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(Yahoo)   Judge finds that Microsoft, who recently sued Google device makers for patent infringement, is infringing on Motorola's, (which is owned by Google) patents with it's Xbox 360. Can we scrap the current system just start over please?   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 40
    More: Obvious, Microsoft, patent infringements, Motorola Mobility, ITC, AT&T, Inc., Joe McDonald, administrative law judge, preliminary ruling  
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1420 clicks; posted to Geek » on 24 Apr 2012 at 10:18 AM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-04-24 10:06:19 AM
The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.
 
2012-04-24 10:22:42 AM
Riche: The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.

Well it's making a lot of people a lot of money - just not the right ones...
 
2012-04-24 10:26:31 AM
They really need to give patents a shelf-life. Make them expire after 5 years (or some random X years). And don't let Disney change that number. And don't let people re-file for the same patent.

Wouldn't make things perfect, but it'd certainly decrease the problems.
 
2012-04-24 10:29:11 AM
denarii.info
 
2012-04-24 10:30:52 AM
Those are 2 BS patent infringments, connectly wirelessly to the internet?! Really! Moving video files? WTF
 
2012-04-24 10:33:44 AM
You know for a fact that any changes politicians made to the patent system would only make things worse. It doesn't even matter if they went into it with the best of intentions, corporate lobbyists would take over the process and present the government with a bill that nobody would bother to read.

The US has some bigger fking problems than the patent system.
 
2012-04-24 10:36:33 AM
Wait until the guy that holds the patent on patents shows up.
 
2012-04-24 10:39:09 AM
HotWingConspiracy: Wait until the guy that holds the patent on patents shows up.

I've patented mentioning the guy who holds patent on patents.

Pay me $500,000 right now or I'll sue you into third-world poverty.
 
2012-04-24 10:42:13 AM
I'm patenting the style of writing which includes commas wherever you want and non-posessive "it's". I'll be rich!
 
2012-04-24 10:46:39 AM
eloquentscience.com
 
2012-04-24 10:56:08 AM
As someone who has seen first hand the amount of money and effort Google, MS, Apple Etc has spent acquiring purely "defensive" patents (having a big book of patents you can say the other guy is violating when he comes after you for violating his) I can say the system is irepairably broken, and the real downfall came when Judges started granting Patent, rather than copyright protection for software and when "business method'patents started applying to the Internet.

Time to lay an axe to the whole twisted structure. If I were king this is what I'd replace it with:

First the time for tech patents needs to be 1/4 or less of a traditional patent. When a hardware cycle is 3 years tops, tech patents particularly on software, should not extend more than 5 at the most.

Second there needs to be an "active implementation/affirmative noice" clause for these kinds of patents, where to keep a patent you show you are, in good faith, trying to make something utilizing your patent, or licensing it to others.

Third, you should also have a duty of notice where you must inform those you believe are infringing on your patent the moment you are aware of their product, NOT years later when they've built a billion dollar business out of it. Failure to do so should result in mandatory licensing of the patent at a statutory rate.

And finally, while I'd prefer to do away with "notional" patents entirely (IE me getting a patent for "travelling interstellarly use a drive that warps space time" even though I haven't the foggiest clue about how to build such a device or even whether it's physically possible) absent that, I would allow an affirmative defense of "We also thought this up on our own" where your "silent" ie non-implemented patent would be voided if the alleged infringer could show that while totally unaware of your patent or method, they thought one up on thier own to do the same thing.
 
2012-04-24 11:11:39 AM
I would just as soon junk/invalidate any patent based on something that software/coding/etc can do that doesn't also include the relevant code in the patent submission.
 
2012-04-24 11:17:28 AM
Riche: The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.

That's because since the tech age it's been expanded to patenting abstractions and ideas as if they were physical machines. You simply can't do that.

Ideas are IP, not inventions. Exact bulk of code can be copywrite, but "A method for swiping an non-physical key on a screen to unlock a digital device" can not, and should not. If Apple can code it one way and Google another, so be it.

