Dancin_In_Anson: Urbn: So now there have been at least 4 people in this thread who at least claim to have experience on a farm who are alright with the proposed provisions

I'm curious how many of them are parents.

I am. I quit that life for a better one and would never put my daughter through what my day to day life was. There's a temptation to look back at it with the eyes of nostalgia but, when I honestly evaluate it, growing up as a kid on a farm sucked ass.

I sometimes look outside my office and miss working in the fresh air and sun but then remind myself that working in the sun sucks when it's 95+ degrees and you don't have the option of quitting for the day.

Grew up on a small Nebraska farm. I'm OK with the regs as long as they exempt the children of the farmers themselves. It should be up to the parents to decide when a child is old enough to perform certain tasks. The last thing a farmer needs is his kid threatening to call the cops on him because he made him go sweep out a grain bin or bottle a calf.

Dancin_In_Anson: TwoHead: /grew up on family farm
//ok with proposed rules because they exempt family farms
///parent


So you need to be told where you can allow your child to work. I guess I'm ok with that if you are.

Jesus Christ on a cracker, how many times does it need to be repeated that this does not apply to the children of the farm owners?

Dancin_In_Anson: Urbn: So now there have been at least 4 people in this thread who at least claim to have experience on a farm who are alright with the proposed provisions

I'm curious how many of them are parents.

I'm curious how whether or not I have kids would make my opinion, born of spending all 18 years of my own childhood on a ranch, any more or less relevant to the topic.

spiderpaz: The eventual result will be all American farms and ranches being heavy machined, large corporate operations, and a tremendous transfer of land from the middle class to the wealthy.

This is true, if by "eventual result" you mean "what occurred about 30 years ago."

spiderpaz: I'd like to preface this by saying that I'm a Democrat and I don't support curbing child labor laws or anything crazy teabaggers might say.

This country, incrementally is trying to legislate away an entire way of life by making it prohibitively expensive, and impossible to navigate all the regs and bureaucracy. Everybody is always talking about the phony wars on religion, Christmas, guns, church, blah blah, etc. But there is actually a real war on rural life as it has been for hundreds of years. The eventual result will be all American farms and ranches being heavy machined, large corporate operations, and a tremendous transfer of land from the middle class to the wealthy.



Your premise assumes that the Government is making this happen. That is incorrect. Advances in technology will make this happen no matter what. We are on the verge of a major cultural upheaval. Within one or two decades there will be no manual labour left for humans to perform, as machines will be able to do it better, faster, and cheaper in all instances.

Look at United States productivity levels over the past 50 years. They are skyrocketing, even when taken at a per-capita view. Most pundits take this to show that people in this country are increasingly overworked, and while that may be true, there's no way that the extra working hours account for that productivity gain. Humans are increasingly being replaced with machines.

No amount of free child labour is going to help Mr. Hypothetical Family Farmer compete against MegaCorp Inc. The machines that MegaCorp Inc. uses will always be far more efficient than humans. The bigger the corp, the better and more efficient machines they'll be able to afford.


We're at a point in history where there is increasingly less work that humans need to accomplish to maintain society, and rapidly approaching the point where that number becomes zero. We're going to have to learn to adopt our economic policies to this endgame or there will be a massive amount of chaos once all the formerly-labouring-humans are out of work and only the machine-owners own anything anymore. This, more than anything else, is the cause of the wealth shift from the middle-class to the wealthy.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: dennysgod: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Why are these kids allowed to work all day on farms anyway? Shouldn't they be in school?

Not sure if trolling, but they don't, many get up early, work around the farm, go to school, come home and work some more.

5 am: Get up and feed the livestock
6:30 am: Get ready for school
8-3:30: School
4:30-5:30: Homework
5:30-7:30pm: Chores
7:30: Dinner
8-10pm: Free time unless there was some emergency

High school farking sucked and the weekends weren't much better. My friends were generally of the opinion that I was being used as slave labor.

