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(KnoxNews)   A poorly conceived Tennessee law is likely to lead to the miscarriage of justice   (knoxnews.com) divider line 385
    More: Asinine, miscarriage of justice, Bill Haslam, embryos  
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26074 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Apr 2012 at 1:27 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-25 11:23:10 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Serious Black: I'm pretty sure every liberal I know who fervently supports a strong welfare program would readily admit that some people game the system.

People have been gaming systems since systems were invented. Hammurabi wasn't even done hammering out the Code on a clay tablet before someone was looking for a way to turn a dishonest buck off of it.

What conservatives always fail to realize is that there are more and larger scams running than some poor [place favorite minority-to-hate here] taking $300 in welfare per month more than they should. Conservatives actually celebrate corporate welfare and its total abuse. They elevate conservative politicians who make life-long careers out of cheating the system to levels of God-like reverence. Then they pitch tantrums about poor people having access to refrigerators.

It's an ideology that fetishizes abuse.


Yup. I love throwing it in reactionaries' faces that the rate of getting audited when you are poor is at least ten times higher than when you are rich even though they are getting away with almost a hundred times more fraud in terms of raw dollar.
 
2012-04-25 11:24:12 AM

meanmutton: CapnBlues: meanmutton: So we have a law that says when a woman who is, say, 5 months pregnant with a wanted baby is assaulted by her husband or boyfriend and loses the baby we can now lock him up for a long time and somehow that's a bad thing?

i would think an extended sentence for that level of assault and battery would be a good idea regardless of the presence of a fetus.

Except that for the woman who wants that baby, it's going to be worse to lose the baby in addition to the assault.

The whole point of being pro-choice (which I absolutely am) is that the woman herself is the one who is supposed to have control of her reproduction. Killing a woman's wanted fetus against her wishes is a horrible, terrible thing.


Statistically, battered women are less likely to testify against their assailants than other instances of battery. They're also harder for the prosecution to prove for that reason.

Trying to prove that he terminated an otherwise wanted pregnancy as a direct result of violence is a tall order.

She would have to be killed to really provide adequate evidence if she was otherwise unwilling.

Again, drtfa.
 
2012-04-25 11:27:16 AM

s2s2s2: CapnBlues: it's more expensive to execute people, and chopping off limbs is unconstitutional (cruel/unusual). Lifetime imprisonment is cheaper and is constitutional.

Well now I have.


:)
 
2012-04-25 11:27:45 AM

s2s2s2: So they are having a hard time conveying how little they care?


Oh no, they're conveying that quite effectively, despite their attempts to convince us otherwise.

What's the saying? A political gaff is when you accidentally say what you really mean...
 
2012-04-25 11:32:31 AM

CapnBlues: it's more expensive to execute people, and chopping off limbs is unconstitutional (cruel/unusual). Lifetime imprisonment is cheaper and is constitutional.


Maybe we should find a cheaper way to execute people. Go back to hanging, rope is cheap.
 
2012-04-25 11:36:43 AM
Tennessee must be simply overflowing with good JOBS for every single person who lives there or they wouldn't have time for stupid shiat like this...
 
2012-04-25 11:39:26 AM

karnal: Headso


karnal: There is a big difference in wanting unemployed parents on wellfare to get back into the workforce and the stay at home mom who voluntarily 'works' the homefront while her husband (or significant other) goes to work.

If you get financial support from society your work raising children has no dignity, if you get financial support from your husband your work raising children has dignity.


If you don't think there are people out there that take advantage of the welfare system (and the percentage is high), then any conversation between us is pointless.

No doubt, there are some that are in need of financial support and a foot up while trying to get back to work, and then there are the others who have found their status in life - who are happy to live off the government. Republicans want to help them (force them) get back to work.....and the Democrats are happy to keep them where they are as long as the show up to vote.


Using a cited source, identify the percentage of users that abuse assistance and then define what qualified as abuse of the program.
 
2012-04-25 11:40:07 AM

palelizard: CapnBlues: it's more expensive to execute people, and chopping off limbs is unconstitutional (cruel/unusual). Lifetime imprisonment is cheaper and is constitutional.

Maybe we should find a cheaper way to execute people. Go back to hanging, rope is cheap.


You run with that, chief. Let us all know how it goes.
 
