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(Yahoo)   Northern Alliance takes Kabul. Mass beard-shaving, music-playing, and kite-flying ensues.   (dailynews.yahoo.com) divider line 120
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3825 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Nov 2001 at 9:21 AM (13 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2001-11-13 01:41:30 PM  
In 1984, after Ismail Khan killed several hundred Soviet advisors and their families, the Soviets replied by destroying 50-75% of Herat via bomber raids. Thousands died.

How many civilians have the Taliban said are dead? 1,000? 2,000? In ALL of Afghanistan?



How many social democrats are in Afghanistan right now? I'm sure we'd support the faction in Afghanistan that wants a Western-style liberal democracy IF THERE WERE ONE!!!!!

Fb-:

Desperate men do desperate things. The counteroffensive would be routed, quickly.

Fb- takes a pause from impregnating celebrity women:

This is true. The bombing in the northern part of the country, which is the hardest-hit area of the country, can essentially cease.

The US engaging in a war of self-defence is NOT illegal, BTW.

Shawn Pickrell
 
2001-11-13 01:48:40 PM  
"How many social democrats are in Afghanistan right now?"

Interesting question... Ever heard of the Southern Alliance? I was reading about it a week or so ago, and it seems that there IS a Southern Alliance made up of those pushing for Democracy in Afghanistan. I don't know what the viability of this group is, but it does exist. The leader moved to the US when the Taliban took control, and has been in contact since we started bombing(He's a professor of politics @ URI if I'm not mistaken). I wonder why we aren't supporting THEM?


Just some food for thought.

Rapier
 
2001-11-13 01:52:14 PM  
Fb-: HELP!! MY DATA IS AN ERROR!!!
 
2001-11-13 01:52:59 PM  
Rapier, if the Southern Alliance were effective AT ALL, wouldn't he be trying to organise something?

It may exist, but its size/strength is doubtful at best.

Shawn
 
fb-
2001-11-13 02:01:32 PM  
Looks like most of this conversation is moot now. The NA wants to turn Kabul over to the UN for discussions to establish a new government and the UN has accepted.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/13/gen.war.against.terror/index.html
 
fb-
2001-11-13 02:07:59 PM  
Boorite,

Tape that and replay it a few thousand times and you have my day.
 
2001-11-13 02:19:07 PM  
Wow, isn't it amazing how the left makes such outragous claims:

Flaming Liberal - Afghanistan will be another Vietnam!

Rational Human - No, it will be over in weeks.

FL - The American people will not stand for U.S. military casualties

RH - So far about 85% of Americans say they would accept a long war, but at least in Afghanistan it doesn't look like that will happen.

FL - Look at all of the dead civilians. The taliban say it's true so it must be!

RH - There were some bombs that went astray, but no where near the number the taliban claim.

FL - The Northern Alliance has taken Kabul now they will control the country and rape all the men and eat all of the women, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!!!

RH - The Northern Alliance has agreed to the UN setting up a provisional government. Here's another link to go with Fb's

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,38633,00.html

FL - Well, the U.S. brought this on ourselves.

RH - No, the taliban brought this on themselves, and hopefully Iraq will be next.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 02:32:58 PM  
Bildo,

You just summed up over 10,000 posts on fark. Outstanding!
 
2001-11-13 02:39:44 PM  
Shawn, aka Stpickrell,

Entirely a possibility, I am just amazed how much more there is to EVERY story than meets the eye.



Rapier
 
Rei
2001-11-13 02:59:37 PM  
Wow, isn't it amazing how the left makes such outragous claims:

Flaming Liberal - Afghanistan will be another Vietnam!
Rational Human - No, it will be over in weeks.


Well, congrats, it's already been more than a few weeks ;) Oh, and just last friday, we were reporting 30-40k left in the taliban. I guess they've just magically dissapeared, as has al Qaeda, and we'll never hear from them again, and the Northern Alliance won't committ more atrocities like they're famous for, and we'll all live on flower petals and eat gumdrops all day now, right? :)

FL - The American people will not stand for U.S. military casualties
RH - So far about 85% of Americans say they would accept a long war, but at least in Afghanistan it doesn't look like that will happen.


Nice deception. The number drops down to the mid-60s when you add to the survey the words "involving large numbers of american casualties". And, this is before there have even been significant military casualties.