And I'm not talking about line by line, since code itself is an abstraction language to do work. You can copywrite a whole sheet of music arranged to make a work, but you can't copywrite it's individual parts that make it up.
 
2012-04-24 11:21:00 AM
Here's a better idea: Do away with lawyers.
 
2012-04-24 11:44:47 AM
HotWingConspiracy: Wait until the guy that holds the patent on patents shows up.

What the guy that holds the patent on patents might look like:
cdn.overclock.net
 
2012-04-24 11:48:46 AM
Riche: The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.

I know. I mean, I'm still stuck with this mid-90s brick-sized cell phone, and having to reboot Windows every four hours due to memory leaks.
 
2012-04-24 11:51:29 AM
Bhruic: They really need to give patents a shelf-life. Make them expire after 5 years (or some random X years). And don't let Disney change that number. And don't let people re-file for the same patent.

Wouldn't make things perfect, but it'd certainly decrease the problems.


How about we let X equal 20 years from the filing date, and we implement a statute (we'll call it 35 USC 101 for funsies) that prevents people from re-filing for the same patent?
 
2012-04-24 11:52:45 AM
Magorn: I would allow an affirmative defense of "We also thought this up on our own" where your "silent" ie non-implemented patent would be voided if the alleged infringer could show that while totally unaware of your patent or method, they thought one up on thier own to do the same thing.

So, get rid of the "prior" requirement in "prior art"?
 
2012-04-24 11:56:21 AM
This particular example is a case of the two sides being too stubborn to settle. They need to do what all the big guys usually do-meet in a room with all their lawyers and a big stack of printouts of all their patents. If the two stacks of paper are around the same height, they need to shake hands and cross license everything in the pile for free.
 
2012-04-24 12:11:15 PM
Theaetetus: Magorn: I would allow an affirmative defense of "We also thought this up on our own" where your "silent" ie non-implemented patent would be voided if the alleged infringer could show that while totally unaware of your patent or method, they thought one up on thier own to do the same thing.

So, get rid of the "prior" requirement in "prior art"?


If somebody can create an item that competes with what yours does then that's called competition which is a necessary part of the free market. Monopolies especially government protected ones should not exist. Software is just fine protected by copyright so they cannot copy yours
 
2012-04-24 12:12:31 PM
Geotpf: This particular example is a case of the two sides being too stubborn to settle. They need to do what all the big guys usually do-meet in a room with all their lawyers and a big stack of printouts of all their patents. If the two stacks of paper are around the same height, they need to shake hands and cross license everything in the pile for free.

Way too much bad blood here. Google bought Motorola because they were pissed at MS for extorting $10/handset from Samsung for every Android device as a "licensing fee" for BS patents MS bought in bulk years ago. After that "rockstar Consortium" mess confirmed to Google that apple and MS were gonna keep playing this game, Google eyed the last giant repository of under-utilized patents in existence and bought them up for "defensive" purposes, so they could sub-license them to any Android maker being sued and allow them to counter sue and force Aplle et al to settle.

Apple and MS are hardware makers who have an interest in keeping hardware prices high to protect thier profits. Google is an Ad company who wnats everyone to have a sub _$50 smart phone so more people will Google things and see thier ads.

Since I want a $49.99 smart phone, I know who I"M rooting for in this
 
2012-04-24 12:15:19 PM
Warlordtrooper: If somebody can create an item that competes with what yours does then that's called competition which is a necessary part of the free market. Monopolies especially government protected ones should not exist. Software is just fine protected by copyright so they cannot copy yours

Copyright is a government protected monopoly.
 
2012-04-24 12:25:53 PM
TNel: Those are 2 BS patent infringments, connectly wirelessly to the internet?! Really! Moving video files? WTF

It's not what it's doing but how it's doing it. Though I agree, most patents are bs.
 
2012-04-24 12:38:54 PM
Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: If somebody can create an item that competes with what yours does then that's called competition which is a necessary part of the free market. Monopolies especially government protected ones should not exist. Software is just fine protected by copyright so they cannot copy yours

Copyright is a government protected monopoly.