2012-04-25 11:42:02 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: Why? This has nothing to do with abortion.


I'm never quite sure when it's genuine doublethink and when it's dishonesty.
 
2012-04-25 11:42:25 AM

palelizard: Maybe we should find a cheaper way to execute people. Go back to hanging, rope is cheap.


We had a guy here in Oklahoma named Roger Dale Stafford. He killed 6 people while robbing a restaurant. It took over 15 years to execute him. He was, of course, indigent so the state paid all his legal bills. In just the last two weeks of his life, his lawyer billed the state something like $50k. In all, he cost the state millions to execute.
 
2012-04-25 11:44:21 AM

CapnBlues: You run with that, chief. Let us all know how it goes.


Probably about as well as trying to lock up every violent offender for life.
 
2012-04-25 11:47:17 AM
 
2012-04-25 11:47:53 AM

CapnBlues: Serious Black: Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it, but I'm suggesting that there are situations where even those with a highly tuned instinct for empathy cannot put themselves into another's shoes because those shoes are practically alien. That's why I brought up the cancer thing a few posts prior. All the empathy in the world does not appear to prepare people for those kinds of life-and-death decisions.

They may have an instinct for empathy, sure, but part of such an instinct is sorting out what it would be like to be another person. If they don't do that, I would argue that they're not really showing empathy. Like many mental characteristics, empathy exists on a spectrum. Simon Baron-Cohen (yes, related to Borat) even designed a survey/inventory to measure the "empathy quotient" like the IQ. Like with many psychological behaviors, i'd actually expect that the likelihood of a person taking someone else's perspective is more influenced by situational factors than by some innate capacity for empathy. For example, a generally high-empathizing individual may actually display low empathy when dealing with black people, homosexuals, or some other out-group.

Perspective-taking is a cognitively-demanding task, and people in general are cognitive misers, of sorts. We save our mental resources for when we feel we really need them. In a way, being a noninstinctual empathizer can be an adaptive trait, if you think about it. You just push ahead, disregarding how your behavior affects others, and in the process you are likely to get what you want. Politicians, both liberal and conservative, are not the sort to worry about the feelings of others. They take what they want until someone won't let them take it, then they take it anyway.

Rant rant. I should be writing my dissertation instead. :/


But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

It is like saying you can empathize with cancer patients because you once at a cold. While you may share the common experience of feeling ill, you cannot appreciate the amount of illness needed before having the capacity to fully empathize with someone with cancer.
 
2012-04-25 11:50:57 AM

s2s2s2: keylock71: Funny how the Romneys seem to always be "stating poorly" how little they care about the poor and working poor... Almost like they're completely out of touch with anything resembling what most Americans experience.

So they are having a hard time conveying how little they care? Or are you just stating your point poorly?


I see what you did there.
 
2012-04-25 11:55:22 AM

Car_Ramrod: Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy.

"There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.


Of course there is such a trend, it's called the Republican party.

/Hey-ooooooo!
//I'm sure someone else made this joke, but 300 is a lot of comments to check through
 
2012-04-25 11:56:53 AM

erik-k: "To make laws that man cannot, and will not, obey serves to bring all law into contempt." - Elizabeth Cady Stanton


"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

Ugh. I just quoted Ayn Rand. I feel dirty.
 
2012-04-25 11:57:06 AM
So if life begins at conception, does that mean if a pregnant woman is driving her car in the carpool lane by herself, but she was pregnant, could the embryo be considered a "passenger"?
 
2012-04-25 11:57:17 AM
What the fark is going through these people's minds? What possible motivation do they have?

Mike Chewbacca: 15-Year-Old Girl Faces Life in Prison for a Miscarriage. I wish I was kidding.


RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
 
2012-04-25 11:57:27 AM

Dalek Caan's doomed mistress: "There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.

There have been cases of this, but they are very, very rare. This law is insane and I hope it gets thrown out very quickly.


"This deals with criminal behavior, by people who have harmed not one but two Tennesseans," Hill said.

Oh no!
 
2012-04-25 12:00:40 PM

Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

It is like saying you can empathize with cancer patients because you once at a cold. While you may share the common experience of feeling ill, you cannot appreciate the amount of illness needed before having the capacity to fully empathize with someone with cancer.