FL - Look at all of the dead civilians. The taliban say it's true so it must be!
RH - There were some bombs that went astray, but no where near the number the taliban claim.


Laf, that's why the US media can walk in the streets of kabul and watch people being pulled out from under rubble all across Kabul, Kandahar, Mazar-e-sharif, etc... why the US has obliterated entire villages, and reporters searching through the rubble finding nothing of military value, only women's clothes, children's toys, etc. Why we get a new, either US or UN confirmed report each day of somewhere between 10-100 civilian deaths, and these are just what's being reported. Why we've (confirmed) taken out hospitals (note the plural), dams, schools (in session), shrines, directly inadvertedly bombed civilian neigborhoods several times, and destroyed literally hundreds of buildings from shock waves alone. Oh, no, that's just a myth, we're faking the confirmations. Noone would get hurt, droping bombs downtown in cities the size of philadelphia!

And, this is neglecting the stopping of shipments of food to 6 million hungry people, the prevention of shipments of getting to mountain passes where 500,000 people will be stranded for the winter and food won't be able to get to, etc. This neglects the addition of new landmines to the landscape that look like children's toys. Oh, but we're saints and the afghans love us, right?

Get a clue. Visit www.rawa.org, for a local perspective (just so you know, rawa is an organization which despises the taliban and al qaeda, and regularly has members executed by the taliban)

FL - The Northern Alliance has taken Kabul now they will control the country and rape all the men and eat all of the women, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!!!

RH - The Northern Alliance has agreed to the UN setting up a provisional government. Here's another link to go with Fb's


Read about the history of the alliance at rawa's site. And they've already done to us what they've been doing for years, making claims and then breaking them. Just like they claimed they'd stay out of kabul until there was a government set up, and then went in. Or, they'd allow the taliban in a joint government, and now suddenly changed their minds. Or how they would follow human rights laws, and there've already been hundreds of executions and abductions reported by the UN in Mazar-e-sharif, a city that is mostly *their own people*.

FL - Well, the U.S. brought this on ourselves.
RH - No, the taliban brought this on themselves, and hopefully Iraq will be next.


What did the Taliban do to bring this on themselves? Ally with bin Laden? Well, then we should bomb the alliance too, since they were his first allies, and a number of them are terrorists. Not listen to the demands that the US made that no country on earth would ever have accepted were the tables turned? Give me a break.

Oh, but the US's starving of millions of people in Iraq to try and make them revolt, the sanctions condemned by the UN, didn't help cause 9/11. Nor did the US's state-sanctioned terrorism in other countries like Nicaragua, for which we were twice convicted by the world court, and which we overrode our sentances with our security council veto power. Our neglect for world support, our knee-jerk vigilanteeism, our sponsorship of unpopular regimes, none of this had any effect, right?
 
2001-11-13 03:08:27 PM  
hmm. I guess god didn't protect them afterall.
WHADDAYA KNOW?
 
2001-11-13 03:49:40 PM  
Rei: I was dissapointed you never replied to my reply to your reply to my post on the thread a couple of days ago.

First off, I would like to know where you are seeing all this about our bombing civilian sites like a school in session, how about some links? And I'm sorry but as much as I feel bad for the wonderful ladies at rawa.org, I do not trust anything they report any more than I trust the Taliban, though I certainly feel compassion for them. They are not exactly an unbiased source of information, they have a pretty obvious agenda, even if it is a righteous one.

As for the comments about the U.S. starving 500,000 Iraqi civilians with our sanctions, I am extremely tired of hearing about this. While it may not be a nice thing to have sanctions, it is far from the U.S.'s fault that all those people have no food. Saddam Hussein has billions of dollars, in the last 10 years he has built something like 40 or 50 palaces, and he seems more than competent at smuggling black market oil. I think it is pretty obvious that if he had any sort of inclination to feed his people, he would be more than able to do that. But I guess that would not be as effective of a way to appeal to liberal sentiments as showing the poor starving children of Irag in order to get the sanctions lifted.

In regards to all the questions about how nice the Northern Alliance is and how many troops the Taliban has.... It is obvious from the events of the past 2 months and from everything I've read about Afghanis that if the people of Afghanistan can be counted on for anything it is for betting on a winner. The more and more obvious it is that the Taliban will lose, the more and more people defect from their ranks. Also, the Northern Alliance are not fools. They have seen for themselves the destructive power of the American military and I doubt that they would like to see themselves on the receiving end of that any time soon. So, even if they would rather pillage, murder, rape and destroy, I think they will not as it is obviously not in their best interests to do so.

