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(KnoxNews)   A poorly conceived Tennessee law is likely to lead to the miscarriage of justice   (knoxnews.com) divider line 80
    More: Asinine, miscarriage of justice, Bill Haslam, embryos  
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26077 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Apr 2012 at 1:27 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-04-25 01:36:27 AM  
8 votes:
Britney Spear's Speculum: 1) Nice headline
2) Why? This has nothing to do with abortion.


It will, though. That's the thing you're not seeing. This is just a stepping stone.

Personhood is ramping up hardcore to promote their stupidity in Tennessee now since it failed in Mississippi. They've got a huge boost in the East Tennessee religious right, where people like Campfield keep getting elected from. Already, they tried passing a bill to force doctors who provide abortive services to have admitting privledges, because they were - in the words of one Representative "flying from out of state, performing the abortion, then flying back to avoid Tennessee laws". Even though there is no documented case of this happening, ever.
2012-04-25 02:06:46 AM  
5 votes:
"Rep. Matthew Hill, R-Jonesborough, said Democrats were "playing the 'what if' game" he knows of no unwarranted "horrible instances" of prosecution in other states with similar laws covering embryos."

Clearly, Matthew Hill is not a lawyer, and has no imagination. 'What if' needs to be carefully considered for pretty much all laws, but sadly is not. It's harder to remove a law than make it, as we Farkers know too well =/
2012-04-25 01:32:19 AM  
5 votes:
FTFA:"Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy."

bullshiat.
2012-04-25 02:34:42 AM  
4 votes:

TheJoe03: FatalDischarge: When will this religion nonsense stop?

I honestly think they see the writing on the wall and realize their ideology wont win out in the long term, so they are trying to push as much as they can right now since this is their best shot at it. These wackos aren't that big of a part of Gen X or Y, so when the old folks die off so should their craziness.


That is just a false hope and needs to just go away. There is always going to be a cohort of individuals that were unfortunately raised in an environment that brews the crazy.

Monkey see, monkey do. I've seen enough of my generation (I'm Generation Y) preach to me and try to convert my savage ways of logical thinking. It may just be me living in Tennessee, but from what I've seen, its going to continue for a long time and it is very unfortunate.
2012-04-25 02:11:50 AM  
4 votes:

Britney Spear's Speculum: 1) Nice headline
2) Why? This has nothing to do with abortion.


The law if it stands establishes a legal precedent for considering an embryo a life, which could conceivably allow for a basis for pushing anti abortion legislation both locally and nationally (both by having other state laws modeled after it and, if upheld by a court, it could be referenced in other court cases )
2012-04-25 02:00:39 AM  
4 votes:

TheOnion: Since it excludes anything the pregnant woman or a doctor may do, I guess it is technically ok.


For now. But this law is intended to go one step further from an existing law that says killing a "viable fetus" is a crime. How many years before they just decide to strip that excemption out entirely?

That is the danger for laws like this. It's not just about what the law itself means, its the direction the law is trying to take. It's "mission creep".
2012-04-25 01:56:49 AM  
4 votes:
Hmm, this law seems to go directly against the bible itself. Damn republican heathens.

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

Exodus is clear that a murderer receive capital punishment, but killing a foetus is not punished with death. This is the closest the Bible comes to commenting on abortion; Judaism's refusal to unequivocally condemn abortion stems from this.
2012-04-25 08:58:16 AM  
3 votes:

Car_Ramrod:

"There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.


It is true - women who are already in abusive relationships tend to experience a greater intensity of abuse if/when they get pregnant and in the worst cases this leads to murder.

However bills like this are more a form of concern trolling - you don't see the supporters of these bills fighting for tougher domestic violence laws, funding for womens shelters or public education to address domestic violence.
2012-04-25 02:37:41 AM  
3 votes:

GuidoDelConfuso: Car_Ramrod: Loucifer: What if the embryo is coming right at me? I can stand my ground, right?

That actually brings up a good question: a person knows the woman is pregnant. She attacks him, and in self defense he kills her, knowing full well the fetus will die as well. Is he prosecuted?

That is a good question. On the face of it, the answer would seem to be no, since self-defense is an affirmative defense to murder. However, self-defense only applies when you kill your attacker. You might try to argue necessity, but necessity is never a defense to murder. On the other hand, allowing murder charges for the fetus to stand against somebody who kills a pregnant woman in self-defense would essentially mean that a pregnant woman can commit any sort of violent crime with no risk of physical retaliation. Heck, even the police arresting her might trigger a miscarriage, which could potentially carry murder charges under this law.

You effectively end up with a variation on the old "siamese twin" legal paradox, where it's impossible to apply any punishment (or no punishment at all) that's not in some way a miscarriage of justice, so to speak.