The point of empathy is that it is not an act of reconstructive recall, but rather one of mental simulation. There are some of the same components -- piecing together components of your experience and adapting them as best you can to match new parameters. It's a highly advanced mental skill that is, as far as I know, unique to humans. It is a cognitively demanding task because you are constructing a mental story in which you are in the place of another person, changing components of one memory system (autobiographical memory or episodic memory) with components of another memory system (semantic or procedural memory) to construct a fiction. Of course, I can't really imagine what it is like for someone to have cancer. But I do have experience of some components of the side effects of cancer treatment. I have been extremely tired before. My hair has fallen out (is continuing to do so, though not from my eyebrows, of course). I've gotten really sick and barfed and then been unable to eat. I've had pain. So when I engage in empathy, i attempt to synthesize these experiences into a single representation of "cancer" and then I know "man, it sucks to have cancer, and this guy will probably want [x] [y] and [z]."
 
2012-04-25 12:01:00 PM

UsikFark: not one but two Tennesseans


By the way, I assume he means two because of the embryo=person thing, but I read it as "this happened twice!"
 
2012-04-25 12:03:40 PM
 
2012-04-25 12:04:32 PM

meanmutton: Fart_Machine: meanmutton: Fart_Machine: Can't wait until the lulz when Tennessee starts to try and prosecute fertility clinics.

Know how I know you didn't read the article?

I'm totally sure this won't lead to a slippery slope in expanded legislation. Honest! You can trust these guys!

So your argument is "let's fight this perfectly reasonable law which protects punishes the physical abuse of women causing them to lose a wanted pregnancy because at some point there might be an unreasonable law that has a very loose connection to this one?"


Without clear and concise boundaries, you bet your ass... Are you so oblivious that you've never heard the term "loophole"? Are you so trusting of your government to just take their word on a law that ultimately affect peoples freedoms when they don't define on paper who is protected and who is liable...

They are banking on idiots like you to take them at their word for it because they sure as shiat know better.

The rest of us can see that this is a blatant attempt to insert their religious beliefs into a statehood which has continually tried to resist letting religion govern its people.

These are people who consistently speak out against the "tyranny" of muslim faith based countries, yet given to their own devices, choose the same tyrannical christian types to lead themselves...

I'm not going to presume to know your religious or political stance, and judge your statements as you have written them, and i find them obtuse...
 
2012-04-25 12:06:08 PM

karnal: Republicans: "A human embryo is life."

Democrats: "Not so fast."


Poe's Law in action. I thought you were joking, then I read some of your later posts.
 
2012-04-25 12:07:44 PM

qorkfiend: What the fark is going through these people's minds? What possible motivation do they have?


Lack of sammiches, dirty plates stacking up in the sink, impudent whore of a daughter trying to get a 'useless" design school scholarship, having to get boy-ass on the subway, daddy issues, mommy issues, liver issues...The list goes on and on.
 
2012-04-25 12:09:05 PM

thamike: qorkfiend: What the fark is going through these people's minds? What possible motivation do they have?

Lack of sammiches, dirty plates stacking up in the sink, impudent whore of a daughter trying to get a 'useless" design school scholarship, having to get boy-ass on the subway, daddy issues, mommy issues, liver issues...The list goes on and on.


And that's just the men, by the way. What's going on in the minds of women who feel that way? Have you ever heard a test of the Emergency Broadcast System, or a dial tone?
 
2012-04-25 12:09:17 PM

Macular Degenerate: Is this a response to that mega-tornado of homosexuality and tidal wave of abortions that was threatening to rampage Middle America?


Mega-Tornado of Homosexuality would be an AWESOME name for a band.
 
2012-04-25 12:10:24 PM
Dolly Parton to sing "Come to Tennessee, we're doing it wrong"
 
2012-04-25 12:11:39 PM

ciberido: Macular Degenerate: Is this a response to that mega-tornado of homosexuality and tidal wave of abortions that was threatening to rampage Middle America?

Mega-Tornado of Homosexuality would be an AWESOME name for a band.


They only cover show tunes.
 
2012-04-25 12:12:42 PM

thamike: qorkfiend: What the fark is going through these people's minds? What possible motivation do they have?

Lack of sammiches, dirty plates stacking up in the sink, impudent whore of a daughter trying to get a 'useless" design school scholarship, having to get boy-ass on the subway, daddy issues, mommy issues, liver issues...The list goes on and on.


