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(Yahoo)   Northern Alliance takes Kabul. Mass beard-shaving, music-playing, and kite-flying ensues.   (dailynews.yahoo.com) divider line 120
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3825 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Nov 2001 at 9:21 AM (13 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



120 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2001-11-13 09:26:57 AM  
then they attempt to break the record for most ja-waas' in a tank
 
2001-11-13 09:27:32 AM  
Shave off those beards and play that music. Enjoy it before the Alliance comes in and starts slaughtering people again.
On the bright side. Taliban are losers, Taliban are losers, na na na na na :P
 
2001-11-13 09:28:39 AM  
WorldCitizen, the Northern Alliance, I think, is more capable of learning from past mistakes and is more responsive to international pressure than the Taliban.

Shawn Pickrell
 
2001-11-13 09:28:43 AM  


then they attempt to break the record for most ja-waas' in a tank
 
2001-11-13 09:29:34 AM  
Will burqua-less women qualify as a boobies link?
 
2001-11-13 09:29:35 AM  
Woohoo!
 
fb-
2001-11-13 09:29:45 AM  
Hate to say it, but I told ya. Take Mazar-e Sharif and the Taliban will crumble. Next stop, Kanduhar.
 
2001-11-13 09:34:23 AM  
"WorldCitizen, the Northern Alliance, I think, is more capable of learning from past mistakes and is more responsive to international pressure than the Taliban."

Well, they were certainly a brutal group of infightering bastards last time they held power. Let's certainly hope they learned something. Or we'll just have to turn around and kick their asses as well.
 
2001-11-13 09:34:34 AM  
Good for them. It like being liberated from nazi-germany to afghanis. (Not that i lived thru nazi germany).

I hope the Northern Alliance don't go back to their crappy ways.
 
2001-11-13 09:37:04 AM  
To-ga! To-ga! To-ga!
 
2001-11-13 09:37:25 AM  
Mullah Omar allegedly took to the radio to call on all Taliban soldiers to remain loyal to their commanders and obey orders. (Heard this from a CBS correspondent.) Border posts are being abandoned.

Sounds to me like the Taliban are in near-total disarray. Rumours are that they are even abandoning Kandahar.

Afghans are, or soon will be, defecting in droves, and other than probably 3,000-4,000 hardcore Afghans and an equal number of hardcore Arabs, the forces Mullah Omar has under his command are volunteers who will probably run screaming at the first sign of gunfire. A guerrilla war in the hills is their only hope.

The Northern Alliance will likely be fairly lenient with former Taliban fighters in the interest of national unification, but I doubt any quarter will be given to the foreign mercenaries. The 100 killed in Mazar-e-Sharif were Pakistanis.

The rump Taliban forces will be afraid to light a cooking fire this winter.

The NA had trained 3,000 or so soldiers to serve as special security forces. Apparently they seemed to stop the looting that commenced when the Taliban left town. Unknown how many other Northern Alliance forces are in town.

Heather Mercer, the foreign aid worker that is a prisoner of the Taliban, is a hottie.

Shawn Pickrell
 
fb-
2001-11-13 09:37:30 AM  
It would have been nice if those peacenik good for nothing lazy ass hippies in the UN could have gotten their shiat together faster so we could have some sort of a working government to put into place.

Taliban isn't going to be around much longer. It's a shame the UN has let the world down again. Typical, UN drops the punch bowl and the US has to mop up the mess.
 
2001-11-13 09:37:50 AM  
I'm cool. I posted IN THE FUTURE ;)

Shawn
 
2001-11-13 09:41:01 AM  
Heh. With enough of a UN/US/whatever presence, the atrocities should be kept to a minimum, except against foreign mercenaries in Afghanistan.

Thing is a true coalition government requires Pashtun presence, and only now with the Northern Alliance firmly in control in Northern Afghanistan at least, will Pashtuns be willing to join the coalition government. I think that too will be sorted out in the next couple of weeks.

Shawn
 
2001-11-13 09:47:16 AM  
There were also signs that the Taliban were abandoning other urban centers, possibly to withdraw into the remote southern mountains to wage guerrilla war:


Now can we have you Peace-niks' approval to bomb the fark out of the mountains? Not much chance of civillians happening to be hanging around out there...
 
2001-11-13 09:48:18 AM  
TO REI:

I guess all your arguments about the bombing not being effective are all shot to hell now huh?
 
fb-
2001-11-13 09:51:38 AM  
Dr. Jones,

It's obvious that the bombings did nothing but kill civilians. They had no impact on the Taliban. Errr wait, you're telling me that thanks to the bombings, the previously ineffective Northern Alliance managed to take almost all of Afghanistan in less than a week?

Oh, nevermind.
 
2001-11-13 09:57:00 AM  
"WorldCitizen, the Northern Alliance, I think, is more capable of learning from past mistakes and is more responsive to international pressure than the Taliban."

The only mistake the Taliban made was being the party in power of a country that harboured a terrorist, and it only became a problem *after* that terrorist pissed a bunch of people off.

The whole thing with the women in carpets and exploding Buddhas made for good documentaries but had absolutely nothing to do with Bush's decision to start vaporizing their country.

Whatever incentive the NA has to treat people with a little bit of what we in the West would call respect has absolutely not much to do with the fact that the Taliban just lost a war.
 
2001-11-13 09:57:31 AM  
Great, but umm, what happened to that Osama Bin Laden guy?
 
2001-11-13 09:59:43 AM  
This is good news, but it's only step one. They gotta flush out all them caves now too. They gotta get them some Al Qeida.
 
2001-11-13 10:00:27 AM  
Did someone say France is surrendering?
 
2001-11-13 10:03:35 AM  
Did you see the footage last night of the NA dude grabbing
the tallyman's beard and just shaking the crap out of him.
A wee bit disturbing unless you're Jeff Dahmer.
 
2001-11-13 10:08:01 AM  
Now they just need Alpine speakers on that tank and a few illegal cassette tapes...just to rub it in....
 
2001-11-13 10:10:39 AM  
Is it me or does the NA seem a little bit over-willing to go along with the US's requests/demands? I mean, it would be great if they've changed, and who knows, what they've been through may make them wish for softer policies. Somehow though I'm a little suspicious that they're trying to kiss ass to get back in power and then abuse it. It would look pretty bad for us to reinstate them and then throw them out right away, wouldn't it?
 