Ideally, yes. But I'd wager it's been at least 50 years since this country actually cared about the idea of "it's better for 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished" I blame Nixon, his southern Strategy and his focus on "law and order"
2012-04-25 02:10:00 AM  
3 votes:
People who aren't having protected sex, who aren't married, and are just playing around are going to make that child's life a living hell, I've seen it happen. I live in Tennessee. I genuinely feel sorry for any child that has to live in that hell.

Parents who are thinking of having a child should consider one thing, "Can they grow up in a happy, loving home?" If you can't answer this with a straight face or answer it honestly, don't have a child. Please.

I'm so sick of irresponsible people having a child because it was a mistake (any child that isn't planned, is a mistake, I'm sorry if that offends someone). I feel sorry more for the child, I don't feel sorry for the parents. The child will have to grow up in a home that simply cannot support it.

Mistakes can be fixed if the home that they grow up in sees love, happiness, and other facets of life that the child should experience to make their childhood free from the experience that some children have to go through because the parents aren't loving, caring, and thoughtful individuals and are just seeking some form of outlet to get attention.

/protection, wear it - otherwise, don't fark and end up with a kid when you can't support it.
//end rant
///Why yes, I don't believe in some sky god - I believe in being responsible in the actions I take, bearing any consequence that may be the result of those actions, and making adjustments to ensure that the consequences are mitigated somehow.
////Also, love your children - let them grow up in a happy, loving place that isn't filled with a large amount uncertainty.
2012-04-25 01:34:59 AM  
3 votes:

Car_Ramrod: Rep. Joshua Evans, R-Greenbrier, the House sponsor, said district attorneys general would not bring charges "if the proof wasn't there" of an intent to cause harm to the embryo or fetus.

I like their "just take our word for it" approach to lawmaking. Very professional.

Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy.

"There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.


There have been cases of this, but they are very, very rare. This law is insane and I hope it gets thrown out very quickly.
2012-04-25 12:33:45 AM  
3 votes:
Since it excludes anything the pregnant woman or a doctor may do, I guess it is technically ok, but it's like those creationists passing laws preventing the teacher from closing off any discussions in science class. Yeah, on the surface they look nice, but the only point of the law is further an unconstitutional agenda.
2012-04-25 12:10:48 AM  
3 votes:
What's that one page that has stories about "pro-lifers" secretly getting abortions?

/if it was really about protecting the innocent, there wouldn't be any exemptions
2012-04-25 10:49:59 AM  
2 votes:

meanmutton: 1) Yes, a citation alleging that there is a wealth of pro-lifers secretly getting abortions is needed.


Actually no. The citation would be that pro-lifers never get abortions. I mean if you're going to put forward the claim at least back it up.

meanmutton: 2) The law explicitly states that the only time that a murder can be charged is if a pregnant woman who wants to carry her child to term is attacked in such a way that her wanted child is killed.


Assaulting and killing women is still against the law unless you're saying that infertile women are worth less than fertile ones.

meanmutton: So your argument is "let's fight this perfectly reasonable law


And this is where you fail.
2012-04-25 09:53:25 AM  
2 votes:
I cite Nebraska as a good example of what happens when the pro lifers and the anti-immigrant people's heads explode. Pass a bill that allows illegal immigrant women to get state health benefits for their fetus, have the anti-immigrant governor veto it, and then have the pro-lifers join up with the liberals to override it. It really happened, and that's what the Democrats pretty much have to do to crater this whole runaround, "personhood amendment" bullsh*t.

Give:
- Expectant mothers tax credits
- Unborn fetuses full state healthcare benefits
- Unborn fetuses SCHIP coverage
- Free regular ultrasounds during gestation
- And give all of the the above to expectant women who are illegal immigrants carrying future anchor babies

Heads will explode.
2012-04-25 09:17:32 AM  
2 votes:
FTFA: Rep. Matthew Hill, R-Jonesborough, said Democrats were "playing the 'what if' game"

Yes. They are. And they should.

There's a reason laws are 50 pages of legalese and define everything down to the word "the". It's because law enforcement, prosecutors, and defense attorneys are all the same in one regard: you give them an inch and they'll take a light year. If you're writing a law, and you're not playing "what if", you're not doing your farking job.

The fact that your law is vague enough to allow for all these circumstances the Democrats are bringing up makes it a bad law. Period.
2012-04-25 02:39:08 AM  
2 votes:

Malivon: That is just a false hope and needs to just go away. There is always going to be a cohort of individuals that were unfortunately raised in an environment that brews the crazy.