...restoring America to a time when women didn't ask male politicians hard questions on TV...
 
2012-04-25 12:13:45 PM

Sofa King Smart: apparently this girl got elected in Tennessee.


Holy crap... That's jacked up. What a pair of retards.
 
2012-04-25 12:15:08 PM

CapnBlues: Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

It is like saying you can empathize with cancer patients because you once at a cold. While you may share the common experience of feeling ill, you cannot appreciate the amount of illness needed before having the capacity to fully empathize with someone with cancer.

The point of empathy is that it is not an act of reconstructive recall, but rather one of mental simulation. There are some of the same components -- piecing together components of your experience and adapting them as best you can to match new parameters. It's a highly advanced mental skill that is, as far as I know, unique to humans. It is a cognitively demanding task because you are constructing a mental story in which you are in the place of another person, changing components of one memory system (autobiographical memory or episodic memory) with components of another memory system (semantic or procedural memory) to construct a fiction. Of course, I can't really imagine what it is like for someone to have cancer. But I do have experience of some components of the side effects of cancer treatment. I have been extremely tired before. My hair has fallen out (is continuing to do so, though not from my eyebrows, of course). I've gotten really sick and barfed and then been unable to eat. I've had pain. So when I engage in empathy, i attempt to synthesize these experiences into a single representation of "cancer" and then I know "man, it sucks to have cancer, and this guy will probably want [x] [y] and [z]."


Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not arguing that empathy = reconstructive recall. My point is that there's a significant difference between using a cold to empathize with someone having a cold versus someone using a cold to empathize with someone with cancer.

While empathy is important, accurate empty is also important.

There's a stage in childhood development in which the child uses their experiences to predict what other's would like. At the beginning of this stage, the little girl may give her father a baby doll. The girl understands that her doll makes her feel better and believes it will also make her father will better. While he may be touched at the gesture, the girl will feel differently than her father in regards to being given a doll.

As the maturation process continues the child will realize that it's not the doll but the process of getting something you're interested in. So, she will start to give her dad other things like maybe a ball or a picture of a ball.

I can say, "I've had a cold and therefore can empathize with you because you're feeling ill." However, my capacity to empathize is diminished because I have inadequate information to understand what having cancer is like.

There have been fascinating studies with bonobos regarding empathy you may find fascinating. I mean, not to further anyone's point but as an independent tangential idea.
 
2012-04-25 12:16:45 PM

ciberido: Macular Degenerate: Is this a response to that mega-tornado of homosexuality and tidal wave of abortions that was threatening to rampage Middle America?

Mega-Tornado of Homosexuality would be an AWESOME name for a band.


I lol'd
 
2012-04-25 12:18:56 PM

NightOwl2255: We had a guy here in Oklahoma named Roger Dale Stafford. He killed 6 people while robbing a restaurant. It took over 15 years to execute him. He was, of course, indigent so the state paid all his legal bills. In just the last two weeks of his life, his lawyer billed the state something like $50k. In all, he cost the state millions to execute.


I believe it (but 50K for two weeks and he still lost? I need a law degree). But would the costs have been significantly reduced if he'd been battling life in prison instead? I'm not being snarky, just unaware if you get extra appeals for a death sentence.

My facetious comment about the rope aside, I'm not in favor of the state executing its citizens in general, but "it's expensive" doesn't seem like a particularly great rationale not to do so.
 
2012-04-25 12:20:20 PM

Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.


I haven't heard of that book before. It seems really interesting. I'll have to check it out at my local library. Thanks for the tip!
 
2012-04-25 12:21:37 PM

Bontesla: Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not arguing that empathy = reconstructive recall. My point is that there's a significant difference between using a cold to empathize with someone having a cold versus someone using a cold to empathize with someone with cancer.

While empathy is important, accurate empty is also important.

There's a stage in childhood development in which the child uses their experiences to predict what other's would like. At the beginning of this stage, the little girl may give her father a baby doll. The girl understands that her doll makes her feel better and believes it will also make her father will better. While he may be touched at the gesture, the girl will feel differently than her father in regards to being given a doll.

As the maturation process continues the child will realize that it's not the doll but the process of getting something you're interested in. So, she will start to give her dad other things like maybe a ball or a picture of a ball.