2001-11-13 10:12:12 AM  
Stinkbug, if your beard wasn't a fist long, you got in jail. I bet the NA guy was gloating.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 10:13:52 AM  
Aranach,

I think they see that they have absolutely no choice but to go along with the US. We showed up and bombed for a month. Obviously they've never seen anything like that bombing and neither had the Taliban. They know that they wouldn't stand a chance against the Taliban if we stopped bombing and certainly wouldn't stand a chance if we started bombing them.

This is the best thing for them. Watch us bomb and then route the Taliban. When it's all over, the UN will give them a nice stake in the new government.

It's a win-win all around. Not listening to us will not help them and they know it.
 
2001-11-13 10:14:44 AM  
I was listening to NPR this morning on the way in and heard about this. They also aired a story about a Pashtun uprising in Kandahar. I we should start seeing wide spread defections by Afghan members of the Taliban now. As for the foreign fighters in the Taliban ranks, I say smoke em. I also don't agree with letting Taliban members join the new government. To me that is like letting former NAZIs join the post WWII post war German government. Then again it's not my country so it's not my decision to make so I guess they can include anyone they want in their government.
 
2001-11-13 10:19:05 AM  
Good good.. Now with the Taliban running and hiding in the mountains, it's going to be a lot easier to bomb the crap out of them. Especially now that winter is coming, heat from their equipment, cooking fires, themselves, etc. is going to make it very easy for surveillance planes to find them.


It seems rather fitting that India is celebrating Deepavali on Wednesday. We can only hope that the Alliance behaves itself.


Too bad Abdul Haq isn't still alive. And I was a little discouraged to hear that the Taliban still have our hostages. Grrr.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 10:21:26 AM  
Whether the moderate taliban is in or out is up to the UN. And they need to get their ass in gear. The Taliban has been routed and it won't be much longer before the NA claims the entire country. We need to get some sort of a farking plant and UN team in their stat.

The US and NA have almost completed their job. Time for the peaceniks to do their damn jobs now! If this dump descends into chaos, the UN has nobody but themselves to blame.
 
2001-11-13 10:23:00 AM  
I just think that we should do this right now that we've gotten ourselves into Afghanistan. We should push for a coalition government has hard as we possibly can. We have too much of a track record of going into these Middle Eastern countries, tearing things up a bit, and then leaving them in a mess that just comes back and bites us in the ass down the road.
 
2001-11-13 10:27:35 AM  
The US told northern alliance not to take Kabul because of Pakistan. There's going to be a big reaction. And for the people who don't know about Northern "Alliance", they are just as bad as Taliban and have been involved civilan massacres. But obviously US doesn't care who they unleash onto those poor people. Since its not in their interests. And I'm NOT a liberal, i just have a very deep hate for Northern Alliance.

And i see Fb- hasn't hestitated to drop his usual utter crap in this thread.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 10:29:03 AM  
WorldCitizen,

It's not up to the US to force any type of government on Afghanistan. It's up to the UN council to make that decision. Obviously the help and cooperation of the US is necessary and I'm sure we realize our duty and will give the UN that assistance. But it's up to the UN to get some sort of a plan in order now.
 
2001-11-13 10:30:06 AM  
Fb- i'm shocked, you made a well thought-out response in your last post *GASP*.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 10:31:06 AM  
ClownCollegeGraduate,

What the hell do you want?!?! The Taliban has been routed by the US and NA. It's up to the boys at the UN to step in before the NA gets too rowdy. The should have had this plan ready much much sooner, but nobody expected the US and NA to do the bang-up job they are doing.

Quit trying to blame the US for everything. It's up to the UN to come to a consensus on what the new Afghan government consists of.
 
2001-11-13 10:33:07 AM  
Well, -that- was inevitable. Did anyone seriously believe it would go any other way? Anyone at all?
 
2001-11-13 10:34:35 AM  
We have too much of a track record of going into these Middle Eastern countries, tearing things up a bit, and then leaving them in a mess that just comes back and bites us in the ass down the road.

Amen, WorldCitizen - if you ask me, that's a substantial part of what got us into this mess in the first place. It's not so much the fact that we've been involved in middle eastern politics as the manner in which we have involved ourselves.

Oh, and Fb-: The US and NA have almost completed their job.

Far from it. Our "job" wasn't so much to bring down the Taliban as to capture/kill those responsible for destroying the WTC. Crushing the Taliban is a small achievement in comparison, I would think.
 
2001-11-13 10:34:55 AM  
I just hope, I really hope, that the Taliban fleeing these cities is truly a victory and not indicative of some larger plan, perhaps to draw their enemies into their former territories and then detonate a nuclear device on their formerly held lands.

Not that I expect this, I just would be quite cautious about sending in the beer and boomboxes and partying alongside the NA just yet, is all.

I'm not surprised that the Talib army has folded, nor am I that the NA moved so quickly. In a war of attrition (which this has been for many, many years), the winner is the one with the best supply lines, and the NA just got a major shot in the arm from us supply and weapons-wise.

Did you see the videos of the NA using US made Colt AR-15s instead of their usual rusty Kalisnikovs? Hmm. Wonder where they got those from.
 
2001-11-13 10:36:39 AM  
Thanks for coming up with an intelligent reply. I DON'T hate the US, i have objections with some things they've done. So stop calling me everyone anti-US. I'm saying the US should be more authoritative towards NA. And tell them that it's not bombing Afghanistan for their sake and to keep out of areas where there are strong startegic in which they could take over the country. If they don't do this you could see US' biggest ally, Pakistan, getting very angry and squeezing their support.

You know and i know the UN is useless. No one listens to the UN. Thats why its imperitive for the US to stop NA.
 
2001-11-13 10:36:43 AM  
"It's not up to the US to force any type of government on Afghanistan. It's up to the UN council to make that decision. Obviously the help and cooperation of the US is necessary and I'm sure we realize our duty and will give the UN that assistance. But it's up to the UN to get some sort of a plan in order now."

