ZeroCorpse: Actually, it's made pretty clear in the first book that Robb and his full-blood siblings look like members of the Tully family, and there's not much of Ned's looks in them. The only child who actually looks like a Stark is Jon Snow, much to Catelyn's chagrin.

The quoted text is referring to why Renly is popular. He looks like his older brother Robert when he was the conquering hero (and not fat old drunk.) Not Ned Stark.

ZeroCorpse: Digitalstrange:
He is charming, easygoing, good with people and the spitting image or Robert when he was young and strapping. As I have noted he is a smart and fair ruler. He essentially is a younger Ned without the crippling honor. All of this is in the books though.

Actually, it's made pretty clear in the first book that Robb and his full-blood siblings look like members of the Tully family, and there's not much of Ned's looks in them. The only child who actually looks like a Stark is Jon Snow, much to Catelyn's chagrin.

He's talking about Renly Baratheon, not the Stark family.

tlchwi02: ZeroCorpse: Actually, it's made pretty clear in the first book that Robb and his full-blood siblings look like members of the Tully family, and there's not much of Ned's looks in them. The only child who actually looks like a Stark is Jon Snow, much to Catelyn's chagrin.

The quoted text is referring to why Renly is popular. He looks like his older brother Robert when he was the conquering hero (and not fat old drunk.) Not Ned Stark.

Dammit.

Tax Boy:
//unless we're going to get a dog-headed zombie Robb. which would be AWESOME!

You are partially correct :)

Arya has a dream in which she tries to get to her mother, but is barred from reaching her by a dog-headed man.

Nice to see Robb's still looking out for her!

ZeroCorpse: TheHopeDiamond: ZeroCorpse: Or that Gillian Anderson wasn't as tall as the character she played in X-Files?!?

What? They never hid her being short - they even make jokes about her not being able to reach the gas pedal in one episode.

Here. Read up.

Then they did a terrible job lol

ZeroCorpse: Digitalstrange:
He is charming, easygoing, good with people and the spitting image or Robert when he was young and strapping. As I have noted he is a smart and fair ruler. He essentially is a younger Ned without the crippling honor. All of this is in the books though.

Actually, it's made pretty clear in the first book that Robb and his full-blood siblings look like members of the Tully family, and there's not much of Ned's looks in them. The only child who actually looks like a Stark is Jon Snow, much to Catelyn's chagrin.

I thought Arya had the Stark look. Ned even mentions something about her resembling his sister Lyanna.

Persnickety: ZeroCorpse: Digitalstrange:
He is charming, easygoing, good with people and the spitting image or Robert when he was young and strapping. As I have noted he is a smart and fair ruler. He essentially is a younger Ned without the crippling honor. All of this is in the books though.

Actually, it's made pretty clear in the first book that Robb and his full-blood siblings look like members of the Tully family, and there's not much of Ned's looks in them. The only child who actually looks like a Stark is Jon Snow, much to Catelyn's chagrin.

I thought Arya had the Stark look. Ned even mentions something about her resembling his sister Lyanna.

You are correct. Grey eyes and everything.

Nick Spiceyweiner: Agreed, think they even mention that is part of his motivation, to make him look better to the fence sitters. And yeah, he is gay in the books too, just never a chapter from his perspective to actually show him and Loras doing it, where as on the show they kind of have to put him on screen or things would get way more confusing for people.

I remember when Jamie and Brienne enter Kings Landing and meet Loras Tyrell, he orders Loras to back off from Brienne with a quote like, "...or I'll stick this sword in places even Renly couldn't find."

mongbiohazard: To be fair... It IS a land with magic in it. Magic isn't a sufficient explanation in our world, because magic isn't real here. But in a world where magic is real that is actually a sufficient explanation. They don't have to have a funky orbit, they could simply have a magical explanation. Much of magic already defies the laws of thermodynamics.

Cymbal: It could very well be magic, but I always interpreted their seasons being more or less like Earth's ice ages, only not nearly as long and maybe not as severe.

Honestly, "it's magic" works just fine for me. It was an off-the-cuff comment I'm rather regretting at this point.