Copyright does not prevent competing products. Patents do
 
2012-04-24 12:59:10 PM
Warlordtrooper: Theaetetus: Warlordtrooper: If somebody can create an item that competes with what yours does then that's called competition which is a necessary part of the free market. Monopolies especially government protected ones should not exist. Software is just fine protected by copyright so they cannot copy yours

Copyright is a government protected monopoly.

Copyright does not prevent competing products. Patents do


It does if the competing product infringes the copyright. For example, if I take a copy of Microsoft Word, cross out the title and call it "Theaetetus Writer," my competing product is still going to be blocked due to my copyright infringement.
If I make my own software and don't infringe their copyright, then it's not blocked.

Similarly, if I come up with a different implementation that doesn't infringe their patent, my competing product won't be blocked.
 
2012-04-24 01:15:15 PM
Theaetetus: Riche: The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.

I know. I mean, I'm still stuck with this mid-90s brick-sized cell phone, and having to reboot Windows every four hours due to memory leaks.


So there's been progress despite patents? I'll make sure to let the R&D departments that could have used the money from these multi-million dollar patent deals know. I mean, it's not like they could have progressed the sciences or Arts with that money.
 
2012-04-24 01:25:08 PM
Theaetetus: Riche: The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.

I know. I mean, I'm still stuck with this mid-90s brick-sized cell phone, and having to reboot Windows every four hours due to memory leaks.


** sigh **

Help me out fellow Farkers. Is this guy a troll or just belligerent and stupid? I can't tell anymore.
 
2012-04-24 01:35:49 PM
Riche: Theaetetus: Riche: The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.

I know. I mean, I'm still stuck with this mid-90s brick-sized cell phone, and having to reboot Windows every four hours due to memory leaks.

** sigh **

Help me out fellow Farkers. Is this guy a troll or just belligerent and stupid? I can't tell anymore.


I'm sorry if the sarcasm was too confusing for you. Allow me to explain...
If the patent system is discouraging innovation, then shouldn't we see evidence of a decline in the rate of innovation? Anecdotes about "I know a guy who knows a guy who had a really great idea, but he never bothered doing it because he was afraid of patent infringement" aside, there should be some objectively measurable statistics, no?
 
2012-04-24 01:51:13 PM
So Motorola was like,

Yo dawg, u infringing on our patents. Wanna settle?

And Microsoft was like,

i.imgur.com

But, um, no. Nothing was not acceptable.
 
2012-04-24 02:24:11 PM
Theaetetus: there should be some objectively measurable statistics, no?

Whilst I agree that there should be such things, I do have to point out that the abscence of data does not prove it is not happening. Simply if it is happening then projects are being canned whilst still in the lab. Or not.

It does however seem that these mega corps getting snotty with each other does very little to reinforce their, individual, claims of "innovating". Of course we should quite probably ask them what, exactly, are they innovating? I suspect the answer is "new ways to abuse the patent system".
 
2012-04-24 02:39:15 PM
Vaneshi: Theaetetus: there should be some objectively measurable statistics, no?

Whilst I agree that there should be such things, I do have to point out that the abscence of data does not prove it is not happening. Simply if it is happening then projects are being canned whilst still in the lab. Or not.


Agreed... The absence of any evidence is not evidence that it doesn't exist. All it does is make declarations like "the patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent" unsupported and premature.

It does however seem that these mega corps getting snotty with each other does very little to reinforce their, individual, claims of "innovating". Of course we should quite probably ask them what, exactly, are they innovating? I suspect the answer is "new ways to abuse the patent system".

I suspect the answer would more likely involve Windows 8, Google Glasses, retina displays, new 3D UIs with head tracking, etc., etc.
 
2012-04-24 02:39:51 PM
Warlordtrooper: If somebody can create an item that competes with what yours does then that's called competition

If the R&D process for my amazing product consisted of 10 years of research and experimentation, and the R&D process for your product consisted of buying my product and spending 1 year finding a way to replicate it, that's not very fair to me, is it? Your costs were 10 times lower than mine, so you'll be able to undercut me on price and/or make more profit per unit.