Of course we should work thru the UN when it comes to putting Afghanistan back together. I would also argue that it is the brunt of the responsibility of the US to do this. It was us, afterall, that bombed the hell out of their country and overthrew their government. We didn't just sit back and allow Germany and Japan to sort things out after WWII. We seemed to have done a pretty decent job there.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 10:40:13 AM  
It's time for Kofi and friends in the UN to come to a decision. They need to seriously listen to and heed the input they get from other Arab nations and get a plan together that everybody finds relativly agreeable for the new Afghan government.

It's the US's job to continue their course of action with the NA and finish the Taliban. I'm certain that US, Canada, Britian, Germany, France, Russia and the rest will then know their next job which is to get in line and support the UN decision and help enforce it.

Remember though, the war is still not over. Slippy is right, there are going to be caves packed with Al Qaeda that we need to go in and deal with. The UN needs to do their job and be respectful of what we still have to do also.
 
2001-11-13 10:50:45 AM  
"``It is our hope that calm prevails and bloodshed is avoided. Pakistan holds to the view that the alliance forces must not occupy Kabul,'' Foreign Ministry spokesman Aziz Ahmed Khan said. "

This sounds like the intro to a Bob Newart sketch.

"They did what? They did, eh? 'Taliban ran like schoolgirls'? Oh. I see. *cough* Ahem. Well, then. Pakistan holds to the view that the alliance forces must not occupy Kanduhar."
 
2001-11-13 10:52:02 AM  
Now that the women can take their veils off I wish they would put them back on!
 
JMT
2001-11-13 10:57:43 AM  
I wonder how much longer until we are fighting these guys.
 
2001-11-13 11:03:59 AM  
This will be an amaizing message to send to the rest of the contries of the world who sponser terroriism. They should be thinking "Well if they can do it there than they can do it here to" Unfortunatly that is a bad thing right now. We the NA may have rolloed through most of Afghanistan but remeber the real battle is Kandahar. THATS where the Tliban has been all this time. Want to know why the tailban crumbled so quickly in Kabul? Its because they weren't there. Did you see the casualty numbers in the arcticle? It was some bogus number like 15 or less I cnat remeber. Just think about it for a second. First Taliban fights up North giving all the important people time to move to Kandahar along with the. Then this past week all of a sudden the NA breaks through. Its called a stratigic retreat and it doesn't mean victory. We'll get word very soon that this little fight in Afghan is far from over. Back to my first point other nations being "targeted" by the coalition against terrorism HAVE to be learning form the Taliban's mistaakes. I can just see Saddamms to do list today. "First abolish all rebels, Second fortify all postions around Bagdad, Third build underground bunker to hide in for 30 years a la blast from the past. We giving everybody else a heads up guys check out our strategy. We need to go low key right now and start the movement every where else. "This war will be fought on many fronts" from W's congresional address. Well live up to your words buddy boy cause right now we have our paants down in Afgan and our goods are wide open to everybody else. Just my 2 cents.

Funky_Thrasher for Hegemon.
 
2001-11-13 11:04:05 AM  
Wow, those Northern Alliance guys must be good fighters. They took over half the country in a few days!
 
2001-11-13 11:06:51 AM  
When the fightings is over, which it looks like will happen soon, an international muslim peacekeeping force will be placed in Afghanistan. Indonesia, Turkey, and Jordan have already offered troops for this purpose.

The U.S. still has to find Bin Laden his senior staff. When that is done phase II begins...Iraq. Also, Iran has sponsored more terrorism in the last twenty years than any other country, they might join the list too.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 11:07:58 AM  
Funky_Thrasher,

Yes, the Taliban has assembled the greatest fighting force the world has every seen and they are waiting for us in Kanduhar complete with nukes in what will certainly be the battle to end the universe.

That or they are a bunch of poorly trained goat farmers with little direction or supplies that have been thoroughtly routed by our bombing.

One or the other and we will certainly find out in a couple of days.
 
2001-11-13 11:11:20 AM  
Funky_Thrasher: I completely disagree, with U.S. airpower a strategic withdrawl is nearly impossible. From all reports coming from Afghanistan, their "withdrawl" is more like a rout. Chances are that the Taliban forces in Kandahar are weakened and demoralized. It will fall very quickly. Probably within the next few days, a week at most. What will take time will be rooting out the pockets of resistance from the mountains.
 
2001-11-13 11:15:09 AM  
If the UN fails, its because the US wouldn't let it succeed.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 11:19:32 AM  
Brooklynguy: If the UN doesn't get a plan in place soon, it's the US's fault.

fb-: Why? How do you know? Can you see the future?

Brooklynguy: Because the US is doodie heads and I hate them.
 
2001-11-13 11:23:38 AM  
OK. I now have a home. Damnit, I was having fun trying to hijack the boobies thread. ;)

We await reaction from Pakistan and the world ...

Shawn
 
2001-11-13 11:27:13 AM  
To the NA's credit, if the capital of the country I'm trying to take over is completely undefended, then I'm going to waltz in, and ask forgiveness from the US and Pakistan later. Capturing Kabul with virtually no loss of life is simply too tempting to pass up.
 
2001-11-13 11:29:24 AM  
I just love how everyone said that the taliban was so tough. look at these pathetic bastards - they are retreating and havent put up a fight yet.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 11:31:25 AM  
You all know what we have to get ready for next.... Ahhhhh yeeeeaahhhhh...




BOMBS OVER BAGHDAD


[Dre]

1, 2.. 1, 2, 3; yeah!
Inter-national, underground
Thunder pounds when I stomp the ground (Woo!)
Like a million elephants with silverback orangutans
You can't stop a train
Who want some? Don't come un-pre-pared
I'll be there, but when I leave there
Better be a household name
Weather man tellin' us it ain't gon' rain
So now we sittin' in a drop-top, soakin wet
In a silk suit, tryin' not to sweat
Hits somersaults without the net
But this'll be the year that we won't forget
One-Nine-Nine-Nine, and brutha anything goes, be whatchu wanna be
Long as you know consequences, to give and for livin' defenses
Too hot, I'm jumpin' jail
Too low to dig, I might just touch hell
HOT! Get a life, now they gon' sell
Then I might catch you a spell, look at what came in the mail
A scale and some Arm and Hammer, so grow grid and some baby máma
Black Cadillac and a pack of pampers
Stack of question with no answers
Cure for cancer, cure for AIDS
Make a nubian wanna stay on tour for days
Get back home, things are wrong
We're not really able to spend all alone
before he left, (?), to a ball of power
Thousands of thousands miles per hour
Hello, ghetto, let your brain breathe,
believe there's always more, ahhhhh!