That said, there is something about the plot progression that bothers me, and I'm not the only one to notice it -- however the fark the seasons work, Westeros' adjustments to this unique climate are non-existent. Frankly it's damn hard to make food last for even several months, let alone several years. Prior to canning or refrigeration, salt was of such strategic importance that nations went to war to control the stuff -- to emphasize, I'm talking bloodshed over food preservatives on a planet with 3-4 month winters. Even if there was some way to magically preserve food it would take an insane amount of stockpiling to survive unless some sort of unmentioned magical crop grows through the winter -- in which case that's the resource you march to war for, not some power trip. Instead, what, the world's dominated by a bunch of remorseless sadists and clueless ideologues dithering with some last-minute warring before the onset of winter?

Again, I'm not going to be overly critical on the scientific aspects of a fantasy world. I'm not that sort of geek, but GRRM's epic is historically inspired. If this "long winter" is going to be of any significance, the people aren't handling it in any way that makes a lick of sense. Which could be the point, and maybe even realistic -- he's clearly not shy about exposing the folly and cruelty of man -- but it's hard to care about what happens next when everything's marching relentlessly toward complete Evangelion-style annihilation. If you're not one of a select bulletproof few, actually giving a shiat about others is basically a kiss of death in his world. We've already got over a million words invested in just how farked up this world is and the darkest chapters of this epic have yet to be published. If there was any last chance to ignite an unquenchable hope in readers not blindly loyal to his name to carry them through the darkest chapters of his story, all indications are he's still a couple books away yet already a couple books too late.

dragonchild: mongbiohazard: Winter winter winter, blah blah blah

It's pretty clear from the books that even in Westeros, there are parts that don't get as cold in winter as the rest of the continent. Dorne, for example.

Between that and the comparatively warmer eastern continent (there hasn't been any snow or talk of winter AT ALL in any of the Dany or Arya chapters) and the "Summer Isles", there's probably a lot of food trade that goes on from the warmer areas to the colder climes. At probably high prices, but so it goes.

I'm pretty sure that in GoT there's talk at the small council that Kings Landing had enough food storage already to last for 5-6 years. It's probably an ingrained habit for everyone to set aside 10% or so of harvests each year into storage in preparation for winter.

Presumably the cows, pigs, etc. have adapted somewhat to the world's ecosystem and can handle less feed.

Plus, during winter you don't really have to worry about your food stores spoiling.

So if it weren't for the war burning out the last of the harvest (and any storage in the villages they plunder), probably the population was somewhat well prepared.

/it's just a tv show, you really should relax

I haven't read them, but I thought in the books, Arya had everyone fooled into thinking that she's a boy, but in the show 2 characters have called her out on the fact that she's actually a boy. Is that what happens in the books?

dragonchild: mongbiohazard: To be fair... It IS a land with magic in it. Magic isn't a sufficient explanation in our world, because magic isn't real here. But in a world where magic is real that is actually a sufficient explanation. They don't have to have a funky orbit, they could simply have a magical explanation. Much of magic already defies the laws of thermodynamics.

Cymbal: It could very well be magic, but I always interpreted their seasons being more or less like Earth's ice ages, only not nearly as long and maybe not as severe.

Honestly, "it's magic" works just fine for me. It was an off-the-cuff comment I'm rather regretting at this point.

That said, there is something about the plot progression that bothers me, and I'm not the only one to notice it -- however the fark the seasons work, Westeros' adjustments to this unique climate are non-existent. Frankly it's damn hard to make food last for even several months, let alone several years. Prior to canning or refrigeration, salt was of such strategic importance that nations went to war to control the stuff -- to emphasize, I'm talking bloodshed over food preservatives on a planet with 3-4 month winters. Even if there was some way to magically preserve food it would take an insane amount of stockpiling to survive unless some sort of unmentioned magical crop grows through the winter -- in which case that's the resource you march to war for, not some power trip. Instead, what, the world's dominated by a bunch of remorseless sadists and clueless ideologues dithering with some last-minute warring before the onset of winter?

