as it's one of four choices, and he's willing to discuss it his evolving stance on it.

This is what college is supposed to be about. Talking about different ideas. Discredited ideas, such as racism and creationism would be harder to justify.
 
2012-04-25 12:34:56 PM  
its time for Israel to go their own way. I wish them well...but their goals are not compatible with our goals. Or, to put it another way, it's not them...it's us. we want to date other people, take a break from the relationship...but stay friends! Keep in touch Israel! facebook ya laters!
 
2012-04-25 12:54:36 PM  
Boycott France? Hell, yeah, Patriot!!

Boycott Israel? YOU FARKING ANTI-SEMITE!!!!!!
 
2012-04-25 12:56:41 PM  
I support a boycott of Israeli goods, fortunately I don't regularly buy many Israeli products to begin with.

We all use Israeli software and probably don't know it.
 
2012-04-25 01:17:22 PM  

vernonFL: I support a boycott of Israeli goods, fortunately I don't regularly buy many Israeli products to begin with.

We all use Israeli software and probably don't know it.


I have a bag of yummy Israeli couscous. I wasn't sure where to put it, but fortunately the British and American governments "found" some space in a shelf for it until I figure out what to make.
 
2012-04-25 01:43:59 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Cagey B: SkinnyHead: A "cultural and academic boycott" does not advance academic freedom, it works against it.

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.

Israel: Number 1 with sock puppets and bots.

We're still missing one.


Don't worry, Mein/Tats will be in soon I'm sure.

It's depressing how unable we are to extradite ourselves from Israel. The relationship does nothing for us anymore.
 
2012-04-25 02:10:31 PM  
FTA: What kind of person goes to college and demands to be shielded from political views they dislike?

Well, shiat, all of them, I thought.
 
2012-04-25 02:10:58 PM  
Netanyahu.

That is all.
 
2012-04-25 02:12:22 PM  
Israel is an aparthied state run by criminals.
 
2012-04-25 02:18:23 PM  
I've been reading the first five books of the Old Testament.

Our prospects are not encouraging.
 
2012-04-25 02:18:33 PM  

adamgreeney: cameroncrazy1984: Cagey B: SkinnyHead: A "cultural and academic boycott" does not advance academic freedom, it works against it.

Bevets: Apparently subby has never been in a biology classroom.

Israel: Number 1 with sock puppets and bots.

We're still missing one.

Don't worry, Mein/Tats will be in soon I'm sure.

It's depressing how unable we are to extradite ourselves from Israel. The relationship does nothing for us anymore.


The fact that the US has consistently vetoed any attempts to use the power of the UN to help resolve the situation in Israel/Palestine during the multi-decade occupation there is the single largest reason why the situation has not been resolved to anyone's satisfaction yet.

That situation does not ultimately help either Israel or the US, it just erodes global confidence in the US while isolating Israel even further among it's neighbors and the international community.

Talking about Israel?

Would love to but the existence of so much very real anti-semitism in the world makes it hard to approach the subject without being an anti-semite.
 
2012-04-25 02:19:13 PM  
inb4 Tats threadshiat
 
2012-04-25 02:20:16 PM  
...without being labelled an anti-semite.

/Accidentally the whole thing.
 
2012-04-25 02:21:14 PM  
Why is talking bad about Israel verbotten? We bash the Chinese left and right and there are a billion of them and they're in a bunch of our graduate university programs.
 
2012-04-25 02:21:35 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Boycott France? Hell, yeah, Patriot!!

Boycott Israel? YOU FARKING ANTI-SEMITE!!!!!!



Freedom Ryes!
 
2012-04-25 02:23:46 PM  

CommieTaoist: This will be a fun thread. My fuel to the flame war fire: You can be critical of Israel's policies without being antisemitic. Israel is not infallible and while the United States should ensure that Israel continues to exist as a country, the US does not have to support every idiotic decision Israel makes. The Palestinian people are human beings and deserve to be treated as such and should not have to live in near apartheid conditions.

I particularly liked the last part of this clip, "Because, apparently in Israel, you are allowed to be critical of Israel and still hold public office."


Clearly this comment proves you're an Anti-Semite.
 