Chorus: 2X
[Dre] Don't pull the thang out, unless you plan to bang
{Choir} Bombs over Baghdad!
[Dre] Yeah! Ha ha yeah!
Don't even bang unless you plan to hit something

{Choir} Bombs over Baghdad!
{Dre} Yeah! Uhh-huh
 
2001-11-13 11:34:41 AM  


Did somebody mention Jawa and a tank? TripleR?
 
2001-11-13 11:44:23 AM  
Fb- the two "singers" in that picture have more sense then you. They also talk more sense then you. That's a fact. Trust me.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 11:51:47 AM  
Yes, my opinions are garbage. Unlike your 'blame America for everything that happens and I hope they get their American asses kicked' stance.

I distinctly remember you saying how the US was going to get wiped out by the Taliban and this will be another Vietnam. Didn't happen.

Then I remember you saying that the bombing was ineffective and was only killing civilians. Clearly wasn't the case either.

Now you are blaming the US for your anticipated failure of the UN. We will see won't we.
 
2001-11-13 11:59:38 AM  
Not only would the leaders of the NA have trouble getting the troops not to move in (this isn't a highly disciplined force), but they seem to have done a reasonable job in doing so--stopping looting, keeping the place running. If they declare this makes them the rulers of Afghanistan, that is too far, but even scarier than either Kabul under the Taliban or Kabul under the NA is Kabul with no one in charge.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 11:59:47 AM  
11-13-01 10:36:39 AM ClownCollegeGraduate
...I'm saying the US should be more authoritative towards NA. No one listens to the UN. Thats why its imperitive for the US to stop NA.


I'm glad to see that you know more about the relationship the US has with NA than anybody else in the world. Where exactly did you get your information concerning our directives, if any to the NA?

Oh well, way to hop on the, 'if there are any problems in the new government, it's the US's fault. I know this before it happens' train.

Now that the bombing has proven to be effective and the Taliban are all but defeated, you guys have to get a new reason to be ultra-critical of the US.
 
2001-11-13 12:09:33 PM  
So, does this mean we're still on track to turn Afghanistan into a parking lot?

I think the really important questions here are:
When does the first McDonalds open in Kabul?
Will Microsoft get exclusive software distribution rights in Afghanistan now?
When do the first Haliburton oil rigs open?

Does it really matter what the make up of the post Taliban government is? As long as it dances on the strings of the Western Free Market, that's all that really counts... isn't it?

Well, isn't it?
 
2001-11-13 12:10:18 PM  
ClownCollegeGraduate: "Trust Me" !?!?!? You sound like a used car salesman. (No offense to any used car salesmen that may be offended.)
 
fb-
2001-11-13 12:11:17 PM  
Blubberknife,

To answer your questions,

Next week.
Yes.
Next week.

Yes.
 
2001-11-13 12:15:33 PM  
Now maybe the bombing can stop soon enough to get some relief to the 8 million starving people before winter comes and kills half of them. But maybe not. Who cares? As long as we prove that no wrong can justify the taking of innocent lives, it's worth a few million innocent lives.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 12:17:32 PM  
Boorite,

That's the spirit!! Demonize America for stuff that hasn't even happened and might not happen!

Way to go!
 
2001-11-13 12:17:44 PM  
I do sincerely hope that they capture the Taliban government and allow some Afghan women to do a tap dance on their nuts.
 
2001-11-13 12:18:52 PM  
Hasn't happened? You might want to ask Oxfam, Christian Aid, the ICRC, and Human Rights Watch about that. Those people were already hanging on a thin lifeline, and we cut it.
 
2001-11-13 12:19:37 PM  
Demonizing America for all the wrongs in the world is about as dumb as believing that America is responsible for none of the wrongs in the world.
 
2001-11-13 12:20:00 PM  
Sic'em FB, make them think instead of blindly persecuting the country they live in. SFLs suck, unthinking SFLs suck more.
 
2001-11-13 12:22:14 PM  
I'm begining to think Fb- has MPS. Sometimes he makes totally rational and logical arguments, other times he tries to use pure emotion, at which he becomes laughable. I don't get it...

When he's being irrational and hateful, I want the Taliban to destroy the US army just to spite him. But then I remember all our guys down there, all those lives...

From the way we're seeing this, it looks like a chessboard. It's far too easy to forget the pain and suffering of the people in Afghanistan, of all kinds.
 
2001-11-13 12:22:21 PM  
Food has now run out for many Afghan people

Sorry to criticize the state some of you love so much, but this IS a democracy.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 12:22:44 PM  
Boorite,

See, I have a different view and you might want to think about this. We have managed to route those farks before the shiat kicking part of winter comes. If the NA and the bombing can manage to chase those farks into the mountains, and it looks like it may, then it will be humanitarian relief city for Afghanistan. All those groups will have unfettered access to the entire country!
 
Eli
2001-11-13 12:25:11 PM  
FB-

Can you go over to Slashdot and talk some sense into those bozos as well?
 
2001-11-13 12:25:36 PM  
P.S. Not that I believe anyone was demonizing the US for all of the wrongs in the world. I was more or less pointing out how some recognize no wrongs.
 
2001-11-13 12:25:49 PM  
Lartrak:

"When he's being irrational and hateful, I want the Taliban to destroy the US army just to spite him. But then I remember all our guys down there, all those lives... "


Are you in elementary school?
 
2001-11-13 12:25:50 PM  
 
fb-
2001-11-13 12:27:07 PM  
I support feeding those people, and I don't want anybody to starve, regardless of how you characterize me.

But fellas, it's a war. A real war. We can't be successful if we stop the war for 5 months out of the year so relief groups can come in and have their supplies stolen by the Taliban.

We should look to make concessions where possible, but stopping the war entirely will lead to a quick defeat for us.