Again, I'm not going to be overly critical on the scientific aspects of a fantasy world. I'm not that sort of geek, but GRRM's epic is historically inspired. If this "long winter" is going to be of any significance, the people aren't handling it in any way that makes a lick of sense. Which could be the point, and maybe even realistic -- he's clearly not shy about exposing the folly and cruelty o ...

I know there is mention (I think) at the Nights Watch that they have enough food for five years of winter, but if it goes on any longer they are going to be in some trouble. Also, since they are in the north, I remember them storing their food in the ice cells, since thats bascially a refridgerator or something like that.

Dr J Zoidberg: I haven't read them, but I thought in the books, Arya had everyone fooled into thinking that she's a boy, but in the show 2 characters have called her out on the fact that she's actually a boy girl. Is that what happens in the books?

FTFM

Dr J Zoidberg: Dr J Zoidberg: I haven't read them, but I thought in the books, Arya had everyone fooled into thinking that she's a boy, but in the show 2 characters have called her out on the fact that she's actually a boy girl. Is that what happens in the books?

FTFM

yeah, she starts getting girly again (well, girly for Arya) at Harrenhall.

Tax Boy: Dr J Zoidberg: Dr J Zoidberg: I haven't read them, but I thought in the books, Arya had everyone fooled into thinking that she's a boy, but in the show 2 characters have called her out on the fact that she's actually a boy girl. Is that what happens in the books?

FTFM

yeah, she starts getting girly again (well, girly for Arya) at Harrenhall.

Yeah, her part is a little longer in the book, takes til near the end of this season for her to get to harrenhal in the book. Gendry calls her out pretty much like in the show though, and so he knew from then on.

dragonchild: mongbiohazard: To be fair... It IS a land with magic in it. Magic isn't a sufficient explanation in our world, because magic isn't real here. But in a world where magic is real that is actually a sufficient explanation. They don't have to have a funky orbit, they could simply have a magical explanation. Much of magic already defies the laws of thermodynamics.

Cymbal: It could very well be magic, but I always interpreted their seasons being more or less like Earth's ice ages, only not nearly as long and maybe not as severe.

Honestly, "it's magic" works just fine for me. It was an off-the-cuff comment I'm rather regretting at this point.

That said, there is something about the plot progression that bothers me, and I'm not the only one to notice it -- however the fark the seasons work, Westeros' adjustments to this unique climate are non-existent. Frankly it's damn hard to make food last for even several months, let alone several years. Prior to canning or refrigeration, salt was of such strategic importance that nations went to war to control the stuff -- to emphasize, I'm talking bloodshed over food preservatives on a planet with 3-4 month winters. Even if there was some way to magically preserve food it would take an insane amount of stockpiling to survive unless some sort of unmentioned magical crop grows through the winter -- in which case that's the resource you march to war for, not some power trip. Instead, what, the world's dominated by a bunch of remorseless sadists and clueless ideologues dithering with some last-minute warring before the onset of winter?

Again, I'm not going to be overly critical on the scientific aspects of a fantasy world. I'm not that sort of geek, but GRRM's epic is historically inspired. If this "long winter" is going to be of any significance, the people aren't handling it in any way that makes a lick of sense. Which could be the point, and maybe even realistic -- he's clearly not shy about exposing the folly and cruelty o ...

Your argument only makes sense if you think the entire world will be blanketed in snow every time Winter rolls around, killing most/all vegetation like a nuclear winter. I really don't think that is how their Winters work. Again, if their seasons are more like Earth's ice ages, Humans, as well as other species have found ways to survive them whether through migration or trading with warmer climate civilizations.

Yeah they just sped up the process of her disguise falling apart because one, the story does drag on a bit in the books; and two, it's pretty difficult to act around the fact that she's getting less boyish by the hour it seems lol

Skyrmion: Nick Spiceyweiner: Agreed, think they even mention that is part of his motivation, to make him look better to the fence sitters. And yeah, he is gay in the books too, just never a chapter from his perspective to actually show him and Loras doing it, where as on the show they kind of have to put him on screen or things would get way more confusing for people.