Monkey see, monkey do. I've seen enough of my generation (I'm Generation Y) preach to me and try to convert my savage ways of logical thinking. It may just be me living in Tennessee, but from what I've seen, its going to continue for a long time and it is very unfortunate.


You can't deny that cohort will be lower in the future, that's how civil rights goes. Don't act like we were more liberal in the 50s or 60s, we weren't. Abortion isn't going any where, that's for sure.

Also, I live in the Bay Area, so I'm not around the religious nuts as much as I used to be. That said, the religious types I knew back when I lived in the Bible belt seemed more libertarian and socially liberal than their parents. Don't be too pessimistic, we have a freakin black president right now, stop thinking we aren't making progress.
2012-04-25 02:37:59 AM  
2 votes:
Evans said that is not the case. He noted the measure explicitly excludes any harm to an embryo or fetus cause by the pregnant woman herself.

Sure. This year it says that. What about next year when you make another 'revision' to punish pregnant women whose lifestyle causes a miscarriage? Like smoking, or drinking, or working outside of the home. As we know, studies have shown that married women suffer fewer pregnancies than single mothers...

Glad I'm not a woman. I'd hate to know the law considers something inside me to have legal rights independent of, and possibly superior to, my own.
2012-04-25 01:58:45 AM  
2 votes:

fusillade762: Car_Ramrod: "There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.

Uchiha_Cycliste: FTFA:"Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy."

bullshiat.

Uchiha_Cycliste: also, really? really! you dicks... "because of a their pregnancy?" jesus...

Came here to say the same thing. They make it seem like there are roving gangs of thugs targeting pregnant women for Falcon Punches.


Well, we do have the occasional Fark-worthy story about the lonely woman who befriends the pregnant woman, then kills her, digs the baby out of her gut, and steals it.

/very creeeeeeepy stories...
2012-04-25 01:49:10 AM  
2 votes:

ongbok: But it also seems that they are purposely leaving the wording ambiguous just so they can charge more people with murder.


Yuuup, that's what our government has been so good at doing in the past 30 or so years, finding new ways of throwing Americans in jails and prisons. It's weird how little anyone that runs for office cares about that issue but I now expect the Democrats to be quiet on issues actual liberals and Democrats care and I also expect the GOP to actively and openly support the police state.
2012-04-25 01:42:58 AM  
2 votes:

ongbok: Uchiha_Cycliste: FTFA:"Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy."

bullshiat.

Its true. They're frequently attack by abortion doctors.

But seriously, I understand the intent of the law, but they have to work on the wording so that somebody that accidentally rears ends a pregnant woman in a car, and that accident cause her to have a miscarriage, doesn't get charged with murder. But it also seems that they are purposely leaving the wording ambiguous just so they can charge more people with murder.


If they care so much about embryo's why don't they care for kids after they are born?Anyway, this seems like god-bothering on the most sneaky level; in as much as it make sense no other way.
2012-04-25 01:40:57 AM  
2 votes:
The bill pretty much excludes anything that happens to the woman without intent, so the senator who was worried secondhand smoke might be implicated seems to be inventing problems; otoh, deliberately causing the death of a fetus has always been part of just about every homicide law I've ever heard of. It's why we have to have abortion laws in the first place, to ALLOW abortions. Anyone who harms a pregnant woman deliberately and even inadvertently kills her baby has always been subject to a manslaughter charge; so this bill seems at best to be unnecessary.

It's that tacking on of the embryo that's troubling. It seems like a slanted way to attack abortion laws.
2012-04-24 10:16:48 PM  
2 votes:

Britney Spear's Speculum: 1) Nice headline
2) Why? This has nothing to do with abortion.


It's a simple outgrowth of the Christian view on abortion. If abortion is murder, than doing anything to a woman that causes a miscarriage is murder too.
2012-04-25 01:01:24 PM  
1 votes:

Nem Wan: It's impossible to increase the personhood of an unborn child without decreasing the personhood of a pregnant woman. Anyone denying this is lying or hasn't thought it through.


Also, anybody who says "personhood" with a straight face, especially at a high volume and especially regarding human eggs, needs to be beaten with their own limbs.
2012-04-25 12:48:10 PM  
1 votes:
It's impossible to increase the personhood of an unborn child without decreasing the personhood of a pregnant woman. Anyone denying this is lying or hasn't thought it through.
2012-04-25 12:00:40 PM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

It is like saying you can empathize with cancer patients because you once at a cold. While you may share the common experience of feeling ill, you cannot appreciate the amount of illness needed before having the capacity to fully empathize with someone with cancer.