The humanitarian groups should be seriously talking with the UN about getting all the supplies they can in to NA controlled northern Afghanistan ASAP!
 
2001-11-13 12:27:45 PM  
Hooray, another puppet government installed by our nation. To bad the last one in Afghanistan that we installed turned out to be little shiats.

I wonder how long it will take this government to get pissed at us too?
 
2001-11-13 12:29:41 PM  
Bildo: No, I just have many very evil thoughts. I have to constantly fight my evil nature. It's tough.
 
2001-11-13 12:30:37 PM  
See, I have a different view and you might want to think about this. We have managed to route those farks before the shiat kicking part of winter comes.

Exactly as I said I hoped, FB-. What I am angry about is that few people seem to care. I don't see much talk about it here. I mean we're talking about millions of people, and it barely seems to register. I scoured the whole Washington Post this Sunday-- not a single mention that I could find. And yet something like six pages on the anthrax scare alone, for example. Whole feature stories, one each, on two of the victims. So that's why I find it highly perverse when Dubya (or Clinton or anyone else) pontificates about how innocent deaths are never justified. They mean innocent American deaths, I think.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 12:30:57 PM  
Boorite,

Be real. You honestly expect everybody in that country to instantly drop their guns and play by the rules of the humanitarian aid groups? This is Afghanistan, not Disney Land.

I'm afraid that the Taliban would simply use a break in the bombing and regroup, grab food, blankets and aid from the relief groups and then mount a counter offensive against the NA.
 
2001-11-13 12:31:04 PM  
Yes! Praise Allah, now the children can finally play with the kites! It is all worthwhile!
 
2001-11-13 12:31:29 PM  
Fb- Are you sure you're one person? You usually seem to be way out to the extreme, and now you are actually sounding rational. What gives?
 
2001-11-13 12:31:52 PM  
yet another thread that could have been insightful and intelligent is ruined by the namecalling and overbearance of one person who sadly has that need to be the center of attention.

see ya after work...
-Ar
 
fb-
2001-11-13 12:33:10 PM  
MrTuffPaws,

That's why the United Nations is taking the lead role with other arab countries input in developing a real government in Afghanistan. It obviously is going to require support from a UN collation of troops from America, Russia, Britian, Germany, Australia and the like to make everybody play nice for a while, but this isn't some US puppet regime.
 
2001-11-13 12:37:19 PM  
I support feeding those people, and I don't want anybody to starve, regardless of how you characterize me.

I didn't address my sarcastic "who cares" to you, Fb-, but if you want to take it personally, maybe you have your reasons. Who am I to say?

You say you support feeding those people but that we can't pause the bombing to enable relief agencies to operate. So it seems to me-- and tell me if there's another conclusion that can be drawn-- that you are saying, if a few million innocent people die, that's too bad, because we need to bomb. That's exactly what strikes me as so perverse about all this. I mean here's the President saying that no state can justify taking innocent lives, no matter what wrong they are redressing, and here we are doing exactly that.
 
2001-11-13 12:39:36 PM  
"I mean we're talking about millions of people, and it barely seems to register. "

Remember when a half million Africans were butchered in genocidal tribal warfare? If you do, you're one of the rare ones. 90%+ of Americans didn't even know it happened.

That happened, the UN did basically nothing. Why did the UN (US, really. 85% of the troops were American) get involved in Yugoslavia? Well, I guess I should stop getting off topic. Sorry.
 
2001-11-13 12:40:39 PM  
Be real. You honestly expect everybody in that country to instantly drop their guns and play by the rules of the humanitarian aid groups? This is Afghanistan, not Disney Land.

I'm still not seeing where the Taliban's lawlessness justifies ours.
 
2001-11-13 12:41:38 PM  
I wish they would just hurry up and bomb the rest of those dirty non-white people into oblivion. We're losing sight of our goals here! Get with the program!
As soon as we get some aid workers in there for a photo op, with some smiling Afghans next to them, we can get back to the serious business of turning the globe into a corporate whorehouse.

Just Do It!
 
2001-11-13 12:42:22 PM  
Taliban - We will fall back into the mountains, and murder any American troops that enter!

Powell - Troops? What do you think this is, 1945? We're just gonna bomb your ass using missles fired from submarines.

Taliban - What is a...submarine?
 
fb-
2001-11-13 12:42:53 PM  
Boorite,

I'm saying that the war comes first. There has to be a more creative solution that stop all bombing or everybody will starve. The bombing is not going to stop. Sorry, it's not. The humanitarian groups, the NA, UN and US need to find a creative solution to help as many people as possible.

Taking the entire northern part of Afghanistan and stopping the bombing of all northern cities poses a wonderful opportunity for the UN and humanitarian groups to focus their efforts to flood northern afghanistan with food and supplies. Hopefully the world can get out that the people of afghanistan need to high tail it to the northern cities and relief camps if they want to make it through the winter.

The Southern part of the country will be nasty. There is still a war there. If you want to hold out there, be prepared to make due with US HDR drops. If not, high tail it to Pakistan or northern Afghanistan, because I assure you the bombing will not stop.
 
2001-11-13 12:44:11 PM  
But fellas, it's a war. A real war.

I won't argue with you there, but I did find it interesting that our new pal President Musharraf said in a WP interview this Sunday that he did not consider this a real war. This thing is getting spun every which way. Again, no argument with you here.
 
2001-11-13 12:52:55 PM  
There is plenty of food in Afghanistan. All the innocent Afghan's have to do is eat the dead Taliban soldiers.
 
2001-11-13 12:54:05 PM  
Fb- I'm curious, do you have a job or are you on an off day or what?
 
fb-
2001-11-13 01:03:16 PM  
I'm at work. It just gets slow sometimes when you have a job manually masturbating caged animals for artificial insemination.
 
nez
2001-11-13 01:09:12 PM  
Hmm. Well you opened yourself up for a kick there Fb, but it's early and I don't feel like making personal attacks yet.

*yawn*




*stretch*
 
2001-11-13 01:13:23 PM  
manually masturbating caged animals

So you're in Marketing?
 
2001-11-13 01:17:38 PM  
Here are a few things I've been wondering about?