I remember when Jamie and Brienne enter Kings Landing and meet Loras Tyrell, he orders Loras to back off from Brienne with a quote like, "...or I'll stick this sword in places even Renly couldn't find."

Yep, forgot that one. Lot of people are kind of slow though, and unless it directly said "here is renly and loras having wild gay sex", then they thought he wasn't supposed to be gay.

Nick Spiceyweiner: Tax Boy: Dr J Zoidberg: Dr J Zoidberg: I haven't read them, but I thought in the books, Arya had everyone fooled into thinking that she's a boy, but in the show 2 characters have called her out on the fact that she's actually a boy girl. Is that what happens in the books?

FTFM

yeah, she starts getting girly again (well, girly for Arya) at Harrenhall.

Yeah, her part is a little longer in the book, takes til near the end of this season for her to get to harrenhal in the book. Gendry calls her out pretty much like in the show though, and so he knew from then on.

I was wondering because Tywin just saw her once and knew she was a girl

Cymbal: dragonchild: mongbiohazard: To be fair... It IS a land with magic in it. Magic isn't a sufficient explanation in our world, because magic isn't real here. But in a world where magic is real that is actually a sufficient explanation. They don't have to have a funky orbit, they could simply have a magical explanation. Much of magic already defies the laws of thermodynamics.

Cymbal: It could very well be magic, but I always interpreted their seasons being more or less like Earth's ice ages, only not nearly as long and maybe not as severe.

Honestly, "it's magic" works just fine for me. It was an off-the-cuff comment I'm rather regretting at this point.

That said, there is something about the plot progression that bothers me, and I'm not the only one to notice it -- however the fark the seasons work, Westeros' adjustments to this unique climate are non-existent. Frankly it's damn hard to make food last for even several months, let alone several years. Prior to canning or refrigeration, salt was of such strategic importance that nations went to war to control the stuff -- to emphasize, I'm talking bloodshed over food preservatives on a planet with 3-4 month winters. Even if there was some way to magically preserve food it would take an insane amount of stockpiling to survive unless some sort of unmentioned magical crop grows through the winter -- in which case that's the resource you march to war for, not some power trip. Instead, what, the world's dominated by a bunch of remorseless sadists and clueless ideologues dithering with some last-minute warring before the onset of winter?

Again, I'm not going to be overly critical on the scientific aspects of a fantasy world. I'm not that sort of geek, but GRRM's epic is historically inspired. If this "long winter" is going to be of any significance, the people aren't handling it in any way that makes a lick of sense. Which could be the point, and maybe even realistic -- he's clearly not shy about exposing the folly ...

There was also the mention that Winterfell had hot springs that piped through the walls and a massive greenhouse to continue growing food throughout winter. With the greenhouse being destroyed and the walls of winterfell cracked open, I'd hate to be anyone in the North with the winter that is approaching, I have the feeling the Neck will be the bulkwark where the walkers are held.

Tax Boy: narcoleptic: Jon is 'in' Ghost. See Bran's first dream, Mel's vision in DWD, DWD's prologue, and probably the same thing happening w/ Robb at the Red Wedding.

They killed Robb's doggie too, cut its head off, and sewed it on Robb's headless body.

/yeah, Robb's pretty dead.
//unless we're going to get a dog-headed zombie Robb. which would be AWESOME!

Spoilers:


Yea, he's very dead. I was referring to just before Robb is killed he confusingly says "Grey Wind". Presumably, Grey Wind then goes ape-shiat just after this point, taking several arrows before going down. Since all other Stark children (sans Sansa) show warg abilities, Robb probably was warging as Grey Wind before he was killed. Similarly, Jon says "Ghost" while he was stabbed. He also "never felt" the fourth cut.



.

Dr J Zoidberg: I haven't read them, but I thought in the books, Arya had everyone fooled into thinking that she's a boy, but in the show 2 characters have called her out on the fact that she's actually a boy. Is that what happens in the books?