I can say, "I've had a cold and therefore can empathize with you because you're feeling ill." However, my capacity to empathize is diminished because I have inadequate information to understand what having cancer is like.

There have been fascinating studies with bonobos regarding empathy you may find fascinating. I mean, not to further anyone's point but as an independent tangential idea.


I think maybe we're talking about different things. Theory of mind and empathy are related, but they're not the same. and honest, i should be writing about this in my dissertation, not on fark. :-/ Sorry, friend, i really must jet.

best wishes, though, and i'll have a look at the bonobo stuff. though comparative psych is not really an interest of mine.
 
2012-04-25 12:22:28 PM

Car_Ramrod: Rep. Joshua Evans, R-Greenbrier, the House sponsor, said district attorneys general would not bring charges "if the proof wasn't there" of an intent to cause harm to the embryo or fetus.

I like their "just take our word for it" approach to lawmaking. Very professional.

Evans also said the bill merely clarifies current law, which is necessary because women are sometimes attacked because of a their pregnancy.

"There is a problem with people being killed because they're pregnant, or being assaulted," he said.

Wut? There is? I have never heard of such a trend.


Link I'm not sure if I'd call it a trend though.
 
2012-04-25 12:22:52 PM

keylock71: Dusk-You-n-Me: karnal: If you don't think there are people out there that take advantage of the welfare system (and the percentage is high)

Because you say so?

Last I saw, the rate of Welfare Fraud had been on the decline for the last decade... and the majority of welfare fraud was committed by vendors, not individuals.

I've seen figures around 4%, but I guess accurate statistics are hard to get for this issue.


The problem with this argument is definition... the law defines fraud in one, measurable manor, while people opinions differ greatly from what the law defines...

The law doesn't say "a woman who's child is close to coming of age and therefore goes out on a one night stand just to get knocked up again so she can continue her benefits" as fraud since, technically she will probably need the service to care for the new baby, but people can observe this sort of behavior and say "i consider this person a welfare queen and is abusing the system"

Does the law account for common sense? No
Is there much we can do about it? Not really

The problem is, once you set boundaries and definitions, then set millions of minds to work against those boundaries it won't take long before exploits, loopholes and weaknesses are found
 
2012-04-25 12:26:12 PM

Serious Black: Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

I haven't heard of that book before. It seems really interesting. I'll have to check it out at my local library. Thanks for the tip!


You are welcome. It is probably a decade or three old by now. For anyone interested, it is a social experiment in which the author transforms himself to a black man and then travels around the south. It is quite the journey.
 
2012-04-25 12:27:11 PM

CapnBlues: Bontesla: Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not arguing that empathy = reconstructive recall. My point is that there's a significant difference between using a cold to empathize with someone having a cold versus someone using a cold to empathize with someone with cancer.

While empathy is important, accurate empty is also important.

There's a stage in childhood development in which the child uses their experiences to predict what other's would like. At the beginning of this stage, the little girl may give her father a baby doll. The girl understands that her doll makes her feel better and believes it will also make her father will better. While he may be touched at the gesture, the girl will feel differently than her father in regards to being given a doll.

As the maturation process continues the child will realize that it's not the doll but the process of getting something you're interested in. So, she will start to give her dad other things like maybe a ball or a picture of a ball.

I can say, "I've had a cold and therefore can empathize with you because you're feeling ill." However, my capacity to empathize is diminished because I have inadequate information to understand what having cancer is like.

There have been fascinating studies with bonobos regarding empathy you may find fascinating. I mean, not to further anyone's point but as an independent tangential idea.

I think maybe we're talking about different things. Theory of mind and empathy are related, but they're not the same. and honest, i should be writing about this in my dissertation, not on fark. :-/ Sorry, friend, i really must jet.

best wishes, though, and i'll have a look at the bonobo stuff. though comparative psych is not really an interest of mine.


Good luck on the dissertation!
 
2012-04-25 12:33:36 PM

Sofa King Smart: apparently this girl got elected in Tennessee.


What's her name?
 
2012-04-25 12:38:59 PM

Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

It is like saying you can empathize with cancer patients because you once at a cold. While you may share the common experience of feeling ill, you cannot appreciate the amount of illness needed before having the capacity to fully empathize with someone with cancer.