A)Will the U.S. require the NA to treat women any better?

www.rawa.org

B) If the NA and US have Kabul...wouldnt it make sense to set up a perimeter and provide relief to all inside that gaurded area?(May not be a perfect solution but it helps)

C)As everyone yells for Afghanistan relief North Korea slides further into its own famine because all the aid is going to Afghanistan because of their "high profile nature"


There are an endless number of problems here and few viable solutions. Poverty + desperation + fundamentalists = Oppression which inevitably leads to disaster... Happened in Germany for WW1 & WW2...

To Lartrack - Palpot right? the Hitler of Cambodia


The US, in my humble opinion, SHOULD be pushing for UN sanctioning of the government, but that's only half of it. stability is needed, and stability requires some sort of commerce (barter or otherwise). Afghanistan is a SERIOUS commitment, and if we expect to just extract Osama and run... It aint gonna happen.

Just my slant on things.

PS. Support our troops.. Being a soldier isnt easy, especially in situations like this.

Rapier
 
nez
2001-11-13 01:23:45 PM  
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0111/14/world/world4.html

Here's a link on Drudge - different view on how people are "celebrating".
 
2001-11-13 01:24:44 PM  
"Palpot" should be Pol Pot aka Saloth Sar...my apologies

He ran the "killing fields" of Cambodia. He killed over 1 MILLION people... and yet so few people have ever even heard of him. Scary stuff.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 01:30:30 PM  
Boorite,

Close, IT.
 
2001-11-13 01:41:30 PM  
In 1984, after Ismail Khan killed several hundred Soviet advisors and their families, the Soviets replied by destroying 50-75% of Herat via bomber raids. Thousands died.

How many civilians have the Taliban said are dead? 1,000? 2,000? In ALL of Afghanistan?



How many social democrats are in Afghanistan right now? I'm sure we'd support the faction in Afghanistan that wants a Western-style liberal democracy IF THERE WERE ONE!!!!!

Fb-:

Desperate men do desperate things. The counteroffensive would be routed, quickly.

Fb- takes a pause from impregnating celebrity women:

This is true. The bombing in the northern part of the country, which is the hardest-hit area of the country, can essentially cease.

The US engaging in a war of self-defence is NOT illegal, BTW.

Shawn Pickrell
 
2001-11-13 01:48:40 PM  
"How many social democrats are in Afghanistan right now?"

Interesting question... Ever heard of the Southern Alliance? I was reading about it a week or so ago, and it seems that there IS a Southern Alliance made up of those pushing for Democracy in Afghanistan. I don't know what the viability of this group is, but it does exist. The leader moved to the US when the Taliban took control, and has been in contact since we started bombing(He's a professor of politics @ URI if I'm not mistaken). I wonder why we aren't supporting THEM?


Just some food for thought.

Rapier
 
2001-11-13 01:52:14 PM  
Fb-: HELP!! MY DATA IS AN ERROR!!!
 
2001-11-13 01:52:59 PM  
Rapier, if the Southern Alliance were effective AT ALL, wouldn't he be trying to organise something?

It may exist, but its size/strength is doubtful at best.

Shawn
 
fb-
2001-11-13 02:01:32 PM  
Looks like most of this conversation is moot now. The NA wants to turn Kabul over to the UN for discussions to establish a new government and the UN has accepted.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/13/gen.war.against.terror/index.html
 
fb-
2001-11-13 02:07:59 PM  
Boorite,

Tape that and replay it a few thousand times and you have my day.
 
2001-11-13 02:19:07 PM  
Wow, isn't it amazing how the left makes such outragous claims:

Flaming Liberal - Afghanistan will be another Vietnam!

Rational Human - No, it will be over in weeks.

FL - The American people will not stand for U.S. military casualties

RH - So far about 85% of Americans say they would accept a long war, but at least in Afghanistan it doesn't look like that will happen.

FL - Look at all of the dead civilians. The taliban say it's true so it must be!

RH - There were some bombs that went astray, but no where near the number the taliban claim.

FL - The Northern Alliance has taken Kabul now they will control the country and rape all the men and eat all of the women, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!!!

RH - The Northern Alliance has agreed to the UN setting up a provisional government. Here's another link to go with Fb's

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,38633,00.html

FL - Well, the U.S. brought this on ourselves.

RH - No, the taliban brought this on themselves, and hopefully Iraq will be next.
 
fb-
2001-11-13 02:32:58 PM  
Bildo,

You just summed up over 10,000 posts on fark. Outstanding!
 
2001-11-13 02:39:44 PM  
Shawn, aka Stpickrell,

Entirely a possibility, I am just amazed how much more there is to EVERY story than meets the eye.



Rapier
 
Rei
2001-11-13 02:59:37 PM  
Wow, isn't it amazing how the left makes such outragous claims:

Flaming Liberal - Afghanistan will be another Vietnam!
Rational Human - No, it will be over in weeks.


Well, congrats, it's already been more than a few weeks ;) Oh, and just last friday, we were reporting 30-40k left in the taliban. I guess they've just magically dissapeared, as has al Qaeda, and we'll never hear from them again, and the Northern Alliance won't committ more atrocities like they're famous for, and we'll all live on flower petals and eat gumdrops all day now, right? :)

FL - The American people will not stand for U.S. military casualties
RH - So far about 85% of Americans say they would accept a long war, but at least in Afghanistan it doesn't look like that will happen.


Nice deception. The number drops down to the mid-60s when you add to the survey the words "involving large numbers of american casualties". And, this is before there have even been significant military casualties.

FL - Look at all of the dead civilians. The taliban say it's true so it must be!
RH - There were some bombs that went astray, but no where near the number the taliban claim.


Laf, that's why the US media can walk in the streets of kabul and watch people being pulled out from under rubble all across Kabul, Kandahar, Mazar-e-sharif, etc... why the US has obliterated entire villages, and reporters searching through the rubble finding nothing of military value, only women's clothes, children's toys, etc. Why we get a new, either US or UN confirmed report each day of somewhere between 10-100 civilian deaths, and these are just what's being reported. Why we've (confirmed) taken out hospitals (note the plural), dams, schools (in session), shrines, directly inadvertedly bombed civilian neigborhoods several times, and destroyed literally hundreds of buildings from shock waves alone. Oh, no, that's just a myth, we're faking the confirmations. Noone would get hurt, droping bombs downtown in cities the size of philadelphia!