2012-04-25 02:24:58 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: inb4 Tats threadshiat


It's Israeli Independence Day over there right now. Maybe he's distracted.

/At least I'd hope so, it'd be like wasting the 4th of July on here
//BTW: Happy Israeli Independence Day everyone
 
2012-04-25 02:26:15 PM  
The chair of the Academic Senate responded to the complaint by saying that Shorter was counseled to not use the link again.


memedepot.com
 
2012-04-25 02:27:09 PM  

rjakobi: Netanyahu.

That is all.


Yep...and sadly it looks like he might win the next election coming up.

Although only a minority of Israeli's support him, his political party is the most centralized while every other party that opposes Bibi is split up into 4 or 5 different parties.

If they would've consolidated into some sort of unified party, they might win, but alas...
 
2012-04-25 02:28:08 PM  

dahmers love zombie: OK, here's the deal. Yes, stifling speech/academic freedom is A Bad Thing. However, it's done all the time. There are a metric shiatpile of things that I'm not going to be overtly advocating in my teaching. If we're keeping with the Jewish/Israel topic, how about Holocaust Denial? Other areas as well. Being an anti-Muslim activist? How about being a flat-earth geologist (hat tip to the BevBot)? Pro-pedophilia? You don't in fact have complete freedom to advocate any/all opinions/positions as an academic. However, the guy in TFA is an Associate Professor, so he most likely has tenure, and I'd be VERY opposed to any calls to revoke his tenure for his politico-religious views, since that's the whole logic behind tenure in the first place. And he didn't base his grading policies upon taking a particular political position, which isn't unknown in some areas (and evil, in my opinion). If he continues to be controversial, he probably won't make Full anytime soon, if ever, and he likely won't get a lot of important positions with the university either (which is the only way you get significant raises if you stay at one place -- getting appointed as a Dean or some such). So he will be "punished" in a sense. And if he messes with students by grading them more harshly for advocating a pro-Israel stance, then by all means revoke his tenure and be done with him. But having one (voluntary) assignment linked to a website with a controversial position is hardly worthy of notice in academe.

And no, I'm not suggesting that any/all of those alternative "problematic views" are on a par with or in any way equivalent to "criticism of Israel".


Would you feel the same way if he had posted a link advocating banning gay marriage or banning interracial marriage?
 
2012-04-25 02:28:27 PM  
Skinnyhead and Bevets in the same thread.

Which one of you dolts divided by zero?
 
2012-04-25 02:29:20 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Guidette Frankentits: inb4 Tats threadshiat

It's Israeli Independence Day over there right now. Maybe he's distracted.

/At least I'd hope so, it'd be like wasting the 4th of July on here
//BTW: Happy Israeli Independence Day everyone


They're going to shoot some white phosphorous into Palestinian civilian areas for the fireworks.
 
2012-04-25 02:30:00 PM  
Subby is a an Anti-Semite for even submitting this headline.
 
2012-04-25 02:33:22 PM  
Oh, grow up. People are gonna have a difference of opinion than you. Stop acting like babies and do your damned assigned work.
 
2012-04-25 02:34:12 PM  

machoprogrammer: dahmers love zombie: OK, here's the deal. Yes, stifling speech/academic freedom is A Bad Thing. However, it's done all the time. There are a metric shiatpile of things that I'm not going to be overtly advocating in my teaching. If we're keeping with the Jewish/Israel topic, how about Holocaust Denial? Other areas as well. Being an anti-Muslim activist? How about being a flat-earth geologist (hat tip to the BevBot)? Pro-pedophilia? You don't in fact have complete freedom to advocate any/all opinions/positions as an academic. However, the guy in TFA is an Associate Professor, so he most likely has tenure, and I'd be VERY opposed to any calls to revoke his tenure for his politico-religious views, since that's the whole logic behind tenure in the first place. And he didn't base his grading policies upon taking a particular political position, which isn't unknown in some areas (and evil, in my opinion). If he continues to be controversial, he probably won't make Full anytime soon, if ever, and he likely won't get a lot of important positions with the university either (which is the only way you get significant raises if you stay at one place -- getting appointed as a Dean or some such). So he will be "punished" in a sense. And if he messes with students by grading them more harshly for advocating a pro-Israel stance, then by all means revoke his tenure and be done with him. But having one (voluntary) assignment linked to a website with a controversial position is hardly worthy of notice in academe.