IIRC the conversation with Gendry happens pretty much as it does in the books, but when they're captured, the captors aren't about to let her go off to urinate in the bushes, so her gender is revealed to everyone at that point. She doesn't meet Tywin Lannister either, although he is mentioned to be in Harrenhal at the time.

dragonchild: That said, there is something about the plot progression that bothers me, and I'm not the only one to notice it -- however the fark the seasons work, Westeros' adjustments to this unique climate are non-existent. Frankly it's damn hard to make food last for even several months, let alone several years.

Yes, I like the books, but from the beginning just about every discussion of climate, logistics, and food supply is as facepalm-worthy as melting gold in a soup pot. It's one of those things GRRM just didn't put a lot of thought into. And his attempts to patch over it in recent books are just as funny as the original plot holes. I think in DwD there's a part where Jon barters food to last the winter (i.e. five+ years of food for all the watch and wildlings) for some relatively minor favor.

I am just looking forward to the 5th book being filmed, so I can have an actor playing Daario to HATE with a passion.

Seriously. Hate him more than Jeoffrey.

Tax Boy: I'm pretty sure that in GoT there's talk at the small council that Kings Landing had enough food storage already to last for 5-6 years. It's probably an ingrained habit for everyone to set aside 10% or so of harvests each year into storage in preparation for winter. . . Plus, during winter you don't really have to worry about your food stores spoiling.

The problem isn't food spoiling during the winter; it's food spoiling before the winter. You can't just set aside food each year unless you have a means of keeping the stuff edible through "years" of autumn. Which is why nations went to war over salt. Often people would run out of the preservative before they ran out of surplus food, and the winter implications were just as serious. Again, this isn't something that'd bother me in a generic fantasy saga that didn't have a multi-year winter to deal with, or pulp fantasy tripe. GRRM gives other aspects of his world a lot of attention to detail, so this kinda rankles.

Tax Boy: So if it weren't for the war burning out the last of the harvest (and any storage in the villages they plunder), probably the population was somewhat well prepared.

That's kind of the point I'm getting at. I'm not assuming winter preparations are non-existent, per se (yes I said so, but I was being flippant). . . GRRM isn't dedicating entire chapters to "how people did basic shiat". Again, this is fine. Thing is, I figure that multi-year winter is tough to survive without the plot getting in the way. Except Westeros is gettin' more war on in a short span of time than the bloodiest years of feudal Europe -- and it's not getting better at the worst possible moment. A winter following war on Earth is bad enough, but a mini-Ice Age following wholesale slaughter with all the meaningful protagonists a good deal away of getting any momentum going? I think that's why the epic is starting to lose readers -- GRRM is forcing them to choose between hope and suspension of disbelief.

Cymbal: Your argument only makes sense if you think the entire world will be blanketed in snow every time Winter rolls around, killing most/all vegetation like a nuclear winter. I really don't think that is how their Winters work. Again, if their seasons are more like Earth's ice ages, Humans, as well as other species have found ways to survive them whether through migration or trading with warmer climate civilizations.

That's an apt point, which does make things seem somewhat more optimistic than a deep freeze. Except you do realize that just because a species didn't go extinct during an ice age doesn't mean it didn't kill off a good deal of them, right? And we can't exactly have the protagonists lead the people of Westeros right off the stage in a mass migration without betraying some long-established expectations that Westeros is where they'll make their stand. So with all the rape, pillage, slaughter, destruction and rape goin' on, you get the feeling Westeros should be utterly farked without some serious deus ex machina that would trivialize all the depressing shiat that's built up so far. For starters, I imagine it won't be easy growing crops during an ice age AND a zombie invasion happening at the same time.

Skyrmion: I think in DwD there's a part where Jon barters food to last the winter (i.e. five+ years of food for all the watch and wildlings) for some relatively minor favor.

I wish my fetch quests in video games were that easy.

Cymbal: She comes in colors everywhere: legion_of_doo: The imp may ride the dragon, though I think jon will be the one to marry her.

Okay, okay.

Spoilers and speculation

Have the whiners gone?