And, this is neglecting the stopping of shipments of food to 6 million hungry people, the prevention of shipments of getting to mountain passes where 500,000 people will be stranded for the winter and food won't be able to get to, etc. This neglects the addition of new landmines to the landscape that look like children's toys. Oh, but we're saints and the afghans love us, right?

Get a clue. Visit www.rawa.org, for a local perspective (just so you know, rawa is an organization which despises the taliban and al qaeda, and regularly has members executed by the taliban)

FL - The Northern Alliance has taken Kabul now they will control the country and rape all the men and eat all of the women, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria!!!

RH - The Northern Alliance has agreed to the UN setting up a provisional government. Here's another link to go with Fb's


Read about the history of the alliance at rawa's site. And they've already done to us what they've been doing for years, making claims and then breaking them. Just like they claimed they'd stay out of kabul until there was a government set up, and then went in. Or, they'd allow the taliban in a joint government, and now suddenly changed their minds. Or how they would follow human rights laws, and there've already been hundreds of executions and abductions reported by the UN in Mazar-e-sharif, a city that is mostly *their own people*.

FL - Well, the U.S. brought this on ourselves.
RH - No, the taliban brought this on themselves, and hopefully Iraq will be next.


What did the Taliban do to bring this on themselves? Ally with bin Laden? Well, then we should bomb the alliance too, since they were his first allies, and a number of them are terrorists. Not listen to the demands that the US made that no country on earth would ever have accepted were the tables turned? Give me a break.

Oh, but the US's starving of millions of people in Iraq to try and make them revolt, the sanctions condemned by the UN, didn't help cause 9/11. Nor did the US's state-sanctioned terrorism in other countries like Nicaragua, for which we were twice convicted by the world court, and which we overrode our sentances with our security council veto power. Our neglect for world support, our knee-jerk vigilanteeism, our sponsorship of unpopular regimes, none of this had any effect, right?
 
2001-11-13 03:08:27 PM  
hmm. I guess god didn't protect them afterall.
WHADDAYA KNOW?
 
2001-11-13 03:49:40 PM  
Rei: I was dissapointed you never replied to my reply to your reply to my post on the thread a couple of days ago.

First off, I would like to know where you are seeing all this about our bombing civilian sites like a school in session, how about some links? And I'm sorry but as much as I feel bad for the wonderful ladies at rawa.org, I do not trust anything they report any more than I trust the Taliban, though I certainly feel compassion for them. They are not exactly an unbiased source of information, they have a pretty obvious agenda, even if it is a righteous one.

As for the comments about the U.S. starving 500,000 Iraqi civilians with our sanctions, I am extremely tired of hearing about this. While it may not be a nice thing to have sanctions, it is far from the U.S.'s fault that all those people have no food. Saddam Hussein has billions of dollars, in the last 10 years he has built something like 40 or 50 palaces, and he seems more than competent at smuggling black market oil. I think it is pretty obvious that if he had any sort of inclination to feed his people, he would be more than able to do that. But I guess that would not be as effective of a way to appeal to liberal sentiments as showing the poor starving children of Irag in order to get the sanctions lifted.

In regards to all the questions about how nice the Northern Alliance is and how many troops the Taliban has.... It is obvious from the events of the past 2 months and from everything I've read about Afghanis that if the people of Afghanistan can be counted on for anything it is for betting on a winner. The more and more obvious it is that the Taliban will lose, the more and more people defect from their ranks. Also, the Northern Alliance are not fools. They have seen for themselves the destructive power of the American military and I doubt that they would like to see themselves on the receiving end of that any time soon. So, even if they would rather pillage, murder, rape and destroy, I think they will not as it is obviously not in their best interests to do so.

Lastly, on the issue of not getting humanitarian relief to all the starving and cold people of Afghanistan. Obviously, the Taliban is/was not very concerned about the health and happiness of the people. If they were in control of the country, the people would starve anyway. So, we could have been super-extra-special careful about where we bombed and made sure the infrastructure was undamaged so food and aid could go to all the people; but then have all that food and aid confiscated by the Taliban; and draw the conflict out and thus have the people in this situation for a long time. Or we could have done what we did; which is go all out, take out the Taliban and cause the people a little extra hardship for a short amount of time so that we could then open the country completely to UN and other organization's aid workers and allow humanitarian relief to flow freely without being obstructed by a bunch of bad guys. I think the second way is better, and I would bet most Afghanis think so too.
 
2001-11-13 04:02:32 PM  
Here goes Fb- on his tireless crusade against intelligence and truth. Slithering out of his hole to make up more information and to fetter the truth. I NEVER once commented on the US being "wiped out", this being another Vietnam or "Taliban sliding to victory". As described by FatTulip, you're just a media drone. I used to laugh at your posts since i thought you were joking about the way you defend EVERYTHING America does, but the last few weeks have changed my mind sooo much.
 
Rei
2001-11-13 04:25:25 PM  
Dr. Jones:

Ah, so... you *don't* trust rawa, who is on the ground in afghanistan and has been since the 70's, but you instead will trust reports from the US government, who's major intelligence gathering agency - the CIA - has publicly stated that they don't even have a *single* pashtu or dari speaker amongst them, let alone someone who knows about their culture? That seems... a little weak.

As to all of the articles, I read CNN and MSNBC's complete coverage in their US and Europe editions daily (except weekends), as well as part of ABC's and Fox's coverage. I believe I have a picture on my computer that I saved of a boy running away from the school; would you like me to upload it? I don't have the article that came with it.

Oh, and please forgive me if I don't know what reply you're talking about, I don't get online much on the weekends (I do a little, sometimes).

As for the comments about the U.S. starving 500,000 Iraqi civilians with our sanctions, I am extremely tired of hearing about this. While it may not be a nice thing to have sanctions, it is far from the U.S.'s fault that all those people have no food. Saddam Hussein has billions of dollars, in the last 10 years he has built something like 40 or 50 palaces, and he seems more than competent at smuggling black market oil.