The point of empathy is that it is not an act of reconstructive recall, but rather one of mental simulation. There are some of the same components -- piecing together components of your experience and adapting them as best you can to match new parameters. It's a highly advanced mental skill that is, as far as I know, unique to humans. It is a cognitively demanding task because you are constructing a mental story in which you are in the place of another person, changing components of one memory system (autobiographical memory or episodic memory) with components of another memory system (semantic or procedural memory) to construct a fiction. Of course, I can't really imagine what it is like for someone to have cancer. But I do have experience of some components of the side effects of cancer treatment. I have been extremely tired before. My hair has fallen out (is continuing to do so, though not from my eyebrows, of course). I've gotten really sick and barfed and then been unable to eat. I've had pain. So when I engage in empathy, i attempt to synthesize these experiences into a single representation of "cancer" and then I know "man, it sucks to have cancer, and this guy will probably want [x] [y] and [z]."
2012-04-25 11:55:22 AM  
1 votes:

Car_Ramrod: Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy.

"There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.


Of course there is such a trend, it's called the Republican party.

/Hey-ooooooo!
//I'm sure someone else made this joke, but 300 is a lot of comments to check through
2012-04-25 11:42:02 AM  
1 votes:

Britney Spear's Speculum: Why? This has nothing to do with abortion.


I'm never quite sure when it's genuine doublethink and when it's dishonesty.
2012-04-25 11:13:16 AM  
1 votes:

Serious Black: I'm pretty sure every liberal I know who fervently supports a strong welfare program would readily admit that some people game the system.


People have been gaming systems since systems were invented. Hammurabi wasn't even done hammering out the Code on a clay tablet before someone was looking for a way to turn a dishonest buck off of it.

What conservatives always fail to realize is that there are more and larger scams running than some poor [place favorite minority-to-hate here] taking $300 in welfare per month more than they should. Conservatives actually celebrate corporate welfare and its total abuse. They elevate conservative politicians who make life-long careers out of cheating the system to levels of God-like reverence. Then they pitch tantrums about poor people having access to refrigerators.

It's an ideology that fetishizes abuse.
2012-04-25 11:06:36 AM  
1 votes:
You know what kills a lot of babies? Lack of affordable health care. When right-wingers are pushing for that as hard as they push for crap like this, I'll consider the possibility that they aren't completely full of shiat.

/not holding my breath
2012-04-25 10:54:06 AM  
1 votes:

CapnBlues: s2s2s2:
Soooo...it is the problem of people without empathy. Thanks for confirming.

i think there's an important distinction between lack of the capacity of empathy versus the lack of instinct for empathy. Most individuals have the capacity of empathy -- if properly motivated to step into another's shoes, they gladly do. What many people lack is the instinct to do it automatically. I think it's a key distinction between modern conservatism and liberalism. Most conservative politicians and voters -- particularly those who identify as libertarians -- are fully capable of empathy, as evidenced by Dick Cheney's support for gay marriage, because he understands how his daughter feels and can project that onto people like his daughter. What falls apart for them is when they think about the way their voting behavior affects others, they don't have that automatic "whoah, what if I were poor and lost my job?" reaction. Liberals seem to have that automatic "ooooh, yeah, there but for bad luck go I" reaction, and thus they vote for social welfare programs.

Just my two cents as a neuroscientist.


Your two cents are worth more than a $1.50 offered up by some Farkers.
2012-04-25 10:52:00 AM  
1 votes:

s2s2s2: Bontesla: By the way, Ann Romney said that she loved the lack of choice some women have when they're single parents forced to both work and raise a family. It's the lack of choice she loves.

No she didn't. She stated, poorly, that she loves that we care about the people that don't have a choice. Stop being a disingenuous, catty person.


Funny how the Romneys seem to always be "stating poorly" how little they care about the poor and working poor... Almost like they're completely out of touch with anything resembling what most Americans experience.

But, you know, Mitt knows what it's like to worry about getting a pink slip and he and Ann know what suffering like since they had to live off their stock earnings for a bit.

The poor things. They can totally relate to a single mother with two minimum wage jobs who has to decide between buying groceries or medicine for a sick child.
2012-04-25 10:39:37 AM  
1 votes:

CapnBlues: meanmutton: So we have a law that says when a woman who is, say, 5 months pregnant with a wanted baby is assaulted by her husband or boyfriend and loses the baby we can now lock him up for a long time and somehow that's a bad thing?

i would think an extended sentence for that level of assault and battery would be a good idea regardless of the presence of a fetus.


Except that for the woman who wants that baby, it's going to be worse to lose the baby in addition to the assault.