And no, I'm not suggesting that any/all of those alternative "problematic views" are on a par with or in any way equivalent to "criticism of Israel".

Would you feel the same way if he had posted a link advocating banning gay marriage or banning interracial marriage?


Last time I checked, this was still America. He can post a link to the KKK for all I care. I won't sit in his classes and nobody else will either; but they can revoke his tenure for failure to maintain class size, not for having a link to the KKK.
 
2012-04-25 02:34:13 PM  

Jake Havechek: Mrtraveler01: Guidette Frankentits: inb4 Tats threadshiat

It's Israeli Independence Day over there right now. Maybe he's distracted.

/At least I'd hope so, it'd be like wasting the 4th of July on here
//BTW: Happy Israeli Independence Day everyone

They're going to shoot some white phosphorous into Palestinian civilian areas for the fireworks.


I probably shouldn't have laughed at that.

I watched a stream of the celebrations on the computer (it's my off day and I'm bored) and I was quite disappointed in how few fireworks I saw, it was just a bunch of army guys dancing around or something.
 
2012-04-25 02:38:03 PM  

GAT_00: Do not question the glory of Israel citizen.

give me doughnuts: Middle-eastern ideals like religious freedom?

Israel does not embrace religious freedom. They aren't Saudi Arabia, but they aren't exactly tolerant towards a certain religion either.


Ever been to one of the many mosques in Israel? Ever been to a synagogue anywhere else in the MidEast? (Full disclosure: I've done the former, not the latter.)

I'll grant that CULTURALLY, Israel has growing up to do. Issues of religious freedom, though - I'll take up that radio guy's challenge: find me any city in the ME with more religious freedom than Jerusalem (or Tel Aviv, whatever). He offered $50k on-air, but I'll give you a month of TF.

GAT_00: CommieTaoist: The Palestinian people are human beings and deserve to be treated as such and should not have to live in near apartheid conditions.

Near apartheid? Gaza best resembles the world's largest prison. Even South Africa wasn't that bad under apartheid.


Gaza was under PA control (de facto or de jure) for the better part of the last 20 years. Israel doesn't run things there anymore (assuming they ever really did). Take it up with the leadership that's pissed away all the aid given them over the last 20 years.

West Jerusalem has been able to pull itself up by its sandal-straps (kind of) - why not Gaza? I wager it has to do with 65-70+% illiteracy rates there, not helped by all the schools NOT built by the PA/Hamas over the last 20 years.

But Gaza is a specially retarded case of everybody neglecting it for very different reasons. The Cause finds it useful to have such a decrepit place on Israel's doorstep full of angry people with little prospect for advancement. Israel wants to stem the flow of militancy from there, so they've tried to siege it to death.

Ugh. I wish I could wave a magic wand and undo the bad blood from the last 1500 years. Erasing history's blackboard (and the constant drum beat of "evening the score" from everyone) would go a long way toward finding a solution forward.
 
2012-04-25 02:38:06 PM  
FTA:"the subject fit within the context of his course because Palestinians are recognized as a native people by the United Nations."

So he also supports these indigenous people

And hates the hundreds of thousands of "Palestinians" that arrived in Palestine in the last century or so.
 
2012-04-25 02:38:40 PM  
The whole MSM-blackout and censorship of what's really going on over there is sickening. Criticize the US government and you're a "patriot" (well, only because there's a black democrat in office) but criticize a foreign government who is holding tens of thousands of civilians in a prison-like environment, directly interfering with our government in an election year, and trying to draw us into a war we want no part of, and all of a sudden you're a "Jew-hating Holocaust denier".

Bullshiat.

I'll defer to a man who loves his country, who loves humanity more than most, yet hates what his government has been doing: Link
 
2012-04-25 02:40:53 PM  

Dr Dreidel: West Jerusalem has been able to pull itself up by its sandal-straps (kind of) - why not Gaza? I wager it has to do with 65-70+% illiteracy rates there, not helped by all the schools NOT built by the PA/Hamas over the last 20 years.


Did you mean East Jerusalem?
 
Displayed 50 of 166 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report