And... he'd get away with it *how*, if there weren't sanctions on the country? We're not starving him of money, he can just siphon it off of what is left of an economy; he has the US to blame. Sadam is seen throughout even most of the Arab world as a cruel, brutal man. But continuing with a policy that does, even if indirectly, even if it is Saddam's fault, lead to an extreme level of punishment of Iraqi civilians that would not be occurring in normal circumstances, without an apparent negative effect to the person we're trying to depose, is hugely irresponsible. The UN recognises this; why can't we?

Also, the Northern Alliance are not fools. They have seen for themselves the destructive power of the American military and I doubt that they would like to see themselves on the receiving end of that any time soon.

Then why are they openly defying the US on two critical issues - the siezure of Kabul and the allowing of a broad-based coalition? To be quite honest, they're showing all signs of seing themselves as either essential, or invulnerable.

Obviously, the Taliban is/was not very concerned about the health and happiness of the people. If they were in control of the country, the people would starve anyway.

Actually, if you look at history (and the present), the NA has a far, far worse record of interfereing with humanitarian assistance. Just look at what they did with Mazar e Sharif just this weekend - siezed all of the aid from agencies in the cities, and an entire approaching convoy. They've been doing this for ages.

The Taliban has actually shown a surprising degree of care for at least their pashtun citizens. They actually evacuated areas around their bases (I have a picture of one such area, from another article) that were at risk of getting hit after some initial residential-area hits early on, and moved most of their equiptment from the city to the countryside (several on-the-ground reports from CNN reporters, when asked about claims our government was making that they were hiding equiptment in civilian areas).

and I would bet most Afghanis think so too.

Most afghans in Kabul at least fear the NA - that's why the Taliban was welcomed, mainly because, well, they weren't the NA. Kabul is filled with people who stepped on NA landmines just by walking across the city; had all of their family destroyed in intertribal battles, or as part of a systematic purge by one of several commanders; knew women who were abducted and/or gang raped by northern alliance troops and commanders; or a number of other things. I can get you a few dozen articles on this without any effort if you'd like.
 
2001-11-13 04:27:58 PM  
I think that Fb is unfairly ostracized on these boards. I have yet to see how anything he says can be characterized as crazy or off the wall, on the contrary most of what he says makes a lot of sense and is very logical. He supports the U.S. and generally believes that we are doing the right thing; big deal. I think that most people can use a dose of that, it seems to me that most people on this board are way too cynical about everything we do and think every action we make has some ulterior motive or that we are just bad guys in everything. We might not do everything right but it seems to me that we at least have our hearts in the right place and we go to great pains to make sure to the best of our abilities to do what is right while still accomplishing what we need to do, like destroying the Taliban.
 
2001-11-13 04:43:04 PM  
Rei:

I never said I trust the U.S. governments reports above all others. Again, like rawa and the Taliban, the U.S. government as a clear agenda and are very biased. I will only believe something if there has been independent verification.

As for the NA seizing Kabul, I don't think that a group that is looking out for their own interests automatically makes them bad. Luckily for them there was no one in control of the city when the Taliban left and this gave them a legitimate motive for entering the city; whether this was their true motive or not. My point was, the NA does not seem suicidal like the Taliban and is not going to completely defy the U.S., though I am not surprised that they are maneuvering within certain bounds to bolster their political position for any future Afghan government. As to a broad based coalition, I was under the impression that this is what we want.

Look, I don't think the NA are good guys. i think they are bad guys too. But luckily they are sane bad guys that know when to say when and are smart enough to see what direction the wind is blowing and piss accordingly.

As for Saddam Hussein, I'm not saying the situation in Iraq is all his fault; that is as naive as saying it is all because of the sanctions. All I was saying is that it is ridiculous to lay the blame for half a million dead Iraqi's at the doorstep of the White House. Hopefully, he will be the next step in all of this as many people in the administration would like. He is a major part of the problem as is our sanctions (which cause a great deal of the Arab resentment towards us) and hopefully we can do that right this time around.
 
2001-11-13 05:03:06 PM  
Continuing the sanctions in Iraq merely allows Saddam to write more pages in his Book of Lies. On this I can agree.

Rei, how many social democrats are there in Afghanistan right now?

You seem to enjoy minimising the atrocities of the Taliban. I think www.rawa.org has much on the atrocities of the Taliban.

"Evidence emerges of massacres by retreating Taleban forces in the central town of Bamiyan, which they have totally destroyed."

Shawn Pickrell
 
Rei
2001-11-13 05:07:15 PM  
Dr.Jones:

When looking at a motivation (remember - you're getting information from somewhere, so you need to determine: which group has the most reasonable motivation?), it is important to look at what goals they're trying to accomplish, and how good of sources of information they're trying to bring.

Motivation:
US government: keep everyone united behind the president, keep supporting the war.
Rawa: bring democracy and peace to afghanistan
US Media: Get the highest ratings possible by pandering to as wide of a US cross section as possible.

Well, looking at the motivations, the US government is obviously the worst. The US media simply reflects what the 80% or so of americans that currently support the war feel. Rawa, on the other hand, their motivation sounds like what an almost ideal information source would be here.

And, if you look at information available to the groups, Rawa wins hands down. So.. I have to question how they're a worse source than the other possibilities.

Look, I don't think the NA are good guys. i think they are bad guys too. But luckily they are sane bad guys that know when to say when and are smart enough to see what direction the wind is blowing and piss accordingly.

I'm surprised you haven't started questioning that view looking at how they've just started a new policy of openly defying the US ;)

As for Iraq, I agree - as I was saying before, we can't lay all of the blame on the US. However, to pretend that we don't deserve a good portion of the blame, is just wrong.
 
2001-11-13 05:14:35 PM  
Rei:

other than the NA killing 100 Taliban soldiers in Mazar-e Sharif, what atrocities have been committed so far, over the past 72 hours?

Where are the rallies calling for the Taliban to return? It seems people are pretty happy the Taliban are gone.

When the Taliban fled Kabul, what did you want to happen? What should've happened?

Shawn Pickrell
 
fb-
2001-11-13 05:49:10 PM  
Rei,

What needs to be done to get even with they US for all their crimes? How can we make the US pay?
 
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