The whole point of being pro-choice (which I absolutely am) is that the woman herself is the one who is supposed to have control of her reproduction. Killing a woman's wanted fetus against her wishes is a horrible, terrible thing.
2012-04-25 10:36:12 AM  
1 votes:

meanmutton: CapnBlues: meanmutton: 2) The law explicitly states that the only time that a murder can be charged is if a pregnant woman who wants to carry her child to term is attacked in such a way that her wanted child is killed.

now an interesting what-if here -- suppose some guy killed a woman who was pregnant. The state claims it's double homicide, but the defense claims that the child was going to be aborted. How does anyone know the true intentions of the mother about whether she was going to carry it to term?

What, you think that women decide to get abortions and then choose to wander around on the streets for a few months before they are done?


I don't know, but don't you think it's an interesting question?
2012-04-25 10:34:47 AM  
1 votes:

CapnBlues: meanmutton: 2) The law explicitly states that the only time that a murder can be charged is if a pregnant woman who wants to carry her child to term is attacked in such a way that her wanted child is killed.

now an interesting what-if here -- suppose some guy killed a woman who was pregnant. The state claims it's double homicide, but the defense claims that the child was going to be aborted. How does anyone know the true intentions of the mother about whether she was going to carry it to term?


What, you think that women decide to get abortions and then choose to wander around on the streets for a few months before they are done?
2012-04-25 10:28:52 AM  
1 votes:

s2s2s2:
Soooo...it is the problem of people without empathy. Thanks for confirming.


i think there's an important distinction between lack of the capacity of empathy versus the lack of instinct for empathy. Most individuals have the capacity of empathy -- if properly motivated to step into another's shoes, they gladly do. What many people lack is the instinct to do it automatically. I think it's a key distinction between modern conservatism and liberalism. Most conservative politicians and voters -- particularly those who identify as libertarians -- are fully capable of empathy, as evidenced by Dick Cheney's support for gay marriage, because he understands how his daughter feels and can project that onto people like his daughter. What falls apart for them is when they think about the way their voting behavior affects others, they don't have that automatic "whoah, what if I were poor and lost my job?" reaction. Liberals seem to have that automatic "ooooh, yeah, there but for bad luck go I" reaction, and thus they vote for social welfare programs.

Just my two cents as a neuroscientist.
2012-04-25 10:14:17 AM  
1 votes:
Can't wait until the lulz when Tennessee starts to try and prosecute fertility clinics.
2012-04-25 09:51:19 AM  
1 votes:
Since the Republicans took control of the house and many state governments based on economic issues, their laser-like focus on jobs and growing the economy has been truly impressive. I'll surely vote for them again this November!
2012-04-25 09:48:25 AM  
1 votes:

s2s2s2: Serious Black: And Hilary Rosen stated, poorly, that it's very hard for a woman who has never had to work a full-time job or two at the same time as raising multiple kids to know what that kind of life is like.

In response to Mitt relaying that Ann was relaying the concerns of working women. Posen is a fncking idiot.

Besides, we know women that run a household have no economic concerns, amirite?!


Sure they have economic concerns. I'll freely admit they do. But in the same way that a working dad probably has no idea what life is like for his stay-at-home wife, she probably has no idea what life is like for her husband either. Living in a bubble makes it hard for even those people with empathy oozing out of their pores to connect with others.
2012-04-25 09:47:12 AM  
1 votes:
Anytime a law is introduced that the people who are pushing it through have to say, "Well, technically we could do (insert bad thing here), but trust us, we would never do something like that", said law is a BAD IDEA.
2012-04-25 09:46:53 AM  
1 votes:

ThrobblefootSpectre: Most states have fetal homicide laws. Subby should get out more.

.


Yes, but TN is slowly and deliberately morphing their fetal homicide law into an anti-abortion law. They are trying, as have other states, to do an end-run around on Roe v Wade. The woman's right to choose is intact, but the physician or other health care practitioner performing the abortion is committing a felony. That's really what the change from "fetus" to embryo" is all about. It's pure bullshiat.
2012-04-25 09:45:38 AM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: I was being literal . . . And catty. I'm okay with it.


And you shouldn't feel bad about it either, the assholes that suddenly care about attacks on these politicians wives after 4 years of trashing Michelle Obama are hypocritical. It also sets the narrative and puts them on the defensive trying to explain what marie antoinette was actually saying.
2012-04-25 09:40:17 AM  
1 votes:

karnal: Deneb81


karnal: Republicans: "A human embryo is life."

Democrats: "Not so fast."

Republicans: A zygote is a person!

Democrats: Uh... How exactly are you defining 'person'? Cause it ain't with science. Or a rational argument. And apparently only includes women until they leave the womb...