I was a little luckier than you. my day would go
6am, get up, get ready for school.
7am: hour long bus ride
8-330:school
3 30: hour long busride
430: snack, then chores till 8
8pm: dinner
830-6: homework, sleep

birchman: Jesus Christ on a cracker, how many times does it need to be repeated that this does not apply to the children of the farm owners?

can you point out the part of the article that mentions this exemption?

colon_pow: birchman: Jesus Christ on a cracker, how many times does it need to be repeated that this does not apply to the children of the farm owners?

can you point out the part of the article that mentions this exemption?

No I can't, because the article is a piece of shiat partisan hatchet job that is completely incorrect.

I can, however, cite the US Department Of Labor website's page on the issue, which states the following:

On February 1, 2012, the Department announced that it will re-propose the portion of its regulation on child labor in agriculture interpreting the "parental exemption." The parental exemption allows children of any age who are employed by their parent, or a person standing in the place of a parent, to perform any job on a farm owned or operated by their parent or such person standing in the place of a parent. The re-proposal process will seek comments and inputs as to how the department can comply with statutory requirements to protect children, while respecting rural traditions. The re-proposed portion of the rule is expected to be published for public comment by early summer. The department will continue to review the comments received regarding the remaining portions of the proposed rule for inclusion in a final rule.

Questions?

Sergeant Grumbles: You try getting kicked in the face by a cow at 14.
It makes sense. Working around large animals, especially a lot of them like in a stockyard, is only work for seasoned professionals, not teenagers. No one's saying teens can feed the pigs, but there's plenty of situations where livestock can be just as deadly as any machinery.

I'm not saying that working around large animals isn't dangerous, I understand that it is and grew up around farms. However, there are lots of things that teenagers do that are dangerous and I don't think the federal government needs to try and make them all illegal. I couldn't find very recent numbers but the numbers I saw were from the early/mid 90s and said that on average 104 deaths per year occurred in farm related accidents, and this number included anyone 19 years old or younger. That isn't a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, which is not to say that their lives aren't important or don't matter. But consider that on average in the US 600+-700+ people die in bicycle accidents each year. I couldn't find what percentage were minors but it did state that the age bracket at highest risk of death from bicycle injury was 5-14, so I think it is probably safe to assume that we have as many, or possibly even more, children dying from bicycle accidents as from farm accidents. Should the federal government make laws preventing children and anyone who isn't a seasoned professional ride bikes? Why does it make sense for them to address one and not the other?

I think that people should be safe and not put anyone into a position that they can't handle, whether they're a minor or an adult. However, this doesn't seem like something the federal government needs to be spending their time focusing on. If these laws are needed, they can be done at the state level where they are likely to have a better understanding of what would work well in their area and with their citizens. Many of the rules they are proposing make sense, but others are far too broad and drastically reduce what someone under 18 could do on a farm.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: dennysgod: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Why are these kids allowed to work all day on farms anyway? Shouldn't they be in school?

Not sure if trolling, but they don't, many get up early, work around the farm, go to school, come home and work some more.

5 am: Get up and feed the livestock
6:30 am: Get ready for school
8-3:30: School
4:30-5:30: Homework
5:30-7:30pm: Chores
7:30: Dinner
8-10pm: Free time unless there was some emergency

High school farking sucked and the weekends weren't much better. My friends were generally of the opinion that I was being used as slave labor.

Yeah, you were. I grew up in farm country and I helped some of my friends on their farm and my normal payment was a big dinner or some beer, but I had to luxury to not work that day and leave when I choose.

colon_pow: birchman: Jesus Christ on a cracker, how many times does it need to be repeated that this does not apply to the children of the farm owners?

can you point out the part of the article that mentions this exemption?

Oh gee, I wonder what reason the Daily Caller might have to omit the exemption from their article?

Dancin_In_Anson: birchman: Jesus Christ on a cracker, how many times does it need to be repeated that this does not apply to the children of the farm owners

It does indeed if your kid wants to work at the feedlot.

Nobody's kid ever wants to work at the feedlot, unless they get a job when they're 16 like a normal person.

birchman: Questions?

I have one!

How can I blame this on Obama?

mahuika: birchman: Questions?