You're taking a valid point to a ridiculous extreme. You're like Diogenes of Sinope claiming that there are no honest men in the world.

Maybe a person who's only had a cold can't emphasize with a someone who's had a cold. But perhaps someone's who has had Typhoid or AIDS could. There are a lot of illnesses in between cancer and a cold.

You're essentially denying that real empathy even exists, and I disagree with that position.
 
2012-04-25 12:43:51 PM

Serious Black: Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

I haven't heard of that book before. It seems really interesting. I'll have to check it out at my local library. Thanks for the tip!


There's another book along the same lines that might interest you. It's Self-Made Man by Norah Vincent. She spent a year posing as a man.
 
2012-04-25 12:45:38 PM

UsikFark: ...restoring America to a time when women didn't ask male politicians hard questions on TV...




msnbcmedia3.msn.com

"...mmmh...Zing."
 
2012-04-25 12:47:44 PM

Bontesla: Serious Black: Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

I haven't heard of that book before. It seems really interesting. I'll have to check it out at my local library. Thanks for the tip!

You are welcome. It is probably a decade or three old by now. For anyone interested, it is a social experiment in which the author transforms himself to a black man and then travels around the south. It is quite the journey.


This has a place here.
 
2012-04-25 12:48:10 PM
It's impossible to increase the personhood of an unborn child without decreasing the personhood of a pregnant woman. Anyone denying this is lying or hasn't thought it through.
 
2012-04-25 12:50:01 PM

ciberido: Bontesla: But you cannot possibly assume to know what it would like to be black if you were white. You can take an instance of when you were wronged and try to extrapolate that experience and still be unable to fathom what it was like. The book Black Like Me is a great example to illustrate this point.

It is like saying you can empathize with cancer patients because you once at a cold. While you may share the common experience of feeling ill, you cannot appreciate the amount of illness needed before having the capacity to fully empathize with someone with cancer.


You're taking a valid point to a ridiculous extreme. You're like Diogenes of Sinope claiming that there are no honest men in the world.

Maybe a person who's only had a cold can't emphasize with a someone who's had a cold. But perhaps someone's who has had Typhoid or AIDS could. There are a lot of illnesses in between cancer and a cold.

You're essentially denying that real empathy even exists, and I disagree with that position.


I disagree with your interpretation. I never asserted that real empathy does not exist but that there are degrees to which empathy can be accurate.

Part of not appearing like a jackass involves knowing the degree to which you can extraoplate your life experiences. In other words, it involves admitting your limitations so that your conclusions are both respectful and accurate.
 
2012-04-25 12:52:43 PM

palelizard: I believe it (but 50K for two weeks and he still lost? I need a law degree). But would the costs have been significantly reduced if he'd been battling life in prison instead? I'm not being snarky, just unaware if you get extra appeals for a death sentence.


IANAL, let me make that clear. In Oklahoma there is a 9 (I think) step automatic appeal process. Stafford went through the process and the 9th step (SCOTUS) remanded his case back to a lower court. So he went through most of the appeal process twice. It was a big story around how much his case cost compared to if he would have just received life in prison. But, he was a very bad dude. He killed at least 3 others and was suspected of more. The blood-lust had to be sated at any cost.
 
2012-04-25 12:57:01 PM

TheOnion: Since it excludes anything the pregnant woman or a doctor may do, I guess it is technically ok, but it's like those creationists passing laws preventing the teacher from closing off any discussions in science class. Yeah, on the surface they look nice, but the only point of the law is further an unconstitutional agenda.


The main problem, and this is seen in increasing numbers in the US these days, is laws being passed that are overly broad. It is not enough for prosecutors or lawmakers to claim that "This law wouldn't be used in those circumstances". The fact that it is possible to prosecute these situations as criminal behavior belies the fact that lawmakers are not properly crafting the laws. It is either done to use these laws as deterrent for legal behavior, or just plain laziness on the part of the lawmakers.
 
2012-04-25 01:01:24 PM

Nem Wan: It's impossible to increase the personhood of an unborn child without decreasing the personhood of a pregnant woman. Anyone denying this is lying or hasn't thought it through.


Also, anybody who says "personhood" with a straight face, especially at a high volume and especially regarding human eggs, needs to be beaten with their own limbs.
 
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