More Like:

Republicans see it as life from the moment of conception....and Democrats think if that were true then where's their Child Tax credit for last year when the baby was conceived....where's the extra money they are entitled to?


To be fair, if a fetus is a person then aren't they officially a dependent? Why WOULDN'T you treat them like a child for tax purposes? Why would you treat them as a child for criminal law, a child for abortion law, a child for healthcare law, and a child for civil suits but NOT for taxes?

What does fetal personhood mean for immigration law. Are you a citizen at birth or at conception?
2012-04-25 09:31:28 AM  
1 votes:

s2s2s2: Bontesla: By the way, Ann Romney said that she loved the lack of choice some women have when they're single parents forced to both work and raise a family. It's the lack of choice she loves.

No she didn't. She stated, poorly, that she loves that we care about the people that don't have a choice. Stop being a disingenuous, catty person.


Yeah it was more of a Freudian slip
2012-04-25 09:30:05 AM  
1 votes:

s2s2s2: Bontesla: By the way, Ann Romney said that she loved the lack of choice some women have when they're single parents forced to both work and raise a family. It's the lack of choice she loves.

No she didn't. She stated, poorly, that she loves that we care about the people that don't have a choice. Stop being a disingenuous, catty person.


And Hilary Rosen stated, poorly, that it's very hard for a woman who has never had to work a full-time job or two at the same time as raising multiple kids to know what that kind of life is like.
2012-04-25 09:27:55 AM  
1 votes:

RabidRythmDivas: God orders abortions and sterilizations of unfaithful wives in the Bible.

Numbers 5

Look it up.


He also didn't consider babies younger than one month old to be worth the effort of counting them in the census. I don't remember exactly how many times they used some variant of the phrase "one month old and older," but it was in the double digits IIRC. That's far too many to be accidental.
2012-04-25 09:23:30 AM  
1 votes:
The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men:
It is true - women who are already in abusive relationships tend to experience a greater intensity of abuse if/when they get pregnant and in the worst cases this leads to murder.

However bills like this are more a form of concern trolling - you don't see the supporters of these bills fighting for tougher domestic violence laws, funding for womens shelters or public education to address domestic violence.



THIS right here. And couldn't come from a more appropriately-named farker.
2012-04-25 09:20:38 AM  
1 votes:

karnal: It turned into a Women's Rights thread when


...the topic has a huge impact on women's rights.
2012-04-25 08:59:35 AM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: Jake Havechek: Before women have their period, they must report for a vaginal probe to be sure no embryo has been implanted.

I think I have a right to stand my ground until my rights are stripped. Then I will become my husband's property so technically he can stand his ground. Am I doing it right?


No, you have no rights, you never will have rights. Before 18 and/or marriage, your father or any other older male relative has rights over what you do and what you do with your body. Upon marriage these rights transfer to your husband.
2012-04-25 08:22:24 AM  
1 votes:
Were about nine months away from the police breaking down my door, arresting me, and putting a crusty sweatsock into an evidence bag, aren't we?
2012-04-25 08:18:16 AM  
1 votes:

karnal: Republicans: "A human embryo is life."

Democrats: "Not so fast."


Republicans: A zygote is a person!

Democrats: Uh... How exactly are you defining 'person'? Cause it ain't with science. Or a rational argument. And apparently only includes women until they leave the womb...
2012-04-25 08:16:26 AM  
1 votes:
Life is Sacred. Exterminate Everyone.
2012-04-25 08:07:33 AM  
1 votes:

karnal: Republicans: "A human embryo is life."

Democrats: "Not so fast."


t2.gstatic.com
2012-04-25 08:07:04 AM  
1 votes:

Crabs_Can_Polevault: Bontesla: Drtfa: could the biological father file a criminal complaint against the biological mother for an otherwise legal abortion?

I think that'll be covered in a future "that biatch better have my baby" amendment.


Even if it doesn't - it is probably plausible for the father to file an injunction against the mother using these statute. By the time the dispute is resolved - her window for a lawful abortion is closed.
2012-04-25 07:38:05 AM  
1 votes:

Lenny_da_Hog: fusillade762: Car_Ramrod: "There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.

Uchiha_Cycliste: FTFA:"Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy."

bullshiat.

Uchiha_Cycliste: also, really? really! you dicks... "because of a their pregnancy?" jesus...

Came here to say the same thing. They make it seem like there are roving gangs of thugs targeting pregnant women for Falcon Punches.

Well, we do have the occasional Fark-worthy story about the lonely woman who befriends the pregnant woman, then kills her, digs the baby out of her gut, and steals it.

/very creeeeeeepy stories...


But that would be punishable.