I have one!

How can I blame this on Obama?

Taxbongo is just bitter about people working on farms for free?

runin800m: Should the federal government make laws preventing children and anyone who isn't a seasoned professional ride bikes? Why does it make sense for them to address one and not the other?

Is the US government currently allowing children to ride their bikes on federal highways?

Anything that limits a right-winger's ability to exploit cheap labor is bad. We get it.

Dancin_In_Anson: birchman: Jesus Christ on a cracker, how many times does it need to be repeated that this does not apply to the children of the farm owners

It does indeed if your kid wants to work at the feedlot.

If my kid wants to work in a feedlot I'll pay her not to and try getting her an internship at the local nanotech lab. For kids of farmers it isn't so much that they *want* to work in the family business but that they *have* to. Even for teenagers there's frequently better paying jobs that are less labor intensive.

mahuika: birchman: Questions?

I have one!

How can I blame this on Obama?

Well first you have to ignore all the facts and falsely claim that the law prevents anyone from working outside of a large city until they are 40 years old. Then you claim that it's socialist marxism and destroying America because muslims.

More government intrusion. There goes the family farm.

Why does Obama and the democrats hate the hard working families who instill a decent work ethic in children?

This legislation may be intended to reduce the children of immigrant workers from being taken advantage of, but it really hampers the ability of kids to get experience in the farming business when they themselves don't have a farm, or have a farm that is too small to keep them busy. It is the rare farmer that did not help out a neighboring farm as a kid.

Anyone over 12 can drive a tractor, clean a silo, and feed cattle safely as long as there is adequate training. Agriculture has and continues to improve on safety, particularly in machinery.

/Applied anhydrous ammonia in junior high.
//If the main line ruptures, put it in neutral, jump out and run against the wind

EWreckedSean: Grand_Moff_Joseph: As amended, the rules exempt farmers' direct children, so I fail to see the issue here.

Besides, look at what the rule covers:

"The proposal would strengthen current child labor regulations prohibiting agricultural work with animals and in pesticide handling, timber operations, manure pits and storage bins. It would prohibit farmworkers under age 16 from participating in the cultivation, harvesting and curing of tobacco. And it would prohibit youth in both agricultural and nonagricultural employment from using electronic, including communication, devices while operating power-driven equipment."

and

"Prohibited places of employment would include country grain elevators, grain bins, silos, feed lots, stockyards, livestock exchanges and livestock auctions."


These are dangerous places for even a experienced adult to be. Teens have no business being in any of those locations.

Nanny state much? You want to keep a teenager out of a grain elevator is one thing, but feed lots, stock yards, cattle auctions. Oh no, you are much too young to feed the pigs! Give me a break.



Why are we using the term "teenagers? The policy refers to kids under 16. Sure... 13, 14, and 15 are technically *-teen agers. But, when people think of teenagers, they think of kids who can drive.

Using the term "teenagers" in this context is totally dishonest and a deliberate attempt to conjure a misleading image.

"Oh my God, what you mean my 13 year old can't drive the cattle truck 11 hours from Houston to Amarillo?!?!? This is bullshiat!!! NANNY STATE!!!"

Dancin_In_Anson: cameroncrazy1984: Nobody's kid ever wants to work at the feedlot, unless they get a job when they're 16 like a normal person.

Rule applies to children under 18 and yes, there are still kids who don't mind doing some grunt work for gas money.

Right. They can get a job somewhere else doing gruntwork, and not at a feedlot where the potential for injury/death is not so high.

Get it? Kids these days have CARS and things where they can DRIVE elsewhere to work.

I grew up in a town of 500 people. When I was sixteen I got a job at Taco Bell.

Do you know where the nearest Taco Bell was? 35 minutes away. But I did it. It was grunt work. I got gas money. I didn't have to work in the local feedlot.

cameroncrazy1984: Dancin_In_Anson: cameroncrazy1984: Nobody's kid ever wants to work at the feedlot, unless they get a job when they're 16 like a normal person.

Rule applies to children under 18 and yes, there are still kids who don't mind doing some grunt work for gas money.