I don't think Danaerys is going to ever claim the throne. She is the mother of dragons, but we have 3 others with Targaryen blood (arguably) who will be the riders. I'm guessing Dany dies at some point, and the other three will ride the dragons and unite Westeros (or fight amongst themselves in a final battle).

We all know the theories on Jon's parentage.

Tyrion is looking the same way, since the last book, and GRRM hinted at it as early as Tyrion's first conversation with Jon at the feast in Winterfell at the beginning of Book 1. (This also absolves Tyrion of the unforgivable crime of patricide, since Tywin isn't actually his father.)

And as of the end of Book 5, we have a new Targaryen running amok in Westeros, who seems to be the real deal.

That's three, and we have three dragons. And, as many have pointed out, Dany isn't really fit to rule. She is fit to be the mother of dragons, but not the dragon herself...

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

Jon definitely could be Targaryen. But Tyrion is a Lannister, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Also, I think it's far more likely...

SPOILERS

...that Aegon is the mummer's dragon, ie not a targaryen but dressed up and raised as one by varys/illyrio. he may not even know it, since he's clearly been groomed for it since birth, but all the dreams dany has pointing to fake dragons leads me to believe that if anyone's a fake, it's him.

i also agree that tyrion is a lannister. there's far too much of tywin in him for grrm to just be all like 'oh no, the other dude is his dad lols never mind his character'.

but i do think he rides a dragon in the end, so i'm all over the place, i guess.

Sooo I read that longass article only to find out the entire thesis for the atrocity doesn't really matter?

RedEyedWings: Cymbal: She comes in colors everywhere: legion_of_doo: The imp may ride the dragon, though I think jon will be the one to marry her.


snip

i also agree that tyrion is a lannister. there's far too much of tywin in him for grrm to just be all like 'oh no, the other dude is his dad lols never mind his character'.

but i do think he rides a dragon in the end, so i'm all over the place, i guess.

Probably because Tywin raised him. Consider that Tyrion has mismatched eyes, one like Tywin/Jamie/Cersie, the other is described like Egg's (Dany's great grandfather) from the Dunk and Egg tales. Tyrion's mother was also a Lannister, 2nd cousin to Tywin IIRC. Barristan's recount of the Mad King and Tywin is very interesting. His mother could have passed on the more dominate Lannister traits, but ended he up with a Targaryen eye. Although it may be a red herring, if Tyrion is Dany's half brother, and Jon her nephew, you have the three heads of the dragon. I'm really only skeptical because it's too obvious for Martin.

narcoleptic: RedEyedWings: Cymbal: She comes in colors everywhere: legion_of_doo: The imp may ride the dragon, though I think jon will be the one to marry her.


snip

i also agree that tyrion is a lannister. there's far too much of tywin in him for grrm to just be all like 'oh no, the other dude is his dad lols never mind his character'.

but i do think he rides a dragon in the end, so i'm all over the place, i guess.

Probably because Tywin raised him. Consider that Tyrion has mismatched eyes, one like Tywin/Jamie/Cersie, the other is described like Egg's (Dany's great grandfather) from the Dunk and Egg tales. Tyrion's mother was also a Lannister, 2nd cousin to Tywin IIRC. Barristan's recount of the Mad King and Tywin is very interesting. His mother could have passed on the more dominate Lannister traits, but ended he up with a Targaryen eye. Although it may be a red herring, if Tyrion is Dany's half brother, and Jon her nephew, you have the three heads of the dragon. I'm really only skeptical because it's too obvious for Martin.

I say Martin gave it to us the very first time we meet Tyrion in GoT:

"You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."
"Am I? Do tell my Lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he's never been sure."

Didn't read this thread aside from the humorous pics, just wanted to say that there's something absurdly hot about Natalie Dormer.

Adalius: kab: Didn't read this thread aside from the humorous pics, just wanted to say that there's something absurdly hot about Natalie Dormer.

Yea, there's something exotic about how she talks out the side of her mouth like she had a stroke. Gets my motor running.

/Don't mind me, I'll be hanging out over here by the old folks home.

You should see her as Anne Boleyn in the Showtime series The Tudors...