Murder 1 for the killing of the woman.
If the fetus survives the surgery then it's kidnapping.
If the fetus doesn't survive but does take a breath then there's a second degree charge.

But, many states already do have similar laws.
2012-04-25 07:25:19 AM  
1 votes:

TheJoe03: ongbok: But it also seems that they are purposely leaving the wording ambiguous just so they can charge more people with murder.

Yuuup, that's what our government has been so good at doing in the past 30 or so years, finding new ways of throwing Americans in jails and prisons. It's weird how little anyone that runs for office cares about that issue but I now expect the Democrats to be quiet on issues actual liberals and Democrats care and I also expect the GOP to actively and openly support the police state.


This is verifabily the case. With the increase of privatized prisons - owners of those businesses also donate to political campaigns.
2012-04-25 04:21:08 AM  
1 votes:
FTnauseatingA: Rep. Joshua Evans, R-Greenbrier, the House sponsor, said district attorneys general would not bring charges "if the proof wasn't there" of an intent to cause harm to the embryo or fetus.

So this is yet another Small Government bill that create yet another offence the government can use to selectively prosecute whoever the it wants, which will never be enforced unless someone in the government is out to screw you. Or as we used to call it, "tyranny," back when that was what the nasty Soviets did. You've all seen in in Law and Order: "Do what we want or we'll find something to use to ruin your life."

"To make laws that man cannot, and will not, obey serves to bring all law into contempt." - Elizabeth Cady Stanton
2012-04-25 03:27:15 AM  
1 votes:
All votes against the bill came from Democrats, some of whom contended in floor debate that "embryo" is too broad.

At least the Dems voted against the thing. All 20 of them. These slippery slope, mission creepy Personhood laws designed to give the anti-choicers an illusion of changing hearts and minds in the abortion debate need to go the fark away.

Mae "Big Brown" Beavers needs to be replaced by someone who isn't batshait insane.

/Nice headline, Subs.
2012-04-25 02:35:34 AM  
1 votes:

Car_Ramrod: Loucifer: What if the embryo is coming right at me? I can stand my ground, right?

That actually brings up a good question: a person knows the woman is pregnant. She attacks him, and in self defense he kills her, knowing full well the fetus will die as well. Is he prosecuted?


That is a good question. On the face of it, the answer would seem to be no, since self-defense is an affirmative defense to murder. However, self-defense only applies when you kill your attacker. You might try to argue necessity, but necessity is never a defense to murder. On the other hand, allowing murder charges for the fetus to stand against somebody who kills a pregnant woman in self-defense would essentially mean that a pregnant woman can commit any sort of violent crime with no risk of physical retaliation. Heck, even the police arresting her might trigger a miscarriage, which could potentially carry murder charges under this law.

You effectively end up with a variation on the old "siamese twin" legal paradox, where it's impossible to apply any punishment (or no punishment at all) that's not in some way a miscarriage of justice, so to speak.
2012-04-25 02:33:05 AM  
1 votes:

TheJoe03: I honestly think they see the writing on the wall and realize their ideology wont win out in the long term, so they are trying to push as much as they can right now since this is their best shot at it. These wackos aren't that big of a part of Gen X or Y, so when the old folks die off so should their craziness.


It's not that much lower, unfortunately.
2012-04-25 02:21:01 AM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: It's a simple outgrowth of the Christian view on abortion. If abortion is murder, than doing anything to a woman that causes a miscarriage is murder too.


Not according to the rules laid down in the Bible.

Oh..you said Christian. Sorry. We all know how well versed in the Bible they are.
Continue...
2012-04-25 02:19:31 AM  
1 votes:

Malivon: People who aren't having protected sex, who aren't married, and are just playing around are going to make that child's life a living hell, I've seen it happen. I live in Tennessee. I genuinely feel sorry for any child that has to live in that hell.

Parents who are thinking of having a child should consider one thing, "Can they grow up in a happy, loving home?" If you can't answer this with a straight face or answer it honestly, don't have a child. Please.


*snip* I agree with just about everything you've said. Which is why I believe in unfettered access to abortion. No one should give birth (or have to give birth) and bring a child into an unhappy or unstable family. Sometimes death is preferable and no one is more qualified to judge that than the pregnant woman herself.
2012-04-25 02:17:59 AM  
1 votes:

Loucifer: What if the embryo is coming right at me? I can stand my ground, right?


That actually brings up a good question: a person knows the woman is pregnant. She attacks him, and in self defense he kills her, knowing full well the fetus will die as well. Is he prosecuted?

Rep. Joshua Evans, R-Greenbrier, the House sponsor, said district attorneys general would not bring charges "if the proof wasn't there" of an intent to cause harm to the embryo or fetus.