Lastly, on the issue of not getting humanitarian relief to all the starving and cold people of Afghanistan. Obviously, the Taliban is/was not very concerned about the health and happiness of the people. If they were in control of the country, the people would starve anyway. So, we could have been super-extra-special careful about where we bombed and made sure the infrastructure was undamaged so food and aid could go to all the people; but then have all that food and aid confiscated by the Taliban; and draw the conflict out and thus have the people in this situation for a long time. Or we could have done what we did; which is go all out, take out the Taliban and cause the people a little extra hardship for a short amount of time so that we could then open the country completely to UN and other organization's aid workers and allow humanitarian relief to flow freely without being obstructed by a bunch of bad guys. I think the second way is better, and I would bet most Afghanis think so too.
 
2001-11-13 04:02:32 PM  
Here goes Fb- on his tireless crusade against intelligence and truth. Slithering out of his hole to make up more information and to fetter the truth. I NEVER once commented on the US being "wiped out", this being another Vietnam or "Taliban sliding to victory". As described by FatTulip, you're just a media drone. I used to laugh at your posts since i thought you were joking about the way you defend EVERYTHING America does, but the last few weeks have changed my mind sooo much.
 
Rei
2001-11-13 04:25:25 PM  
Dr. Jones:

Ah, so... you *don't* trust rawa, who is on the ground in afghanistan and has been since the 70's, but you instead will trust reports from the US government, who's major intelligence gathering agency - the CIA - has publicly stated that they don't even have a *single* pashtu or dari speaker amongst them, let alone someone who knows about their culture? That seems... a little weak.

As to all of the articles, I read CNN and MSNBC's complete coverage in their US and Europe editions daily (except weekends), as well as part of ABC's and Fox's coverage. I believe I have a picture on my computer that I saved of a boy running away from the school; would you like me to upload it? I don't have the article that came with it.

Oh, and please forgive me if I don't know what reply you're talking about, I don't get online much on the weekends (I do a little, sometimes).

As for the comments about the U.S. starving 500,000 Iraqi civilians with our sanctions, I am extremely tired of hearing about this. While it may not be a nice thing to have sanctions, it is far from the U.S.'s fault that all those people have no food. Saddam Hussein has billions of dollars, in the last 10 years he has built something like 40 or 50 palaces, and he seems more than competent at smuggling black market oil.

And... he'd get away with it *how*, if there weren't sanctions on the country? We're not starving him of money, he can just siphon it off of what is left of an economy; he has the US to blame. Sadam is seen throughout even most of the Arab world as a cruel, brutal man. But continuing with a policy that does, even if indirectly, even if it is Saddam's fault, lead to an extreme level of punishment of Iraqi civilians that would not be occurring in normal circumstances, without an apparent negative effect to the person we're trying to depose, is hugely irresponsible. The UN recognises this; why can't we?

Also, the Northern Alliance are not fools. They have seen for themselves the destructive power of the American military and I doubt that they would like to see themselves on the receiving end of that any time soon.

Then why are they openly defying the US on two critical issues - the siezure of Kabul and the allowing of a broad-based coalition? To be quite honest, they're showing all signs of seing themselves as either essential, or invulnerable.

Obviously, the Taliban is/was not very concerned about the health and happiness of the people. If they were in control of the country, the people would starve anyway.

Actually, if you look at history (and the present), the NA has a far, far worse record of interfereing with humanitarian assistance. Just look at what they did with Mazar e Sharif just this weekend - siezed all of the aid from agencies in the cities, and an entire approaching convoy. They've been doing this for ages.

The Taliban has actually shown a surprising degree of care for at least their pashtun citizens. They actually evacuated areas around their bases (I have a picture of one such area, from another article) that were at risk of getting hit after some initial residential-area hits early on, and moved most of their equiptment from the city to the countryside (several on-the-ground reports from CNN reporters, when asked about claims our government was making that they were hiding equiptment in civilian areas).

and I would bet most Afghanis think so too.

Most afghans in Kabul at least fear the NA - that's why the Taliban was welcomed, mainly because, well, they weren't the NA. Kabul is filled with people who stepped on NA landmines just by walking across the city; had all of their family destroyed in intertribal battles, or as part of a systematic purge by one of several commanders; knew women who were abducted and/or gang raped by northern alliance troops and commanders; or a number of other things. I can get you a few dozen articles on this without any effort if you'd like.
 