How likely would I be to go back and spend another 10 years creating another amazing product after that?
 
2012-04-24 03:57:44 PM
poot_rootbeer: Warlordtrooper: If somebody can create an item that competes with what yours does then that's called competition

If the R&D process for my amazing product consisted of 10 years of research and experimentation, and the R&D process for your product consisted of buying my product and spending 1 year finding a way to replicate it, that's not very fair to me, is it? Your costs were 10 times lower than mine, so you'll be able to undercut me on price and/or make more profit per unit.

How likely would I be to go back and spend another 10 years creating another amazing product after that?


That is a BS argument. The basic truth is that once a good product is out there someone will be trying to figure out a way to copy it or make it look like it does. Look at all the wonderful fakes from China. Even if they're prevented from making it here, they'd just go somewhere else to make it.

Patent protection in its current form doesn't do fark all to protect anything. It is merely a lawsuit intimidation weapon.

I've got my own project I've been working on for over 20 years now and I guarantee that if it ever suddenly became "hot" it'd be copied within a few years (and more likely less, much less).
 
2012-04-24 04:23:06 PM
amoses7178: That is a BS argument. The basic truth is that once a good product is out there someone will be trying to figure out a way to copy it or make it look like it does. Look at all the wonderful fakes from China. Even if they're prevented from making it here, they'd just go somewhere else to make it.

Patents also prevent sales here and importation into the country. You can make the stuff in China all you want and if you can't import it, you're still locked out of the market.
 
2012-04-24 04:32:37 PM
And then Western Union lost the patent fight to American Bell, and we all had to rent phones from Bell for a century.

/All of this has happened before.
 
2012-04-24 06:27:44 PM
Riche: The patent system as it works today seems to be accomplishing the exact opposite of its original intent.

Who knew that a system enacted at a time when people could not even fathom computer technology, and when ideas took years to travel around the globe, would be completely ineffective in terms of modern tech?

Yeah, they have to come up with a completely different scheme for this stuff. Most of these patents are bullsh*t, and it's gotten to where a small time programmer craps his pants (or at least he should should) every time he tries to enact a new idea, for fear that some dick has patented it as a concept.

It would be like telling little Timmy to be careful what he builds with his Legos. Apple or Sony might already have the patent...

As you say, the system as it is working now is achieving, and being leveraged for, the exact opposite of its intention.

/patent programming languages
//don't patent what they are used to produce
///or at least make it a short-ass patent
////or a short ass-patent
 
2012-04-24 06:30:58 PM
AcademGreen: And then Western Union lost the patent fight to American Bell, and we all had to rent phones from Bell for a century.

/All of this has happened before.


Except that many of the modern patents are the equivalent of if they allowed food combination patents.

"Peanut butter? OK. Chocolate? OK. Mixing chocolate AND peanut butter? ZOMG that's Reese's IP!!!1!11!!!!"
 
2012-04-24 07:01:59 PM
SacriliciousBeerSwiller: if they allowed food combination patents

... got news for you...
 
2012-04-25 06:36:51 PM
Theaetetus: I'm sorry if the sarcasm was too confusing for you. Allow me to explain...
If the patent system is discouraging innovation, then shouldn't we see evidence of a decline in the rate of innovation? Anecdotes about "I know a guy who knows a guy who had a really great idea, but he never bothered doing it because he was afraid of patent infringement" aside, there should be some objectively measurable statistics, no?




OK, Belligerent and stupid it is.
 
2012-04-25 07:46:03 PM
Theaetetus:
I suspect the answer would more likely involve Windows 8, Google Glasses, retina displays, new 3D UIs with head tracking, etc., etc.


Does Windows 8 really do anything new? I don't mean UI or 'they changed where Add/Remove Programs is again'. The Google Glasses were done in the 90's to one degree or another, I remember a kids TV program where the little darlings were running around with glasses that had a small LCD screen & camera attached to them (true it was fed by a huge cable and a backpack but).

I just don't see the "wow, that's new" that's happened before happening now. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place, couldn't say.
 
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