There is proof of intent to kill the woman, which would knowingly harm the fetus. What happens then?
2012-04-25 02:10:09 AM  
1 votes:
why isn't it rational that a female killing their daughter or son might not be some sort of right

OK, let's look again only without the calculatedly and deliberately obfuscating double negative.

"why is it rational that a female killing their daughter or son might be some sort of right?"

I am Dang Sure there is something totally wrong with your f*cking mind. Why can't you talk straight, instead of sneakily squeakfarting coy, pseudo-clever bullsh*t?
2012-04-25 02:06:11 AM  
1 votes:

TheOnion: Since it excludes anything the pregnant woman or a doctor may do, I guess it is technically ok,


Okay, but if I'm a doctor who doesn't have to tell you that your fetus is in danger of dying when I do your required transvaginal ultrasound, and the fetus dies because I didn't have to tell you, then...
2012-04-25 02:02:51 AM  
1 votes:

Car_Ramrod: Lenny_da_Hog: fusillade762: Car_Ramrod: "There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.

Uchiha_Cycliste: FTFA:"Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy."

bullshiat.

Uchiha_Cycliste: also, really? really! you dicks... "because of a their pregnancy?" jesus...

Came here to say the same thing. They make it seem like there are roving gangs of thugs targeting pregnant women for Falcon Punches.

Well, we do have the occasional Fark-worthy story about the lonely woman who befriends the pregnant woman, then kills her, digs the baby out of her gut, and steals it.

/very creeeeeeepy stories...

Well maybe they were just looking for a burrito. Those things can be easily confused for each other.

[img515.imageshack.us image 380x253]


shiat... so I DID leave that burrito on Cal Ave. damn.
It was from La Bamba
a la la la la bamba.
2012-04-25 02:01:43 AM  
1 votes:

Lenny_da_Hog: fusillade762: Car_Ramrod: "There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.

Uchiha_Cycliste: FTFA:"Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy."

bullshiat.

Uchiha_Cycliste: also, really? really! you dicks... "because of a their pregnancy?" jesus...

Came here to say the same thing. They make it seem like there are roving gangs of thugs targeting pregnant women for Falcon Punches.

Well, we do have the occasional Fark-worthy story about the lonely woman who befriends the pregnant woman, then kills her, digs the baby out of her gut, and steals it.

/very creeeeeeepy stories...


that didn't even happen in this state did it? =P
2012-04-25 01:43:46 AM  
1 votes:

themindiswatching: What's that one page that has stories about "pro-lifers" secretly getting abortions?

/if it was really about protecting the innocent, there wouldn't be any exemptions


The only moral abortion is my abortion (new window)
2012-04-25 01:43:20 AM  
1 votes:

jst3p: Loucifer: What if the embryo is coming right at me? I can stand my ground, right?

Only if the fetus is wearing a hoodie.


img29.imageshack.us

/I should really go to bed
2012-04-25 01:42:19 AM  
1 votes:
How long until someone passes a 'shoot doctors who treat women' bill.
2012-04-25 01:40:32 AM  
1 votes:

Car_Ramrod: Uchiha_Cycliste: damn you car ramrod!

The day is mine!


You will rue this day! Mark my words.... RUE!
2012-04-25 01:38:44 AM  
1 votes:
What about teh kittens?
2012-04-25 01:38:28 AM  
1 votes:

Uchiha_Cycliste: FTFA:"Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy."

bullshiat.


Its true. They're frequently attack by abortion doctors.

But seriously, I understand the intent of the law, but they have to work on the wording so that somebody that accidentally rears ends a pregnant woman in a car, and that accident cause her to have a miscarriage, doesn't get charged with murder. But it also seems that they are purposely leaving the wording ambiguous just so they can charge more people with murder.
2012-04-25 01:37:11 AM  
1 votes:

Loucifer: What if the embryo is coming right at me? I can stand my ground, right?


Only if the fetus is wearing a hoodie.
2012-04-25 01:35:09 AM  
1 votes:
Another day, another battle in the War on Women.
2012-04-25 01:34:44 AM  
1 votes:
What if the embryo is coming right at me? I can stand my ground, right?
2012-04-25 01:33:59 AM  
1 votes:
damn you car ramrod!
2012-04-25 01:33:22 AM  
1 votes:
also, really? really! you dicks... "because of a their pregnancy?" jesus...
2012-04-24 10:16:24 PM  
1 votes:

notalwaysright: Subby
[i255.photobucket.com image 259x194]


I see what he did, too

/but that headline is an abortion
2012-04-24 09:46:22 PM  
1 votes:
1) Nice headline
2) Why? This has nothing to do with abortion.
 
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