Right. They can get a job somewhere else doing gruntwork, and not at a feedlot where the potential for injury/death is not so high.

Get it? Kids these days have CARS and things where they can DRIVE elsewhere to work.

I grew up in a town of 500 people. When I was sixteen I got a job at Taco Bell.

Do you know where the nearest Taco Bell was? 35 minutes away. But I did it. It was grunt work. I got gas money. I didn't have to work in the local feedlot.

Also, no, the policy refers to children under the age of 16.

Dancin_In_Anson: cameroncrazy1984: Nobody's kid ever wants to work at the feedlot, unless they get a job when they're 16 like a normal person.

Rule applies to children under 18 and yes, there are still kids who don't mind doing some grunt work for gas money.

The DoL FLSA establishes a minimum age of 18 for hazardous work in nonagricultural employment and 16 in agricultural employment. Once agricultural workers reach age 16, they are no longer subject to the FLSA's child labor provisions. The FLSA also provides a complete exemption for youths employed on farms owned by their parents. Source

piledhigheranddeeper: or have a farm that is too small to keep them busy

There is no such thing unless you're talking about someone's backyard garden and chicken coop. There is always something whether it's maintenance or improvements to existing facilities. Usually upkeep alone is enough to keep everyone busy.

Should the federal government make laws preventing children and anyone who isn't a seasoned professional ride bikes? Why does it make sense for them to address one and not the other?

Because one is a hired job where the adult, who is fundamentally in a position of power over children, has a profit motive to coerce the child into doing something they can't handle, and the other it just kids being kids.

But I thought the dirty revenuers done already used the DEATH TAX to seize all the family farms?

Oh GOP... You and your Orwellian newspeak. I suspect Frank Luntz is behind the "war on CHORES" tactic.

"Why, I say the filthy gubmint won't even let Wally Cleaver take out the garbage or mow the lawn no more. How he s'posed to learn a work ethic now???"

Dancin_In_Anson: cameroncrazy1984: I grew up in a town of 500 people. When I was sixteen I got a job at Taco Bell.

Congratulations. No burns from hot grease, slips on the floor etc etc etc. How did you ever survive?

Government regulations, actually. I was not allowed to clean the fryer at 16 without supervision, or operate a mechanical slicer.

Thanks for the setup, though, that was pretty awesome.

cman: Next regulation coming up: prohibiting a child who has dust allergies from sweeping

You do know the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy, right? I mean, you're so smart you've bucked the two-party trend! Despite the fact that you're going to vote for a Republican in the next election.

What a surprise... a pack of right-wing lies and distortions, and Dancin_In_Anson is falling all over himself to be the first in line to swallow 'em down.

technicolor-misfit: What a surprise... a pack of right-wing lies and distortions, and Dancin_In_Anson is falling all over himself to be the first in line to swallow 'em down.

And he didn't grow up in farm country nor does he have any farming experience. Yet this is Important To Him because the Daily Caller says its Bad For America.

Dancin_In_Anson: You mean you can make decisions like this on your own? So tell me again why you need to be told where you can allow her to work.

I completely agree. I had a job lined up for my 10-year old, down at the oil refinery. I figured that would keep him in Pokemon cards for a while, and teach him some valuable lessons about how to work around highly inflammable carcinogens, which I'm sure you'll agree is a valuable skill in this economy. Turns out, they can't legally let him work there. I mean, really - what the hell is wrong with this country?

Dancin_In_Anson: Monkeyhouse Zendo: If my kid wants to work in a feedlot I'll pay her not to and try getting her an internship at the local nanotech lab.

You mean you can make decisions like this on your own? So tell me again why you need to be told where you can allow her to work.

You're so farking obtuse you may as well be a straight line. The issue isn't that when presented with the option that people can make a good choice, it's that frequently they don't with some pretty bad consequences. Regulations aren't put in place to control people who are good actors, they are to limit bad actors.

Is it your contention that, in the absence of regulations, everyone will make the decision that limits negative consequences for kids who may have no part in that decision?