2001-11-13 04:27:58 PM  
I think that Fb is unfairly ostracized on these boards. I have yet to see how anything he says can be characterized as crazy or off the wall, on the contrary most of what he says makes a lot of sense and is very logical. He supports the U.S. and generally believes that we are doing the right thing; big deal. I think that most people can use a dose of that, it seems to me that most people on this board are way too cynical about everything we do and think every action we make has some ulterior motive or that we are just bad guys in everything. We might not do everything right but it seems to me that we at least have our hearts in the right place and we go to great pains to make sure to the best of our abilities to do what is right while still accomplishing what we need to do, like destroying the Taliban.
 
2001-11-13 04:43:04 PM  
Rei:

I never said I trust the U.S. governments reports above all others. Again, like rawa and the Taliban, the U.S. government as a clear agenda and are very biased. I will only believe something if there has been independent verification.

As for the NA seizing Kabul, I don't think that a group that is looking out for their own interests automatically makes them bad. Luckily for them there was no one in control of the city when the Taliban left and this gave them a legitimate motive for entering the city; whether this was their true motive or not. My point was, the NA does not seem suicidal like the Taliban and is not going to completely defy the U.S., though I am not surprised that they are maneuvering within certain bounds to bolster their political position for any future Afghan government. As to a broad based coalition, I was under the impression that this is what we want.

Look, I don't think the NA are good guys. i think they are bad guys too. But luckily they are sane bad guys that know when to say when and are smart enough to see what direction the wind is blowing and piss accordingly.

As for Saddam Hussein, I'm not saying the situation in Iraq is all his fault; that is as naive as saying it is all because of the sanctions. All I was saying is that it is ridiculous to lay the blame for half a million dead Iraqi's at the doorstep of the White House. Hopefully, he will be the next step in all of this as many people in the administration would like. He is a major part of the problem as is our sanctions (which cause a great deal of the Arab resentment towards us) and hopefully we can do that right this time around.
 
2001-11-13 05:03:06 PM  
Continuing the sanctions in Iraq merely allows Saddam to write more pages in his Book of Lies. On this I can agree.

Rei, how many social democrats are there in Afghanistan right now?

You seem to enjoy minimising the atrocities of the Taliban. I think www.rawa.org has much on the atrocities of the Taliban.

"Evidence emerges of massacres by retreating Taleban forces in the central town of Bamiyan, which they have totally destroyed."

Shawn Pickrell
 
Rei
2001-11-13 05:07:15 PM  
Dr.Jones:

When looking at a motivation (remember - you're getting information from somewhere, so you need to determine: which group has the most reasonable motivation?), it is important to look at what goals they're trying to accomplish, and how good of sources of information they're trying to bring.

Motivation:
US government: keep everyone united behind the president, keep supporting the war.
Rawa: bring democracy and peace to afghanistan
US Media: Get the highest ratings possible by pandering to as wide of a US cross section as possible.

Well, looking at the motivations, the US government is obviously the worst. The US media simply reflects what the 80% or so of americans that currently support the war feel. Rawa, on the other hand, their motivation sounds like what an almost ideal information source would be here.

And, if you look at information available to the groups, Rawa wins hands down. So.. I have to question how they're a worse source than the other possibilities.

Look, I don't think the NA are good guys. i think they are bad guys too. But luckily they are sane bad guys that know when to say when and are smart enough to see what direction the wind is blowing and piss accordingly.

I'm surprised you haven't started questioning that view looking at how they've just started a new policy of openly defying the US ;)

As for Iraq, I agree - as I was saying before, we can't lay all of the blame on the US. However, to pretend that we don't deserve a good portion of the blame, is just wrong.
 
2001-11-13 05:14:35 PM  
Rei:

other than the NA killing 100 Taliban soldiers in Mazar-e Sharif, what atrocities have been committed so far, over the past 72 hours?

Where are the rallies calling for the Taliban to return? It seems people are pretty happy the Taliban are gone.

When the Taliban fled Kabul, what did you want to happen? What should've happened?

Shawn Pickrell
 
fb-
2001-11-13 05:49:10 PM  
Rei,

What needs to be done to get even with they US for all their crimes? How can we make the US pay?
 
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